2015 Car & Driver Lightning Lap at VIR: Z06 and CTS-V Effin KILL IT!!!

[Cmicasa the Great]

C7 Z06 did a 2:44.6 at the Lightning Lap... They ran 15+ laps in 100 degrees no heatsoak
2016 CTS-V 2:56.8 which is the FASTEST 4 Door to ever run the LL

 

2016 ATS-V Coupe 2:59.2

2016 ATS-V Sedan 2:59.8

 

 

Wow!!! Looking at those on the list... how many are built by GM and I will say it again.. I don't care what U think of General Motors, they have the absolute best automotive engineering on the planet. No other manufacturer does as much sheer performance RIGHT, and still can be driven as a daily driver with no real thoughts of having to keep a Tow truck driver on speed dial. 

Look in the first four columns of shortest times.. GM has 16 vehicles. The closest to them is all purpose built Sports car having Porsche with 13. 

Cadillac... I said CADILLAC.. makes an appearance 3 times before U see one of the "World's Ultimate Driving Machines," Car and Driver's baby.. show up.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 5, 2015 by Cmicasa the Great

[El Kabong]

Pushrods are cool.

GM is THE manufacturer for enthusiast rides right now. They got the power, they got the handling, they got the braking. Amazing to behold.

[ccap41]

Crazy seeing the Z/28 run a faster lap than the AMG GT.

[hyperv6]

Well GM is the one who is using their engineering like they can for once and showing what they can do by doing it right. Lutz enabled the engine guys and they gave us the ZR1 and now the Z06 engine. Then they built the GM Performance Division. They took basic cars and fixed them to be real track performers.

Today those people like Mark Stielow and others have been integrated into the stock production programs to make not just only performance versions but the better base models.

 

Today GM's goal is to make the complete package and not just offer a engine and a stock performance package that only just adds stiffer springs and bigger tires. They have made the complete package that will run with the best not just on the track I might add. They want the cars to go, stop and turn with the best and today we are starting to see this.

I own a GM Performance tuned HHR SS not because I had any love for the HHR but after driving it I fell in love with the engine and how it handled. This thing is a blast and can still haul a load. They tuned it not to the limit but to the point where it can take on the real world at the limit. It will not bust my fillings out but yet it will keep up with just about anything in the turns and the engine is more than enough to run 13's and 160 MPH top end if you really want to get stupid in a box.

 

As for the standard models their handling is much better than it has been ever. The standard cars will handle as well as some performance cars of the 80's yet ride better..

 

It is not crazy to see a Camaro Z/28 out run a AMG or even a Porsche. It is just proof of the new GM culture that is letting the brilliant people GM has on staff show what they can do if you back them up. For too many years they worked with one hand tied behind their back. Lutz set them free and Mary has continued the work.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

Credit where it is due, the Z06 impresses quite well.

And after 6 or 7 decades of refinement, we should expect nothing less.

[smk4565]

The CTS-V and Corvette posted great times, the CTS-V with 640 hp should post the fastest sedan time, no sedans really went much over 550 hp before last year.   The Corvette has always posted great performance per dollar, the Z06 has always been a good track car.  It is impressive that the Corvette beat the Hurcan and McLaren, because those are exotics built for speed. the level of performance you get for the price of a Corvette is amazing, it just seems to still have a bit of a redneck muscle car image, doesn't seem as cool as an Aston Martin or something like that.

 

What I found most surprising is the Ecoboost Mustang was slower than a John Cooper Works Mini and a Golf GTI.  That is a pretty weak showing.  The Mustang was barely faster than the Miata which has like 160 hp.

[smk4565]

I think the AMG S cars with the 503 hp might become the standard car in a couple years, but maybe not, just my guess.  They are working on a 600 hp version of that engine, I am sure the GT will have a track purposed Black series with the more powerful engine.  That is a Grand Touring car after all, they didn't call it the AMG TC (track car).

[oldshurst442]

SMK

 

Why must you back hand an insult like that?

About the Corvette still having 'redneck' muscle...

And about the Corvette not being as cool as                

 

As with Porsche 911, and a couple of other cars out there, the Corvette and its engineers, marketing and stylist folk know EXACTLY what the Corvette is and always was all about and they are happy to give us exactly what we EXPECT the Corvette to be...

 

The Corvette aint trying to be anything else...other than be itself...which is a Corvette...

And its refreshing to see that at least one iconic brand....as with a Porsche 911, will NEVER change its image....

The C7 is a genuine Corvette in looks and execution....its GREAT!!!!

 

Trust me....the Corvette has enough loyal following across the planet, it doesnt care what you think about it....and quite frankly...Im kinda happy you find it 'beneath you' to enjoy the Vette's looks.

 

You could keep your stuffy stiff upper lip Aston Martin...and M-B....

 

I STICK TO THE HIGH EMOTIONS OF A CORVETTE.

Like Casa says.... being American is an attitude,  and the Corvette fits that profile to a tee....and although Im Canadian, I happen to be Greek....being Greek is like being an American too......multiplied by 1000...

We Greeks got attitude, we got moxy, we got drama and we got style...and we do all of that in extreme...and we aint afraid to show it...we even got a name for it...KEFI...

 

Believe me, life is soooooooo more enjoyable to live when you let loose....

 

 

Everything the Corvette embodies....and THAT is what makes it cool....

Edited September 6, 2015 by oldshurst442

[smk4565]

I have always said the Corvette should stick to being an affordable sports car.  To me the Corvette should be in the $50-70k segment, but GM a few years ago was selling $125,000 Corvettes and $75,000 Camaros.  That is no longer making affordable sports cars.  That would be like Mazda making a $45,000 twin turbo V6 Miata, at that point it isn't a Miata any more.

 

I think GM and some Corvette fans want to compare it to Ferrari or Lamborghini, but the Corvette isn't a hand built exotic with a 8,000 rpm V12.  Which is fine, the Corvette is a different kind a car, and the performance per dollar is still good.   Corvette is the best sports car under $100k.

[El Kabong]

What I found most surprising is the Ecoboost Mustang was slower than a John Cooper Works Mini and a Golf GTI.  That is a pretty weak showing.  The Mustang was barely faster than the Miata which has like 160 hp.

Once again, C/D brought up the octane-rating issue with running EB engines, and they also speculated that heat soak might have been an issue. A bit of a letdown for 39 grand, fer sure.

[El Kabong]

I was also a bit taken aback with the Mustang GT's stats: 43 grand as-tested, well over 3800 pounds, 3:05.2 seconds.

By way of comparison, an Alpha Cadillac sedan packing roughly LT1 power weighed a smidge less and did the deed 5.4 seconds quicker.

It bodes well for the Chevy, is what I'm saying.

[ccap41]

I have always said the Corvette should stick to being an affordable sports car. To me the Corvette should be in the $50-70k segment, but GM a few years ago was selling $125,000 Corvettes and $75,000 Camaros. That is no longer making affordable sports cars. That would be like Mazda making a $45,000 twin turbo V6 Miata, at that point it isn't a Miata any more.

I think GM and some Corvette fans want to compare it to Ferrari or Lamborghini, but the Corvette isn't a hand built exotic with a 8,000 rpm V12. Which is fine, the Corvette is a different kind a car, and the performance per dollar is still good. Corvette is the best sports car under $100k.

The corvette is a 55k car. The z06 isn't. Same with a Camaro SS and z/28. That's like the c250 and a c63. Base vs top of the line performance model. It would be like saying C Classes should be 40-60k then they throw out a 100k version. Edited September 7, 2015 by ccap41

[oldshurst442]

 

I have always said the Corvette should stick to being an affordable sports car. To me the Corvette should be in the $50-70k segment, but GM a few years ago was selling $125,000 Corvettes and $75,000 Camaros. That is no longer making affordable sports cars. That would be like Mazda making a $45,000 twin turbo V6 Miata, at that point it isn't a Miata any more.

I think GM and some Corvette fans want to compare it to Ferrari or Lamborghini, but the Corvette isn't a hand built exotic with a 8,000 rpm V12. Which is fine, the Corvette is a different kind a car, and the performance per dollar is still good. Corvette is the best sports car under $100k.

The corvette is a 55k car. The z06 isn't. Same with a Camaro SS and z/28. That's like the c250 and a c63. Base vs top of the line performance model. It would be like saying C Classes should be 40-60k then they throw out a 100k version.

 

Yup...

 

I wonder why the AMG C Class is that much higher in price over the mainstream C Class?

The Z06 is exotic level engineering...

 

Directed @ SMK:

 

Or is it because you cant fathom American cars with exotic levels of engineering and performance that you have to be critical and sarcastic about them?

 

I know you mentioned that a Corvette is the best sports car south of $100 000, so you do recognize the performance and value that represents a Corvette, especially at that price point where the Z06 sells at, but dig a little deeper and start actually understanding what that actually means what a Z06 competes with....

 

For sure some of the other exotics might have  a better fit and finish...or nice, blemish free cow hide because of the cows that are used are not fenced in and the leather is worked on a bit more....the price difference reflects that...

 

But a Corvette was never intended to be a snooty high classed car.

Sure the Z06 reaches a price where one could consider it to be a snooty high classed car...and some people only denounce it because of bias and badge snobbery........but all that technology that the Corvette packs does come at a price...going fast and speed and cornering with state of the art technology does not come cheap. It costs money to develop and to manufacture....you got to pay to play....

 

Besides...BASE Corvettes were really never that affordable to begin with...Its not as if base Corvettes in history cost as much as Biscaynes or Chevy IIs or Novas or Vegas or Cavaliers or Sonics...and the highest of the trims were always out of reach into a price range deemed more for a Cadillac rather than a Chevy...

 

Nothing has changed since 1953...

From the prices,  to the state of the art technology used for the cars,  to the image portrayed, to the execution and layout...

 

But I guess, its 'funner' for you to also keep a certain image of your internet self to continue posting the way you do concerning Cadillac and Corvettes  to rile up some of the other posters in here.

 

I say great job...but the irony it seems, that you want to portray some sort of sophistication by liking M-B to distance yourself with Cadillac and Corvette because somehow its beneath you to like those cars, yet the way your posting style is, reflects YOUR redneck nature...

 

You could take away the  girl  from the village but you cant take the village outta of the girl.

Edited September 7, 2015 by oldshurst442

[El Kabong]

The real irony in all this is that the eternal darling of German sports-car fans was, for the first thirty years or so of it's life, an ill-tempered, twitchy thing with a non-existent heater and ergonomics so bad that they required a masters degree to figure out.

The Corvette has usually put performance ahead of comfort and luxury. But as with most other segments, the pre-bankruptcy attitude of "good enough" no longer applies. Frankly, it can't apply anymore. So, you wind up with a Corvette that slaps around AWD Lambos and twin-turbo McLarens on one of the most difficult road courses in the United States, and all the while you're surrounded with fine aluminum, leather, and carbon-fibre, with the HUD clear and colourful on the windshield and your Performance Data being recorded for bragging rights later. Even Top Gear can find no fault with it, despite it losing much of its price advantage over there, to say nothing of the wheel being on the wrong side.

Now, THAT'S a sports car.

[hyperv6]

Well the Corvette has become two cars. One is the affordable sports car. You can still buy a Corvette for a price less than a 4 cylinder Boxster and still get better resale out of it.

 

Second version is the Affordable Supercar. For less then $100K you can buy a car that will best cars 3X the price. With the C8 they may create a class of sports car never seen before an Exotic that is affordable able to do things never imagined.  As Jeremy Clarkson said of the Stingray the Corvette was a car that was a great car for the price and now it is just a great car.

 

To be honest anything under $100K today is a bargin as even the price of a Malibu and Fusion today are closing in and even over $40K today do paying $60K for a Stingray and $90K for a Z06 is not all that out of line.

 

The fact is no cars are cheap anymore. I just saw a Snyder from China. $6995.99 and you only get three wheels!

 

As for the Z/28 you can get a GT coupe that can run laps all day, that is street able and is as fast and stable as a 911 GT2 at nearly twice the price.

 

What I find telling here is how far the Mustang GT is behind the older SS 1LE. Word is the new base SS will be as fast or faster then the 1LE and if that is true there will be large gap. Based on what we have seen with the Alpha cars I expect the Mustang may not be as close as I expected to the new Camaro. GM engineers have really stepped up their game in suspensions and we are reaping the results.

 

442 you can take the village snob out of the village but he will then just be a snob no matter where you take him even when proven wrong.

Edited September 7, 2015 by hyperv6

[El Kabong]

I've been saying it since the numbers for both cars have been dropping: the Camaro SS is going to walk away from the GT and it's going to give a GT350 headaches, especially if it doesn't have the Track Package. That's just the reality of competing with a carmaker with the deeper toolbox and a hankering to use it effectively.

[oldshurst442]

I've been saying it since the numbers for both cars have been dropping: the Camaro SS is going to walk away from the GT and it's going to give a GT350 headaches, especially if it doesn't have the Track Package. That's just the reality of competing with a carmaker with the deeper toolbox and a hankering to use it effectively.

And a company that is not tied down by marketing "geniuses" selling marketing catch phrases...

[smk4565]

Clarkson liked the Stingray, but he actually didn't like the Z06 when he did a review on it for either the website or a newspaper.  He thought the Z06 only worked on a track, and on normal streets and in normal driving was not as good as the Stringray since it was louder, rougher, jerkier, harsh riding, etc.

 

One wonders why if Ford loves Ecoboosting so much, why don't they put a couple turbos on the 5.0 V8?   Because you know what is better than a twin turbo V6, a twin turbo V8.

[hyperv6]

SMK it is time to grasp reality here. What Jeremy offered were subjective comments that are generally not echoed by others. One mans harsh is another mans performance. Lets put this also into context too, anything that can compete in this time class performance wise will also share similar attributes or they will share slower times like the McLaren.

As for the Ecoboost you had better pay good attention. The Ford V8 is not for long unless Ford management has a change of heart. If you note the new Ford GT has a ......... V6 TT. There is no V8 even non Turbo offered. How about their show case Raptor truck? Hmmm well no there is no V8 offered it will be a V6 TT.  Word is that the top line Mustang may be also seeing the same engine V6 TT per reports that have leaked out. Time will tell on this one.  The fact is Ford is unlikely to TT the V8 as they would have done it for the top performance models already but chose a V6. That should speak volumes to those who play in the real world.

 

Kabong I really think you are right. The numbers from Cadillac are pretty tough and the Camaro will see similar numbers. The Mustangs so far posted are now giving the times needed to meet the challenge. The key I think is not jus the engine but for once the Camaro is the complete package. I have said this is the first Camaro that was built as a no compromise car and got the proper funding to do it right for once.

 

I think some people will have their eyes opened with the SS and just wait till the upper models show up. You may be able to rev the Mustang to 8,000 RPM but then again you might have to in having any change of keeping close.

 

These are just the examples of the New GM Culture that is enabling their staffs to do what they can and not wait to be told to do it. This also is the net gain of proper funding for once.

 

Now as long as Sergio does not F up the momentum in a take over fight GM should see some long term gains and progress in product and sales.

[G. David Felt]

The CTS-V and Corvette posted great times, the CTS-V with 640 hp should post the fastest sedan time, no sedans really went much over 550 hp before last year.   The Corvette has always posted great performance per dollar, the Z06 has always been a good track car.  It is impressive that the Corvette beat the Hurcan and McLaren, because those are exotics built for speed. the level of performance you get for the price of a Corvette is amazing, it just seems to still have a bit of a redneck muscle car image, doesn't seem as cool as an Aston Martin or something like that.

 

What I found most surprising is the Ecoboost Mustang was slower than a John Cooper Works Mini and a Golf GTI.  That is a pretty weak showing.  The Mustang was barely faster than the Miata which has like 160 hp.

 

Kinda like how the MB AMG are still a Nazi driven white supremacist focused auto. To superior for anyone but white people to drive or own and was clearly passed over by the REDNECK MUSCLE CAR!

 

If we were to all slight auto's with preconceived ideas, then you truly only see the superior white race and their auto being the only thing out there.

 

In all honesty this is how we never can move on, no matter how much education should be the great equalizer to allow men and woman to communicate and debate ideas, when you have to use a derogatory comment like this about something that bested your prized MB products, you show a racist attitude that is a shame.

 

When will some of you guys GROW UP and discuss the technology and auto's for what they are WITHOUT having to use slander of this nature. Does it really mater if a person is from the small mountain town or a major city, likes wearing current fashion or is more comfortable in blue jeans and a t-shirt?

 

Is this how you feel about people that do not fit into the norm of hetrosexual society? That if you are not part of the given hetro married crowd you are less than the rest?

 

SMK you need to grow up, drop the name calling and back handed slander and focus on the auto's or move onto another forum. I am tired of you and the MT crowd that CANNOT focus on the passion of the auto's and debate the merits without being so ignorant.

[El Kabong]

Don't tar me with that brush.

[ccap41]

 

 

I have always said the Corvette should stick to being an affordable sports car. To me the Corvette should be in the $50-70k segment, but GM a few years ago was selling $125,000 Corvettes and $75,000 Camaros. That is no longer making affordable sports cars. That would be like Mazda making a $45,000 twin turbo V6 Miata, at that point it isn't a Miata any more.

I think GM and some Corvette fans want to compare it to Ferrari or Lamborghini, but the Corvette isn't a hand built exotic with a 8,000 rpm V12. Which is fine, the Corvette is a different kind a car, and the performance per dollar is still good. Corvette is the best sports car under $100k.

The corvette is a 55k car. The z06 isn't. Same with a Camaro SS and z/28. That's like the c250 and a c63. Base vs top of the line performance model. It would be like saying C Classes should be 40-60k then they throw out a 100k version.

 

Yup...

 

I wonder why the AMG C Class is that much higher in price over the mainstream C Class?

The Z06 is exotic level engineering...

 

 

Welllllll in al fairness the C63 AMG S does start at 72k. But, that is nearly double what a C Class starts at. Whereas the Z06 is a 30% increase in price over the base Stingray the C63 is about 47% price increase over the base C Class.  Just throwin out some numbers..to go with what we both said, really. I think 'today' they are both pretty exotic level of engineering as the C63 isn't really a German muscle car like it used to be. Where it was just a big engine, lots of low end torque, and didn't turn all that well(compared it its priced competition - guarantee it still drove freakin good).

[Frisky Dingo]

Wow, I see several things of note.

 

First off, bravo to GM for the times their products turned in. While the CTS-V should have had no difficulty setting a new record for sport sedans, I am admittedly impressed by the Z06's time. I would not have thought it'd beat out the 650S, and I thought the GT3 would give it all it could handle. The ATS V cars were about where I expected- close to the M4's time.

 

This was a very embarrassing showing for Ford. The EcoBoost is just pathetic, and even the GT had a poor lap. People talked about this being on par with the new M4 in terms of performance, but it barely beat the OLD M3. Makes me wonder if the GT350 is going to be able to put up the times Ford is implying. Does anyone really see this thing beating out a GT3?

 

Speaking of GT3, say what you will about it being beat by the Vette, but that is an incredibly impressive performance. The next car with less than 500hp is 3 and hald seconds back, and it lapped faster than many mega powered exotics have over the years. It's only been beat out by near-racecars and cars with huge power advantages. I'd love to see the new RS get a go-round.

 

The RC-F, to the surprise of nobody, is underwhelming. Over 5 secs slower than the M4, and slower than even the Mustang GT. Holy crap Lexus.

[ccap41]

Looking strictly at lap times and cars(I know different years and different conditions...) there are some crazy observations as well:

 

With the CTS-V running a blistering 2.56.8 the cars that it beat are pretty incredible.. I'll start with the least impressive and get to the ost impressive. IMO

2013 GT500: 3.00.6

2013 ZL1: 2.57.5

2013 C63 Black Series: 2.58.0 

2007 Z06: 2.58.2

2006 Ford GT: 3.00.7

2014 R8 V10: 2.57.5

 

Those are super cars. We already know how nuts the Z06 is and knocking down $X00,000 cars but a sedan beating super cars..even older is damn impressive to me.

[El Kabong]

This was a very embarrassing showing for Ford. The EcoBoost is just pathetic, and even the GT had a poor lap. People talked about this being on par with the new M4 in terms of performance, but it barely beat the OLD M3. Makes me wonder if the GT350 is going to be able to put up the times Ford is implying. Does anyone really see this thing beating out a GT3?...

 

The RC-F, to the surprise of nobody, is underwhelming. Over 5 secs slower than the M4, and slower than even the Mustang GT. Holy crap Lexus.

It's just two examples of brands that don't live up to the hype. I've been downvoted mercilessly for saying it, but it's true-the numbers are all there to back up what I say. It is also the major reason why you shouldn't read every press release that falls into your lap and take it at face value.

Hey, I'd LOVE to be able to say that the Mustang is a great car. And in GT350 form I believe it will be the best ponycar that Ford is capable of making. But again, before you accuse me, take a good, hard look at the numbers. The EB is slow, the GT is tubby and, when optioned like most examples on the showroom floor will be, not exactly cheap.

As for Lexus... Well, what can you say. Toyota zombies will buy anything they produce. Sad, because you just know that even a CTS-VSport sedan would probably light this thing up.

[Frisky Dingo]

Looking strictly at lap times and cars(I know different years and different conditions...) there are some crazy observations as well:

 

With the CTS-V running a blistering 2.56.8 the cars that it beat are pretty incredible.. I'll start with the least impressive and get to the ost impressive. IMO

2013 GT500: 3.00.6

2013 ZL1: 2.57.5

2013 C63 Black Series: 2.58.0 

2007 Z06: 2.58.2

2006 Ford GT: 3.00.7

2014 R8 V10: 2.57.5

 

Those are super cars. We already know how nuts the Z06 is and knocking down $X00,000 cars but a sedan beating super cars..even older is damn impressive to me.

 

 

In their defense, a lot of that gap is due to tire technology and outright power.

[ccap41]

 

Looking strictly at lap times and cars(I know different years and different conditions...) there are some crazy observations as well:

 

With the CTS-V running a blistering 2.56.8 the cars that it beat are pretty incredible.. I'll start with the least impressive and get to the ost impressive. IMO

2013 GT500: 3.00.6

2013 ZL1: 2.57.5

2013 C63 Black Series: 2.58.0 

2007 Z06: 2.58.2

2006 Ford GT: 3.00.7

2014 R8 V10: 2.57.5

 

Those are super cars. We already know how nuts the Z06 is and knocking down $X00,000 cars but a sedan beating super cars..even older is damn impressive to me.

 

 

In their defense, a lot of that gap is due to tire technology and outright power.

 

I too thought about the tire tech. I mean from 9 years ago with the GT tires were "junk" compared to what is available on super cars now. But beating the R8 V10..whew..impressive. It is still crazy because even with the old tech tires it is/was still an incredible super car. Just looked it up and the rear tires are 315's, GoodYear Eagle F1 Supercar. I'm not trying to justify or say it is a great tire to today's standards, just showing you what it is, http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Goodyear&tireModel=Eagle+F1+Supercar&frontTire=345YR8F1SUPERCAR&rearTire=14YR9F1SUPERCAR&vehicleSearch=true&fromCompare1=yes&autoMake=Ford&autoYear=2006&autoModel=GT&autoModClar=

[Frisky Dingo]

Yeah, I'm not taking anything away from it, because it's true of all the contenders of the last few years. Just pointing out a factor than many often overlook.

[El Kabong]

This was a very embarrassing showing for Ford. The EcoBoost is just pathetic, and even the GT had a poor lap. People talked about this being on par with the new M4 in terms of performance, but it barely beat the OLD M3. Makes me wonder if the GT350 is going to be able to put up the times Ford is implying. Does anyone really see this thing beating out a GT3?...

 

The RC-F, to the surprise of nobody, is underwhelming. Over 5 secs slower than the M4, and slower than even the Mustang GT. Holy crap Lexus.

It's just two examples of brands that don't live up to the hype. I've been downvoted mercilessly for saying it, but it's true-the numbers are all there to back up what I say. It is also the major reason why you shouldn't read every press release that falls into your lap and take it at face value.

Hey, I'd LOVE to be able to say that the Mustang is a great car. And in GT350 form I believe it will be the best ponycar that Ford is capable of making. But again, before you accuse me, take a good, hard look at the numbers. The EB is slow, the GT is tubby and, when optioned like most examples on the showroom floor will be, not exactly cheap.

As for Lexus... Well, what can you say. Toyota zombies will buy anything they produce. Sad, because you just know that even a CTS-VSport sedan would probably light this thing up.

LOL@downvote. Guessing it wasn't a Toyota-humper :D

But on a serious note: you can talk about power, but don't forget that the weights have gone up over the years as well. Tire tech is the biggest difference between these numbers over the years IMO.

[Frisky Dingo]

In some cars, weight has gone up, in others, it's gone down.

[El Kabong]

In some cars, weight has gone up, in others, it's gone down.

By and large though, cars have been getting... uh, large. And while I get that the aero package on the CTS-V is functional, you've gotta have some pretty serious rubber on there to make it exceed 1g.

Edited September 8, 2015 by El Kabong

[surreal1272]

The CTS-V and Corvette posted great times, the CTS-V with 640 hp should post the fastest sedan time, no sedans really went much over 550 hp before last year.   The Corvette has always posted great performance per dollar, the Z06 has always been a good track car.  It is impressive that the Corvette beat the Hurcan and McLaren, because those are exotics built for speed. the level of performance you get for the price of a Corvette is amazing, it just seems to still have a bit of a redneck muscle car image, doesn't seem as cool as an Aston Martin or something like that.

 

What I found most surprising is the Ecoboost Mustang was slower than a John Cooper Works Mini and a Golf GTI.  That is a pretty weak showing.  The Mustang was barely faster than the Miata which has like 160 hp.

Show me one "redneck" driving near $100K Z06. Don't worry. I'll wait.

 

Olds is right. That was a back handed compliment with no merit.

I have always said the Corvette should stick to being an affordable sports car.  To me the Corvette should be in the $50-70k segment, but GM a few years ago was selling $125,000 Corvettes and $75,000 Camaros.  That is no longer making affordable sports cars.  That would be like Mazda making a $45,000 twin turbo V6 Miata, at that point it isn't a Miata any more.

 

I think GM and some Corvette fans want to compare it to Ferrari or Lamborghini, but the Corvette isn't a hand built exotic with a 8,000 rpm V12.  Which is fine, the Corvette is a different kind a car, and the performance per dollar is still good.   Corvette is the best sports car under $100k.

Silly comparison as the Vette is still offered at barely $50K new and Chevrolet still has plenty of $30K Camaros. It's called "choices" and it's a good thing. 

Edited September 8, 2015 by surreal1272

[cp-the-nerd]

 

 

This was a very embarrassing showing for Ford. The EcoBoost is just pathetic, and even the GT had a poor lap. People talked about this being on par with the new M4 in terms of performance, but it barely beat the OLD M3. Makes me wonder if the GT350 is going to be able to put up the times Ford is implying. Does anyone really see this thing beating out a GT3?...

 

The RC-F, to the surprise of nobody, is underwhelming. Over 5 secs slower than the M4, and slower than even the Mustang GT. Holy crap Lexus.

It's just two examples of brands that don't live up to the hype. I've been downvoted mercilessly for saying it, but it's true-the numbers are all there to back up what I say. It is also the major reason why you shouldn't read every press release that falls into your lap and take it at face value.

Hey, I'd LOVE to be able to say that the Mustang is a great car. And in GT350 form I believe it will be the best ponycar that Ford is capable of making. But again, before you accuse me, take a good, hard look at the numbers. The EB is slow, the GT is tubby and, when optioned like most examples on the showroom floor will be, not exactly cheap.

As for Lexus... Well, what can you say. Toyota zombies will buy anything they produce. Sad, because you just know that even a CTS-VSport sedan would probably light this thing up.

LOL@downvote. Guessing it wasn't a Toyota-humper :D

But on a serious note: you can talk about power, but don't forget that the weights have gone up over the years as well. Tire tech is the biggest difference between these numbers over the years IMO.

 

 

Hey man, I'm going to be straight with you here: you're goading people into downvoting you. Leave out the trolling bits, it's getting played out. When people legit downvote you for nothing, rise above it rather than perpetuating awkward sh*t nobody wants to see on the forum. Don't blame one person either, because I've found myself cancelling out childish downvotes on both sides.

[El Kabong]

In some cars, weight has gone up, in others, it's gone down.

By and large though, cars have been getting... uh, large. And while I get that the aero package on the CTS-V is functional, you've gotta have some pretty serious rubber on there to make it exceed 1g.

ROFL@the overactive imagination that found a reason to downvote THIS :D

...seriously, dood. Whoever you are, at least raise your hand so we know who to laugh at

[El Kabong]

And no.

I ain't gonna change the way I post. I didn't when I was at minus 20, I'm not now. I cite third-party sources, I make good points, and I enjoy myself. I mean, if someone WANTS to file a hurt feelings report, I can't stop them.

But I'll sure have a laugh at them while they do so.

[cp-the-nerd]

I'm just saying if I had a f@#kin dollar for every time you mentioned downvotes, I'd go buy something from this year's lightning lap.

[El Kabong]

I mentioned frickin' TIRE TECHNOLOGY. How do you not laugh at crap like that?

[cp-the-nerd]

I mentioned frickin' TIRE TECHNOLOGY. How do you not laugh at crap like that?

Because I take rubber to over 1g every time I put on a condom, fool.

[hyperv6]

Tires help but the truth Is many of these cars are using similar rubber.

Also last year they said the Z/24 was all rubber till they put the ZR1 tires on that are harder and it still turned nearly similar laps. Tires help but the rest the car is a whole package here not just a partial package like we used to get. The new cars are not just bigger tires and a rear sway bar anymore.

To be fair to the Mustang it is better than the car it replaced. Also the Turbo 4 is no GT but it is good for a 4 banger in a car that is not all as light as it once was. It is just here to set the pace for more engine options as we move forward into CAFE heavy times. The Camaro 4 is not going to be an SS either but both Turbo cars will lend themselves to cheap and easy upgrades in power as for small amounts of money you can add 50+ HP.

 

I think the Camaro will gain an advantage with the extra refinement and the extra money it cost and will give a little more everything and lower laps because of it. Does that make the Mustang a bad car? No but the Camaro may just be a little more compelling,. In this game it has always been back and fourth and now is Chevys turn,

[G. David Felt]

 

 

 

 

I would totally agree with you as Tire Technology has improved, so has performance of all auto's.

[G. David Felt]

Very true to why Hyper has said about the back and forth between the mustang and camero. Now it is Chevy's turn and it will be interesting to see what they do.

[Frisky Dingo]

I don't recall anyone saying one particular car's performance was on account of it's tires, or that new cars were just 'bigger tires and sway bars'.

 

That said, if you were to take the top three advancements of performance cars, it's definitely tires, driving aids/modes, and transmissions. No contest.

[El Kabong]

I have no problem with that. Like I said, any tire that allows a 4400-lb sedan to pull over 1g sustained is insane.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

Just for some perspective, Nascar Sprint Cup cars weight about 3400lbs, but sustain 4-5 G's for about 15-20 seconds on some tracks.  So less mass, but far more acceleration, in the Force X Mass equation.

[El Kabong]

Thirty degree banking plays a part in that as well.

[surreal1272]

Thirty degree banking plays a part in that as well.

The banking plays a HUGE part in pulling those Gs.

[hyperv6]

I don't recall anyone saying one particular car's performance was on account of it's tires, or that new cars were just 'bigger tires and sway bars'.

 

That said, if you were to take the top three advancements of performance cars, it's definitely tires, driving aids/modes, and transmissions. No contest.

Not entirely true.

Tires in many cases are now getting smaller. Cadillac has tried to cut the size of the tires and wheels on most models to cut weight and unsprung weight. They are not going to 20-22 inch wheels as they can get the same or better results with smaller lighter wheels and tires.

Sway bars are not bigger but better matched along with softer springs and magnetic struts and shocks.

The old days of bigger tires, bars and stiffer springs are over and better design and integration is what is working. The secret are things like GM's is Mark Stielow who is one of the leading suspension engineers and one of the many who has been freed to do what they can not just what they are told.

The major move at GM was the disbanding of the GM Performance Division. This high skilled group took poor cars and made them into super cars. Now they were taken and integrated in new car platforms from the start.

Computer engineering and the idea that less is more like many Euro models have done for years. While GM made cars that were amazing on the test track they failed in the real world. While testing at the Ring may be cliché it really give the extreme conditions of the real world roads and not a perfectly paved black lake or race track.

Smart engineering is where companies are making progress. At GM empowered engineers are where they have made the greatest gains. For too many years they had the best engineers but kept them on a leash and underfunded. Today these engineers are empowered and funded to a degree we have not seen in years. That folks is why we have cars like the CTS and Z06 able to do things that pre GM bail out was seen as impossible for a Front Engine Sports Car and a 4 door sedan.

This is more about people and not so much just technology alone. Check the track record of GM's improved drivetrains and suspensions and it is tied to the arrival of Bob Lutz who changed the Culture. I know a driveline engineer who said Bob told them he had their backs and now do what you can do and wait to be told to do it. Hence the ZR1 engine.

The sheet metal gaps were a mess and Bob asked if they could do better and the engineer said yes but they were not told to do it. Bob said done wait and just give me the best gaps you can. This became the 08 Malibu the first GM product to have class leading gaps.

The GM Performance division was given room to work under Bob with John Henrency and they made cars like a Tahoe and Cobalt turn times at the ring right with a Camaro SS.

The tricks they used is some technology but most is just plain good engineering.

Edited September 9, 2015 by hyperv6

[Frisky Dingo]

 

I don't recall anyone saying one particular car's performance was on account of it's tires, or that new cars were just 'bigger tires and sway bars'.

 

That said, if you were to take the top three advancements of performance cars, it's definitely tires, driving aids/modes, and transmissions. No contest.

Not entirely true.

Tires in many cases are now getting smaller. Cadillac has tried to cut the size of the tires and wheels on most models to cut weight and unsprung weight. They are not going to 20-22 inch wheels as they can get the same or better results with smaller lighter wheels and tires.

Sway bars are not bigger but better matched along with softer springs and magnetic struts and shocks.

The old days of bigger tires, bars and stiffer springs are over and better design and integration is what is working. The secret are things like GM's is Mark Stielow who is one of the leading suspension engineers and one of the many who has been freed to do what they can not just what they are told.

The major move at GM was the disbanding of the GM Performance Division. This high skilled group took poor cars and made them into super cars. Now they were taken and integrated in new car platforms from the start.

Computer engineering and the idea that less is more like many Euro models have done for years. While GM made cars that were amazing on the test track they failed in the real world. While testing at the Ring may be cliché it really give the extreme conditions of the real world roads and not a perfectly paved black lake or race track.

Smart engineering is where companies are making progress. At GM empowered engineers are where they have made the greatest gains. For too many years they had the best engineers but kept them on a leash and underfunded. Today these engineers are empowered and funded to a degree we have not seen in years. That folks is why we have cars like the CTS and Z06 able to do things that pre GM bail out was seen as impossible for a Front Engine Sports Car and a 4 door sedan.

This is more about people and not so much just technology alone. Check the track record of GM's improved drivetrains and suspensions and it is tied to the arrival of Bob Lutz who changed the Culture. I know a driveline engineer who said Bob told them he had their backs and now do what you can do and wait to be told to do it. Hence the ZR1 engine.

The sheet metal gaps were a mess and Bob asked if they could do better and the engineer said yes but they were not told to do it. Bob said done wait and just give me the best gaps you can. This became the 08 Malibu the first GM product to have class leading gaps.

The GM Performance division was given room to work under Bob with John Henrency and they made cars like a Tahoe and Cobalt turn times at the ring right with a Camaro SS.

The tricks they used is some technology but most is just plain good engineering.

 

 

 

I'm not sure what you are arguing here.

 

I didn't say newer cars were using bigger tires, although many of them are. I said tire technology has advanced greatly. And it has.

 

As for GM's cars, I'm not specifically counting those cars as examples of driver systems improving, but on the whole, cars have gotten more an more dependent on advanced traction and stability control systems.