GM Eyed U.S. From Inception of ‘Whisper Diesel’

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

http://wardsauto.com/vehicles-technology/gm-eyed-us-inception-whisper-diesel

 

DETROIT – When the second-generation Chevrolet Cruze turbodiesel comes to market in the U.S. in 2017, the engine nicknamed “whisper diesel” will have at least one distinct advantage over its predecessor: American input.

“Our requirements here (in the U.S.) pushed it a lot,” says Mike Siegrist, assistant chief engineer, Chevy Cruze turbodiesel. “The fact that we are going to market this engine here in a Chevy Cruze helped to make it as quiet as it is.”

General Motors’ all-new 1.6L turbodiesel earned plaudits from the European motoring press shortly after it began rolling out last year in Opel products such as the Mokka small CUV. German journalists call it the “flüster diesel,” or whisper diesel, for its uncharacteristically muted noise and vibration qualities.

Europeans over the years have become accustomed to diesel clatter, mostly a result of the engine’s high-pressure fuel injectors, because that’s the region’s dominant, and cheapest, fuel. However, U.S. drivers, long bred on quiet, smooth-running gasoline V-6s and V-8s, are generally much less tolerant of diesel NVH. It’s a big reason the first diesel experiment in the U.S. in the early 1980s failed.

And while the technology has grown more civilized on both sides of the Atlantic over the years, diesel feedback remains unmistakable and coupled with a price premium of some $2,000 over a comparably equipped car with a gasoline engine, it kills the deal for most Americans.

[El Kabong]

Uh... Ram's take rate for their less-advanced half-ton diesel remains about one in six.

I'm sorry that diesel doesn't fit your PR agenda. Nevertheless, it is a viable option that GM and Mopar see fit to capitalize on.

And capitalize they will.

[G. David Felt]

This will be an exciting engine that will shock most people and should help sales of Diesels. Like the Duramax and how nice and Quiet it is, I agree that in auto's the engine needs to be quiet and in trucks you can accept more noise but that does not mean it is any less powerful. Just look at the faithful who love the quiet Duramax in comparison to the solid Cummins or Powerstroke.

[El Kabong]

Oh, definitely. I think GM will make serious hay with this thing.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

This will be an exciting engine that will shock most people and should help sales of Diesels. Like the Duramax and how nice and Quiet it is, I agree that in auto's the engine needs to be quiet and in trucks you can accept more noise but that does not mean it is any less powerful. Just look at the faithful who love the quiet Duramax in comparison to the solid Cummins or Powerstroke.

One has to wonder just how much improvement one can do with a take rate that is only 3%.  I mean, they could double that, and it would still be very low.

[El Kabong]

The business case is doubtless sound. GM didn't get to be Detroit's largest automaker for nothing.

[Drew Dowdell]

Volkswagen sells 25% to 30% of each car line with a diesel under the hood.... that's a pretty great take rate and I'm sure Chevy wants a slice of that.

 

Cadillac is going to offer a range of diesels in its cars too.

[El Kabong]

In situations where you are doing a lot of long hauls a diesel makes perfect sense. As hybrids and electrics gain more battery range they probably make more sense for many short runs or urban areas. But diesel tech is too good these days to overlook completely.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

Diesel has come a long way.

So too has gas, especially GTDI.

And far more room to grow too.

[El Kabong]

Good.

...so I hear this whisper diesel is really awesome.

Actually I didn't hear it 'cause, hey, WHISPER diesel.

HEY-oh

Edited August 10, 2015 by El Kabong

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

There is no Diesel in the world that you don't know is a Diesel, especially under load.

Idle sound of Diesel is mitigated with multi injection, little more. 

Whisper sounds pretty fluffy to me.

[El Kabong]

Look, I'm sorry that Ford is missing out on sales of almost anything profitable diesel powered vehicles.

But that doesn't mean anyone else has to

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

Ford makes plenty of Diesels, especially globally.

 

But hey, a 3% sales spike could do wonders....who can argue that.

[El Kabong]

Not sure how you can brush off any sales gain and dismiss sales drops in high-profit segments elsewhere...

"Ah wunted thet thar 'ARN block vee six becuz thuh salezmin sed it wuz the BIST way fer me to git mahlige from ma ALOOMINUM truck"

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

Charming. Great contribution and par for you.

 

 

Anyway, the latest crop of injectors will benefit from much quicker injection pulses, allowing for true multistage pulsing with adequate flow rates to soften the violent high compression ignition to multi-compression ignition.  Currently they are restricted to idle and slightly above due obviously from the quicker rpms and less time allowed between them.  But I would be surprised if the latest gen are ready for prime time in 2017.  Perhaps they are.  My Diesel involvement is minimal, but I do try to keep up with the tech papers out regularly.  Regardless, faster injectors will benefit all, including DI.

[El Kabong]

My Diesel involvement is minimal

...and yet you posted an article that was dismissive of the technology.

Stuff like this is why we can't have nice things around here anymore

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

 

My Diesel involvement is minimal

...and yet you posted an article that was dismissive of the technology.

Stuff like this is why we can't have nice things around here anymore

 

 

 

I posted an article that seemed very positive about the new Diesel coming from Europe.

 

Perhaps if you read it, you could.......oh never mind.

 

 

And what was that about nice things.

[El Kabong]

"Europeans over the years have become accustomed to diesel clatter, mostly a result of the engine’s high-pressure fuel injectors, because that’s the region’s dominant, and cheapest, fuel. However, U.S. drivers, long bred on quiet, smooth-running gasoline V-6s and V-8s, are generally much less tolerant of diesel NVH. It’s a big reason the first diesel experiment in the U.S. in the early 1980s failed.

"And while the technology has grown more civilized on both sides of the Atlantic over the years, diesel feedback remains unmistakable and coupled with a price premium of some $2,000 over a comparably equipped car with a gasoline engine, it kills the deal for most Americans."

Yup, dissing Euro tastes in NVH and ignoring the retained value over initial price premium.

You sure know how to pick 'em

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

From the same article:

 

“This (1.6L) is much quieter,” he says, comparing it to the first-generation Cruze turbodiesel. “It will set the standard for noise and vibration in the industry when it comes to the U.S. When you drive this vehicle, it is transparent.”

That’s high praise for the newcomer, because GM’s first-gen, 2.0L turbodiesel won a 2014Ward’s 10 Best Engines award in the Cruze. WardsAuto editors observed some NVH at low speeds, but found it quieter than its German counterparts and doted over its torquey performance and fuel economy that reached 46.7 mpg (5.0 L/100 km) during one long-distance test.

 

yeah, and you sure can pick them apart.

Try again, bong.

[El Kabong]

Ok.

...so you just cherry-picked the negative stuff for your OE.

Well, THAT makes it better, doesn't it?

:D

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

Ok.

...so you just cherry-picked the negative stuff for your OE.

Well, THAT makes it better, doesn't it?

:D

I picked the first few paragraphs.

 

Again, perhaps you should read the article before ruining threads.

[El Kabong]

Still trying to see how "deal killer" is a phrase you'd have in a positive article on turbodiesel engines.

Yup yup yup

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

Still trying to see how "deal killer" is a phrase you'd have in a positive article on turbodiesel engines.

Yup yup yup

 

 

Yeah, you really should read it.

 

That was just a comparative reference for American tastes for Diesel, which is obviously low compared to Europe.

 

You really have nothing here.

 

yupyup

[El Kabong]

So.

The article's title reads "GM Eyed US From Inception of Whisper Diesel," then concludes that it won't succeed in the US, which leads you to call it a positive piece.

There's an Advil moment, right there

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

Here is basic info on the multi injection, which is probably the primary enabler for less NVH.  That and better isolation of the injector to the cylinder head.

 

https://www.dieselnet.com/tech/diesel_fi.php

[El Kabong]

Good.

[Drew Dowdell]

Look, I'm sorry that Ford is missing out on sales of almost anything profitable diesel powered vehicles.

But that doesn't mean anyone else has to

 

Ford makes lots of passenger car diesels, they just don't see fit to sell them to fussy americans.   I can understand their reluctance given this country's prior history with passenger car diesels.   To be fair, at the moment everyone but the Germans are missing out on diesel passenger car sales.

[El Kabong]

It's a growth market. Props to GM for continuing to lead the way in trying to ferret out sales.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

.....lead the way, by following the Germans.

 

[ccap41]

It's a growth market. Props to GM for continuing to lead the way in trying to ferret out sales.

Leading the way with one diesel car that the take rate is 3%..? Their other diesel is outsourced to Duramax. They have one more diesel than Ford and the same number that Ram offers. I'm missing the "leading" part. Please explain.

Edited August 11, 2015 by ccap41

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

Found the article I had read about improved injectors down the road.  They claim 20% efficiency gains.  Interesting read, if you are so inclined.  Anyway, it was on my mind and dug it up.

 

http://wardsauto.com/vehicles-amp-technology/developer-says-new-injectors-promise-20-fuel-economy-gains

[El Kabong]

It's a growth market. Props to GM for continuing to lead the way in trying to ferret out sales.

Leading the way with one diesel car that the take rate is 3%..? Their other diesel is outsourced to Duramax. They have one more diesel than Ford and the same number that Ram offers. I'm missing the "leading" part. Please explain.

As whutsizface remarked, 3% is 3%. This is an advance over that toe in he marketplace. And GM is about to build on a REAL segment-buster by offering a diesel in the Canyonado.

It's the kind of thing that happens when you're dedicated to OFFERING mileage as opposed to marketing it.

Edited August 11, 2015 by El Kabong

[ccap41]

 

 

It's a growth market. Props to GM for continuing to lead the way in trying to ferret out sales.

Leading the way with one diesel car that the take rate is 3%..? Their other diesel is outsourced to Duramax. They have one more diesel than Ford and the same number that Ram offers. I'm missing the "leading" part. Please explain.

As whutsizface remarked, 3% is 3%. This is an advance over that toe in he marketplace. And GM is about to build on a REAL segment-buster by offering a diesel in the Canyonado.

It's the kind of thing that happens when you're dedicated to OFFERING mileage as opposed to marketing it.

 

That is 100% accurate, but what did/does that 3% COST? Break even? Tiny profit? Loss? I genuinely do not know. But then again this is probably a driveline that is offered in other parts of the world. Which is why I wish Ford would bring a diesel over here, for almost anything. I know they have the Kuga(Escape) overseas that has a diesel option. If that was offered here I guarantee I would give it a good look.

 

Edit: I also trust a diesel over a hybrid ten times over. I just don't have confidence in a hybrid maintenance and reliabliity like I do a diesel. A diesel is still just an engine which the configuration has been around for how many years? Hybrids honestly just scare me when it comes to actually thinking about buying one.

 

And, I'll completely give you that I already forgot about the Canyonado.. That should take off pretty well.

Edited August 11, 2015 by ccap41

[El Kabong]

The diesel in the current Cruze is a global engine, as is the new one (even as a GM guy I wind "whisper-diesel" to be a bit too cutesy).

[ccap41]

I'm a car guy like everybody else here.. I don't mind the diesel clatter one bit. I actually kind of like it. But I'm not their target buyer with the "whisper diesel". Put that in something a little bigger and we'd be talkin'. Oh, better yet. Put the baby Duramax in the Equinox/Terrain. That would be my next purchase. I realize that it is a driveine created for a RWD/4WD truck not a FWD CUV. But a guy can have a dream(a small one at that) lol.

[G. David Felt]

I'm a car guy like everybody else here.. I don't mind the diesel clatter one bit. I actually kind of like it. But I'm not their target buyer with the "whisper diesel". Put that in something a little bigger and we'd be talkin'. Oh, better yet. Put the baby Duramax in the Equinox/Terrain. That would be my next purchase. I realize that it is a driveine created for a RWD/4WD truck not a FWD CUV. But a guy can have a dream(a small one at that) lol.

Take the Terrain with the 2.9L Baby Duramax and Rock it in AWD mode and still be in the high 30's for gas mileage I bet.

I personally see no use for the clatter, the noise is not needed and I love that when GM went to Isuzu to build the Original Duramax one of the top 3 items was to be quiet like a gas engine. This proves you can have all the power of Diesel and quiet like regular gas. The Duramax is an awesome engine and my choice or the terribly noisy Powerstroke and the quieter but still noisy Cummins.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

The Duramax is not as quiet as a gas engine. 

Where did you hear that?  

Sure, Isuzu was able to take it down a notch or two, from what effectively sounded like a UPS truck....but nowhere near as quiet as a gas engine.

[G. David Felt]

The Duramax is not as quiet as a gas engine. 

Where did you hear that?  

Sure, Isuzu was able to take it down a notch or two, from what effectively sounded like a UPS truck....but nowhere near as quiet as a gas engine.

I have to disagree with you, I have had all three side by side and you clearly heard the noisy Powerstroke and then the Cummins and the Duramax was quiet. Both Powerstroke and Cummins you can still hear in the cab and it makes conversations hard, where the Duramax is quiet like a gas engine. Put the Duramax next to a GM gas engine and yes it is a bit nosier but does not have the diesel clatter and over all is on par with gas engines for noise. When the Duramax first came out this one of the points GM talked about as the power of diesel without people knowing it when it is next to you.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

 

The Duramax is not as quiet as a gas engine. 

Where did you hear that?  

Sure, Isuzu was able to take it down a notch or two, from what effectively sounded like a UPS truck....but nowhere near as quiet as a gas engine.

I have to disagree with you, I have had all three side by side and you clearly heard the noisy Powerstroke and then the Cummins and the Duramax was quiet. Both Powerstroke and Cummins you can still hear in the cab and it makes conversations hard, where the Duramax is quiet like a gas engine. Put the Duramax next to a GM gas engine and yes it is a bit nosier but does not have the diesel clatter and over all is on par with gas engines for noise. When the Duramax first came out this one of the points GM talked about as the power of diesel without people knowing it when it is next to you.

 

Idle and under load are two different operating conditions.

Diesel clatter is loud and present for all the aforementioned.

And yes, I believe the Duramax was a decibel or two less than the competition, but only at idle.  And honestly, it is hard to tell the difference.  Ford is launching a significant upgrade next year, as it is still riding on a design that is a few years old, so things will be about same at idle with updated injection.

Edited August 11, 2015 by Wings4Life

[El Kabong]

That's tomorrow tho. Today it's still pretty noisy

Edited August 11, 2015 by El Kabong

[ccap41]

 

I'm a car guy like everybody else here.. I don't mind the diesel clatter one bit. I actually kind of like it. But I'm not their target buyer with the "whisper diesel". Put that in something a little bigger and we'd be talkin'. Oh, better yet. Put the baby Duramax in the Equinox/Terrain. That would be my next purchase. I realize that it is a driveine created for a RWD/4WD truck not a FWD CUV. But a guy can have a dream(a small one at that) lol.

Take the Terrain with the 2.9L Baby Duramax and Rock it in AWD mode and still be in the high 30's for gas mileage I bet.

I personally see no use for the clatter, the noise is not needed and I love that when GM went to Isuzu to build the Original Duramax one of the top 3 items was to be quiet like a gas engine. This proves you can have all the power of Diesel and quiet like regular gas. The Duramax is an awesome engine and my choice or the terribly noisy Powerstroke and the quieter but still noisy Cummins.

 

Oh I think it would be touchy to 40mpg as long as their AWD system basically releases the other two wheels while cruising. I mean the Nox is already rated at 32mpg.. Well I guess that is FWD too.. I guess you're high 30's estimate would be more accurate. I don't know the weight different between the Colorado and Equinox but if the Equinox is a fair amount lighter they could gear it even taller.. Plus probably add some towing capability to it.

[Suaviloquent]

Small car sales are languishing in low fuel prices. I don't see why offering a diesel would make any sense.

 

There isn't as much a business case for it as it's an opportunity to test a market for its acceptability - and offer product differentiation.

 

But the eco model already is very efficient. I think it's an unnecessary option. However great an engine it is; I just don't see why they're doing it. It's bundled with the top trims anyways, so that might help mitigate extra cost of certifiying a low-volume engine for the U.S.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

I just pumped gas for $2.39.  I am filling my Fusion every 2 weeks or so, for $40.  For reference, I just picked up dinner the other day from Sonic for the family and spent $32. So gas seems very cheap these days.

 

 

yeah, Diesel is making less and less sense these days.

[El Kabong]

...except when it's 10-15% cheaper than gas, regardless of price.

Sheesh :D

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

Diesel is typically more, and will rise to it's high water mark in no time.

 

 

Regardless, people ignore the thousands of dollars premium for Diesel, especially when there are fuel efficient options that don't condemn you to driving like you have miss daisy in the back seat.

 

 

But hey, have fun with that ole bitty.  And no, I'm not talkin bout your better half.  Better, by far I am sure.

[El Kabong]

LOL@stalker up to his old tricks

...dayum, man. Stop being such a creeper...

...it's not like you're able to do any better there than here anyways :D

Edited August 11, 2015 by El Kabong

[Suaviloquent]

...except when it's 10-15% cheaper than gas, regardless of price.

Sheesh :D

 

The bear market for gas is the problem that helps diesels in fuel price parity. Inventories of gasoline are high because OPEC wants to crush domestic fuel industries of the big economies such as China and U.S.

 

The high green back then bites gas in the ass again. People are cashing out their gas futures.

 

It hurts Canada though. I don't think Alberta's doing so well these days.

 

I don't think I'd ever get a diesel Cruze, and that's because I'll never consider a compact car. There's never been a better time for diesels, but again; diesels make sense when it clearly becomes the superior economy choice.

 

I bet the base engine will approach 40 mpg highway easily for the new Cruze. That's really good for a strong tubro base motor.

Edited August 11, 2015 by Suaviloquent

[El Kabong]

Trust me, it IS hurting Alberta. I told my buddies the real estate market was gonna go for a crap the day after OPEC announced the taps would stay open. They just laughed.

I'm fairly confident my job is ok. But I have cut down on my debt in the previous year, just in case. Any newer oil sands operations are in serious trouble.

[Drew Dowdell]

The diesel in the current Cruze is a global engine, as is the new one (even as a GM guy I wind "whisper-diesel" to be a bit too cutesy).

 

It was the German automotive press that came up with that term, not GM, and I'm guessing that it just didn't translate well.

[Drew Dowdell]

Diesel is typically more, and will rise to it's high water mark in no time.

 

If you're able to make predictions like that with any sort of accuracy, what are you doing being a power train engineer instead of a commodities trader?

 

Diesel and gasoline regularly trade places for being the higher price fuel.  Diesel typically costs more than gas in the winter and then they swap in the summer.   There are occasional exceptions to that trend, but it is generally true.