Chrysler News: Chrysler Surprises Dealers With Next-Gen Charger, Barracuda, Grand Cherokee Trailhawk

[William Maley]

Fiat Chrysler Automobile held their annual dealers meeting in Las Vegas and had some surprises in store for the dealers who attended.

 

Automotive News learned from several dealers that FCA would possibly be bringing out up to 30 new or refreshed products within the next two years. Some of the products include the next-generation Dodge Charger which will look more like the 1999 concept designed by Tom Gale, and a Dodge Barracuda convertible. Both models will be underpinned by the Alfa Romeo Giulia's platform.

 

Other models that were shown to dealers include,

• An Alfa Romeo SUV which is expected to be underpinned by the Giulia's platform
• The standard and Abarth versions of the Fiat 124 Spyder
• Next-generation Jeep Wrangler which was described by one dealer as staying "pretty true to its current form'
• Jeep Grand Wagoneer SUV with seating for eight people
• Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT Trackhawk
  

Source: Automotive News (Subscription Required)

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[hyperv6]

Well lets see if they get to them in two years. Many of these products have already been pushed back before. With Sergio's goals for units at Alfa and other brands that are at some crazy numbers it could change these plans too. 68K units to 400K units at Alfa by 2018? Not likely.

I am not sure Jeep and Ram can help fund all the changes he has already planned and these unless he changes his numbers again.

 

The real issue may be the engines. If the stories on the Jeep web site are correct the Hemi is gone by 2019. That matches the end of the LX too the last I saw. They plan to replace it with a Turbo V6 and Turbo 4 cylinder models. While I have no doubt about there not being a lack of power this will still sting the V8 customer hard. To go from a Hellcat to a V6 that sounds like the Alfa motor that has a school bus sound to it?

 

I have concerns here.

 

Not sure even how an plug in Mini Van will do. Minivans are really over anymore and the CUV is where the sales are all going.

[oldshurst442]

I love that 1999 Charger concept, but that I hope the Giulia platform to house a 1999  Charger concept look-a-like better be a stretched version, because the Giulia looks to be too short for that 1999 Charger...especially if FCA wants to get the right proportions to really make it resemble the 1999 concept. That 1999 concept is a long car....

 

And Im stoked for the return of a Barracuda. It says convertible...so Im guessing a Dodge Barracuda would be the convertible version of the next generation Challenger?

Im OK with that...

 

EDIT:

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/08/26/barracuda-grand-cherokee-trackhawk-promised/

 

The link above states that the Barracuda will be offered in coupe and convertible form and will be smaller than the Challenger....

 

Im still OK with that.

 

Im stoked with the new Charger...hopefully it will be as long or longer than the current generation and less bulky...more slender...like the concept...with the same proportions...that 1999 Charger concept is pure Americana...I miss those days when all American cars cars looked more or less like that....sleek and slender long cars with long hoods and short decks....and sometimes long hoods and somewhat short decks...but still technically longish decks...if you know what I mean...

 

 

About the V8 part...I wish it would be a part of the Mopar mainstream performance card...but the way the automotive industry is going....I wont hold my breath....and if I continue living in Montreal (gas prices are high in Quebec)....I doubt Ill be a customer of a V8 car anytime soon either...

Edited August 27, 2015 by oldshurst442

[Intrepidation]

I'd like to see the Giulia's platform spawn midsize Chrysler and/or Dodge variants, not just the big Charger/300C.

[Frisky Dingo]

Looking forward to see what comes of this, especially the Cuda and Charger, but news of the Hemi's demise is very disheartening. 

[TAF]

The V8 is NOT going away. Sigh...some people will believe anything you tell them.

[G. David Felt]

Believe it when FCA actually funds it and stays committed to it.

[TAF]

They already are...the next hemi 5.7 will be released with the trucks and the new SRT V8 will be with the new Charger/Challenger/Durango. Helps when you are part of the dealergroup getting this information. 

[Frisky Dingo]

The V8 is NOT going away. Sigh...some people will believe anything you tell them.

 

Even if it's only going away in the cars, it's still sad news.

 

This new Charger being built on the Guilia platform, is it going to support a V8? I find it kind of difficult to believe, though it's not possible.

[El Kabong]

As soon as the Giulia hit the ground I said that Mopar would need to ride the crap outta the thing to make it work. Thankfully, they are. GM showed the way with Alpha, and the approach is ready-made for an outfit with a performance rep like Mopar. Good news.

[TAF]

 

The V8 is NOT going away. Sigh...some people will believe anything you tell them.

 

Even if it's only going away in the cars, it's still sad news.

 

This new Charger being built on the Guilia platform, is it going to support a V8? I find it kind of difficult to believe, though it's not possible.

 

 

I see the V8 becoming less an option on the regular models. For SRT no...Ralph has made it clear to us SRT owners and Dealer Networks this is NOT the plan. However...caveat being all plans can change of course.

[Stew]

HA!  Of course hyperV6 STILL finds issue since he clearly simply hates the brand and WANTS it to fail.  This is all good news, as already predicted so no surprise.  And a refreshed Hemi is already in the works, though I agree it may become less of an option in lower models. 

[Stew]

Also, the Alfa's platform should be flexible like GM's Alpha, allowing different wheelbases and engine and transmission configurations.

[regfootball]

"Chrysler surprises dealers by remaining in business"

[El Kabong]

Beat Ford in retail sales in June!

[Drew Dowdell]

The "C" part of FCA is actually doing pretty well. It's the "F" part that is pretty well Effed. Their hail-Mary will be this new RWD platform.

[El Kabong]

The "C" part of FCA is actually doing pretty well. It's the "F" part that is pretty well Effed. Their hail-Mary will be this new RWD platform.

Fiat/Alfa will not succeed without it, that's for sure. They also need a hot hatch replacement, stat.

[smk4565]

Chrysler does have a lot of good names.  Not always great products, but they come up with great names.  Intrepid, Stealth, Barricuda, Charger, Challenger, Imperial, Avenger, Prowler, Viper, etc.  They all sound big, scary or dangerous. 

[daves87rs]

The charger ones interests me....

 

Already Jeep mules out there....hearing good things there.

[Stew]

"Chrysler surprises dealers by remaining in business"

 

Why would they not be?  Sales have increased every month for what, the last 5 years?  They also beat Ford in retail sales in june, so again, a haeful comment just to be a hateful comment.

Chrysler does have a lot of good names.  Not always great products, but they come up with great names.  Intrepid, Stealth, Barricuda, Charger, Challenger, Imperial, Avenger, Prowler, Viper, etc.  They all sound big, scary or dangerous. 

Right now they have a lot of great product and have in the past as well.  Everyone has duds, even Mercedes.......

[hyperv6]

Stew you had better get a grip and understand I do not hate Chrysler but I do hate Sergio and all that he Is doing as he is a bastard and cares less about the Chrysler cars.

 

The money he is taking from Jeep should be going to Chrysler not Alfa as this is where his volume is that he needs to survive. Instead he remains to pump it into the odd Alfa that will never meet his goals of 400,000 units by 2018.

 

Now be honest do you really think Alfa can move from 68,000 cars last year to 400,00o by 2018? If you can honestly think that you would have to be a fool.

FCA is riding with a major debt and Sergio needs money. He already is robbing Chrysler and now has made claims wants GM. It is all about money to save his F part of the corporation and he is getting desperate now because his plan has fallen flat as the rest of the investment and banking people are not willing to follow along with him.

 

Right now I fear that while the plans for Chrysler sound promising they are the last roll of the dice. If they do not execute these plans an build class leading cars the will not have the income to continue on beyond them. Just building better cars than you have Is not enough as they need to build better than anyone else right now to make real gains in not just volume but profits.

Ford and GM can get buy with a little less right now but Chrysler has some real issues. I think their only hope is to lose Sergio and get someone in that is really from the automotive segment.

 

I am far from the only one with these views. Here is the latest in a long line of stories on Sergio and the challenges of FCA in the future.

http://www.autoextremist.com/current/2015/8/31/the-full-sergio-a-truly-ugly-sight-to-behold.html

Stew you can continue to represent my feelings but you can not change the things and issues that lie ahead. I am in no way looking forward to saying I told you so in the future if this ends up going the way it appears to be going at this time. I pray Sergio is let go in 2018 and not extended to 2020 as he wants. As Peter has pointed out he is nothing but a bag man and he will kill Chrysler in the end to save the Euro brands. He has no love other than their money for them. You had better wake up to this before it is too late.. Only cries from the base market Chrysler lovers may changes this if it is not already too late.

As Pete has pointed out FCA is one economic down turn from another crisis. With the way Wall St is going that could easily happen again and they will still be years from the new product. The problem this time is there may not be a third bail out as how much money is a politician going to be willing to toss in to this bottomless pit under the present management?

I hope and pray that a suitable leader arrives in time for Chrysler. God knows we have already lost too many brands today as it is. While Chrysler is not my first choice I in no way want to see their demise. You need to get that through your thick diluted skull. I am on your side with reality playing a part of this. I know you hate to hear the truth but that is all that will save a brand like this from Sergio and he thieving ways.

Even the folks I know inside are not Sergio fans up in Auburn hills. He talks big but they are not feeling the needed love like they would like unless you are Jeep. Even then the money is not coming back to them at a time they would like to have it. The can just keeps getting kicked down the road on most other products.

Now stand there and tell us do you really thing Sergio is smart for pumping all of Jeeps profits into Alfa and not Chrysler first? Who has a better shot at increasing volume and profits to the levels he needs faster than Chrysler? He needs to increase Alfa to numbers they can never attain and he needs to find 2.5 Million more FCA units and that is not easy under the most perfect conditions by 2018

Now can you honestly say that he will attain the goal of 400K Alfa cars and 2.5 million more FCA units by 2018? Now put down the bias Kool-Aid and say it with a straight face?

This is more than just about selling cars. Everyone can sell cars but it is about making money and the big picture of volume and profits. You can sell a lot of cars but with no profits and models that are just termed better but not even in the same sentence with the top 4 in the segment are not the path to success. This is Why GM went and fixed the Malibu as fast as they did and will work hard to make it the best or one of the best in the segment. The last car was not bad but it fell short of the top cars and that is no way to make money these days. Just be good is no longer good enough. Chrysler is may have some of the best cars they have had in years but that is no longer good enough.

If Lee was here he would have kicked Sergio's ass back to Italy.

Edited September 2, 2015 by hyperv6

[El Kabong]

Even Mopar's biggest supporters (including me) have to be a bit dismayed at Sergio's latest outburst. He's unravelling pretty bad.

http://www.autoextremist.com

[hyperv6]

That is my point. Stew has this thing I hate Chrysler but the truth is I am just blunt about the issues they face and most of them lead back to Sergio.

 

He is not an automotive guy and he is not really much of a business man. As in the story he is more of a bag man for Fiat.

 

The fact is while Stew believes I have no love for Chrysler I am damn in love with them compared to Sergio.

 

If I were in his place the money would be going to Chrysler not Alfa. Chrysler would provide the volume and profits where to expect Alfa to create 400,000 in sales by 2018 are unlikely. 

If I am wrong here I would love to hear where I am going wrong by wanting to invest in Chrysler over Alfa and where am I missing the 328,000 sales Alfa is going to generate in 2 years. Anyone can you show us here these customer are lined up waiting for high priced Alfa cars vs. a better updated line of Chrysler cars.

Am I really wrong for wanting the Jeep money to go to Chrysler?
 

[G. David Felt]

That is my point. Stew has this thing I hate Chrysler but the truth is I am just blunt about the issues they face and most of them lead back to Sergio.

 

He is not an automotive guy and he is not really much of a business man. As in the story he is more of a bag man for Fiat.

 

The fact is while Stew believes I have no love for Chrysler I am damn in love with them compared to Sergio.

 

If I were in his place the money would be going to Chrysler not Alfa. Chrysler would provide the volume and profits where to expect Alfa to create 400,000 in sales by 2018 are unlikely. 

If I am wrong here I would love to hear where I am going wrong by wanting to invest in Chrysler over Alfa and where am I missing the 328,000 sales Alfa is going to generate in 2 years. Anyone can you show us here these customer are lined up waiting for high priced Alfa cars vs. a better updated line of Chrysler cars.

Am I really wrong for wanting the Jeep money to go to Chrysler?

 

You and everyone else like me know that Sergio is an Idiot and he is killing Jeep, Chrysler, Dodge and Ram all for trying to bring back a dead brand. Money should be used to pump up the 4 American name plates and not Alfa.

 

RIP Alfa, leave it in the history books.

 

More than anything this is his way of socialism in trying to make jobs for lazy people in Europe at the expense of america.

[cp-the-nerd]

What's all the nonsense about Sergio threatening a hostile takeover of GM? I can't see how that would work. GM is a bigger company whose shareholders should be well aware that they would stand to gain nothing from an FCA merger. It would essentially be reforming old GM, complete with dying brands.

[Stew]

I think the merger with GM idea is insane, BUT I see a reason or Alfa.  See that new Charger and Cuda?  They wouldn't have been able to make these without an expensive Alfa to put that platform under.  it makes sense.

[G. David Felt]

I think the merger with GM idea is insane, BUT I see a reason or Alfa.  See that new Charger and Cuda?  They wouldn't have been able to make these without an expensive Alfa to put that platform under.  it makes sense.

I disagree, you do not need an expensive Alfa to have a new platform for the Charger, Cuda, or any other Dodge, Chrysler auto. Yes some cost would go up but like VW if they build the platform right you can use is across all the auto divisions that are currently alive and not have to bring back a dead name plate.

[El Kabong]

I don't even mind the pretence that the Giulia platform is going to revive Alfa. It may, or it may not.

What I like about designing the platform to that standard is that it will already make it than it needs to be for Dodge and Chrysler, which makes them more desirable.

Edited September 2, 2015 by El Kabong

[TAF]

GM is owned by the banks and trusts not GM itself. They are the ones reaching out to Sergio...it's quite interesting.

[hyperv6]

Yes GM is owned by banks and investment firms but they are rejecting Sergio as they do not want to lose their ass. He is trying to con them into working with him and at this point his work is not paying off and his need to be in charge is not seen as a good thing.

 

Taf the banks and trust are not reaching out to Sergio. If they were the whole deal would be in the works. Sergio is needing them and they have so far rejected him just as GM has. This is why he has to go public which only hurts FCA as it makes them look as desperate as they might be.  Read the link above and get facts. If you truly love Chrysler you had better get informed as it is not pretty under the sweater mans care.

 

The real issue is this on the Alfa deal.

 

If the platform is leveraged out on the Chrysler models just what will it bring. Alfa so far is not offering a V8 nor at this point is there any plan for them. Will the platform even take one? We don't know yet.

The new Alfa at the ring on video was not all that impressive in handling. The car was all over the place. Was it a poor driver or was it the car? Note at one point it bottomed out hard and could be heard in the video. It also sounded like a School bus not good for a car at the price point.

 

Even assuming the new platform can be adapted like the Alpha at GM the real question is still how do you find 332,000 more Alfa buyers in two more years?

 

I recommend that all here take the time to look back at the goals set by Sergio and what he said Chrysler must do by 2018. The numbers I have given here are his not mine and that is why I call their future into question. He either has lied about what they need or he is very unrealistic about his goals.

 

Note he has missed goals before and it has hurt Fiat much.

He is not going to kill Jeep or Ram. They are getting investments as they should though the trucks were delayed a bit with coming product. The car range never did get the money like they should have and are behind where they should be at this point. Sales are down on the cars much and I do not expect the profits are much better with the discounts. It really is a good time to buy a LX right now.

 

If this tanks Jeep and Ram would survive. The Car lines are at risk because not many people want them. Sure the RWD has some desire but they need investment now and they have no small cars of real value anyone does not already have.

 

Alfa would live on as they can survive on price point under other management even at low volume. Fiat Hmm that is a tough one. There are so many issues only being bought out by some large China corporation like MG may work. Fiat is having a tough time here and elsewhere. The Sergio key is North America and Latin America and both are not all that interested.

 

Chrysler and FCA need a real leader that will save the company. But for now the investors are happy with taking the fast profit from Sergio and at some point will cut and run. With stocks dropping things can get ugly fast if there is no quick recovery of the market.

 

Like I said this is not a product issue as it is management and Sergio. Really look up what all Sergio is saying and doing and read up on what the market analyst are saying. It is not pretty now sitting on 8 billion dollars of debt and it is only getting worse.

Chrysler can show a profit but FCA is taking the money and running. There is only so much blood you can squeeze out of them before you lose them.

I never understood the Obama admin letting Fiat come in. They were unsound to start with and so far Sergio has made more wrong moves than good. Even the good moves like investing in Jeep are negated by putting the money into parts of the company that will never deliver the numbers he claims he needs.

[TAF]

Yes they are reaching out...your info is wack but I expected no better.

[hyperv6]

TAF till you back it up with creditable proof you are full of BS.

 

There always someone around checking out the deal but there is no real big support on this outside I would assume Exor who controls FCA and does not have enough money to pull of the deal on their own. Sergio is also VP there so that one is meaningless.

 

I will not say that more could get involved but as of now the many firms and people Sergio has contacted most have ignored him and most others said not interested.

 

The business sector has said the consolidation is not a bad idea but the problem is with the two companies it is not all that clean and easy. Most buyers of each brand dislike the other. You think killing Pontiac was tough just imagine if you had to kill one of the two truck lines. That alone would render one company nearly worthless as they account for much of the income.

 

So lets have the names and companies lined up backing old Sergio. If there are so many where are they and who are they.

Some venture groups did buy in but that is not an indicator of a take over. Most rating groups and banks are listing GM stock to grow and have recommended buying.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/3480716-5-reasons-why-gm-will-return-to-52-week-highs

5 Reasons Why GM Will Return To 52-Week Highs

Sep. 1, 2015 3:22 AM ET | About: General Motors Company (GM)

Summary

•GM shares are too cheap to ignore after a recent market pullback.

•A $5 billion share buyback, a strong balance sheet and a 4.5% dividend yield, could limit potential downside risks.

•China fears appear overblown and weaker sales in that country could be offset by lower commodity prices which significantly benefits GM.

•A $49 analyst price target for GM shares seems very reasonable as this implies a PE ratio of just about 10 times earnings. A $49 analyst price target for GM shares

If the price goes up this will make Sergio's attempt even more expensive and take even more money he has little of. There are more people willing to invest in GM for their potential growth over the public short term looting of Sergio.

[hyperv6]

http://www.thestreet.com/story/13274792/1/fiat-chrysler-gm-tie-up-is-sergio-marchionne-s-impossible-dream.html

Here is an interesting take from the financial world on what Sergio is up to.

This is big picture stuff and we are not dealing with a normal businessman. His ego and his tactics are much different. The key word is Ego as he puts himself first before all other things. That is some cases makes for a well driven businessman. At other times it can run a company or companies into the ground.

For us here to take into account all that is in play we have to look beyond the auto part of this and the people/personal and financial part really is in play.

Then if you do move forward how do you merge two companies that have loyalty on the level of the North and South post Civil war? While saving money it would be a post merger nightmare for product planners as you will not win with any moves you make. Can you imagine killing one of the two trucks? How about killing a Hemi and just keeping the Chevy LT? You think the Mopar boys would be happy with that? How about trying to sell a Fiat 500 at a Chevy dealer? Even worse how do you get rid of all the dealers? GM has too many now and Chrysler is not exactly under staffed for their needs in the dealer department now either.

This is one of those deals you can work numbers on paper to suit your needs but on the people and product side to the public it would be a nightmare. This would be the killing of Pontiac on a megaton scale.

I expect GM to win the most of the product side as it has most of the newest platforms and most of the engineers etc. Sergio has no love for Chrysler anyways and I expect he would sacrifice much of their product.

Either way when you consider the public side of this there are no winners here. That may be the most important part. No one goes to McDonalds to get a Whopper. Makes on wonder how many customers would be lost in this kind of deal if he could ever find a way to make it work.

[hyperv6]

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/95078a10-1699-11e5-9883-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3kgsiipgj

While some recent funds have purchased in they have appeared not hostel and are banking on the increase in stock values based on expected gains on their own.

He has trouble on his own home front as sales as of July the sales have dropped at Alfa and market watchers are nor convinced he will pull off his key part of Chrysler recovery of 400,000 Alf units including 150,000 in America.

http://www.autonews.com/article/20150629/OEM/306299974/analysts-doubt-sergios-lofty-alfa-goals

I don't think he made this goal along with many others too.

http://www.toledoblade.com/Automotive/2011/09/13/Marchionne-affirms-Fiat-Chrysler-goal-of-6-million-cars-a-year-by-2014-despite-uncertainty.html

He has yet to sell his goal of 50K Fiats in one year and at this point they are not even half way there this year.

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01/fiat-500-sales-figures.html

[G. David Felt]

Sergio Socialist plan is FAILING on a MAJOR way. The Board of FCA would be Wise to CUT him loose NOW and bring in a real Auto Business Man!

[hyperv6]

They want or he wants to put himself in charge at Ferrari per rumors.

He is bringing money to the Agnelli family and they will let him run this all in the ground if he brings them more money. They also have no love for Chrysler and it is just another source of money to be bleed.

This is all about money, ego and power and nothing else on Sergio's side.

[hyperv6]

Here is the Giulia in action.

http://www.autoblog.it/post/736914/alfa-romeo-giulia-quadrifoglio-verde-al-nurburgring-video

Is that a missed shift or bottoming out at 37 seconds? Bottoming out should not be!

Here is the CTSV and V Sport.

http://gmauthority.com/blog/2014/10/2016-cadillac-cts-v-shows-almost-no-body-roll-on-the-ring/

http://www.carscoops.com/2013/08/watch-new-2014-cadillac-cts-vsport-lap.html

Compare. Note the Benz and BMW are as composed as the Cadillac.

Edited September 4, 2015 by hyperv6

[G. David Felt]

WOW, that was a hard bottom out at 37 seconds but also the car is just not stable on the road it is all over or I guess they will blame it on the driver who was all over. Nothing like a solid Cadillac, BMW or MB.

[Drew Dowdell]

I watched it a few times and I think it's a missed shift

[hyperv6]

Even if it is a missed shift the Cadillac with the new programming and struts can make an armature look like a pro.

The Alfa here is rolling so much in the corners it is almost scary While they may have not had their best driver in the car the car looks uncomfortable in the corners whole the Cadillac looks almost slow even under WOT in the corners. It almost looks like they have the sway bars off the car.

I will reserve the final impression till the testers get it to review. Could be more going on here than we know in being fair. I would expect Alfa would do better than this. They do make quirky odd cars but they do know how to make them handle.

[G. David Felt]

Even if it is a missed shift the Cadillac with the new programming and struts can make an armature look like a pro.

The Alfa here is rolling so much in the corners it is almost scary While they may have not had their best driver in the car the car looks uncomfortable in the corners whole the Cadillac looks almost slow even under WOT in the corners. It almost looks like they have the sway bars off the car.

I will reserve the final impression till the testers get it to review. Could be more going on here than we know in being fair. I would expect Alfa would do better than this. They do make quirky odd cars but they do know how to make them handle.

Or Alfa resurrection is making cars that handle like the 1980's

 

Either way, I think they should have left the name plate in the history books. Dead is dead on this line. No need to bring back their garbage to the world.

[hyperv6]

 Alfa is a  odd car and not always the most reliable car but they are a fun car. I would not call it garbage as it has a small following that like it like many like Saab for all the odd reasons. Alfa is the Italian Saab.

 

I think garbage is a little harsh. It may not be the best at anything but it still can be a fast and per this video a challenging drive.

 

Hell MG cars were never the global standard but still a fun car to drive when they were together.

I like Alfa but I would not bank on it to save my corporation.

Edited September 4, 2015 by hyperv6

[oldshurst442]

 Alfa is a  odd car and not always the most reliable car but they are a fun car. I would not call it garbage as it has a small following that like it like many like Saab for all the odd reasons. Alfa is the Italian Saab.

 

I think garbage is a little harsh. It may not be the best at anything but it still can be a fast and per this video a challenging drive.

 

Hell MG cars were never the global standard but still a fun car to drive when they were together.

I like Alfa but I would not bank on it to save my corporation.

Alfa is a tad more than a...SAAB

 

Founded in 1910...

Not the first automotive company...but amongst the first....whether by European standards...or American....

 

That following you were talking about, here it is, its because of these, even before America dreamt of racing cars....yeah...before the Hot Rod scene...

 

 

 

 

 

Is that a Ferrari prancing horse I see on the 8C-35?

Well, in sooooo many ways....Enzo is connected to Alfa...in soooo many ways...Alfa Romeo is Ferrari and Ferrari is Alfa Romeo...

 

Alfa Romeo is also an identity of an entire people and their nation...sure....you could argue that about SAAB...but Alfa Romeo goes deeper...and the Alfa Romeos and Enzo being involved with the cars that raced the 1000 Miglia...yeah...another Italian affair...have made a modern Italy very proud...more so than SAAB....

SAAB's fighter jets are another story...but we are talking about the automotive aspect....not the company part...

 

 

That GTV....also playes a HUUUUUGE role in that cult following you speak of...

 

Named after my home town...

 

The Montreal is gaining real steam in the lust department as of late...values are going up...other than the quirky SAAB lovers, no others regard SAAB as automotive art...Alfa Romeo on the other hand...well...I just posted 4 different cars....trust me...Alfa Romeo has many many more that people care about deeply...

 

And NO! Alfa Romeo is NOT a dead brand...Alfa Romeo has enough mojo left in her to rival anybody....Cadillac, BMW, M-B....anybody!

Its just that Alfa Romeo needs the right car guy, with the right marketing guy, with the right accounting guy to make it all work...

 

Sergio is not that guy....at least Ralph Gilles is on the right team....but he bleeds MOPAR....and that is fine with me...but if Sergio is smart, he might let Ralph have some input on Alpha...

 

And yes...Alfa could be THAT company to save FCA....it sure as hell aint Dodge or Chrysler...Europeans dont know of Dodge or Chrysler....all they know about those brands is the muscle car Dukes of Hazard Charger stuff along with the Steve McQueen bad guy Charger stuff....However, us North Americans know a tad more about Alfas....albeit....some of us are real biased against Alfa....just because they are not American...

 

Let me remind you that many nice American things are of Italian decent....PIZZA is one of them...

Robert DeNiro and Al Pacino and Joe Dimaggio are another!

Edited September 4, 2015 by oldshurst442

[hyperv6]

Bud I'm talking present history not 60-100 years ago.

Hell if you want to play that game Fiat was a major power in performance and racing 100 years ago too.

I speak of the 70's and later where Alfa struggled with their lines. They did have some bright spots with the sports cars but their sedans were just odd unreliable rusting vehicles that appeal to a small segment like Saab did for oh so many years.

I know Alfa history pretty well and you do not have to school me on it.

FYI Ferrari is not Alfa and Alfa is not Ferrari. Enzo did race for them and did manage the team for them till they pissed him off. He then went and did his own team and own company to spite them and beat them in racing which he did well over the years.

I have a friend that still races a Monte Carlo Lancia and nearly won a national championship  and I have had a decent amount of experience with Italian cars and know the good and the bad of most of them.

The fact is even with the right guy most people avoid Italian cars other than Ferrari like the plague. Alfa has no where the fan base or trust of the other makes out there. Alfa in America is like Cadillac in Europe. They have a lot of work to do and they will have to do a lot to earn the trust of the customer again.

Second Sergio is not going to put an American in charge of Alfa. Ralph I agree would be a good choice but it's not going to happen.

As for Alfa saving FCA? Stop go to the sink and pour out the Kool Aide.

Answer these questions with a straight face.

 

#1 Do you think that Alfa can reach 400,000 unit buy 2018? Let me help you on this as last year they sold 68,000 and this year they are behind last years sales already. 

 

#2 FCA needs to increase from 2.8 Million Units last year to 6 Million Units by 2018, Do you think they will make it and where will the sales come from? Note these are Sergio's numbers not mine. He has wavered on the 6 million now and then but he states this number and analyst generally agree he needs this volume to survive.

Even with Jeep and Ram increasing sales at record rates these numbers just don't function.

 

If you want to increase sales America is your best bet for larger volumes. Europe is struggling sales wise and Italy has a very stagnate economy. The Germans are not going to buy and the rest of Europe is small. Sergio expects American sales are going to be only 150,000 and that is more than twice what we had last year. Very optimistic at best.

 

Italy also gave us the Leaning Tower of Pisa, Mussolini, Gambino, Caligula, Costa Concordia and Pontius Pilot. The true Roots of the Pizza came from Greece and the Italians just added the Tomato sauce, other toppings and meat.  

Oh and the three actors are Americans form Italian decent not Italians.

[oldshurst442]

Bud I'm talking present history not 60-100 years ago.

Hell if you want to play that game Fiat was a major power in performance and racing 100 years ago too.

I speak of the 70's and later where Alfa struggled with their lines. They did have some bright spots with the sports cars but their sedans were just odd unreliable rusting vehicles that appeal to a small segment like Saab did for oh so many years.

I know Alfa history pretty well and you do not have to school me on it.

FYI Ferrari is not Alfa and Alfa is not Ferrari. Enzo did race for them and did manage the team for them till they pissed him off. He then went and did his own team and own company to spite them and beat them in racing which he did well over the years.

I have a friend that still races a Monte Carlo Lancia and nearly won a national championship  and I have had a decent amount of experience with Italian cars and know the good and the bad of most of them.

The fact is even with the right guy most people avoid Italian cars other than Ferrari like the plague. Alfa has no where the fan base or trust of the other makes out there. Alfa in America is like Cadillac in Europe. They have a lot of work to do and they will have to do a lot to earn the trust of the customer again.

Second Sergio is not going to put an American in charge of Alfa. Ralph I agree would be a good choice but it's not going to happen.

As for Alfa saving FCA? Stop go to the sink and pour out the Kool Aide.

Answer these questions with a straight face.

 

#1 Do you think that Alfa can reach 400,000 unit buy 2018? Let me help you on this as last year they sold 68,000 and this year they are behind last years sales already. 

 

#2 FCA needs to increase from 2.8 Million Units last year to 6 Million Units by 2018, Do you think they will make it and where will the sales come from? Note these are Sergio's numbers not mine. He has wavered on the 6 million now and then but he states this number and analyst generally agree he needs this volume to survive.

Even with Jeep and Ram increasing sales at record rates these numbers just don't function.

 

If you want to increase sales America is your best bet for larger volumes. Europe is struggling sales wise and Italy has a very stagnate economy. The Germans are not going to buy and the rest of Europe is small. Sergio expects American sales are going to be only 150,000 and that is more than twice what we had last year. Very optimistic at best.

 

Italy also gave us the Leaning Tower of Pisa, Mussolini, Gambino, Caligula, Costa Concordia and Pontius Pilot. The true Roots of the Pizza came from Greece and the Italians just added the Tomato sauce, other toppings and meat.  

Oh and the three actors are Americans form Italian decent not Italians.

 

Bud I'm talking present history not 60-100 years ago

Hell if you want to play that game Fiat was a major power in performance and racing 100 years ago too.

 

 

of course you are...that is classic argument when someone does not have anything else to say...

YOU are the one to say that Alfa is dead....I am the one to say that Alfa still has mojo left in her...

Cadillac is down and out...doesnt stop GM from thrwoing BILLIONS trying to revive the Standard of the World....which coincidentally WAS the same 100 years ago when Fiat and Alfa was racing...its funnt that you dont seem to have that double standard regarding Cadillac...

 

I speak of the 70's and later where Alfa struggled with their lines. They did have some bright spots with the sports cars but their sedans were just odd unreliable rusting vehicles that appeal to a small segment like Saab did for oh so many years.

 

All manufacturers have had missteps. Cadillac started going downhill in the same time frame...albeit it was less noticeable...it was very apparent though in the 1990s...but that decent started in the 1970s...need I remind you of the 8-6-4 or the Allante or the Cimarron...or the Fleetwood Brougham of the mid 1990s that was sooooo outta place and outta touch?  Or the Caddy that Zigs? Yet somehow...we are harsh on Alfa...

Cadillac has yet to build a car on the level of the VW Phaeton...or the Alfa Romeo 8C and the 4C...OK...the current CTS-V DOES count for something...

 

 

FYI Ferrari is not Alfa and Alfa is not Ferrari.

 

If you dont think that....then maybe you should school yourself if you dont want me to do it for you...he was not only a race car driver for Alfa...

And where do you think he learned to fabricate engines and car bodies and how to manufacture them?

And who do you think was Alfa's chief for racing?

 

 

FYI....I said in sooooooo many ways....Alfa is Ferrari and Ferrai is Alfa...that implies things...and without going into Enzo's life history along with Alfa 's history...it should be understood quite easily by us car guys that are supposedly in the know...

 

The fact is even with the right guy most people avoid Italian cars other than Ferrari like the plague.

 

OK...I believe that...but I also said the right marketing guy too...just ask BMW what marketing can do for you. GM could use a few pointers here also...

 

Alfa has no where the fan base or trust of the other makes out there. Alfa in America is like Cadillac in Europe. They have a lot of work to do and they will have to do a lot to earn the trust of the customer again.

 

Maybe I talked too fast about your thoughts on Cadillac, maybe not, but at least you acknowledge Cadillac is not in a rosy place just yet...but that is the thing...GM has thrown BILLIONS only to throw MORE BILLIONS to right the ship...I get it...Alfa does not enjoy that kind of money...and its doing it as of know on the backs of MOPAR. Jeep,Dodge and Chrysler...

I happen to be on a certain same level as Sergio regarding Alfa...I still believ in the fire that Alfa has got...and Im basing it on the fact that the 8C and the 4C has garnered international lust from people...like Cadillac, with the Ciel and the El Miraj....people are SALIVATED on the thought of exotic Alfas...

 

Second Sergio is not going to put an American in charge of Alfa. Ralph I agree would be a good choice but it's not going to happen.

 

I dont think that will happen either...

 

 

I dont think Alfa will EVER reach 400 000 units...

What I meant to say by Alfa saving FCA is that if Sergio was smart...but he aint...he is something like a used car salesman...if FCA structured their business model like GM's. then Alfa could be used like Cadillac in where high technology and ultra state of the art platforms are given to Alfa...then trickled down to the mainstream brands...llike GM is doing wit Alpha platform ATS/CTS unto the Camaro.

And the magnetic shocks from Corvette/Cadillac unto Camaro and possibly Buick etc...

 

Use Chrysler in some sort of Buick/high end Chevy kind of a way...classy yet affordable...

Dodge in some sort of Chevy kind of a way...with a twist...sporty oriented

Jeep doing Jeep things and Ram doing Ram things

 

Alfa being Cadillac...EXACTLY like Cadillac...the thing is...Cadillac is going where Alfa used to be...its Alfa's thing what Cadillac is doing now...all Alfa has to do...is just revisit their OWN past...its Cadillac that is in a tougher position, because Cadillac is still new to this sports sedan/car thing...

 

 

If you want to increase sales America is your best bet for larger volumes. Europe is struggling sales wise and Italy has a very stagnate economy. The Germans are not going to buy and the rest of Europe is small. Sergio expects American sales are going to be only 150,000 and that is more than twice what we had last year. Very optimistic at best.

 

America is best bet for MOPAR to succeed and have volume...Europe is where FIAT needs to succeed. THAT means Fiat has to put on the pants...I would lose Fiat and convert Alfa into a BMW like role in Europe where Alfa could be both mainstream and luxury while Alfa remains luxury in North America...and it aint that hard for Alfa to do...as Alfa made econobox and mainstream vehicles in the past and continues to do so actually...

Jeep has enough clout in Europe to do the SUV thing in Europe...maybe more so than any Fiat or Alfa if FCA is tinkering with the idea to do Alfa and/or Fiat SUVs and CUVs....

But lets not kid ourselves...Sergio wont kill off yet another Italian brand...

 

 

Italy also gave us the Leaning Tower of Pisa, Mussolini, Gambino, Caligula, Costa Concordia and Pontius Pilot. The true Roots of the Pizza came from Greece and the Italians just added the Tomato sauce, other toppings and meat.

 

Point very well taken certain Italian mishaps...including the humans you posted...yeah...mishaps...and I deserved that cheeky response back...

As for the Pizza thing...thanx....it IS a Greek thing...not too many people recognize that...so I just dont argue that point...I keep it to myself and I just celebrate that fact with my fellow Greek....um...paisans

 

Oh and the three actors are Americans form Italian decent not Italians.

 

Us Greeks and Italians...we dont say we are of Greek or Italian decent...

We simply say...we are Greek...or Italian.

 

The blood...in my case...its pure Greek. Sure....born and raised in Montreal, Quebec, Canada. Proud to be a Quebecois...even prouder to be Canadian...Im still GREEK!!!

Edited September 5, 2015 by oldshurst442

[oldshurst442]

PS:  to Hyper.

 

I enjoyed this conversation quite much.

Looking forward to see your next match. Either to continue this discussion or the next one discussion we might have in the very near future.

 

There is nothing more to add, as we pretty much did meet in the middle...even if here was only 2 responses made...

 

I think even if we are not exactly in the middle...we could get there very easily...

PS: The top part of my response seems aggressive...its not intended to be...and THAT is where we may not be exactly in the middle...but like I said...it wont be too hard to come to some sort of an agreement.

Edited September 5, 2015 by oldshurst442

[hyperv6]

Well we agree in some things and in others You see the glass half full and I see it half empty.

I just see Alfa today as a company run by an idiot that is betting the entire FCA future on this outside of his claims to try to take over GM. To be this would be like Mary Barra saying she was going to bet the entire GM future on Cadillac. Now if Sergio would move to Mopar for Volume and Alfa for additional income the deal could work but he has it ass backwards.

 

They will use the Alfa platform for the future Mopar RWD cars if they ever get there. Note they have been delayed because of many claims but it come down to money.  This is not how you fix Chrysler though. Fiat and Alfa are not going to build cars that are easy or cheap to modify and that has been key to Chryslers performance cars much like GM and Ford.

 

Alfa and Cadillac have been damaged but Cadillac has a greater advantage of being a company that can focus on quality and profits at lower volumes where Sergio is wanting to go higher volumes at higher prices into markets that really are very reluctant. He expected Fiat to be embraced with a series of big hugs as he would say. As of now sales are well below expectations the brand name is still damaged here in North America. {Hard to get past FIX IT Again TONY}

 

The Italian cars in general have often been a mess post WWII. The only bright spots have been the super cars that got a pass on reliability and also often the design house styling that was off the chart. {I love a 250 GT Lusso so much it is unreal}.  As for the rest the only reason Italy is not last in cars is because of France.

Chrysler was on the right path with many of their cars and mostly just lacked a good small group of cars. The Germans did not care for the smaller cars and one even considered going large car only. The Dart is not a bad car but it is far from class leading. It reflects the lack of funding from FCA to Chrysler to do it right. I will give credit to Chrysler for doing so much with so little but in todays market that is still a path to bankruptcy.

The 500 is a non starter. They would have been better off making it a Chrysler and just sold it in the dealers they had. Today many dealers are wanting out as sales are dismal and the reputation still haunts them. The price is close enough you may as well buy a Mini if you are going to go to this class.

 

As for the building of BMW in America I agree they went from unknown quirky cars to where they are today. But note too it took a long time from the 60's to the early 80's to do it. FCA does not have the time or the money to pull it off like BMW. Nor the leadership either.

 

Then on top of this we have over capacity in Europe Sergio has refused to address. We have a failing economy in Italy and Europe as a whole. We have a brewing middle east issue that I fear will end up in war and drag Europe and possibly us into it. Next you mix in the added competition on the market today and I find it hard to make a case for FCA and Alfa.

 

The greatest hope is keep Alfa a low volume company, Make upper lower priced sports cars alone with some sporting sedans that sell at a higher price point but still under Ferrari. Sell at the higher price point but lower volumes. Put the money into Mopar and let them build cars of world class and volume even if you need to you could rebadge them in Europe and Latin America as Fiat or what ever name works.

What we need to pay attention to here is Mopar is suited to make volume cars at a higher profit. Play to your strengths. Lets put it this way. Sergio is with Fiat like I am with the Cleveland Browns. I am dumb enough to be a loyal fan even if they have been constant losers. But we depart at one point because while I am a fan I don't bet on them.

 

I have Swiss, English and German heritage in my back ground but I really just call myself American. My Great X5 grandfather was born on the boat coming from England in 1690 so to me that was a new start as the first land he stepped on was North America. I acknowledge my back ground and it may account for my love of Chocolate but my people help set the boundaries for the colonies here so we tend t keep with just being American. We did set the boundaries in negotiations between William Penn and Lord Baltimore. LOL!

 

Keep in mind I understand Alfas history well but they went through a period like Harley Davidson did with AMF in the 70's that they never recovered from. Fiat as a whole did more damage than good. We had a Fiat dealer here out in the country and I can tell you I saw it struggle for years. It got to the point they only sold the Bertone X1/9 once Fiat pulled out. Alfa struggled just the same and for many of the same reasons.

 

By the way I like the debate. You too don't take anything personal. I just try to stand my ground and with words it may not always come out Rainbows and lolly pops. Nothing is never meant to be personal.

 

We agree half way here but the end game is where we divide. I just think Alfa would be better served as a lower volume brand with better cars to supplement income and not intended to provide all the income. Mopar has or had a better engineering staff and much larger. I know many have left under FCA but I still think they could do the Fiat and Mopar cars much better at higher volumes than Fiat but they need better fundng. Look at Jeep on how they responded with funding the same would happen for the cars if given the chance. They could still share platforms but I think Mopar would know how to do it and execute it better.

Getting the volume up is key here as with the lower volumes the profits will remain elusive.

 

Also dumping Sergio is key but as long as the Angnelli family is happy with him and his ways he will remain. they are looking at the end game on how much money he will make not what companies survive his path of destruction. He is tied in with too many other of their companies too.

 

Sergio is really another Johnathan Goldsmith who destroyed many companies just for their money.