Chevrolet News:2016 Chevrolet Malibu To Start At $22,500, Arriving At Dealers In A Few Weeks

[hyperv6]

 

 

I'm sorry, are you really trying to insult me because of my profession??

Well so you are not the wash boy?

To be honest I really did not know what you did nor really care. You have taken your shots too and I just return in kind. If I wanted to hurt your feeling I would have said something bad about your mother.

I normally keep things on the respectful level till the other person stops being respectful in kind. I can disagree and get along with most people but when they start like you have here I really don't care anymore.

First thing you need to do is not judge the new car with the past. The past has many issue that do not pertain to the new car. H

second Honda and Toyota have a happy fan base and it will only take time and better product to over come that. Better product we have coming and time will just take that time.

As for under powered? Till you drive the car you had better not pass judgment on what you have no clue of. You think you can really notice 7 FT LBS? This is what you feel and what moves the car from a stop not as much HP. You mechanical aptitude side does correlate with a Salesman.

The truth is todays Malibu that is coming will be as good as any car in the segment. Changing minds takes time and not much anyone can do with that. While you may not be able to sell a Malibu many people must be able as there are a ton of them on the road.

With the way you think I can see why you can't sell one. Judgmental Pessimism of a product does not lend to being a good salesman of a product.

Edited September 14, 2015 by hyperv6

[hyperv6]

If Chevy wants better resale value they should offer 5 year/50k mile bumper to bumper warranty and 10 year/100k mile powertain warranty that are transferable. So that the 2nd or 3rd owner of the car could still have factory warranty. That would make the used cars more desirable and push up resale. GM or Ford still lose the reliability battle against Honda and Toyota in the mind of the consumer.

Sorry but it is already proven by more than one company the long warranties mean little. Most of these cars will go 100K miles and 10 years with no issues other than a TPM in a wheel or regular use items like brakes etc.

Now if you have a car like Chrysler who is well known for many issues in the first couple years and suspect transmissions the first 50K miles and lower prices are the only way to attract people to take a chance.

GM cars have always made good second hand cars as they generally do not need things like timing belts or have transmission or engine issues. Many will go on and on. Just look around how many Grand Am's even in the rust belt are still on the road vs. old Honda's that needed more maintenance than the car was worth.

My Co worker drive a long way daily and just turned 300K on his Grand Am. There paint is even still pretty good.

[surreal1272]

This discussion would go a lot further if people would just stop passing off their feelings as fact. Wait until the car comes out and is test driven. Then state your feelings. This is one thing I hate about upcoming cars. They bring out all these feelings and speculations that really mean diddly squat, in the grand scheme of things.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

So as I spent another 4 hours today sitting through yet another powertrain development workshop on one of our workhorse engines, that is primarily trying to improve fuel economy by 4-5% for a 2018 launch......I am amazed at the amount of effort and engineering compromises, etc. needed to achieve those goals.  I know we all expect and desire more hp and torque and better 0-60, etc. but that is typically in direct conflict with achieving these strict mandated CAFE goals. 

 

My point, automakers are doing the best they can to achieve many goals, some of which are simply less appreciated or not noticed.

[smk4565]

Malibu should have had 200 hp and 40 mpg standard.  A 1.5 turbo is going to scare away more people than it attracts. 

[surreal1272]

Malibu should have had 200 hp and 40 mpg standard.  A 1.5 turbo is going to scare away more people than it attracts. 

No base model mid size car starts at 200 HP.

[smk4565]

 

Malibu should have had 200 hp and 40 mpg standard.  A 1.5 turbo is going to scare away more people than it attracts. 

No base model mid size car starts at 200 HP.

 

Which is why the Malibu should have.  It would be #1.

[hyperv6]

So as I spent another 4 hours today sitting through yet another powertrain development workshop on one of our workhorse engines, that is primarily trying to improve fuel economy by 4-5% for a 2018 launch......I am amazed at the amount of effort and engineering compromises, etc. needed to achieve those goals.  I know we all expect and desire more hp and torque and better 0-60, etc. but that is typically in direct conflict with achieving these strict mandated CAFE goals. 

 

My point, automakers are doing the best they can to achieve many goals, some of which are simply less appreciated or not noticed.

The future is all about doing more with less.

To be honest it is amazing what some of these little engines can do. DI loves Turbocharging and the fact the MFGs. have stepped up to do these right this time has fixed much of the durability issues along with synthetic oils.

If we want cars of sizes larger than a Spark we will have to continue to made the engines smaller and car lighter. Contrary to popular belief you can not carry the V8 on forever as there are only so many cylinders you can cut out.

The combination of lower torque range in the turbo engine along with the new transmissions and gearing have made come very compelling combinations. Today we have a Camaro that will run 14 flat on only 275 HP and 4 cylinders. Most SS models in the past in stock form would struggle to meet this number. We remember the Zl1 and LS6 but the fact is most performance cars were 14 second cars back then.

The only thing that sucks on these small engines is they are difficult to make a good sound with. Few have a good sound with 4 and only a few V6 models sound right too. 60 Degree engines do have a decent sound but the 90's degrees just never got it done sound wise.

The bottom line is these small engines are here and we just have to learn to live with them. The MFG are doing a good job packing them with lighter platforms and proper suspensions and drive lines to take advantage of their strengths and dampen their weaknesses.

Note too as with mine the EPA numbers are easily beaten even driving it like I stole it. I noted this also on other Eco turbo cars as the numbers are normally surpassed. Not sure if that will be the case here but it might be something to watch for.

The torque is what catches so many people by surprise as they have no concept of high torque Many of these engines make more torque than HP and that is not what most people are used to. They also do not understand torque is what you feel in an engine not so much the HP.

[surreal1272]

 

 

Malibu should have had 200 hp and 40 mpg standard.  A 1.5 turbo is going to scare away more people than it attracts. 

No base model mid size car starts at 200 HP.

 

Which is why the Malibu should have.  It would be #1.

 

It's going to be 300 lbs. lighter. That's a much bigger deal than some extra HP.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

I have driven a 1.5L Fusion many times.  I currently lease a 2.0L GTDI.

The 1.5L is similar if not less in specs than the Malibu and turbo is sized to spool up quickly for good driveability and you swear it has more power than the numbers advertise. I would expect similar from the GM engine and is more than enough power for most.

 

 

The fundamental physics involved with achieving higher mpg's is pretty simple.  Less displacement.  Hitting that extra 1/2 mpg is no easy task, and achieving more power while trying to hit it, is not really attainable.  Not without breaking the engineering budget 2 fold, or more.....if at all.

 

Meh.  GM knows which side of the bread is buttered.  They are doing it right.  

There will always be those who think they know better.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Wings4Life

[smk4565]

I love how GM will put a 1.5 liter engine in the Malibu in the name of CAFE, yet the Silverado still has a 5.3 liter V8.  When will we still a 2.5 liter turbo 4 as the base Silverado engine? 

[ccap41]

I love how GM will put a 1.5 liter engine in the Malibu in the name of CAFE, yet the Silverado still has a 5.3 liter V8.  When will we still a 2.5 liter turbo 4 as the base Silverado engine?

Probably around the same time the f150 throws their 2.3 in theirs. I mean power output surpasses the base n/a 3.5 already.. I think they both need to lose a little bit more weight or somehow reduce rolling resistance be it aero, less drivetrain loss, weight, etc.

[Suaviloquent]

 

The fact is most people are not really wanting to stand out.

They want a car they can afford.

They want a car that is reliable.

They want a car with many features that is still affordable and a good value.

They want it to get good MPG.

They want power but not at the expense of MPG.

They want resale.

They want safe.

They want it to not be hideous but they do not care if it looks like it came from an Italian design house.

Just look at the formula Honda and Toyota has used for years and you will see non offensive boring cars that are generally are well optioned at prices that most can afford. They normally have to just do tires and brakes along with oil changes in the first 100K miles. They are safe if it crashes and they can trade it for a decent price once it is time.

The Malibu has hit on all these wants and has added a little styling to stand out from the others. They are going more aggressive on price and that means a lot here. Most people can care less with HID lights if they can lower their payment. While GM may not show the resale yet they can challenge Honda and Toyota on price as they are higher and most people already have been turning to Hyundai and Kia to save money. Both of these brands cut corners to save money. GM may have cut a HID but over all they will still offer a car that will go 300K miles with minimal care. Drive up demand the trade in will also come up.

They have had to pick and choose here where they want to compete and they have put together a very compelling package. This car will sell north of 200K units with in the next three years. As trust is earned sales will also come. We saw this in the Nox where sales were modest the first year and since then the sales have gone up each and every year. Last year they were well over 200K units on a vehicle in the same price range.

I fear the one vehicle to hurt the Malibu the most may be the Nox. Same price segment and the increase popularity of the CUV are a threat to the mid size sedan.

The Cruze, Malibu and Nox will be a good thing for GM over the next 5 years. They will make some noise here.

 

 

You wanna talk about ME being clueless and you go make such a pathetically biased fanboy post??? Please.

 

The Malibu sells near the bottom of the barrel of the current midsize market for very, very good reason. A cheap, chintzy interior, small back seat, bland design, poor content for the price, and less than class-leading reliability and value all conspire against it. Resale value? That's a good one. They have atrocious residual. My dealer can't hardly give Malibus away, and we're squarely in pro-Domestic America.

 

 

 

The fact is most people are not really wanting to stand out.

They want a car they can afford.

They want a car that is reliable.

They want a car with many features that is still affordable and a good value.

They want it to get good MPG.

They want power but not at the expense of MPG.

They want resale.

They want safe.

They want it to not be hideous but they do not care if it looks like it came from an Italian design house.

Just look at the formula Honda and Toyota has used for years and you will see non offensive boring cars that are generally are well optioned at prices that most can afford. They normally have to just do tires and brakes along with oil changes in the first 100K miles. They are safe if it crashes and they can trade it for a decent price once it is time.

The Malibu has hit on all these wants and has added a little styling to stand out from the others. They are going more aggressive on price and that means a lot here. Most people can care less with HID lights if they can lower their payment. While GM may not show the resale yet they can challenge Honda and Toyota on price as they are higher and most people already have been turning to Hyundai and Kia to save money. Both of these brands cut corners to save money. GM may have cut a HID but over all they will still offer a car that will go 300K miles with minimal care. Drive up demand the trade in will also come up.

They have had to pick and choose here where they want to compete and they have put together a very compelling package. This car will sell north of 200K units with in the next three years. As trust is earned sales will also come. We saw this in the Nox where sales were modest the first year and since then the sales have gone up each and every year. Last year they were well over 200K units on a vehicle in the same price range.

I fear the one vehicle to hurt the Malibu the most may be the Nox. Same price segment and the increase popularity of the CUV are a threat to the mid size sedan.

The Cruze, Malibu and Nox will be a good thing for GM over the next 5 years. They will make some noise here.

 

 

You wanna talk about ME being clueless and you go make such a pathetically biased fanboy post??? Please.

 

The Malibu sells near the bottom of the barrel of the current midsize market for very, very good reason. A cheap, chintzy interior, small back seat, bland design, poor content for the price, and less than class-leading reliability and value all conspire against it. Resale value? That's a good one. They have atrocious residual. My dealer can't hardly give Malibus away, and we're squarely in pro-Domestic America.

 

 

Everything that Frisky has said is true. I initially liked the current Malibu in photos. In person, it's atrocious.  It's a terrible; terrible product;  and this one will just be par for the course. It's got nothing segment defining. Even the hybrid is outclassed by a Honda Accord Hybrid that's a one or two model years older. It's just another car to consider; but it will not be hunting for the top spot because of its merits as much as how aggressive pricing will keep the car in the mix.

 

Don't for a second think that GM forgot the massive incentives and rental car image established by this generation. And I think it's pure stupidity to tarnish this Malibu's image by selling the old one to fleets. No one is going to go to a Chevy dealer after renting a Malibu. Plain and simple.

[Suaviloquent]

Dingo I note in most of your comments it is "I Feel". This is very subjective and not really a representative of what the real world is "Feeling". Also it does not represent the real numbers either.

Lets just let the lightest car in the segment get market and just see how it pans out. In this segment MPG is more important to most over 0-60 times. Most of these people it is just about getting there and not image or performance. Hence not the most exciting segment in the market.

From what I have found the final numbers are still not posted as they are estimated and normally add around 5 more HP and some more torque.

As it is now the 2.5 was 196HP @ 6300 RPM 191 FT LBS @ 4400RPM

The 1.5 is estimated at 160HP and 184 FT LBS. noting that most DI Turbo engines bring the torque in at much lower than 4400 RPM, Mine has 315 FT LBS at 2000 RPM and holds it to 5300 RPM.

Add in the drop of 300 HP on top of these numbers I do not expect a M series car but one as good if not a little better than what we had with more MPG.

No matter how you want to spin this it will not be a step back.

With the estimated number we are only down 7 FT LBS and it may come in much lower than the present 2.5. The final number may even erase this.

No I don't have all the answers but with the numbers we have and what GM normally does I can see them all working in the right direction. But till the final product is rolled out we will have to wait for those answers.

 

Dingo I note in most of your comments it is "I Feel". This is very subjective and not really a representative of what the real world is "Feeling". Also it does not represent the real numbers either.

Lets just let the lightest car in the segment get market and just see how it pans out. In this segment MPG is more important to most over 0-60 times. Most of these people it is just about getting there and not image or performance. Hence not the most exciting segment in the market.

From what I have found the final numbers are still not posted as they are estimated and normally add around 5 more HP and some more torque.

As it is now the 2.5 was 196HP @ 6300 RPM 191 FT LBS @ 4400RPM

The 1.5 is estimated at 160HP and 184 FT LBS. noting that most DI Turbo engines bring the torque in at much lower than 4400 RPM, Mine has 315 FT LBS at 2000 RPM and holds it to 5300 RPM.

Add in the drop of 300 HP on top of these numbers I do not expect a M series car but one as good if not a little better than what we had with more MPG.

No matter how you want to spin this it will not be a step back.

With the estimated number we are only down 7 FT LBS and it may come in much lower than the present 2.5. The final number may even erase this.

No I don't have all the answers but with the numbers we have and what GM normally does I can see them all working in the right direction. But till the final product is rolled out we will have to wait for those answers.

 

It's not going to be the lightest car. 

 

The Nissan Altima or Mazda 6 will remain the feather weight champions. It just catches up to MPG set by the standard bearers; again set by Mazda and Nissan or Honda if you consider hybrids.

 

Or consider the Hyundai Sonata Eco. MT got what, a 0-60 time of 6.6 seconds; and it's rated to 38/28 mpg; and their real mpg panned that out as well. It makes more power as well.

[surreal1272]

I'm just going to say this about the "bottom of the barrel". It is #6 for the year so far too.

Edited September 15, 2015 by surreal1272

[ccap41]

Dodge Avenger has sales this year still? They better be 50% off. Lol

[hyperv6]

What you are also not considering is what the present car was.

 

 

I in no way have ever said the present car was the best in class or perfect. I really like the 08 model better. Now with that cleared.

The present model was in the works before the bail out. It came at a time GM did not have the time or money to complete the job and had to use what they had. They rushed the car to market because they knew the Fusion was coming and at least if they were first they would get some attention. 

GM knew what they wanted and needed but knew it would take time to get it as they needed the new platform. Well here it is.

 

The present car does have many short comings but it is far from a total failure. Id did the job they needed as they needed to buy time and that is what it did.

 

You have to keep in context the conditions and reasons what was done here. Sometimes companies have to work with the cards they are dealt and this one was just that. They were stuck with a aging car in class and could not wait for what they needed as funding and man power was tied up in other programs like Alpha and trucks. They used the platform they had and it got them through. While it did not advance the brand it did not harm it much either.

 

Chrysler is seeing the same results with he 200 as it is not the car they need as it falls short but it is doing better than they have been doing.

At lest with GM they appear to have it right this time and we should see a large improvement in all areas.

 

Again you have to look big picture not just in the showroom to sort some of this out.

[Frisky Dingo]

 

 

I'm sorry, are you really trying to insult me because of my profession??

Well so you are not the wash boy?

To be honest I really did not know what you did nor really care. You have taken your shots too and I just return in kind. If I wanted to hurt your feeling I would have said something bad about your mother.

I normally keep things on the respectful level till the other person stops being respectful in kind. I can disagree and get along with most people but when they start like you have here I really don't care anymore.

First thing you need to do is not judge the new car with the past. The past has many issue that do not pertain to the new car. H

second Honda and Toyota have a happy fan base and it will only take time and better product to over come that. Better product we have coming and time will just take that time.

As for under powered? Till you drive the car you had better not pass judgment on what you have no clue of. You think you can really notice 7 FT LBS? This is what you feel and what moves the car from a stop not as much HP. You mechanical aptitude side does correlate with a Salesman.

The truth is todays Malibu that is coming will be as good as any car in the segment. Changing minds takes time and not much anyone can do with that. While you may not be able to sell a Malibu many people must be able as there are a ton of them on the road.

With the way you think I can see why you can't sell one. Judgmental Pessimism of a product does not lend to being a good salesman of a product.

 

 

That's BS.

 

All I said was that I didn't like how the car went backwards on power. And then you, and an Admin of all people jumped all on my $h! for no reason. Maybe you should go back and read this thread over, guy. YOU started with the insults and the disrespect. Heaven forbid someone have an opinion that you disagree with concerning a GM product. It's not like I said the car was going to be a POS or anything. I said I wished they didn't lower the power, and I thought it'd feel weak. If you have a problem with fine, you're entitled to your own thoughts on the matter. But either state as much in a respectful manner or just move along.

 

As for my mechanical aptitude, I was an aircraft mechanic in the USAF, cars are a piece of cake. If you don't understand how easily (less!) peak torque being available 2K rpm earlier can easily be outweighed by losing 36hp, then I really don't know what to tell you. Malibus aren't bought as in-town commuters. They're bought as family cars. Meaning long drives over the open road should be taken into account. This thing will struggle at that task, especially with multiple occupants. That's just my opinion. If you don't like it, great. I think just about all the 4 cylinder offerings in this class aren't sufficient for such a task, but some are clearly more endowed than others.

 

If, IF, it truly loses 300hp and it makes up the difference, awesome. I STILL think it would have been even BETTER, if they dropped weight, AND kept power levels closer to what they already have. GM needs to stop catching up to the rest of the class, and make a vehicle that clearly pushes beyond it. They did it with the Colorado. Imo, they did it with the first Cruze. But this car is not as impressive as it could have been from a powertrain perspective.

 

As for your continued low shots at my profession, I'll feel you in on a little tidbit. The best sales people can mask their feelings toward a product and individual and focus on the sale. It's 101. I absolutely hate the Equinox and sell boat loads of them. That's how sales works. What I look for in a car is irrelevant to a buyer. And for the record, I quite like the current Malibu. But when measured against the class leaders in the areas that matter most to buyers, the car is at a disadvantage. That much is established fact at this point.

[Frisky Dingo]

I'm just going to say this about the "bottom of the barrel". It is #6 for the year so far too.

 

 

Yeah, too bad that's #6 out of a class that really only has 11 players in reality.

 

Also, while everyone is throwing the sales figures around, here's a juicy little tidbit that nobody knows or ever hears/talks about- GM counts their service loaners as monthly sales.

 

In other words, they're inflated.

[ccap41]

^ Does Ford/FCA/Anybody else do that, that you know of?

 

I'm also curious, in your opinion, what cars on that list do you not consider competitors to the segment? Not sure why the Venza is on that list, Priuses, C-Max, Leaf, Outback.. That's just a weird list.

Edited September 15, 2015 by ccap41

[surreal1272]

 

I'm just going to say this about the "bottom of the barrel". It is #6 for the year so far too.

 

 

Yeah, too bad that's #6 out of a class that really only has 11 players in reality.

 

Also, while everyone is throwing the sales figures around, here's a juicy little tidbit that nobody knows or ever hears/talks about- GM counts their service loaners as monthly sales.

 

In other words, they're inflated.

 

That's 6 out of 13 in reality. Why you would exclude the Subaru and the Mazda is beyond me, other than the fact that you are saying it like that to support your point, which is a bit muddled at best Frisky. Sorry.

[Frisky Dingo]

Ford doesn't that I'm aware of. Don't know FCA. Honda and Toyota don't.

[hyperv6]

 

 

I'm sorry, are you really trying to insult me because of my profession??

Well so you are not the wash boy?

To be honest I really did not know what you did nor really care. You have taken your shots too and I just return in kind. If I wanted to hurt your feeling I would have said something bad about your mother.

I normally keep things on the respectful level till the other person stops being respectful in kind. I can disagree and get along with most people but when they start like you have here I really don't care anymore.

First thing you need to do is not judge the new car with the past. The past has many issue that do not pertain to the new car. H

second Honda and Toyota have a happy fan base and it will only take time and better product to over come that. Better product we have coming and time will just take that time.

As for under powered? Till you drive the car you had better not pass judgment on what you have no clue of. You think you can really notice 7 FT LBS? This is what you feel and what moves the car from a stop not as much HP. You mechanical aptitude side does correlate with a Salesman.

The truth is todays Malibu that is coming will be as good as any car in the segment. Changing minds takes time and not much anyone can do with that. While you may not be able to sell a Malibu many people must be able as there are a ton of them on the road.

With the way you think I can see why you can't sell one. Judgmental Pessimism of a product does not lend to being a good salesman of a product.

 

 

That's BS.

 

All I said was that I didn't like how the car went backwards on power. And then you, and an Admin of all people jumped all on my $h! for no reason. Maybe you should go back and read this thread over, guy. YOU started with the insults and the disrespect. Heaven forbid someone have an opinion that you disagree with concerning a GM product. It's not like I said the car was going to be a POS or anything. I said I wished they didn't lower the power, and I thought it'd feel weak. If you have a problem with fine, you're entitled to your own thoughts on the matter. But either state as much in a respectful manner or just move along.

 

As for my mechanical aptitude, I was an aircraft mechanic in the USAF, cars are a piece of cake. If you don't understand how easily (less!) peak torque being available 2K rpm earlier can easily be outweighed by losing 36hp, then I really don't know what to tell you. Malibus aren't bought as in-town commuters. They're bought as family cars. Meaning long drives over the open road should be taken into account. This thing will struggle at that task, especially with multiple occupants. That's just my opinion. If you don't like it, great. I think just about all the 4 cylinder offerings in this class aren't sufficient for such a task, but some are clearly more endowed than others.

 

If, IF, it truly loses 300hp and it makes up the difference, awesome. I STILL think it would have been even BETTER, if they dropped weight, AND kept power levels closer to what they already have. GM needs to stop catching up to the rest of the class, and make a vehicle that clearly pushes beyond it. They did it with the Colorado. Imo, they did it with the first Cruze. But this car is not as impressive as it could have been from a powertrain perspective.

 

As for your continued low shots at my profession, I'll feel you in on a little tidbit. The best sales people can mask their feelings toward a product and individual and focus on the sale. It's 101. I absolutely hate the Equinox and sell boat loads of them. That's how sales works. What I look for in a car is irrelevant to a buyer. And for the record, I quite like the current Malibu. But when measured against the class leaders in the areas that matter most to buyers, the car is at a disadvantage. That much is established fact at this point.

As for your post I have seen what you have done here before and was not surprised with what you have done with me. I really don't take it personal and we will leave it like that. If Admin contacted you other must perceive your post different from you. Semantics of the words often can mean different things to other people but comments that you don't know $h! normally is worded in a better way.

As for what you did in the past I appreciate your service but that does not always translate to the automotive sector as much. I know some great jet mechanics but they really do not understand the workings of Variable Timing on a Cam. Heck I have had to explain to SAE Cert Mechanics that they have to clearance blocks to do a stroker engine. Everyone has their specialty and weakness nothing wrong with that.

Enough personal crap.

Here is the deal. Yes the car will lose 300 Pounds.

The performance index is going to be about the same as it was if not better. GM will not make a slower or less performing car but it will get better MPG.

As for the open road around town is where the power is more noticeable in stop and go traffic. On the open road the car is moving at a steady rate and really needs little power to keep it in motion. The turbo will help in higher altitudes as it will adjust to the needs etc. Power is missed in town when you are shooting for gaps in traffic and when you are 0-40 MPH.

If you let them bring this out you will note the performance metrics will show this car will be as good as anything in class performance wise.

You do understand that none of the cars in this class are able to meet the coming MPG CAFE standards. The cutting of weight and smaller engines while keeping the same performance will be done on all the models in this segment. The advancement of the Hybrid systems will become even more common. The coming system here sounds good but we really have not seen enough to praise or condemn it yet.

By the way the Colorado kept the same engine but gained weight. Cutting power could not be done. The coming Cruze was already using the smaller engines.

The Malibu still offers the 2.0 if you want it and is more than enough power to make nearly anyone happy. Note the power in that engine will make it run numbers better than a stock 1968 SS Chevelle.

As for your profession there are good and bad sales people out there. Too often the turn over leaves many dealers hurting but too often the way they treat the staff it is their own fault. It is not just auto sales but sales in general that too often brings the worst out of some folks for survival. I don't know you and I can not judge you so I will not.

As for what you think that is fine but get used to the fact that others here feel different. If you want to prove your point give us facts or at least info that backs up your point. Posting WTF and you don't know SH*T does not prove your point. Build a case with evidence to prove your point. You do that and there is no argument. But I feel and I think builds nothing and it is all just personal preference at this point.

I am not the first person you have clashed with here and at the rate it has gone I will not be the last. Structured arguments and substantiated info goes much better in a debate. We do that here often and most of us get along fine. We may not agree but we still get along.

At this point I have presented my side and am willing to let the first road test prove me right or wrong on the performance and sales to prove me right or wrong on the acceptance. A new car like this takes 2-3 years to show if it was a success and there is no argument in the end. The numbers will show how things went.

[Frisky Dingo]

 

 

I'm just going to say this about the "bottom of the barrel". It is #6 for the year so far too.

 

 

Yeah, too bad that's #6 out of a class that really only has 11 players in reality.

 

Also, while everyone is throwing the sales figures around, here's a juicy little tidbit that nobody knows or ever hears/talks about- GM counts their service loaners as monthly sales.

 

In other words, they're inflated.

 

That's 6 out of 13 in reality. Why you would exclude the Subaru and the Mazda is beyond me, other than the fact that you are saying it like that to support your point, which is a bit muddled at best Frisky. Sorry.

 

 

Lol, I am counting the Subaru and Mazda. 

 

1)Toyota Camry

2)Honda Accord

3)Nissan Altima

4)Ford Fusion

5)Hyundai Sonata

6)Chevy Malibu

7)Chrysler 200

8)Kia Optima

9)VW Passat

10)Mazda 6

11)Subaru Legacy

 

 

 

What on earth is so hard to understand about this?

[Frisky Dingo]

 

 

 

 

I'm sorry, are you really trying to insult me because of my profession??

Well so you are not the wash boy?

To be honest I really did not know what you did nor really care. You have taken your shots too and I just return in kind. If I wanted to hurt your feeling I would have said something bad about your mother.

I normally keep things on the respectful level till the other person stops being respectful in kind. I can disagree and get along with most people but when they start like you have here I really don't care anymore.

First thing you need to do is not judge the new car with the past. The past has many issue that do not pertain to the new car. H

second Honda and Toyota have a happy fan base and it will only take time and better product to over come that. Better product we have coming and time will just take that time.

As for under powered? Till you drive the car you had better not pass judgment on what you have no clue of. You think you can really notice 7 FT LBS? This is what you feel and what moves the car from a stop not as much HP. You mechanical aptitude side does correlate with a Salesman.

The truth is todays Malibu that is coming will be as good as any car in the segment. Changing minds takes time and not much anyone can do with that. While you may not be able to sell a Malibu many people must be able as there are a ton of them on the road.

With the way you think I can see why you can't sell one. Judgmental Pessimism of a product does not lend to being a good salesman of a product.

 

 

That's BS.

 

All I said was that I didn't like how the car went backwards on power. And then you, and an Admin of all people jumped all on my $h! for no reason. Maybe you should go back and read this thread over, guy. YOU started with the insults and the disrespect. Heaven forbid someone have an opinion that you disagree with concerning a GM product. It's not like I said the car was going to be a POS or anything. I said I wished they didn't lower the power, and I thought it'd feel weak. If you have a problem with fine, you're entitled to your own thoughts on the matter. But either state as much in a respectful manner or just move along.

 

As for my mechanical aptitude, I was an aircraft mechanic in the USAF, cars are a piece of cake. If you don't understand how easily (less!) peak torque being available 2K rpm earlier can easily be outweighed by losing 36hp, then I really don't know what to tell you. Malibus aren't bought as in-town commuters. They're bought as family cars. Meaning long drives over the open road should be taken into account. This thing will struggle at that task, especially with multiple occupants. That's just my opinion. If you don't like it, great. I think just about all the 4 cylinder offerings in this class aren't sufficient for such a task, but some are clearly more endowed than others.

 

If, IF, it truly loses 300hp and it makes up the difference, awesome. I STILL think it would have been even BETTER, if they dropped weight, AND kept power levels closer to what they already have. GM needs to stop catching up to the rest of the class, and make a vehicle that clearly pushes beyond it. They did it with the Colorado. Imo, they did it with the first Cruze. But this car is not as impressive as it could have been from a powertrain perspective.

 

As for your continued low shots at my profession, I'll feel you in on a little tidbit. The best sales people can mask their feelings toward a product and individual and focus on the sale. It's 101. I absolutely hate the Equinox and sell boat loads of them. That's how sales works. What I look for in a car is irrelevant to a buyer. And for the record, I quite like the current Malibu. But when measured against the class leaders in the areas that matter most to buyers, the car is at a disadvantage. That much is established fact at this point.

As for your post I have seen what you have done here before and was not surprised with what you have done with me. I really don't take it personal and we will leave it like that. If Admin contacted you other must perceive your post different from you. Semantics of the words often can mean different things to other people but comments that you don't know $h! normally is worded in a better way.

As for what you did in the past I appreciate your service but that does not always translate to the automotive sector as much. I know some great jet mechanics but they really do not understand the workings of Variable Timing on a Cam. Heck I have had to explain to SAE Cert Mechanics that they have to clearance blocks to do a stroker engine. Everyone has their specialty and weakness nothing wrong with that.

Enough personal crap.

Here is the deal. Yes the car will lose 300 Pounds.

The performance index is going to be about the same as it was if not better. GM will not make a slower or less performing car but it will get better MPG.

As for the open road around town is where the power is more noticeable in stop and go traffic. On the open road the car is moving at a steady rate and really needs little power to keep it in motion. The turbo will help in higher altitudes as it will adjust to the needs etc. Power is missed in town when you are shooting for gaps in traffic and when you are 0-40 MPH.

If you let them bring this out you will note the performance metrics will show this car will be as good as anything in class performance wise.

You do understand that none of the cars in this class are able to meet the coming MPG CAFE standards. The cutting of weight and smaller engines while keeping the same performance will be done on all the models in this segment. The advancement of the Hybrid systems will become even more common. The coming system here sounds good but we really have not seen enough to praise or condemn it yet.

By the way the Colorado kept the same engine but gained weight. Cutting power could not be done. The coming Cruze was already using the smaller engines.

The Malibu still offers the 2.0 if you want it and is more than enough power to make nearly anyone happy. Note the power in that engine will make it run numbers better than a stock 1968 SS Chevelle.

As for your profession there are good and bad sales people out there. Too often the turn over leaves many dealers hurting but too often the way they treat the staff it is their own fault. It is not just auto sales but sales in general that too often brings the worst out of some folks for survival. I don't know you and I can not judge you so I will not.

As for what you think that is fine but get used to the fact that others here feel different. If you want to prove your point give us facts or at least info that backs up your point. Posting WTF and you don't know SH*T does not prove your point. Build a case with evidence to prove your point. You do that and there is no argument. But I feel and I think builds nothing and it is all just personal preference at this point.

I am not the first person you have clashed with here and at the rate it has gone I will not be the last. Structured arguments and substantiated info goes much better in a debate. We do that here often and most of us get along fine. We may not agree but we still get along.

At this point I have presented my side and am willing to let the first road test prove me right or wrong on the performance and sales to prove me right or wrong on the acceptance. A new car like this takes 2-3 years to show if it was a success and there is no argument in the end. The numbers will show how things went.

 

 

 

Here is my first post-

 

"I predict this car is still going to continue with poor sales. 

 

I really like the styling. I don't like how they are lowering power levels, though."

 

Here is my second-

 

I'm sorry, I still think this thing is going to feel pokey. I think anything under 180hp is too little for this class. Even with the weight loss, I can see this thing feeling labored, especially with 2-3 passengers and cargo. Heck, you can get more powerful engines in the Mazda 3 and Focus.

 

As for the sales, I think the sales will increase very little, if at all. GM refuses to get aggressive on leasing programs, and coupled with ever increasing CUV market share, it sets the stage for mediocre sales. I can also all but guarantee there will be issues at launch with availability of certain trims, options, etc. 

 

That said, I'm still very much looking forward to seeing one in person and driving one.

 

Here is yours-

 

Drew it is clear he has no clue or even has driven one of the Eco DI Turbo engines as it has more low end Torque than some recent V8 models and a torque curve flatter than the Bonneville.

It is post like this that lose credibility in the argument and he finishes himself off. 

 

 

So you can clearly see where I not only posted anything insulting until YOU did, I also did not even unduly criticize the car. In fact, I gave it compliments in my posts, and criticized others in the same class in them, as well.

 

As for the rest of your post, I've always done most of my maintenance on my cars. They're not hard. If a mechanic doesn't understand variable valve timing, he needs to find another job. But regardless, my mechanical ability has no bearing on my posts. 

 

I haven't had trouble with anyone hear who has approached conversation in a level-headed and respectful manner. If you and Drew would do so, I wouldn't have had issues with you, either. I'm one of the least biased, open-minded, and experienced posters here and at MT, and you have to really get personal or just be an ignorant fanboy for me to take issue. And even then, so long as double standards aren't being used or others' reasonable opinions aren't attacked, I'll still let it ride.

 

I don't have to give out facts when stating my opinion. That's what DEFINES an opinion. I'm sorry you seem to have a different definition of the term, and when it is acceptable to use. Just get over it already. Stop getting so bent out of shape over someone else's thoughts on a car you don't even own or had a hand in building.  Holy crap.

[ccap41]

 

 

 

I'm just going to say this about the "bottom of the barrel". It is #6 for the year so far too.

 

 

Yeah, too bad that's #6 out of a class that really only has 11 players in reality.

 

Also, while everyone is throwing the sales figures around, here's a juicy little tidbit that nobody knows or ever hears/talks about- GM counts their service loaners as monthly sales.

 

In other words, they're inflated.

 

That's 6 out of 13 in reality. Why you would exclude the Subaru and the Mazda is beyond me, other than the fact that you are saying it like that to support your point, which is a bit muddled at best Frisky. Sorry.

 

 

Lol, I am counting the Subaru and Mazda. 

 

1)Toyota Camry

2)Honda Accord

3)Nissan Altima

4)Ford Fusion

5)Hyundai Sonata

6)Chevy Malibu

7)Chrysler 200

8)Kia Optima

9)VW Passat

10)Mazda 6

11)Subaru Legacy

 

 

 

What on earth is so hard to understand about this?

 

I think I would include the Regal and CC as well, but that's just my personal opinion. Either way.. the top 5 have a pretty solid sales lead on the rest of the field.

[hyperv6]

 

 

I'm sorry, are you really trying to insult me because of my profession??

Well so you are not the wash boy?

To be honest I really did not know what you did nor really care. You have taken your shots too and I just return in kind. If I wanted to hurt your feeling I would have said something bad about your mother.

I normally keep things on the respectful level till the other person stops being respectful in kind. I can disagree and get along with most people but when they start like you have here I really don't care anymore.

First thing you need to do is not judge the new car with the past. The past has many issue that do not pertain to the new car. H

second Honda and Toyota have a happy fan base and it will only take time and better product to over come that. Better product we have coming and time will just take that time.

As for under powered? Till you drive the car you had better not pass judgment on what you have no clue of. You think you can really notice 7 FT LBS? This is what you feel and what moves the car from a stop not as much HP. You mechanical aptitude side does correlate with a Salesman.

The truth is todays Malibu that is coming will be as good as any car in the segment. Changing minds takes time and not much anyone can do with that. While you may not be able to sell a Malibu many people must be able as there are a ton of them on the road.

With the way you think I can see why you can't sell one. Judgmental Pessimism of a product does not lend to being a good salesman of a product.

 

 

That's BS.

 

All I said was that I didn't like how the car went backwards on power. And then you, and an Admin of all people jumped all on my $h! for no reason. Maybe you should go back and read this thread over, guy. YOU started with the insults and the disrespect. Heaven forbid someone have an opinion that you disagree with concerning a GM product. It's not like I said the car was going to be a POS or anything. I said I wished they didn't lower the power, and I thought it'd feel weak. If you have a problem with fine, you're entitled to your own thoughts on the matter. But either state as much in a respectful manner or just move along.

 

As for my mechanical aptitude, I was an aircraft mechanic in the USAF, cars are a piece of cake. If you don't understand how easily (less!) peak torque being available 2K rpm earlier can easily be outweighed by losing 36hp, then I really don't know what to tell you. Malibus aren't bought as in-town commuters. They're bought as family cars. Meaning long drives over the open road should be taken into account. This thing will struggle at that task, especially with multiple occupants. That's just my opinion. If you don't like it, great. I think just about all the 4 cylinder offerings in this class aren't sufficient for such a task, but some are clearly more endowed than others.

 

If, IF, it truly loses 300hp and it makes up the difference, awesome. I STILL think it would have been even BETTER, if they dropped weight, AND kept power levels closer to what they already have. GM needs to stop catching up to the rest of the class, and make a vehicle that clearly pushes beyond it. They did it with the Colorado. Imo, they did it with the first Cruze. But this car is not as impressive as it could have been from a powertrain perspective.

 

As for your continued low shots at my profession, I'll feel you in on a little tidbit. The best sales people can mask their feelings toward a product and individual and focus on the sale. It's 101. I absolutely hate the Equinox and sell boat loads of them. That's how sales works. What I look for in a car is irrelevant to a buyer. And for the record, I quite like the current Malibu. But when measured against the class leaders in the areas that matter most to buyers, the car is at a disadvantage. That much is established fact at this point.

As for your post I have seen what you have done here before and was not surprised with what you have done with me. I really don't take it personal and we will leave it like that. If Admin contacted you other must perceive your post different from you. Semantics of the words often can mean different things to other people but comments that you don't know $h! normally is worded in a better way.

As for what you did in the past I appreciate your service but that does not always translate to the automotive sector as much. I know some great jet mechanics but they really do not understand the workings of Variable Timing on a Cam. Heck I have had to explain to SAE Cert Mechanics that they have to clearance blocks to do a stroker engine. Everyone has their specialty and weakness nothing wrong with that.

Enough personal crap.

Here is the deal. Yes the car will lose 300 Pounds.

The performance index is going to be about the same as it was if not better. GM will not make a slower or less performing car but it will get better MPG.

As for the open road around town is where the power is more noticeable in stop and go traffic. On the open road the car is moving at a steady rate and really needs little power to keep it in motion. The turbo will help in higher altitudes as it will adjust to the needs etc. Power is missed in town when you are shooting for gaps in traffic and when you are 0-40 MPH.

If you let them bring this out you will note the performance metrics will show this car will be as good as anything in class performance wise.

You do understand that none of the cars in this class are able to meet the coming MPG CAFE standards. The cutting of weight and smaller engines while keeping the same performance will be done on all the models in this segment. The advancement of the Hybrid systems will become even more common. The coming system here sounds good but we really have not seen enough to praise or condemn it yet.

By the way the Colorado kept the same engine but gained weight. Cutting power could not be done. The coming Cruze was already using the smaller engines.

The Malibu still offers the 2.0 if you want it and is more than enough power to make nearly anyone happy. Note the power in that engine will make it run numbers better than a stock 1968 SS Chevelle.

As for your profession there are good and bad sales people out there. Too often the turn over leaves many dealers hurting but too often the way they treat the staff it is their own fault. It is not just auto sales but sales in general that too often brings the worst out of some folks for survival. I don't know you and I can not judge you so I will not.

As for what you think that is fine but get used to the fact that others here feel different. If you want to prove your point give us facts or at least info that backs up your point. Posting WTF and you don't know SH*T does not prove your point. Build a case with evidence to prove your point. You do that and there is no argument. But I feel and I think builds nothing and it is all just personal preference at this point.

I am not the first person you have clashed with here and at the rate it has gone I will not be the last. Structured arguments and substantiated info goes much better in a debate. We do that here often and most of us get along fine. We may not agree but we still get along.

At this point I have presented my side and am willing to let the first road test prove me right or wrong on the performance and sales to prove me right or wrong on the acceptance. A new car like this takes 2-3 years to show if it was a success and there is no argument in the end. The numbers will show how things went.

 

Here is my first post-

 

"I predict this car is still going to continue with poor sales. 

 

I really like the styling. I don't like how they are lowering power levels, though."

 

Here is my second-

 

I'm sorry, I still think this thing is going to feel pokey. I think anything under 180hp is too little for this class. Even with the weight loss, I can see this thing feeling labored, especially with 2-3 passengers and cargo. Heck, you can get more powerful engines in the Mazda 3 and Focus.

 

As for the sales, I think the sales will increase very little, if at all. GM refuses to get aggressive on leasing programs, and coupled with ever increasing CUV market share, it sets the stage for mediocre sales. I can also all but guarantee there will be issues at launch with availability of certain trims, options, etc. 

 

That said, I'm still very much looking forward to seeing one in person and driving one.

 

Here is yours-

 

Drew it is clear he has no clue or even has driven one of the Eco DI Turbo engines as it has more low end Torque than some recent V8 models and a torque curve flatter than the Bonneville.

It is post like this that lose credibility in the argument and he finishes himself off. 

 

 

So you can clearly see where I not only posted anything insulting until YOU did, I also did not even unduly criticize the car. In fact, I gave it compliments in my posts, and criticized others in the same class in them, as well.

 

As for the rest of your post, I've always done most of my maintenance on my cars. They're not hard. If a mechanic doesn't understand variable valve timing, he needs to find another job. But regardless, my mechanical ability has no bearing on my posts. 

 

I haven't had trouble with anyone hear who has approached conversation in a level-headed and respectful manner. If you and Drew would do so, I wouldn't have had issues with you, either. I'm one of the least biased, open-minded, and experienced posters here and at MT, and you have to really get personal or just be an ignorant fanboy for me to take issue. And even then, so long as double standards aren't being used or others' reasonable opinions aren't attacked, I'll still let it ride.

 

I don't have to give out facts when stating my opinion. That's what DEFINES an opinion. I'm sorry you seem to have a different definition of the term, and when it is acceptable to use. Just get over it already. Stop getting so bent out of shape over someone else's thoughts on a car you don't even own or had a hand in building.  Holy crap.

 

All my post are there unedited and they are what they are. I have nothing to hide. Your post speak for themselves.

If you want to debate about the car I will be glad to but don't get mad if I do not agree.

You left out modest too from this line. "I'm one of the least biased, open-minded, and experienced posters here and at MT, and you have to really get personal or just be an ignorant fanboy for me to take issue." LOL!

I have some pretty thick skin. How we get along is up to you.

Edited September 15, 2015 by hyperv6

[Frisky Dingo]

 

 

 

 

I'm just going to say this about the "bottom of the barrel". It is #6 for the year so far too.

 

 

Yeah, too bad that's #6 out of a class that really only has 11 players in reality.

 

Also, while everyone is throwing the sales figures around, here's a juicy little tidbit that nobody knows or ever hears/talks about- GM counts their service loaners as monthly sales.

 

In other words, they're inflated.

 

That's 6 out of 13 in reality. Why you would exclude the Subaru and the Mazda is beyond me, other than the fact that you are saying it like that to support your point, which is a bit muddled at best Frisky. Sorry.

 

 

Lol, I am counting the Subaru and Mazda. 

 

1)Toyota Camry

2)Honda Accord

3)Nissan Altima

4)Ford Fusion

5)Hyundai Sonata

6)Chevy Malibu

7)Chrysler 200

8)Kia Optima

9)VW Passat

10)Mazda 6

11)Subaru Legacy

 

 

 

What on earth is so hard to understand about this?

 

I think I would include the Regal and CC as well, but that's just my personal opinion. Either way.. the top 5 have a pretty solid sales lead on the rest of the field.

 

 

I personally wouldn't, but if you insist, they are closer than the rest of the vehicles in that list.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Frisky Dingo

[ccap41]

 

I think I would include the Regal and CC as well, but that's just my personal opinion. Either way.. the top 5 have a pretty solid sales lead on the rest of the field.

 

 

 

 

I personally wouldn't, but if you insist, they are closer than the rest of the vehicles in that list.

 

I could see them also being more on the intro to lux side.. Yeah the rest of that list is just complete random 4 door vehicles.

[surreal1272]

 

 

 

I'm just going to say this about the "bottom of the barrel". It is #6 for the year so far too.

 

 

Yeah, too bad that's #6 out of a class that really only has 11 players in reality.

 

Also, while everyone is throwing the sales figures around, here's a juicy little tidbit that nobody knows or ever hears/talks about- GM counts their service loaners as monthly sales.

 

In other words, they're inflated.

 

That's 6 out of 13 in reality. Why you would exclude the Subaru and the Mazda is beyond me, other than the fact that you are saying it like that to support your point, which is a bit muddled at best Frisky. Sorry.

 

 

Lol, I am counting the Subaru and Mazda. 

 

1)Toyota Camry

2)Honda Accord

3)Nissan Altima

4)Ford Fusion

5)Hyundai Sonata

6)Chevy Malibu

7)Chrysler 200

8)Kia Optima

9)VW Passat

10)Mazda 6

11)Subaru Legacy

 

 

 

What on earth is so hard to understand about this?

 

LOL yourself. I am counting BOTH Subarus. NO need to get pissy about it because of your beef with someone else. You want to look at it one way and I'm going to look at it another.

[surreal1272]

And for the record, being even 6th out 11, makes it "mid pack", not "at or near the bottom". 

[hyperv6]

The case here of the present car makes it like a glass half full or half empty. Just depends on how you want to look at it. Either way there is much to improve here as GM should be in the top three with this car and in this segment. They did that in the 08 gen.

This car has fallen short but for good reasons as it was a still born model. GM had to use what they had as they could not string the older car any longer but were not ready with the new platform. It did it's job to buy time and not damage the brand.  You are not going to hit it out of the park with every model.

 

Also the Fusion did more damage here as Ford had crap in the past Fusion and pretty much made a better Malibu.

Here is how this one will play out. The first year will be the year of discovery by the unwashed public. Remember most people this car is targeted at have no idea it is coming as they are not enthusiast. Once they hit the road people will see them and start to investigate. We should see it take off in the second half of the year. The second year will build even more sales and by the third it should be in third place in sales and not selling at great discounts.

 

We should see a similar progression with the Cruze.

GM needs to market these cars well as they really finally have something worth marketing here that can really make an impact.

People appear ready to trust GM again as we have seen it in the Cruze and Nox. The entrenched two MFG have been strong but have shown some weakness of late in quality and lack of advancement. They have played it safe. Pricing will help as they are too expensive and if the economy remains stagnate people will search for ways to save on a car payment.

 

The design is compelling and much nicer than the Honda and Toyota. The MPG is going to be good. The quality and refinement will be better this time than any other they have offered. This should do well in this segment. Also it will sell for a higher exchange rate than the present car and less incentives.

 

The Hybrid appears to be something special on paper. Price and just how well it works will determine just how well it does in sales.

 

The fact is there is still a lot on this car we still do not know. The little details and features have not really be represented to the public yet and many were not listed on the configuration sites. Heck we have not even gotten the final HP and Torque yet and I expect like GM does it will increase around 5 HP and a few FT LBS.

 

With all the new product the show rooms should be busy this year. The Camaro alone will draw many in and help introduce people to the Cruze and Malibu. This is what happened in the 80's when Pontiac had the new Trans Am and Fiero in the show rooms back in 83-84. It lead to a lot of Grand Am sales. Pontiac gave the other two cars credit for the increase in sales of the Grand Am.

[Drew Dowdell]

 

 

 

I'm sorry, I still think this thing is going to feel pokey. I think anything under 180hp is too little for this class. Even with the weight loss, I can see this thing feeling labored, especially with 2-3 passengers and cargo. Heck, you can get more powerful engines in the Mazda 3 and Focus.

 

As for the sales, I think the sales will increase very little, if at all. GM refuses to get aggressive on leasing programs, and coupled with ever increasing CUV market share, it sets the stage for mediocre sales. I can also all but guarantee there will be issues at launch with availability of certain trims, options, etc. 

 

That said, I'm still very much looking forward to seeing one in person and driving one.

 

It's like I've been arguing in the thread about pushrods.  It's all about low end torque.  This new 1.5T has as much torque at 2,000 rpm as the current 2.5 produces at 4,400 rpm.    As a base engine, it will do fine.

 

Drew it is clear he has no clue or even has driven one of the Eco DI Turbo engines as it has more low end Torque than some recent V8 models and a torque curve flatter than the Bonneville.

It is post like this that lose credibility in the argument and he finishes himself off.

 

 

Two things-

 

1)I'd like to know what your response is going to be when the car comes out and reviewers say it feels underpowered.

 

2)Hyper, I work in the car business. I've driven and forgotten about more cars than yo can imagine. I OWNED a turbocharged car for years. Here's a news flash for you- turbo, NA, pushrod, OHC, an engine that's underpowered is underpowered. End of discussion.

 

It's clear YOU don't know WTF you're talking about.

 

 

 

My point is that horsepower really means squat.  Horsepower is a marketing tool to market to tools.   Horsepower is marketed because torque is too difficult for consumers to think about.   Consumers don't get that 180 lb-ft @ 2000 rpm is much better than 180 lb-ft @ 4400 rpm for typical family sedan driving, so asking them to make the jump into realizing that 180 lb-ft @ 2000 - 4500 rpm is actually better for their daily drive than 200 lb-ft @ 5000 rpm is a bridge too far.

 

VW salesmen used to sell their 90hp diesel Jettas with the phrase, "Horsepower sells cars, torque moves them".  The one manufacturer who seems to have figured the way around this is Ford.  Wrap all of that torque complexity and thaeVW phrase up in a great marketing word that people can pronounce, and suddenly consumers can get on board.   

 

Peak horsepower ratings at or near max RPM mean nothing in this segment, no matter how hard the manufacturers push that message that you can't possibly sit in traffic with less than 300 horsepower under the hood.

 

Consumers who just want to get from point A to point B with good fuel economy will go for the 1.5T, the consumers who are worried about acceleration will go with the 2.0T,  the greenies will go for the hybrid.

 

Again, the 1.5T has as much torque at 2,000 rpm as the 2.5 has at 4,400 rpm. As a base engine, it will be fine. 

[Drew Dowdell]

I love how GM will put a 1.5 liter engine in the Malibu in the name of CAFE, yet the Silverado still has a 5.3 liter V8.  When will we still a 2.5 liter turbo 4 as the base Silverado engine? 

 

GM also makes a 4.3 PUSHROD V6 that has as much horsepower as the old 5.3 V8 and gets good fuel economy. 

[hyperv6]

Drew here the trick is the low end and flat power curve of a DI Turbo engine. That is where the acceleration is. It also is why most of todays DI Turbo engines are now making more torque than HP. 

 

I learned a lot about torque playing with Pontiac's V8 engines the 428 in particular.

 

The other key has been the Variable timing as it sets up the flat torque curve with the pressure charge and the DI lets the base engine hold more compression as they can go 9.5 with a turbo  with the cooling fuel charge direct into the cylinder.

 

As for the claim above about the open road. Most vehicles including large SUV models can go down the road and maintain 65 MPH on as little as 30 HP. GM is now working on a V8 that will drop to 2 cylinders while cruising down the road to save more fuel.

 

I suspect the performance numbers based on what we know about the engine and the weight of the car will produce as good or better performance than the 2.5 is now. GM in their drivetrains seldom takes a step back in performance. While getting smaller nearly every case it makes more power with less engine.

 

Torque makes for efficiency.

[ccap41]

I'm sorry, I still think this thing is going to feel pokey. I think anything under 180hp is too little for this class. Even with the weight loss, I can see this thing feeling labored, especially with 2-3 passengers and cargo. Heck, you can get more powerful engines in the Mazda 3 and Focus.

 

As for the sales, I think the sales will increase very little, if at all. GM refuses to get aggressive on leasing programs, and coupled with ever increasing CUV market share, it sets the stage for mediocre sales. I can also all but guarantee there will be issues at launch with availability of certain trims, options, etc. 

 

That said, I'm still very much looking forward to seeing one in person and driving one.

The new Civic has a turbo 1.5L that puts out 174hp(no tq rating though). I would assume it would be no less than 174ftlbs with it being a turbo.

[hyperv6]

I'm sorry, I still think this thing is going to feel pokey. I think anything under 180hp is too little for this class. Even with the weight loss, I can see this thing feeling labored, especially with 2-3 passengers and cargo. Heck, you can get more powerful engines in the Mazda 3 and Focus.

 

As for the sales, I think the sales will increase very little, if at all. GM refuses to get aggressive on leasing programs, and coupled with ever increasing CUV market share, it sets the stage for mediocre sales. I can also all but guarantee there will be issues at launch with availability of certain trims, options, etc. 

 

That said, I'm still very much looking forward to seeing one in person and driving one.

The new Civic has a turbo 1.5L that puts out 174hp(no tq rating though). I would assume it would be no less than 174ftlbs with it being a turbo.

Yes with a DI Turbo and VVT it should hold more torque than HP.

1.5 will be a popular size engine as the engineers have documented the best sizes for power and MPG. 1.0, 1.5, 2.0. 3.0. 4.0 Turbo engines give the best results and that is why most companies are all using the same size engines. It is not just a coincident that they are all using the same numbers. Now how much power depends on how far they are pushing the engine and balancing the MPG. Car weight plays a big part there as mass is the next HP war.

We will see a weight war with all MFG and GM threw down the first challenge with 300 pounds in a important segment. The Cruze too in base form may even hit 2900 pounds. We will have to see where that goes.