Trim Levels, Pricing, Configurator For '16 Camaro Revealed!

[Guest wings4life]

So many teens mag race (though I suspect fewer in the digital age of smartphones and social media becoming the all consuming hobby), but so few of them ever end up buying sports cars even when they eventually have the money.

 

Watching my teens grow up, observing their lack of interest in cars, and listening to them make fun of guys who have to have performance cars....I have to agree here. It's a crazy new world.  Many kids today are not even in a hurray to get their license.  That one blows me away. All the parents say similar too.  And being that we are from the motor city, and that many of their parents work in the auto industry, does not seem to influence them.  If anything, they are opposed to what their parents are drawn to.

[oldshurst442]

 

So many teens mag race (though I suspect fewer in the digital age of smartphones and social media becoming the all consuming hobby), but so few of them ever end up buying sports cars even when they eventually have the money.

 

Watching my teens grow up, observing their lack of interest in cars, and listening to them make fun of guys who have to have performance cars....I have to agree here. It's a crazy new world.  Many kids today are not even in a hurray to get their license.  That one blows me away. All the parents say similar too.  And being that we are from the motor city, and that many of their parents work in the auto industry, does not seem to influence them.  If anything, they are opposed to what their parents are drawn to.

 

Well...Quebec teens actually are in love with the automobile...many of them customize their rides with performance parts....maybe not as crazy as SEMA show levels of customization...but its there...

 

Vehicles of choice?

Small 4 cylinder rides from Mazda 3 Speed, VW Golf GTi, Subaru BRZ and WRX, Acura Integras (yeah...there are still some out there, Honda Civic Si (yeah, the older 1990s models, Ford is fast becoming popular and no...not the Mustang.

 

BMW E46s are popular with this crowd too...but the kids that own these usually do more visual stuff rather than performance oriented stuff...

 

So...take what I have said however you like to take it...but...even in Quebec...where gasoline prices are sky high...hence the love for 4 cylinder cars being "souped up"...even as far North and exotic as...Quebec...there are youth that continue the car crazy trend...not all are into their phones...they are...with their phones too...and their phones help with the diagnostics of their performance with their little 4 banger ricers....so...

[frogger]

In Ontario, the high cost of insurance is probably the biggest culprit in the interest of autos for young people.  I sure wouldn't want one if I had to pay $300 a month for insurance either.  Besides you have the Orange Julep to congregate around, no wonder there is still some semblance of enthusiasm in La Belle Province.

 

 

 

 

So many teens mag race (though I suspect fewer in the digital age of smartphones and social media becoming the all consuming hobby), but so few of them ever end up buying sports cars even when they eventually have the money.

 

Watching my teens grow up, observing their lack of interest in cars, and listening to them make fun of guys who have to have performance cars....I have to agree here. It's a crazy new world.  Many kids today are not even in a hurray to get their license.  That one blows me away. All the parents say similar too.  And being that we are from the motor city, and that many of their parents work in the auto industry, does not seem to influence them.  If anything, they are opposed to what their parents are drawn to.

 

Well...Quebec teens actually are in love with the automobile...many of them customize their rides with performance parts....maybe not as crazy as SEMA show levels of customization...but its there...

 

Vehicles of choice?

Small 4 cylinder rides from Mazda 3 Speed, VW Golf GTi, Subaru BRZ and WRX, Acura Integras (yeah...there are still some out there, Honda Civic Si (yeah, the older 1990s models, Ford is fast becoming popular and no...not the Mustang.

 

BMW E46s are popular with this crowd too...but the kids that own these usually do more visual stuff rather than performance oriented stuff...

 

So...take what I have said however you like to take it...but...even in Quebec...where gasoline prices are sky high...hence the love for 4 cylinder cars being "souped up"...even as far North and exotic as...Quebec...there are youth that continue the car crazy trend...not all are into their phones...they are...with their phones too...and their phones help with the diagnostics of their performance with their little 4 banger ricers....so...

 

[oldshurst442]

Orange Julep is alive and well...and its still going on strong...

But there are other meets as well all across the Montreal Urban area.   Muscle cars have not faded away, but its more or less the classics that get the attention...not as if the new Mustangs/Camaros/Challengers dotn get any love...its the tuner cars that have really taken off...since the early 1990s and only getting stronger...and only because there are MORE tunerz available for purchase than are just 3 pony cars...and lets us NOT forget...it was only 1 pony car for a good 6-8 years...in the mid 2000s...

[Guest wings4life]

Good points olds and frogger. 

I know we are speaking in generalities, but frogger's point was spot-on, in that kids today have so many distractions that cars are now delegated to just transportation for many.  When I go to car shows and cruises, etc. all I see are middle aged men reliving their youth.  Guilty as charged.  I love it, plain and simple, but my teen avoids them and few are to be seen around here.  So strange.  When I was 18, I was all about the car and customization, etc. 

 

Maybe it's just me.

[oldshurst442]

Good points olds and frogger. 

I know we are speaking in generalities, but frogger's point was spot-on, in that kids today have so many distractions that cars are now delegated to just transportation for many.  When I go to car shows and cruises, etc. all I see are middle aged men reliving their youth.  Guilty as charged.  I love it, plain and simple, but my teen avoids them and few are to be seen around here.  So strange.  When I was 18, I was all about the car and customization, etc. 

 

Maybe it's just me.

Im quoting Wings....but this is a continuation of the discussion  above this latest post that Wings made...so yeah...

 

 

I forgot to mention...

 

It helps that Montreal hosts the Formula 1 race year after year after year...

It has ALWAYS been popular with the world visiting Montreal...and the local yokels...for the race...and it was always a stepping stone...albeit F1 was ALWAYS the more popular racing circuit....for Indy Car and the Ferrari Challenge that we used to get and the Nascar Sprint Series...now that these last races are no longer and the only one still standing IS the F1...well...like I said...it was ALWAYS a BIG Deal....but now...its an even BIGGER deal.

 

 

The week before F1...Down Town Montreal would swell up with the exotic car crowd and we would hoon over Ferraris and Lambos...and now and again...classic American Muscle would sneak some attention...only to have one street closed one day for exotics and another for classic American Iron.

Then soon enough...the tunerz would try to steal some attention...and what we have the last 5 years or so...is the whole week, 2 streets of Down Town Montreal would be closed off the ENTIRE week for EVERYBODY to display their rides...and that includes ALL types of rides...even motorcycles...speed bikes and Harleys/Choppers...exotics, Italian roadsters, tunerz, American Muscle and Hot Rods, motorcycles...

 

 

Plus...in the winter time...Quebecois love to snow mobile...THAT also helps the car crazy world...as we tend to enjoy all kinds of motor madness...

Edited September 18, 2015 by oldshurst442

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

One of these seasons, I will make it to the Montreal F1 race.

[oldshurst442]

Its a party. A week long party.

Its not only a race.

 

Its the start of the summer season for us. And when the Habs make it far into the play offs...oh what a wonderful time it is on and in the streets of Montreal.

[ccap41]

One of these seasons, I will make it to the Montreal F1 race.

I've gone to a few when they were in Indy. I was too young to party like Olds is say'n but they were still amazing! I've been to a Brickyard 400(NASCAR) and 3 F1(US Grand Prix) races and the atmosphere difference is incredible..as expected though.

Edited September 18, 2015 by ccap41

[hyperv6]

I see it on the performance side of things since that is where I work.

Kids today wither want faster phones or pads than cars in most cases. If they do favor cars they tend to look to the smaller and lighter cars as they can not afford the insurance and or the payment of a newer Camaro or Mustang unless subsidized by mom and dad. Also the used market is slim pickings as often the Camaro's and Mustangs are still expensive insurance wise and often the cars are beat to death. Though I do find deals now and then. I just had a friend sell a 2002 Z/28 that ran 12's and was well built with 17K miles for $9K. But even that is hard to afford for a kid working at Mc D.

I had it good as in my time I could buy old 60's Muscle cars for $2500 and insurance was cheap. I had three at one time that today would sell $25K - 30K.

Today a kid can buy a Honda cheap and they grew up in the back of an Accord and they are happy with that. There are enough parts out to make it loud and a little faster but that is all they care about.

The Camaro is targeted at older customers with fluid incomes that can afford these cars and grew up with them. Over time we know they will have to down size them and I expect they will target the kids of today and the start of that is the Turbo 4 engines we have now. That 4 is not so much for the people today but to build to the customers 10-15 years from now.

Like I have said the Pony car died years ago and these cars today are more GT coupes. They are going to be more refined and will compete better with more expensive names as we go on. They are no longer just converted economy cars.

I have been to about any kind of race you can think of but F1, I should have gone to Indy but just never did. I will get to one someday. I really would love to see Monza. I would be dressed in red.

[Drew Dowdell]

Also keep in mind that the performance of these new cars far exceeds what kids should be at the helm of anyway. Even a v6 Camaro has a lot more power than what the V8 cars of 20 years ago had. The turbo 4 has more power than anything from the 80s.

[hyperv6]

Also keep in mind that the performance of these new cars far exceeds what kids should be at the helm of anyway. Even a v6 Camaro has a lot more power than what the V8 cars of 20 years ago had. The turbo 4 has more power than anything from the 80s.

Drew there are adults that should not have this much power. Anyone seen the Prince in Beverly Hills in the Ferrari this week? Also the videos we have seen on YouTube of the crashing Z06 are proof that many people are over their limits.

[oldshurst442]

 

Also keep in mind that the performance of these new cars far exceeds what kids should be at the helm of anyway. Even a v6 Camaro has a lot more power than what the V8 cars of 20 years ago had. The turbo 4 has more power than anything from the 80s.

Drew there are adults that should not have this much power. Anyone seen the Prince in Beverly Hills in the Ferrari this week? Also the videos we have seen on YouTube of the crashing Z06 are proof that many people are over their limits.

 

Ive admitted to this before at cheersandgears...

 

Ive wrapped a 1989 2.8 liter V6 Pontiac Firebird and all of its 140 HP or so around a traffic light pole...

 

Thankfully...I dont drive like an adolescent idiot anymore.

[Drew Dowdell]

 

Also keep in mind that the performance of these new cars far exceeds what kids should be at the helm of anyway. Even a v6 Camaro has a lot more power than what the V8 cars of 20 years ago had. The turbo 4 has more power than anything from the 80s.

Drew there are adults that should not have this much power. Anyone seen the Prince in Beverly Hills in the Ferrari this week? Also the videos we have seen on YouTube of the crashing Z06 are proof that many people are over their limits.

 

 

Absolutely.  Most drivers shouldn't be trusted with anything more powerful than a base Corolla and even then they can't handle it at 7/10ths. 

[ccap41]

That is very very true. When driven 10/10ths I bet only 1% can handle anything over said Corolla. I know myself I probably couldn't if I'm being honest. I never drive that hard so I have next to zero practice.

[El Kabong]

So let's all do the logical thing and buy Smart cars.

The reality is that most of us who buy these cars (and I count myself in that fortunate group) are buying potential, not the performance.

Still, that does not excuse automakers from striving for anything less than excellence. If I buy a '16 Camaro, I will know that it's limits are superior to that of the competition. And knowing that my money has thus been well-spent, I can give myself a thumbs-up while doddering along at snore speed.

[ccap41]

^ I'll agree with that. Absolutely strive for excellence! But, we're just buying bragging rights.. Okay way more than that but you know what I mean.

[El Kabong]

But I don't.

Why would I walk into a showroom and accept a good car, knowing that it could have been great but it was cynically dumbed down by beancounters who think it's full potential will never be reached on public roads anyways? That's what got GM in trouble in the first place. It's kinda like saying "why wipe your ass, you're just going to crap again tomorrow."

[ccap41]

What?

I never said they should settle.. I said they should be striving for excellence. I meant you're buying bragging rights because next to nobody will ever be able to truly utilize everything the vehicle has to offer. For example, throw me in a new 4cyl camaro and I guarantee it will still out handle my skill level. But I'd still buy the v8 and enhanced performance that comes with it even though I won't utilize it/can't.

Edited September 19, 2015 by ccap41

[El Kabong]

Sorry, didn't mean to get you caught up in that incorrectly. But it's an attitude I have read from others around the interwebs as of late. I find it baffling.

[Drew Dowdell]

Im mostly referring to the lament about "kids these days" not being interested in pony cars like we were when we were that age. A good chunk of us on this forum grew up from the late 70s to the early 90s.... compared to the pony cars of those years, a Turbo-4 Camaro *is* a hi-po pony car.

[El Kabong]

It's far better than any pony car that existed when I was a kid, to be blunt. And probably just as inexpensive to tweak.

The sole issue is the lack of a V8. And for that you can only point to government regulations. I'm pretty sure Mark Reuss would love to throw in a 5.3 truck engine for low thirty-grand range. But he can't.

[hyperv6]

The whole point of where we started is just a simple observation on todays  performance vs. mind set of some folks out there. .

  Lets face it the 4 cylinder Camaro has gone from 95 HP to 275 HP.

 

Even some of todays cars that are un restricted are insane and there is always someone out there willing to try them. Case in point. My HHR SS with the upgrade will do 160 MPH. Now who in their right mind would want to go that fast in an odd shaped box?  I tend to restrict my demonstrations of speed to on ramps and then blend into traffic. But on the HHR site there are a few who have tested these upper regions. So far we have not thinned the heard but at some point one of them will make room for a new birth.

 

I am comfortable with the 0-60 but others love to over reach in the wrong places. Just human nature to some. No one ever called for everyone to drive smart cars just an observation of the hey watch this mentality and what more HP will do for it to a minority of the buyers.

 

It is like the guy who bought the Mustang a couple years ago. It was a V6 that was speed limited. Well he took the limiter out. At about 150 MPH on the highway the driveshaft let go as it was not made to run with out a limiter. It came right up through the floor. He was lucky not to get hurt. Then the idiot puts it on YouTube. I bet that did not help in a request for warranty repair. How would you eve call your insurance company?

 

Again just an observation of human nature. We should not limit these cars or HP for the minority but we should expect to see some go out in a blaze of stupidity.

[El Kabong]

You stated the uncomfortable endgame of the argument that I laid out with the Smart car comment.

And again, it boils down to the strange attitude we have with authority vs. responsibility in our cars. Realistically we do not need more than 100hp, for the most part. But we are free to have as much as 1200hp if we want.

[Drew Dowdell]

It's far better than any pony car that existed when I was a kid, to be blunt. And probably just as inexpensive to tweak.

The sole issue is the lack of a V8. And for that you can only point to government regulations. I'm pretty sure Mark Reuss would love to throw in a 5.3 truck engine for low thirty-grand range. But he can't.

 

Actually, you can probably mostly blame the "gotta have DOHC" crowd.... because somehow a DOHC V6 is moar better than a pushrod V8

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

 

It's far better than any pony car that existed when I was a kid, to be blunt. And probably just as inexpensive to tweak.

The sole issue is the lack of a V8. And for that you can only point to government regulations. I'm pretty sure Mark Reuss would love to throw in a 5.3 truck engine for low thirty-grand range. But he can't.

 

Actually, you can probably mostly blame the "gotta have DOHC" crowd.... because somehow a DOHC V6 is moar better than a pushrod V8

 

 

On a percentage basis, I bet the amount who believe that enough to influence sales, can be counted on one hand and still have digits left over to throw a peace sign up.

 

The major influence in this case, is price.

[hyperv6]

Here is what we are reaching for. Power is indeed what most people aspire to.

For some it is the power of leadership be it the head of a city, country or company. For others it is large amounts of money and influence. For many it is what we can buy like large expensive houses and powerful cars.

 

For years for cars to represent power has been in the engine. We saw it way back even in the powerful cars of the 30's or even when Edsel Ford brought the world the Flat head.

With no regulations and no worry on gas prices the door was open to make more and more power. The only limiting factor was the inefficiency of the engines build on lower technology.

 

Today we have advanced the technology and the investment into things companies would not use due to cost to make smaller and more efficient engines but with much more power. We have pretty much it a wall now as cars like the Hellcat have a lot of power but really can not use all they have put it to the ground in stock daily driver form.

Now we are entering the next stage where lower mass is the new HP war. As cars drop in weight more performance is found in shorter stopping, better handling and faster performance.

 

Do we need this no we all could really live our lives in a Spark but that would not satisfy  the needs of image or expectations of most customers.

Drew the truth is DOHC has played a part in this as they are very efficient and powerful small engines but they also equate more is better to many customers and that is where the addition of technology enhances the image. To some just having a Turbo or Supercharger means more in image. Sale for DOHC and other technologies.

The engine is an air pump and to make it more efficient you need to get air in and used power out. Now with the push rod they have done very well but we are now to the point GM is working on dropping a V8 to two cylinders. Lets face it at some point they will hit the wall. Smaller displacement engines with more than 2 valves are more efficient in getting air in and used power out with lower emissions. If this were not true for smaller engines you would still have them investing in the Iron Duke. But that is an argument for another day.

Back to deal here. A Z06 is really an AK47 of the automotive world. Does anyone really need one. No! But do you feel more powerful with one and feel an enhanced image yes!. Power sells just as bigger, better, faster and Sex.

[El Kabong]

It's far better than any pony car that existed when I was a kid, to be blunt. And probably just as inexpensive to tweak.

The sole issue is the lack of a V8. And for that you can only point to government regulations. I'm pretty sure Mark Reuss would love to throw in a 5.3 truck engine for low thirty-grand range. But he can't.

 

Actually, you can probably mostly blame the "gotta have DOHC" crowd.... because somehow a DOHC V6 is moar better than a pushrod V8

There's an element of that, no doubt. But there's an exonomics of scale thing going on as well, particularly with the 3.6.

[ocnblu]

I would happily take a 2.0t Camaro, and I am not usually a base car kinda guy.  Can I get one with a six speed manual and LSD?

[Drew Dowdell]

 

 

It's far better than any pony car that existed when I was a kid, to be blunt. And probably just as inexpensive to tweak.

The sole issue is the lack of a V8. And for that you can only point to government regulations. I'm pretty sure Mark Reuss would love to throw in a 5.3 truck engine for low thirty-grand range. But he can't.

 

Actually, you can probably mostly blame the "gotta have DOHC" crowd.... because somehow a DOHC V6 is moar better than a pushrod V8

There's an element of that, no doubt. But there's an exonomics of scale thing going on as well, particularly with the 3.6.

 

 

There isn't enough economics of scale with the 5.3 Ecotec?  It's in all of the full size trucks and SUVs. 

I would happily take a 2.0t Camaro, and I am not usually a base car kinda guy.  Can I get one with a six speed manual and LSD?

 

Don't get LSD. Drugs are bad m'kay.... 

[Drew Dowdell]

Here is what we are reaching for. Power is indeed what most people aspire to.

For some it is the power of leadership be it the head of a city, country or company. For others it is large amounts of money and influence. For many it is what we can buy like large expensive houses and powerful cars.

 

For years for cars to represent power has been in the engine. We saw it way back even in the powerful cars of the 30's or even when Edsel Ford brought the world the Flat head.

With no regulations and no worry on gas prices the door was open to make more and more power. The only limiting factor was the inefficiency of the engines build on lower technology.

 

Today we have advanced the technology and the investment into things companies would not use due to cost to make smaller and more efficient engines but with much more power. We have pretty much it a wall now as cars like the Hellcat have a lot of power but really can not use all they have put it to the ground in stock daily driver form.

Now we are entering the next stage where lower mass is the new HP war. As cars drop in weight more performance is found in shorter stopping, better handling and faster performance.

 

Do we need this no we all could really live our lives in a Spark but that would not satisfy  the needs of image or expectations of most customers.

Drew the truth is DOHC has played a part in this as they are very efficient and powerful small engines but they also equate more is better to many customers and that is where the addition of technology enhances the image. To some just having a Turbo or Supercharger means more in image. Sale for DOHC and other technologies.

The engine is an air pump and to make it more efficient you need to get air in and used power out. Now with the push rod they have done very well but we are now to the point GM is working on dropping a V8 to two cylinders. Lets face it at some point they will hit the wall. Smaller displacement engines with more than 2 valves are more efficient in getting air in and used power out with lower emissions. If this were not true for smaller engines you would still have them investing in the Iron Duke. But that is an argument for another day.

Back to deal here. A Z06 is really an AK47 of the automotive world. Does anyone really need one. No! But do you feel more powerful with one and feel an enhanced image yes!. Power sells just as bigger, better, faster and Sex.

 

If you could choose the 3.6 or the 5.3 for the same price, which would you choose?  The 5.3 is cheaper, lighter, and more powerful with much much more torque than the 3.6. With AFM, the 5.3 would likely post similar highway MPG. 

[El Kabong]

Possibly. Maybe even probably.

But first, to clarify: my earlier statement regarding economics of scale applied to the V6. It's inclusion in, say, 40,000 Camaros per year drives down it's per-unit cost in a way that the smallblock probably doesn't need, seeing as how it goes into roughly half a million vehicles per year. It's the same thing as the Camaro's chassis: build enough to keep them attainable.

But yes: whereas the Camaro's chassis is beyond reproach for both discerning drivers and aspiring donut-makers, the small four and V6 are a bit more controversial. Everybody wants the V8. And I can't blame them. It sounds great, it pulls great. With the right gearing, it's fairly economical.

But government mandates cannot be denied (unless you're VW, and then only for a few years, it seems). You will need good AVERAGE FE numbers, and this is where the smaller motors will also have their place. I remember the 70s and 80s, so I take with a grain of salt those who predict the demise of the smallblock. But it will have to change.

Edited September 20, 2015 by El Kabong

[Drew Dowdell]

Possibly. Maybe even probably.

But first, to clarify: my earlier statement regarding economics of scale applied to the V6. It's inclusion in, say, 40,000 Camaros per year drives down it's per-unit cost in a way that the smallblock probably doesn't need, seeing as how it goes into roughly half a million vehicles per year. It's the same thing as the Camaro's chassis: build enough to keep them attainable.

But yes: whereas the Camaro's chassis is beyond reproach for both discerning drivers and aspiring donut-makers, the small four and V6 are a bit more controversial. Everybody wants the V8. And I can't blame them. It sounds great, it pulls great. With the right gearing, it's fairly economical.

But government mandates cannot be denied (unless you're VW, and then only for a few years, it seems). You will need good AVERAGE FE numbers, and this is where the smaller motors will also have their place. I remember the 70s and 80s, so I take with a grain of salt those who predict the demise of the smallblock. But it will have to change.

 

I agree that Chevy needs to offer the Turbo-4, but the GM 3.6 doesn't get some phenomenal fuel economy (DI-Turbo models not withstanding) because to get any decent performance out of it you have to really wind the thing up. 

[El Kabong]

It may indeed be a beancounter thing as opposed to a government thing. Or maybe it's a preconceived-notion thing (then again, it's a Camaro). But for whatever reason, the V6 is there as opposed to the 5.3.

Another thing to consider: if GM replaced the 3.6 with the 5.3 as it's mid-level engine... it would compete directly against the Mustang EcoBoost 2.3.

...ok, changed my mind. GM needs to get this thing done, like YESTERDAY

Edited September 20, 2015 by El Kabong

[oldshurst442]

It may indeed be a beancounter thing as opposed to a government thing. Or maybe it's a preconceived-notion thing (then again, it's a Camaro). But for whatever reason, the V6 is there as opposed to the 5.3.

Another thing to consider: if GM replaced the 3.6 with the 5.3 as it's mid-level engine... it would compete directly against the Mustang EcoBoost 2.3.

...ok, changed my mind. GM needs to get this thing done, like YESTERDAY

 

When you break it down that way...it becomes a very apparent that Ford's gamble on this ecoboost 4 pot as a mid-level engine is kinda like a field bet in craps...16 ways to win...but 20 ways to lose!!!

 

 

 

 

 

You just got bitten by snake eyes!!!

 

 

 

a 5.3 liter V8....or  327 as how I would like to call it...would make a FANTASTIC engine option for the Camaro...especially as a mid-level offering...

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

Mustang is now a global car and because of that, the I4 Turbo is a must.

 

And Mustang already offers several V8 engines.

[oldshurst442]

Mustang is now a global car and because of that, the I4 Turbo is a must.

 

And Mustang already offers several V8 engines.

That is true...

about the Mustang being a global car...and so a 4 cylinder is a must...but then again...a Camaro also has a turbo 4...so that is a push...

 

 

 

So...the deal with that is that the ecoboost 4 is a mid-level offering as opposed to GM's turbo 4...less horsepower but just about an equal amount of torques...as a BASE engine for GM VS mid-level for Ford...

 

Can you say

 

 

Blackjack pays 2 to 1...

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

Ford's 2.3L offers far more torque and better fuel economy than their V6, so it is perfectly aligned in the pricing strategy.

 

And I believe their is already an upgrade to the 2.3L available next year.

[oldshurst442]

Ford's 2.3L offers far more torque and better fuel economy than their V6, so it is perfectly aligned in the pricing strategy.

 

And I believe their is already an upgrade to the 2.3L available next year.

 

Yeah...but...if its fuel eceonomy you seek...you stick to the 4 cylinder...

If its medium power with moderate fuel efficiency....you stick to the 6 cylinder...and if you want raw power...

 

With Ford...buy an ecoboost 4 cylinder for fuel economy....

 

or Ill rent myself a Mustang from Hertz for the week-end...

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

 

Ford's 2.3L offers far more torque and better fuel economy than their V6, so it is perfectly aligned in the pricing strategy.

 

And I believe their is already an upgrade to the 2.3L available next year.

 

Yeah...but...if its fuel eceonomy you seek...you stick to the 4 cylinder...

If its medium power with moderate fuel efficiency....you stick to the 6 cylinder...and if you want raw power...

 

With Ford...buy an ecoboost 4 cylinder for fuel economy....

 

or Ill rent myself a Mustang from Hertz for the week-end...

 

 

 

Ford's I4 Mustang offers it's best fuel economy, and instant torque that feels like a small V8. 

How foolish would Ford be to offer this for less money than their far weaker V6.

[oldshurst442]

 

 

Ford's 2.3L offers far more torque and better fuel economy than their V6, so it is perfectly aligned in the pricing strategy.

 

And I believe their is already an upgrade to the 2.3L available next year.

 

Yeah...but...if its fuel eceonomy you seek...you stick to the 4 cylinder...

If its medium power with moderate fuel efficiency....you stick to the 6 cylinder...and if you want raw power...

 

With Ford...buy an ecoboost 4 cylinder for fuel economy....

 

or Ill rent myself a Mustang from Hertz for the week-end...

 

 

 

Ford's I4 Mustang offers it's best fuel economy, and instant torque that feels like a small V8. 

How foolish would Ford be to offer this for less money than their far weaker V6.

 

Nope...nope it doesnt feel like a small V8...it feels like a turbocharged 4 cylinder car...

 

Weaker V6?

Only because Ford chooses it to be weaker...and muffled...and stifled...and left behind to rot in rental car parks...

[hyperv6]

Here is what we are reaching for. Power is indeed what most people aspire to.

For some it is the power of leadership be it the head of a city, country or company. For others it is large amounts of money and influence. For many it is what we can buy like large expensive houses and powerful cars.

 

For years for cars to represent power has been in the engine. We saw it way back even in the powerful cars of the 30's or even when Edsel Ford brought the world the Flat head.

With no regulations and no worry on gas prices the door was open to make more and more power. The only limiting factor was the inefficiency of the engines build on lower technology.

 

Today we have advanced the technology and the investment into things companies would not use due to cost to make smaller and more efficient engines but with much more power. We have pretty much it a wall now as cars like the Hellcat have a lot of power but really can not use all they have put it to the ground in stock daily driver form.

Now we are entering the next stage where lower mass is the new HP war. As cars drop in weight more performance is found in shorter stopping, better handling and faster performance.

 

Do we need this no we all could really live our lives in a Spark but that would not satisfy  the needs of image or expectations of most customers.

Drew the truth is DOHC has played a part in this as they are very efficient and powerful small engines but they also equate more is better to many customers and that is where the addition of technology enhances the image. To some just having a Turbo or Supercharger means more in image. Sale for DOHC and other technologies.

The engine is an air pump and to make it more efficient you need to get air in and used power out. Now with the push rod they have done very well but we are now to the point GM is working on dropping a V8 to two cylinders. Lets face it at some point they will hit the wall. Smaller displacement engines with more than 2 valves are more efficient in getting air in and used power out with lower emissions. If this were not true for smaller engines you would still have them investing in the Iron Duke. But that is an argument for another day.

Back to deal here. A Z06 is really an AK47 of the automotive world. Does anyone really need one. No! But do you feel more powerful with one and feel an enhanced image yes!. Power sells just as bigger, better, faster and Sex.

 

If you could choose the 3.6 or the 5.3 for the same price, which would you choose?  The 5.3 is cheaper, lighter, and more powerful with much much more torque than the 3.6. With AFM, the 5.3 would likely post similar highway MPG.

Drew this is not about what I would chose but it is about what choices GM will offer me in the future.

God bless the V8 and GM has done a great job with it and may be the last of the three domestic to offer it in many vehicles. But the future is where everyone is building and smaller engines are where they are going with Turbo Chargers.

It is not just MPG but also emissions that they are faces with. Lets face it I think Ford knows the needs of the future much better than anyone here and they are nearly dead with the V8. they will have it in the Trucks and yet in the Mustang for a while longer but they are now building a Supercar that will be a TTV6 and even the Raptor. Ford has show with these image products where they are going. Word is the Hemi may die in 2019 per the Chrysler web sites. It may not be too hard to expect as they do not have the money to dump into the Hemi like Chevy does with the V8.

I know the 5.3 gets good MPG for a V8 but my 3.6 gets just a little better. At this point even a part of a MPG will be taken if they can get it.

The plan I expect from GM is to keep the V8 in the larger trucks, Camaro and Corvette but even in the Vette too I expect a TTV6 as an option. They will offer the V8 but it will only be in the top end models and it will be expensive to limit sales.

I am pleased they are hanging on as long as possible.

As for most normal cars like my Malibu and Terrain the 3.6 is all they need. They are not performance cars and I am not left wanting entering a freeway. No need to go farther.

As for Camaro like in the Mustang the V6 is bought mostly by women. They love the little bit better MPG and the cheaper price. They are not street racing. Ford was 50/50 on sales and I know GM would like to match that with their Camaro. My wife's friend is the perfect example. She bought a Hot Wheels Camaro and bought the V6. It was all she wanted and is very happy with it. To be honest it is about as fast as their 4th gen LT1 that is modified a bit.

The bottom line is they offer both and you can chose what you like. It may not be too long we may not have that choice.

Edited September 20, 2015 by hyperv6

[hyperv6]

Ford's 2.3L offers far more torque and better fuel economy than their V6, so it is perfectly aligned in the pricing strategy.

 

And I believe their is already an upgrade to the 2.3L available next year.

 

Yeah...but...if its fuel eceonomy you seek...you stick to the 4 cylinder...

If its medium power with moderate fuel efficiency....you stick to the 6 cylinder...and if you want raw power...

 

With Ford...buy an ecoboost 4 cylinder for fuel economy....

 

or Ill rent myself a Mustang from Hertz for the week-end...

 

 

Ford's I4 Mustang offers it's best fuel economy, and instant torque that feels like a small V8. 

How foolish would Ford be to offer this for less money than their far weaker V6.

Nope...nope it doesnt feel like a small V8...it feels like a turbocharged 4 cylinder car...

 

Weaker V6?

Only because Ford chooses it to be weaker...and muffled...and stifled...and left behind to rot in rental car parks...

My Eco Turbo with the GM upgrade does not feel like a V8. I never had a V8 spin the tires at 50 MPH and turn the traction control light on. The first time it happened I thought I broke something when the waste gate kicked open and the light came on.

The Torque in the turbo engines has such a flat curve it will do thing a V8 will not do. Now the V8 will always sound better.

Ford is not taking a high risk here as this is where all this is going. They are trying to establish engines now before they are forced on the public. The time is coming it is not just a good thing to offer but something you must offer to meet different regulations.

I don't see what the argument is all about. All three engines are offered and you can buy what you like. Offering a smaller V8 is not going to make it any cheaper do to many reasons.

Right now I like what GM offers and wish they would bump the 4 to 300 HP but they want to remain Premium Fuel Recommended. At least offer the tune kit like my SS as I know they can go at least 340 FT LBS as they did in the Solstice.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

Sorry olds, the I4 Mustang also offers far more torque and low end pull than the future V6 camaro as well which has 284ftlbs.  And shortly after launch of camaro, Mustang will have updates as well.  So in this thread about future offerings, I think it is safe to mention another 10ftlbs for Mustang I4 from their new twin scroll turbo that is proliferating in other vehicles (Edge just got one).  So the current 320ftlbs should be about 330ftlbs. Combined with new 10 speed as well.

 

But hey, I am a huge fan of these boosted engines for both, because they are far easier and far more capable to tune more power out of them, and certainly far cheaper.....than a maxed out V6 that is already up hard against a performance wall.

 

 

And for reference, a V6 camaro will MSRP for $27.2K, compared to the $23.9K for a V6 Mustang.  

Turbo price difference is about $1.5K for camaro.

 

I honestly don't think a performance delta of a couple 1/10ths in either direction in this segment (non V8) will sway many, if any, to visit the competition instead. We all know who buys what and why.  I think it's a safe bet to assume that GM's price increases will guarantee fewer sales.  That has been the historical norm, anyway.  

[hyperv6]

http://gmauthority.com/blog/2015/09/watch-chevrolet-take-the-2016-camaro-turbo-drifting-video/

The 4 is not all about Fuel economy. It has two sides you can tap.

[oldshurst442]

Sorry folks...

 

But but we are talking about a forced induction engine versus a naturally aspired one...

Turbo charge or supercharge a V8 or a V6...

 

Here...this is what a SUPERCHARGED V8 looks like...

 

 

 

I understand Hyper...

 

But at the end of the day...its still a 4 cylinder under the hood...sure 300 horses...Id rather have 300 NATURALLY ASPIRATED horses in V6 or V8 form...

Not to sour up what the ecoboost 4 Mustang or turbo 4 Camaro are all about....its a helluva an achievement for both vehicles...however...

Dont try to sell me up on it...

 

Id rather an LT1 or LS1 from the 1990s than either 4 pot...

That is just me...

 

Im excited to see both of these 4 cylinder versions of both cars what they could do...

I understand the different and WELCOME both marketing strategies...however...at the end of the day...a NTAURALLY ASPIRATED 5.3 liter V8 is what Id rather than ANY version of the Camaro...again...that is just me...

 

But dont tell me...no matter what upgrades you do to a turbo 4 cylinder car...that it feels like a V8...because it doesnt...

It may be as fast...faster...but it definitely doesnt NOT feel like a naturally aspirated V8...

 

As with the Hellcat on top....yeah...if Im gonna go down a forced induction road...Id rather a suercharged Hemi please...not an ecoboosted 4...

Edited September 20, 2015 by oldshurst442

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

 

My Eco Turbo with the GM upgrade does not feel like a V8. I never had a V8 spin the tires at 50 MPH and turn the traction control light on. The first time it happened I thought I broke something when the waste gate kicked open and the light came on.

The Torque in the turbo engines has such a flat curve it will do thing a V8 will not do. Now the V8 will always sound better.

Ford is not taking a high risk here as this is where all this is going. They are trying to establish engines now before they are forced on the public. The time is coming it is not just a good thing to offer but something you must offer to meet different regulations.

I don't see what the argument is all about. All three engines are offered and you can buy what you like. Offering a smaller V8 is not going to make it any cheaper do to many reasons.

Right now I like what GM offers and wish they would bump the 4 to 300 HP but they want to remain Premium Fuel Recommended. At least offer the tune kit like my SS as I know they can go at least 340 FT LBS as they did in the Solstice.

 

 

Good points.

Both boosted pony engines are tuned for both power and economy, which means power gets compromised somewhat as they are divergent targets.  I suspect another 10-20hp would have dropped they FE numbers by nearly a whole mpg as well.  Can't have that of course.

 

No, I think GM's targets are just fine and plenty of performance for the 90th percentile, because we clearly see how far performance has come with these cars, which is more base performance than top level pony cars from 20 years ago.  

Edited September 20, 2015 by Wings4Life

[oldshurst442]

 

 

My Eco Turbo with the GM upgrade does not feel like a V8. I never had a V8 spin the tires at 50 MPH and turn the traction control light on. The first time it happened I thought I broke something when the waste gate kicked open and the light came on.

The Torque in the turbo engines has such a flat curve it will do thing a V8 will not do. Now the V8 will always sound better.

Ford is not taking a high risk here as this is where all this is going. They are trying to establish engines now before they are forced on the public. The time is coming it is not just a good thing to offer but something you must offer to meet different regulations.

I don't see what the argument is all about. All three engines are offered and you can buy what you like. Offering a smaller V8 is not going to make it any cheaper do to many reasons.

Right now I like what GM offers and wish they would bump the 4 to 300 HP but they want to remain Premium Fuel Recommended. At least offer the tune kit like my SS as I know they can go at least 340 FT LBS as they did in the Solstice.

 

 

Good points.

Both boosted pony engines are tuned for both power and economy, which means power gets compromised somewhat as they are divergent targets.  I suspect another 10-20hp would have dropped they FE numbers by nearly a whole mpg as well.  Can't have that of course.

 

No, I think GM's targets are just fine and plenty of performance for the 90th percentile, because we clearly see how far performance has come with these cars, which is more base performance than top level pony cars from 20 years ago.  

 

Sure...but dont tell me that an ecoboosted 4 cylinder feels like a 5.0 from Vanilla Ice days...

Sure...that ecoboosted 4 cylinder might make MORE power....be MORE fuel efficient....and it might even be FASTER....but it DEFINITELY does NOT feel like a 5.0...

 

And for a pony car...FEEL is just as important...

 

Im all for technology and moving forward and all...but for heaven's sake...dont tell me a forced induction 4 pot motor feels like a good 'ol American V8...

 

You know...even the Brits are buying more V8 Mustangs...on percentage...than Americans are...what does THAT tell you?

 

http://www.autoevolution.com/news/brits-are-proportionally-buying-more-v8-mustangs-than-americans-99184.html

 

http://blog.caranddriver.com/u-k-kicking-americas-butt-when-it-comes-to-ford-mustang-v-8-take-rates/

 

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2015/08/ford-mustang-v8-a-favorite-among-uk-buyers.html

Edited September 20, 2015 by oldshurst442

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

 

 

 

My Eco Turbo with the GM upgrade does not feel like a V8. I never had a V8 spin the tires at 50 MPH and turn the traction control light on. The first time it happened I thought I broke something when the waste gate kicked open and the light came on.

The Torque in the turbo engines has such a flat curve it will do thing a V8 will not do. Now the V8 will always sound better.

Ford is not taking a high risk here as this is where all this is going. They are trying to establish engines now before they are forced on the public. The time is coming it is not just a good thing to offer but something you must offer to meet different regulations.

I don't see what the argument is all about. All three engines are offered and you can buy what you like. Offering a smaller V8 is not going to make it any cheaper do to many reasons.

Right now I like what GM offers and wish they would bump the 4 to 300 HP but they want to remain Premium Fuel Recommended. At least offer the tune kit like my SS as I know they can go at least 340 FT LBS as they did in the Solstice.

 

 

Good points.

Both boosted pony engines are tuned for both power and economy, which means power gets compromised somewhat as they are divergent targets.  I suspect another 10-20hp would have dropped they FE numbers by nearly a whole mpg as well.  Can't have that of course.

 

No, I think GM's targets are just fine and plenty of performance for the 90th percentile, because we clearly see how far performance has come with these cars, which is more base performance than top level pony cars from 20 years ago.  

 

Sure...but dont tell me that an ecoboosted 4 cylinder feels like a 5.0 from Vanilla Ice days...

Sure...that ecoboosted 4 cylinder might make MORE power....be MORE fuel efficient....and it might even be FASTER....but it DEFINITELY does NOT feel like a 5.0...

 

And for a pony car...FEEL is just as important...

 

Im all for technology and moving forward and all...but for heaven's sake...dont tell me a forced induction 4 pot motor feels like a good 'ol American V8...

 

You know...even the Brits are buying more V8 Mustangs...on percentage...than Americans are...what does THAT tell you?

 

http://www.autoevolution.com/news/brits-are-proportionally-buying-more-v8-mustangs-than-americans-99184.html

 

http://blog.caranddriver.com/u-k-kicking-americas-butt-when-it-comes-to-ford-mustang-v-8-take-rates/

 

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2015/08/ford-mustang-v8-a-favorite-among-uk-buyers.html

 

 

 

Sorry again olds, but at 320ftlbs so early in the powerband......the current 2.3L has more torque than a Five-Oh from the 80's.

Feelings are subjective, but those are the facts.

[oldshurst442]

 

 

 

 

My Eco Turbo with the GM upgrade does not feel like a V8. I never had a V8 spin the tires at 50 MPH and turn the traction control light on. The first time it happened I thought I broke something when the waste gate kicked open and the light came on.

The Torque in the turbo engines has such a flat curve it will do thing a V8 will not do. Now the V8 will always sound better.

Ford is not taking a high risk here as this is where all this is going. They are trying to establish engines now before they are forced on the public. The time is coming it is not just a good thing to offer but something you must offer to meet different regulations.

I don't see what the argument is all about. All three engines are offered and you can buy what you like. Offering a smaller V8 is not going to make it any cheaper do to many reasons.

Right now I like what GM offers and wish they would bump the 4 to 300 HP but they want to remain Premium Fuel Recommended. At least offer the tune kit like my SS as I know they can go at least 340 FT LBS as they did in the Solstice.

 

 

Good points.

Both boosted pony engines are tuned for both power and economy, which means power gets compromised somewhat as they are divergent targets.  I suspect another 10-20hp would have dropped they FE numbers by nearly a whole mpg as well.  Can't have that of course.

 

No, I think GM's targets are just fine and plenty of performance for the 90th percentile, because we clearly see how far performance has come with these cars, which is more base performance than top level pony cars from 20 years ago.  

 

Sure...but dont tell me that an ecoboosted 4 cylinder feels like a 5.0 from Vanilla Ice days...

Sure...that ecoboosted 4 cylinder might make MORE power....be MORE fuel efficient....and it might even be FASTER....but it DEFINITELY does NOT feel like a 5.0...

 

And for a pony car...FEEL is just as important...

 

Im all for technology and moving forward and all...but for heaven's sake...dont tell me a forced induction 4 pot motor feels like a good 'ol American V8...

 

You know...even the Brits are buying more V8 Mustangs...on percentage...than Americans are...what does THAT tell you?

 

http://www.autoevolution.com/news/brits-are-proportionally-buying-more-v8-mustangs-than-americans-99184.html

 

http://blog.caranddriver.com/u-k-kicking-americas-butt-when-it-comes-to-ford-mustang-v-8-take-rates/

 

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2015/08/ford-mustang-v8-a-favorite-among-uk-buyers.html

 

 

 

Sorry again olds, but at 320ftlbs so early in the powerband......the current 2.3L has more torque than a Five-Oh from the 80's.

Feelings are subjective, but those are the facts.

 

Facts are facts...sure...but it DOES NOT  feel like a V8...

 

About those Brits wanting a V8 over the 4 pot....regardless how much they actually pay for petrol...