Buick News: Rumorpile: What's In the Pipeline for Buick

[cp-the-nerd]

The LaCrosse had better be available with a V6 in LGX 3.6 form or sales might be soft. The new 3.6 will probably get the same mileage as the current 2 liter turbo in the Regal/Malibu so there is no excuse not to offer it in this larger sized car. And speaking of the Regal the 2016 base 160 HP Malibu engine will be a joke in a more expensive car like the Regal. It should be starting out with at least a minimum with the 200 Hp 1.6T. 

 

The 1.6T is a previous gen engine design, it's not going into any new cars unless you count the US-market Cascada as "new." IMO the Regal should get the 2.0T/8-speed standard at full power if they're going to charge $30,000+ to start. Buick cars need to move upmarket away from Chevrolet since Cadillac is working to discontinue the XTS. There's plenty of room for FWD-based luxury, they can't have the Malibu catching up to the Regal.

[Drew Dowdell]

 

The LaCrosse had better be available with a V6 in LGX 3.6 form or sales might be soft. The new 3.6 will probably get the same mileage as the current 2 liter turbo in the Regal/Malibu so there is no excuse not to offer it in this larger sized car. And speaking of the Regal the 2016 base 160 HP Malibu engine will be a joke in a more expensive car like the Regal. It should be starting out with at least a minimum with the 200 Hp 1.6T. 

 

The 1.6T is a previous gen engine design, it's not going into any new cars unless you count the US-market Cascada as "new." IMO the Regal should get the 2.0T/8-speed standard at full power if they're going to charge $30,000+ to start. Buick cars need to move upmarket away from Chevrolet since Cadillac is working to discontinue the XTS. There's plenty of room for FWD-based luxury, they can't have the Malibu catching up to the Regal.

 

 

no, the 1.6T he is referring to is the current generation. It is replacing the previous 1.6.

[cp-the-nerd]

 

 

The LaCrosse had better be available with a V6 in LGX 3.6 form or sales might be soft. The new 3.6 will probably get the same mileage as the current 2 liter turbo in the Regal/Malibu so there is no excuse not to offer it in this larger sized car. And speaking of the Regal the 2016 base 160 HP Malibu engine will be a joke in a more expensive car like the Regal. It should be starting out with at least a minimum with the 200 Hp 1.6T. 

 

The 1.6T is a previous gen engine design, it's not going into any new cars unless you count the US-market Cascada as "new." IMO the Regal should get the 2.0T/8-speed standard at full power if they're going to charge $30,000+ to start. Buick cars need to move upmarket away from Chevrolet since Cadillac is working to discontinue the XTS. There's plenty of room for FWD-based luxury, they can't have the Malibu catching up to the Regal.

 

 

no, the 1.6T he is referring to is the current generation. It is replacing the previous 1.6.

 

 

The new engine family only goes up to 1.5L because of displacement regulations in Europe. You're not going to see the 1.6T used in the new Regal.

[Drew Dowdell]

 

 

 

The LaCrosse had better be available with a V6 in LGX 3.6 form or sales might be soft. The new 3.6 will probably get the same mileage as the current 2 liter turbo in the Regal/Malibu so there is no excuse not to offer it in this larger sized car. And speaking of the Regal the 2016 base 160 HP Malibu engine will be a joke in a more expensive car like the Regal. It should be starting out with at least a minimum with the 200 Hp 1.6T. 

 

The 1.6T is a previous gen engine design, it's not going into any new cars unless you count the US-market Cascada as "new." IMO the Regal should get the 2.0T/8-speed standard at full power if they're going to charge $30,000+ to start. Buick cars need to move upmarket away from Chevrolet since Cadillac is working to discontinue the XTS. There's plenty of room for FWD-based luxury, they can't have the Malibu catching up to the Regal.

 

 

no, the 1.6T he is referring to is the current generation. It is replacing the previous 1.6.

 

 

The new engine family only goes up to 1.5L because of displacement regulations in Europe. You're not going to see the 1.6T used in the new Regal.

 

 

It's a different engine family... not a new generation. 

 

SGE - 1.0 - 1.5 liters replaces the Family 0 and some of the smaller Family 1 engines.

MGE - 1.6 liters in two power tunes replaces the 1.6 and 1.8 Family 1 engines. (Could, in theory, replace the 2.4 and 2.5 in some applications, but hasn't yet)

GenIII Ecotec - 2.0T, 2.5 - replaces the previous 2.0T, 2.2, and 2.4 Gen II ecotec 

[cp-the-nerd]

 

 

 

 

The LaCrosse had better be available with a V6 in LGX 3.6 form or sales might be soft. The new 3.6 will probably get the same mileage as the current 2 liter turbo in the Regal/Malibu so there is no excuse not to offer it in this larger sized car. And speaking of the Regal the 2016 base 160 HP Malibu engine will be a joke in a more expensive car like the Regal. It should be starting out with at least a minimum with the 200 Hp 1.6T. 

 

The 1.6T is a previous gen engine design, it's not going into any new cars unless you count the US-market Cascada as "new." IMO the Regal should get the 2.0T/8-speed standard at full power if they're going to charge $30,000+ to start. Buick cars need to move upmarket away from Chevrolet since Cadillac is working to discontinue the XTS. There's plenty of room for FWD-based luxury, they can't have the Malibu catching up to the Regal.

 

 

no, the 1.6T he is referring to is the current generation. It is replacing the previous 1.6.

 

 

The new engine family only goes up to 1.5L because of displacement regulations in Europe. You're not going to see the 1.6T used in the new Regal.

 

 

It's a different engine family... not a new generation. 

 

SGE - 1.0 - 1.5 liters replaces the Family 0 and some of the smaller Family 1 engines.

MGE - 1.6 liters in two power tunes replaces the 1.6 and 1.8 Family 1 engines. (Could, in theory, replace the 2.4 and 2.5 in some applications, but hasn't yet)

GenIII Ecotec - 2.0T, 2.5 - replaces the previous 2.0T, 2.2, and 2.4 Gen II ecotec 

 

 

Not sure I'm following you, so sorry if I misinterpret.

 

GM is currently releasing a brand new direct-injected 1.0L-1.5L engine family. The 1.4T in the current Sonic, Cruze, and Trax/Encore is being discontinued in favor of a completely new 1.4T DI engine, the Spark is getting a new engine from this family, and the 1.5T DI in the upcoming Malibu is also brand new.

 

I will be shocked if the 1.6T DI sees any new vehicle applications in the US beyond the Cascada, which isn't actually new.

[Drew Dowdell]

 

 

The new engine family only goes up to 1.5L because of displacement regulations in Europe. You're not going to see the 1.6T used in the new Regal.

 

It's a different engine family... not a new generation. 

 

SGE - 1.0 - 1.5 liters replaces the Family 0 and some of the smaller Family 1 engines.

MGE - 1.6 liters in two power tunes replaces the 1.6 and 1.8 Family 1 engines. (Could, in theory, replace the 2.4 and 2.5 in some applications, but hasn't yet)

GenIII Ecotec - 2.0T, 2.5 - replaces the previous 2.0T, 2.2, and 2.4 Gen II ecotec

 

 

Not sure I'm following you, so sorry if I misinterpret.

 

GM is currently releasing a brand new direct-injected 1.0L-1.5L engine family. The 1.4T in the current Sonic, Cruze, and Trax/Encore is being discontinued in favor of a completely new 1.4T DI engine, the Spark is getting a new engine from this family, and the 1.5T DI in the upcoming Malibu is also brand new.

 

I will be shocked if the 1.6T DI sees any new vehicle applications in the US beyond the Cascada, which isn't actually new.

 

 

 

You are correct up until the last bit.  The 1.6T is a new engine family just as the 1.0 - 1.5T is a new engine family... but they are different families.  The 1.6T family is only one year older than the 1.0 - 1.5T family. 

 

The 1.6T could show up anywhere the current 2.4 or 2.5 sit when the car needs more torque than the 1.5T is capable of.  Think next-gen Equinox and Terrain.  Think sub-SRX Cadillac crossover.  There are apparently two additional Buick crossovers in the works.   It would make a good base engine for the Regal (221 lb-ft at 1650-4250 rpm) and a fantastic top-range engine for the Verano (the next generation of which has lost a good bit of weight).  The Eco version of the 1.6T (162hp/191 lb-ft of torque) is already used in the Insignia. 

[smk4565]

Buick isn't quite moving up market, they are cutting the price of the Regal for 2016.  Anywhere from $1,000 on the base car to $3,300 on the GS.  Not sure that that will do anything for sales, I think the Regal is too much of a Euro-sport (not the chevy from the 80s) car, and it just doesn't appeal to the main stream market, or to the people going in Buick show rooms.   If you want a sport sedan, you aren't buying a Buick, the Regal should be a luxury car, rip off the Toyota Avalon interior, old people buy that, they'll buy a Buick.

[Drew Dowdell]

You haven't been in an Avalon lately I take it.

[Drew Dowdell]

Except Audi, right? Except Jaguar right?

 

- - - - -

Same old, tired, worn-out non-point : sales, sales, sales. Accountant water-cooler talk. Bean pusher fodder. Ticker-tape characters. Dusty annual report line item.

 

Who cares -as a consumer- how many OTHER people buy the car you like/buy?? What kind of self esteem-less husk of a person cares 1 iota about that?

Do you WORK in the accounting department of Daimler or General Motors?? Self-validation much? Yearn for human contact much? POINTLESS POINT MUCH?

 

- - - - - 

For the umpteenth million time, Cadillac is NOT, repeat NOT in a business mode of -above all- trying to set "BEST EVAR!" monthly records. Who the fuc wants to be in a half-dozen cluster of the same color/make/model in the morning commute? Other brands have to WHORE OUT their catalog to pump up volume; Cadillac is not under that sort of pressure.

 

Cadillac once sold 380,000 units in the U.S., when they owned the bulk of U.S. lux market. The Division has no pretenses of even thinking about trying to get back to that.

Cost prohibitive, much greater competition, and the flabby-ing of the lux market pushing all sorts of downmarket ($29K mercedes!!) precludes it. Fine- all the better to focus on PRODUCT, not sales.

 

- - - - -

You HAVE to drop this same old, boring, tired, repetitive non-point focus on sales! It's numbing in it's single-mindedness.

BTW, Cadillac ATPs are now higher than BMW... and the CT6 hasn't even gone on sale yet.

[smk4565]

I probably sat in the Avalon at the Auto show this year, if not I did for sure last year.  All I remember was that it was roomy, and the seats were cushy and beige and the carpet was beige.   But that is what the old folks like, the sales charts don't lie.  They buy the Camry and Avalon, they don't buy the Regal.

 

 

Cadillac ATP is up because the ATS and CTS sales are in the tank.  If BMW sold 1,500 3/4-series a month instead of 12,000 ATP would skyrocket.  A better measure would be to compare ATS and CTS ATP vs 3-series and 5-series ATP.  Then you are getting more of an apples to apples comparison. 

[Drew Dowdell]

I probably sat in the Avalon at the Auto show this year, if not I did for sure last year.  All I remember was that it was roomy, and the seats were cushy and beige and the carpet was beige.   But that is what the old folks like, the sales charts don't lie.  They buy the Camry and Avalon, they don't buy the Regal.

 

Then it wasn't an Avalon.

[cp-the-nerd]

Buick isn't quite moving up market, they are cutting the price of the Regal for 2016.  Anywhere from $1,000 on the base car to $3,300 on the GS.  Not sure that that will do anything for sales, I think the Regal is too much of a Euro-sport (not the chevy from the 80s) car, and it just doesn't appeal to the main stream market, or to the people going in Buick show rooms.   If you want a sport sedan, you aren't buying a Buick, the Regal should be a luxury car, rip off the Toyota Avalon interior, old people buy that, they'll buy a Buick.

 

The Regal has always been the sporty Buick. Per typical GM, a major problem is most people don't know the car exists. The Lacrosse is already a direct competitor of the Avalon and Lexus ES.

[smk4565]

Lacrosse competes more with Avalon, similar size and price although the Avalon base price is a little higher.   The Lexus ES has a base price of $38,000, and is closer in size to the Malibu than the LaCrosse.  Maybe they get cross shopped, but there is a $7,000 price gap on those 2 cars. 

 

I don't know if there needs to be a sporty Buick, they aren't a sporty brand, and the car is basically invisible in the market.

[Drew Dowdell]

Lacrosse competes more with Avalon, similar size and price although the Avalon base price is a little higher.   The Lexus ES has a base price of $38,000, and is closer in size to the Malibu than the LaCrosse.  Maybe they get cross shopped, but there is a $7,000 price gap on those 2 cars. 

 

I don't know if there needs to be a sporty Buick, they aren't a sporty brand, and the car is basically invisible in the market.

 Man... seriously... you're making stuff up... the Avalon and the ES share the same platform and same wheel base.  There is no significant size difference between the two. 

[smk4565]

I know the Avalon and ES ride the same chassis now but the ES is 192 inches long the Avalon is 195. The Lacrosse is like 197 or 199. The Lexus ES since launch in the 90s has been a mid size car.

[balthazar]

There is no difference in the minds of consumers RE a car that is 192" vs. one that is 197" (what the LaCrosse is overall). There is no perceived 'segment line' between the 2 sizes. It just doesn't register.

[Drew Dowdell]

There is no difference in the minds of consumers RE a car that is 192" vs. one that is 197" (what the LaCrosse is overall). There is no perceived 'segment line' between the 2 sizes. It just doesn't register.

 

How the dealership knows SMK is on the lot:  They see him out there with a yard stick measuring the overall length of the cars.... then they pop a Xanax and go out to greet him.

[smk4565]

Consumers might notice the $7,000 price difference between the LaCrosse and ES350 though.   And that is sticker.  I think we all know where the bigger rebate will be when it comes to Lexus and GM.

[balthazar]

Here's the numbers in central NJ for the 2015 LaCrosse ~

base model : 36 sales

Leather package : 27 sales

Premium I : 38 sales

Premium II : 262 sales

 

Premium II MSRP : $40895.

ES350 MSRP : $38,640.

 Consumers are overwhelmingly (72%) picking up loaded LaCrosses, which are eclipsing the ES's MSRP. 

 

Whoops; there goes another straw argument!

 

- - - - -

I think we all know where the bigger rebate will be when it comes to Lexus and GM.

Let's look at factual data instead of wishes on dandelions:

Average paid below ES350 MSRP : $1782

Average paid below LaC Prem II MSRP : $1853

Whoops; virtually identical!

Edited August 9, 2015 by balthazar

[Drew Dowdell]

Consumers might notice the $7,000 price difference between the LaCrosse and ES350 though.   And that is sticker.  I think we all know where the bigger rebate will be when it comes to Lexus and GM.

 

The vast majority of LaX retail buyers (and Encore buyers, and Enclave buyers, and Verano buyers) opt for the higher end trims.   Buick has told me that the Enclave is unusually skewed towards the upper trim levels compared to the Acadia and Traverse. Rarely do the LaX or Enclave roll off the lot with less than the Leather Group trim ($37k base for LaX, $45k base for Enclave) and Enclaves with AWD have a high take rate ($47k base).  Most retail Veranos and Encores also sell with at minimum of the leather group. ($27k and $30k respectively)

 

Buick has some of the best conquest rates lately.  The two most traded in vehicles?  Brace yourself.....   The Lexus RX and the Acura MDX. 

 

The base prices don't really mean much if Buick doesn't sell many of them.  Those trims seem to be mainly there to get in at a specific price point or for rental fleet buyers..... though every Buick I've rented lately (1 Verano, 2 LaX, 1 Encore) has been equipped with leather also. 

[El Kabong]

It would appear, then, that the Lexus buyer regards their car merely as a fancy Toyota. The Buick buyer appears to see their brand as an entity into itself-above Chevy, possibly on their way to Cadillac.

Alfred Sloan would be proud.

[smk4565]

If Buick has so many "loaded" sales, why continue to sell the $31k model?  Why not make the base Lacrosse $37,000 so premium 1 is the new standard trim.  Either way we are talking about Buick's most expensive car versus what has usually been the Lexus entry level car until the CT200 came along.  I guess I could argue a Hyundai Azera is on par with a Cadillac ATS because an Azera has a higher price, thus making Hyundai a luxury brand, but it just isn't true.  Buick is still not a luxury brand, never will be, never should be.  Cadillac is the luxury brand.

[Drew Dowdell]

If Buick has so many "loaded" sales, why continue to sell the $31k model?  Why not make the base Lacrosse $37,000 so premium 1 is the new standard trim.  Either way we are talking about Buick's most expensive car versus what has usually been the Lexus entry level car until the CT200 came along.  I guess I could argue a Hyundai Azera is on par with a Cadillac ATS because an Azera has a higher price, thus making Hyundai a luxury brand, but it just isn't true.  Buick is still not a luxury brand, never will be, never should be.  Cadillac is the luxury brand.

 

You could argue that, but you'd still be wrong.  We're talking about cars in the same segment here. Two brand that don't fully overlap can have cars in the same segment even when others of the brand do not. 

 

Whether Lexus likes it or not, Buick has at least two vehicles that compete directly with two of their products.   

 

I'm not a product planner at Buick, but they must sell at least enough of the low end trims to justify producing them.  Even if it's 3/4 premium trims and 1/4 non-premium trims, why would you give up those sales?

[cp-the-nerd]

If Buick has so many "loaded" sales, why continue to sell the $31k model?  Why not make the base Lacrosse $37,000 so premium 1 is the new standard trim.  Either way we are talking about Buick's most expensive car versus what has usually been the Lexus entry level car until the CT200 came along.  I guess I could argue a Hyundai Azera is on par with a Cadillac ATS because an Azera has a higher price, thus making Hyundai a luxury brand, but it just isn't true.  Buick is still not a luxury brand, never will be, never should be.  Cadillac is the luxury brand.

 

You're making an argument based on the false notion that cars are either mainstream or luxury. There's mainstream, entry lux (Buick/Acura), luxury (BMW/Cadillac), and super lux or premium or whatever you want to call them (Bentley, Rolls). The industry is full of gray areas, case in point, Toyota covers entry lux and luxury with Lexus. GM covers those two tiers with Buick and Cadillac, and they've found a strong market despite both brands moving significantly upscale from where they were 10 years ago.

[balthazar]

Another factor is choice; giving the consumer more of it often gains you more buyers. It's part of the reason the domestic trucks lines slaughter the japanese; so many models, style, configurations & packages.

 

No; the LaCrosse doesn't outsell the ES, but there's never a singular cause for any number on a sales chart. LaC needs a bunch more marketing.

[smk4565]

If the Enclave is RX350 competition then the Enclave must compete even more so with the Cadillac SRX. The SRX is larger than the RX350 and priced below the Enclave. RX350 is priced above Enclave.

[G. David Felt]

If the Enclave is RX350 competition then the Enclave must compete even more so with the Cadillac SRX. The SRX is larger than the RX350 and priced below the Enclave. RX350 is priced above Enclave.

That is one way to look at it but then the MB GLA and GLK are also competitors with Buick, Acura and just about everyone else in the auto industry based on the starting price. Just another average CUV.

[Drew Dowdell]

If the Enclave is RX350 competition then the Enclave must compete even more so with the Cadillac SRX. The SRX is larger than the RX350 and priced below the Enclave. RX350 is priced above Enclave.

 

You need to make up your mind:

Do vehicles compete on size only and no other factors?

Do they compete on price only and no other factors?

Do vehicles compete only if their parent brand overlaps in the segment in each and every model and only on that factor?

 

Or...could it possibly be more nuanced than that?

[smk4565]

Vehicles compete mostly on size and price.  The Enclave for example is a 3 row full size SUV.  The Lexus RX is on the small side of the mid-size SUVs and seats 4 adults.  That is why I don't think they compete with either other.  Just like a Mercedes CLA and Chrysler 300 despite being the same price don't compete with each other, because one is full size, one is compact.

[Drew Dowdell]

Vehicles compete mostly on size and price.  The Enclave for example is a 3 row full size SUV.  The Lexus RX is on the small side of the mid-size SUVs and seats 4 adults.  That is why I don't think they compete with either other.  Just like a Mercedes CLA and Chrysler 300 despite being the same price don't compete with each other, because one is full size, one is compact.

 

The Enclave competes with the RX precisely because it offers a 3rd row. These are the "grandparents" cars.. and then they go shopping they like the RX, but the Enclave gives them the same luxuries but also offers a 3rd row for the grand kids. The RX is the most traded in vehicle when people buy a new Enclave.   They are similar enough in their size segment that they compete.  Buick will also be going after the 2-row segment as well, so it will be double trouble for Lexus from Buick.

 

The CLA and the 300 aren't even remotely similar in size

[smk4565]

The Enclave is 15 inches longer and 800 lbs heavier than an RX350. That is about the gap on a CLA and 300.

[Drew Dowdell]

The Enclave is 15 inches longer and 800 lbs heavier than an RX350. That is about the gap on a CLA and 300.

 

RX is the most traded in vehicle for Enclaves.

[smk4565]

Lexus needs a more viable 3 row crossover for that reason.  If you drove an RX and now need something bigger, you have to buy American or spend a lot more on a German 7 seater.

[Robert Hall]

Lexus needs a more viable 3 row crossover for that reason.  If you drove an RX and now need something bigger, you have to buy American or spend a lot more on a German 7 seater.

The GX seems to fill that niche, it's 7 passenger.

[Drew Dowdell]

Lexus needs a more viable 3 row crossover for that reason.  If you drove an RX and now need something bigger, you have to buy American or spend a lot more on a German 7 seater.

 

But that doesn't automatically mean those RX buyers can afford GX.  And what's the problem with buying American?  People trading their RXes in for an Enclave are getting their automotive needs met with that move. 

[smk4565]

I don't think the GX is too expensive, I just think it sucks.  It is body on frame, has a 4.6 liter V8 making a whopping 301 hp, and gets 15/20 mpg.  I didn't even realize how bad it was until I looked up some of the specs on it.  5,128 lbs, and it is only 192 inches long which is about the size of a GLE.  The 3rd row looks like 2 fold away chairs you'd have kids sit in on the beach.  And can I say again a 4.6 liter V8 making 301 horsepower!!!  That is 1998 level stuff. 

 

I am not saying there is anything wrong with buying American.  But from the Toyota/Lexus point of view, if you have a customer that wants something bigger (or more expensive or more luxurious) than the RX350, Lexus doesn't have it.  The GX and LX are dinosaurs, the LS sedan is a dinosaur.   Obviously a lot of RX buyers buy another RX, but the ones that don't are going to leave the Lexus brand most likely.  Poor strategy on Lexus's part.