Buick News: Rumorpile: What's In the Pipeline for Buick

[William Maley]

We know the latest product that Buick dealers will be getting in the near future is the Cascada convertible starting sometime early next year. But what comes after that? Automotive News has done some sleuthing and has come up with possible timeline of what to expect from 2016 to 2019.

 

2016

• First up is a redesign of the Buick Verano that will likely appear in the second half of 2016. The model is expected to grow in length and interior size. Either a 1.4T or 1.5T will be the base engine, while a new version of the 2.0T will be available.
• Next is the LaCrosse which will get a full redesign that will go on sale next fall. Spy shots show the model grow in size. The new LaCrosse will be based on the new Chevrolet Malibu. Four-cylinders engines are being debated for the powertrain, along with a hybrid.
• The long-awaited Envision crossover will be coming in the fall.
• Finishing up 2016 is a refresh of the Encore subcompact crossover. Interior updates are also planned.
  

2017

• The second-generation Regal will go into production sometime in 2017. The model will grow in size to give some space between it and the Verano. A 1.5T is expected to be the base engine, followed by the 2.0T. In the cards is a diesel engine and a wagon.
• Midyear will see the second-generation Enclave. The new model will use the new, lighter platform that will underpin the Chevrolet Traverse.
  

2018

• We know that it has been rumored that Buick will be getting the Opel Adam, but not until the second-generation model. Automotive News says it could happen in 2018 or sometime thereafter.
  

2019

• A redesign of the Encore is expected to happen.
  

Source: Automotive News (Subscription Required)

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[G. David Felt]

This seems like a logical line of what will happen. I wonder what concept surprises they will have in store for us at the auto shows coming up.

[smk4565]

There is a whole lot of "grow in size" going on with their lineup.

[riviera74]

About the growth in size:  Car size growth has happened all over the automotive landscape for decades.

 

My concern is the new LaCrosse.  The new LaX is based on the new Malibu?!  Why not the XTS/Impala instead?

[ZL-1]

Newer architecture vs the XTS/Lacrosse's older architecture.

[cp-the-nerd]

Yeah, the article worded it wrong. The Lacrosse is simply going on the Malibu's new chassis, which is essentially a re-engineered Impala/XTS chassis for higher strength, and much lower weight. The Lacrosse will be full size like the Impala/XTS but will shave 200-300 lbs.

Edited July 23, 2015 by cp-the-nerd

[Carguy]

I was hoping the next gen Regal was going RWD based and sized between the Cadillac ATS and CTS. That way they could do a coupe version and a new Grand National version of that using the 3.6 Turbo V6 from the ATS V for power! Then the ATS V could get the upcoming Cadillac exclusive 4.5L 500HP Turbo V8!----Oh well!

[daves87rs]

Lots of stuff going on.....

[G. David Felt]

I was hoping the next gen Regal was going RWD based and sized between the Cadillac ATS and CTS. That way they could do a coupe version and a new Grand National version of that using the 3.6 Turbo V6 from the ATS V for power! Then the ATS V could get the upcoming Cadillac exclusive 4.5L 500HP Turbo V8!----Oh well!

Never give up hope, Nothing says they still could not do a new Grand National using the Camaro platform.

[smk4565]

I think Malibu, Impala, LaCrosse, and Regal will all be on the same platform.  Hopefully the XTS is dead at the end of this cycle.  I don't think they'll do a Grand National, because GM doesn't have 40% market share like back in the 80s.  So I suspect they won't want in house competition for the Camaro or ATS.   Plus I think a GNX would be low volume, and the cost to get it crash tested and emissions certified, etc probably makes it not worth it.  It would be nice for them to do a Riviera coupe, they could even be off the next generation Epsilon platform, and share powertrain with the Regal or LaCrosse.

Edited July 23, 2015 by smk4565

[Drew Dowdell]

About the growth in size:  Car size growth has happened all over the automotive landscape for decades.

 

My concern is the new LaCrosse.  The new LaX is based on the new Malibu?!  Why not the XTS/Impala instead?

 I imagine that architecture will be going away. 

There is supposedly another SUV coming as well. 

I'm surprised Verano is still that far off. I expected it sooner.  The current one is still nice, but getting a tit bit dated

[El Kabong]

About the growth in size:  Car size growth has happened all over the automotive landscape for decades.

 

My concern is the new LaCrosse.  The new LaX is based on the new Malibu?!  Why not the XTS/Impala instead?

Aside from the industry-wide trend in car growth, it would be he only logical way for them to insert the Adam into the lineup without having the Regal/Verano size issues they currently have.

[cp-the-nerd]

 

About the growth in size:  Car size growth has happened all over the automotive landscape for decades.

 

My concern is the new LaCrosse.  The new LaX is based on the new Malibu?!  Why not the XTS/Impala instead?

Aside from the industry-wide trend in car growth, it would be he only logical way for them to insert the Adam into the lineup without having the Regal/Verano size issues they currently have.

 

 

How so? The Adam is a mini car, the size of the Spark.

[oldshurst442]

I would like to see a Grand National....but not as you think...

My idea of the Grand National would be based on the next Regal...TTV6 with AWD...For sure the next Insignia would be getting an OPC version...well, my Grand National would be based on the OPC...with a tad more bite.

I dont want a RWD Grand National...

1. Buick is no longer where it was in the 1960s...nor the 1980s...and thank goodness...no where near it was in the 2000s....which means that Buick's renaissance is made with Buick's new image...therefore a new Grand National also deserves a new formula.

2. A Regal hasnt been RWD in over 20 years...a FWD W-Body Regal had ups...and then it had its downs...bad enough downs that they muddled the name Regal and the name Century...bad enough downs that Buick stupidly  merge the two into one....bad enough downs where enough years went on by that NECESSITATED Buick to just merge the two COMPLETELY together and rename the two into one FWD W-Body Lacrosse...But....with a surprise renaissance...Buick gave us back a very European and competent Regal...and so a Regal T-Type, Grand National and maybe a GNX top dog....deserve a brand new identity too...

3. Leave Cadillac with RWD/AWD TTV6 performance...Buick can handle all the FWD/AWD performance...

 

Next up...Id like to see an Avenir type Park Avenue with a 4 door coupe version called Riviera...just like how Mercedes does an E Class and CLS...

[El Kabong]

About the growth in size:  Car size growth has happened all over the automotive landscape for decades.

 

My concern is the new LaCrosse.  The new LaX is based on the new Malibu?!  Why not the XTS/Impala instead?

Aside from the industry-wide trend in car growth, it would be he only logical way for them to insert the Adam into the lineup without having the Regal/Verano size issues they currently have.

 

How so? The Adam is a mini car, the size of the Spark.

I'm fairly sure the next-gen one won't be.

[riviera74]

Yeah, the article worded it wrong. The Lacrosse is simply going on the Malibu's new chassis, which is essentially a re-engineered Impala/XTS chassis for higher strength, and much lower weight. The Lacrosse will be full size like the Impala/XTS but will shave 200-300 lbs.

 

Oh thank goodness for that.  I have never understood why the XTS was not a Buick in the first place.  Less weight is always a good thing. 

[oldshurst442]

 

Yeah, the article worded it wrong. The Lacrosse is simply going on the Malibu's new chassis, which is essentially a re-engineered Impala/XTS chassis for higher strength, and much lower weight. The Lacrosse will be full size like the Impala/XTS but will shave 200-300 lbs.

 

Oh thank goodness for that.  I have never understood why the XTS was not a Buick in the first place.  Less weight is always a good thing. 

 

Because Cadillac needed a bridge gap car.

You know...traditional Cadillac buyers needed to go somewhere...so...why throw them out to the curb?

And traditional Cadillac buyers didnt necessarily mean they would automatically go to Buick....now that the Cadillac  CT6 has arrived...traditional buyers of Cadillac actually have a choice with the CT6...and now that Buick has fixed its image...traditional Cadillac buyers that dont want a RWD car...might actually consider a Buick...now that Buick is slowly filling the premium class of luxury that Cadillac had....because lets face it...Cadillac was not top tier luxury 5 years ago, Cadillac was really premium and Buick was not really premium...Buick was more or less...mainstream...like a Chevy...

[smk4565]

Buick can't go really high up market with sedans or coupes with $50k+ Aviners or Rivieras, etc.  Cadillac struggles to sell 2,000 CTS a month at that price, a Buick would sell worse, and a large car would sell worse than a mid-size.  $25-45,000 is the Buick sweetspot.

 

What I'd do, as I put in another thread is call the next Verano the Regal, which would be 185 inches long, 1.5 liter and 2.0 liter turbo 4 engines.  Optional all wheel drive.  Priced at $24k base so it is well above the Cruze, but still cheaper than the current Regal that doesn't sell well.  The Envision would share chassis, engines, etc with this Regal.

 

The next Malibu is to be 193 inches long, perfect size for the LaCrosse and you could price it around $30k, undercutting the Azera, Maxima and Cadenza which are also about 193 inches long, and still priced well enough above the Malibu.  2.0T standard here, I'd V6 as well, all wheel drive option.

 

Sedan #3 is the Park Avenue, which would be 201 inches long like an Impala or XTS is now.  This you could price around $38k, a $10k premium over a base Impala.  V6 and all wheel drive, maybe a turbo 4/hybrid option also.  This would compete with ES350 and MKZ, although be larger than those cars, and help fill the void left by the XTS.

 

Then you have the Cascada convertible on the Delta platform, and I would do a Riviera priced about $34k with very limited options because above $40k there are too many luxury coupes to pick from, including ATS, so you want to stay away from that.  Riviera should be mid-size, a little larger than Camaro, luxury focused, maybe the 3.6 V6 is the stand alone engine, because this is a low volume car I'd think, and probably older buyers who would want a V6 over a turbo 4.

[hyperv6]

Well we are in a transitional time for Cadillac and Buick.

 

The listing is pretty much how it is going to work.

FWD and AWD is mostly going to make up most of the line up in cars and CUV models. The Lacrosse did not go to the Impala and XTS because that one is going to die. It is already on the enlarges Lacrosse platform as it is. The key it to cut mass and not cut into profits and that is why they chose the new Malibu platform. It will be a larger car but will see weight savings and profit protected.

As Cadillac moves up the Buicks will get an Omega. I expect a sedan and coupe. Now even if it is called a Grand National for what ever reason it will not be a black retro muscle car. They would be better off using a new name as it will be more like a Euro GT coupe. These cars will get the TT V6 as Cadillac moves to their own engines. Buick will get more use because of this.

Also Buicks will fill the Cadillac price range. This is one of the reasons they can not just under price Cadillac's on a whim. They have set their path and they have to stick to it for the whole program to work. The key now is to take Cadillac to the place they will be worth the cost. Johann has made it clear that they have good cars now but not good enough. To be the best in class you must build the best to where no one can say different. That is their target and that is why the new cars got kicked down the road now that the new money arrived.

 

Buick is only in the first stage of rebuilding and like Chevy and Cadillac it will take two or three generations to get them to where they need to be.

 

Just re bodying a Camaro is not going to fix Buick they have to take an Alpha or Omega and make it their own. Cadillac has to move away from Buick just as Buick needs to move away from Chevy. Cars like the new models and the second gen Adam will help do this.

 

Buick moving up also helps Chevy as they do not have to over price cars like ford has done with the Fusion and Taurus. Lets face it a $40K plus AWD Fusion is a bit much just as a SVO Taurus nearing $50K. GM can lay these more premium models on Buick and give people a car that is a step up over the Value brand. You will get a whole new brand for your money vs. a fancy version of the value model. I think Ford will miss Mercury as they let them wither on the vine. Mercury failed do to neglect not the concept of having a middle brand.
 

[smk4565]

I am not sure an Omega car for Buick is a good idea.  I think the top Buick sedan should have a price starting in the high $30s.  And how many cars does Buick need, if you have Verano-Regal-LaCrosse as a 3 sedan line up, plus a Cascada convertible.  Unless they could do a Riviera coupe on Omega and keep that priced at $40k.  But then you have a Lincoln Mark VIII type large coupe, and that didn't sell 20 years ago back when cars sold, now people want crossovers.  I don't think Buick needs a 4 sedan line up, I see Buick versions of the Cruze-Malibu-Impala as more reasonable, a sedan smaller than the Cruze I don't think has a place at Buick, plus they have the Encore which is sub-compact.

[El Kabong]

Re. hyperV6: I don't think Buick needs to rebuild, at least not in the same way Cadillac currently is. Just keep updating the product, give it good differentiation in size, and get the odd stroke of luck/genius with innovation (hello, Encore!).

And an Omega coupe. Because of course Omega coupe.

[oldshurst442]

Re. hyperV6: I don't think Buick needs to rebuild, at least not in the same way Cadillac currently is. Just keep updating the product, give it good differentiation in size, and get the odd stroke of luck/genius with innovation (hello, Encore!).

And an Omega coupe. Because of course Omega coupe.

Yup....I agree. And nothing wrong with riding on somebody else's coat tails either....(hello  Adam...with the whole Fiat 500 thing) while doing that whole Adam thing...forging and strengthening the whole "this aint your father's Buick campaign they got going on...along with the Cascada...and let me say that the Cascada...is no way lookin' like a traditional American car....let alone a Buick.  And that is why, for me, a Grand National need not be a RWD muscle car, if fact, I prefer that it wasnt.

 Next generation Opel Insignia OPC/Vauxhaul Insignia VXR  is what I want the Grand National to be....possibly with a tad more horsepower bite than its German/English counterparts...

[hyperv6]

SMK you need to start playing with the reality blocks.

#1 The Omega needs to be used for more than the CT6 and 8

#2 The Avenir was well reaccepted and would make a nice full size addition with a TT V6 leaving the V8 to Cadillac.

 

#3 How in the hell do you think you will get a Omega Riviera at $40K Coupes are a hard sell and even a Malibu is nearing $40k today. You will not get much Riv for $40K

 

A 4 model line up would do well and help leverage out the Omega much better. Cadillac is going to a place where few can afford to buy and if you do not offer something below it people will go else where. The Avenir was too close to production to ignore. With the CT6 coming this year I would not be surprised to see a production Avenir next year.

The Encore has been a surprise and the Verano is a nice option for those who want more in a small car since so few are offered. It would be nice if they moved the engines away from the Cruze a little more. You pay more you should get more.

 

The Verano, Regal, Lacrosse and Avenir will make a good line up and an Omega Coupe shared with Cadillac would make a nice Riv starting at $50K by the time it would reach market in 2018-19. Offer it in a GS model with TT V6 and AWD.  That would make a very good GT Car for the money and not step on the Camaro.

El it would not be a complete rebuild but a revamp of the present models. Lets face it they are all old and all need the new platforms. GM has done well but we do not need to repeat history with the never dying W body. It was a good car but it did stay too long due to the lack of money.

[smk4565]

Suppose Buick makes an Avenir with a twin turbo V6, what would that cost $55-60,000?   Let's say they price it like an Equus or K900, which have 430 hp V8s and a lot of equipment, and yet we see those sell less than 3,000 units per year.  Not a lot of volume there.  Then what happens to the CT6 if there is a Buick with the same chassis, same size, and a 400 hp engine for less than the 265 hp engine CT6, talk about stepping on toes.

 

The LaCrosse is supposed to grow in size too, it could be similar size to an Avenir.  You can use RWD and more luxury and power as the differentiater, but I'd see that car would have to be priced more like a Genesis or top end Chrysler 300.  Maybe they can have room for the current LaCrosse to go up $2,000 in price and still get the Park Avenir in around $40-50k segment.  That could be a solid product, probably not a lot of volume in the USA, but they'd have China sales.

 

I think a mid-size Riviera could easily be priced around $40k (regardless of platform they choose) and this would be priced in line with the A5, RC350, 4-series, and Infiniti Q60 or whatever the G37 is now.  Granted those are all a bit smaller and sporty, the Regal could offer interior space and a quiet, more comfortable ride.  Even at $40-45k you are asking buyers to pass on a Lexus, Infiniti, Audi and BMW and pick a Buick that is a tough sell as it is, maybe doable if it looks great and is mid-size compared to the competition's small size.

 

To price a Riviera in the $50-60k range is suicide.  One coupe has a base price in that range and it is the E-class, the rest all gave up.  Even being the only mid-size luxury 2-door on market, the E Coupe isn't a huge seller.  So you think the Buick Riviera can challenge the E-class and buyers are going to spend $60k on a Buick coupe?  Never going to happen, it would sell worse than the Cadillac ELR.

 

Let's remember the Cadillac sedan sales are weak, and their sedans have base prices at $33k, $44k, and $44k.  Hard to say Cadillac will rapidly move up market when they can't get sales where they are, and if Cadillac can't get big volume at those prices, how does Buick do it?

[hyperv6]

Lets put to truth and reality and not a lot of suppose and what ifs.

The Buick would be $55-60K realistically. It would be priced just in and around the Equus. The V8 there is not going to live for ever and the TT V8 will have more than enough power to deal with the V8. You say 3,000 units and just what is that based on. It could easily 30,000 units too.

What happens to the CT6? little as it will have so much more technology and at the price frame it is in the car will sell in lower volumes but yet remain profitable. The new Hybrid will be for once the real deal and the DOHC V8 should also set it apart. The CT6 will offer things Buick will have years from now after the Cadillac moves on.

The Lacrosse is still going to be smaller and FWD.AWD based with only a Turbo 4 and we are not even sure it will have a V6 yet.

If you want RWD and any real technology and luxury the only way you could do it for 40K is to make it a Coupe on the Verano. Get real here. You could do a Coupe Omega or even Alpha for 50-55. Make it any lower you will not really have a Riv. Look around and real luxury and entry luxury start at $40K for FWD and get higher up as you add AWD and RWD. Hell a AWD Fusion is $40,000 plus sticker now.

Cadillac sale may be lower than expected but they are still making money at the higher price point. In the future it has been clearly explained they are not expected to be a volume brand anymore but a lower more exclusive brand that takes real means to buy. No more Faux Rich. You either have it or you are buying a Buick. The key here is you really will need money to buy one and not just pretend you are rich on a cheap lease deal.

I have Johans e mail address and he answers it. May be he could explain it to you again.

In this day and aged of $35K Malibu's $45K Camaros and Impalas Buick has to up their game with better cars and fill the segment Cadillac has been in. Cadillac is just now starting on the real effort to make cars that are suited for the price range they are targeting. Johan just took the job last July and we will not see the full results of his efforts for a little longer. When he stated the CT6 was not the flag ship but a new car would take that place that sent a real signal. He basically said the CT6 which will be a good car is not good enough and we will see better. We will get real Cadillac engines that are not compromised by low budgets and we will not see GM argue with them over the price of a Door handle as Mark Ruess had to do with the CT6. Yes GM jumped on mark because it was a few more buck than they wanted to spend on their flagship? This is why they are going to NYC.

[smk4565]

If Cadillac can do an Alpha coupe for $40k, I am pretty sure Buick can.  The ATS starts at $33,000, even a near loaded ATS is around $50k.   And if you do a Riviera for $45-50k, I still don't see people buying that over an Infiniti, Lexus, Cadillac, Mercedes, Audi or BMW.  Because all those luxury brands can make a coupe for $40,000.   This is the same reason the Equus and K900 don't sell, they aren't from a luxury brand.  Very few will buy a Hyundai when you can get a Lexus or Mercedes at the same price.

 

Cadillac hasn't made this pricing move up market yet either, the CTS is priced below the 3 Germans, the Jaguar XF, Lexus GS and Infiniti Q70.  The ATS is priced below the A4, C-class, IS, and probably Jaguar XE.  So Cadillac is playing to the lower end of the price spectrum of the luxury market already.  Moving to equal the others doesn't really create all that much more room for Buick, a few thousand dollars maybe.  Cadillac isn't going to some super high end pricing like where Porsche is.

 

As far as profitability goes, GM just released their 2nd quarter numbers.

2.4 million vehicles sold, $1.1 billion in net profit.   That is $458 per unit.  We know GM makes money on pickups, they are probably losing money on their sedan lineup with those numbers.

 

Daimler by comparison, 714,800 units sold, $2.4 billion in profit, or $3,637 per unit.  (those include their commercial trucks also)

[smk4565]

On the Riviera, if they made it $55,000, who buys it?  There is no market for luxury mid-size or full size coupes.

 

You can get a E400 coupe with a twin turbo V6 and AWD for $56,700, add $6,600 for Premium 1 and 2 packages and you at $64k.  This is the only mid-size luxury coupe for sale right now.  The only large coupe in the $40-70,000 space is the Dodge Challenger SRT, since a base challenger is $27k, hard to count that one.   Obviously demand for $45-60,000 dollar mid to large coupes is tiny.  The 2 door coupes in that price range are things like Cayman, Corvette, 4-series, ATS, RC, Audi TT, Alfa 4C, etc.  Pure sports cars or compacts. 

[ZL-1]

Omega can eventually underpin the CT5 as it is able to support current CTS sized cars. However, that would mean Alpha can be profitable with 2 or 3 Cadillac models (sedan, coupe/convertible and a crossover or two) plus the Camaro.

 

 

EDIT - was supposed to quote hyperv6 post #23 above but the quote button didn't work...

Edited July 27, 2015 by ZL-1

[hyperv6]

My Quote has not worked for a while either.

Smoke and at $40K it would not be any better than a Camaro so why have it? We do not need two Camaro's nor does the Camaro need Vent ports.

To do the Riv Right as it will be a lower volume car you need to get a better price. Second you add many features that cars at $55K do not offer. At this price you can add a top notch AWD package not just for winter driving but one for better performance.

In other words you will build an A6 Audi coupe at a better price with more advanced features and you can not do that for $40K very well.

ZL-1 I expect more on the Alpha or the next version of it. We already have three models and variations on the ATS on it now. I expect more added but not sure if the Crossovers will be here soon on it.

The Omega has one model now and I think they would need 3-4 on it to keep it viable. I would not be surprised to see a version replace the SS and Impala as one car at some point and a Buick AVENIR added. With the weight loss it opens the door to let them do more with this model.

Might note how they talk about the Lacrosse replacement but not the Impala and the platform is going to go away before long. I expect a shift to the larger Omega for the Impala. Just call it a hunch.

[smk4565]

If they can make a Camaro 2.0T for $25k, and a V6 one under $30k I'd assume, you use those same engines in a Buick Riviera and you add $10k into the interior, making a $35-40,000 coupe.  They can make a fairly well optioned LaCrosse for under $40k as even the LaCrosse starts at $31k.  I am pretty sure you could make a car equally nice to the LaCrosse in 2 door form for the same price.

 

Coupes overall are a hard sell, the Monte Carlo and Camry Solara are dead, Acrua CL is dead, Lincoln doesn't make a coupe.  Cadillac and Lexus have 1 coupe each.  The coupe market is small, I think for a Riviera to have a chance you keep the price low, even if it was like a 2 door version of the Regal with 4-cylinder only for $30k.

 

I don't know what the best course of action is for a Buick coupe, I am just saying coupes in general are slow sellers, the one segment they sell is the 4-series, C-class, A5 segment, and Buick isn't going to make it against those guys, so they need to find another segment.

 

As far as Omega platform, the S-class platform underpins 1 car (unless you count sedan, coupe, convertible as 3 models) and it is more than economically viable.  So it is possible to make money on Cadillac only Omegas, make a CT6, CT8 and Eldorado, hell make a crossover on it.

[hyperv6]

I have no issue with the car you describe but to call that a Riviera would be like taking a Grand Am from the 80's and calling it a GTO. Even the damaged culture at GM knew better than that and never went farther than a show car.

 

Coupes are hard sells and to do it right you really have to expect to sell lower volumes and to do that at a profit you need to sell at a higher price. The blessing of higher prices is that you can sell so many fewer cars and still make the same profit of a lower priced high volume This is where Cadillac is at today. While they are selling fewer cars the higher price point has kept profits where they were as they transition to a new line of product and also try to build a more elusive image that is not found in the Wal Mart Parking lot.

 

The reason GM killed the business case for the Code 130 coupe is there is just no volume right now. Toyota/Subaru is struggling and even the Hyundai coupe has not faired as well as they would have liked. The Camaro and Mustang are still very popular due to their long heritage but new up starts have a limited appeal.

So to be honest I do not think there is anyone here that does not understand Coupes are hard sells. GM knows it and nearly everyone else playing with reality knows it.

 

The bottom line is If  you want a $40K coupe make it a GN or GSX or what every you like and make it a more GT like car that is no where like the Camaro. TTV6 and AWD but if you go there and you want it to be right you are back to $50K.

 

The reality is $50,000 is not really an expensive car anymore and is really just a little above average. Hell most half ton trucks are $45K-55K anymore.

 

 

As it is now there is no Eldo planned, No SUV planned unless that has changed recently and that leaves only the CT8 and CT6. We know the Omega is much more flexible so I would expect that one of the other divisions to get it being Buick and I would not be shocked if they would do a Impala/Caprice/SS all on one platform.The low weight would really make this more possible. Not sure if they will go that way but the way the car was constructed it is not a majorly expensive platform so a lower volume Chevy large sedan could be done.

 

To make a Riv anything less than the top line model in a Coupe from is a disaster in the making. And to sell it at a lower price it is a total failure as you will not have a chance to make any money. To make this work you need to expect lower volumes, higher prices and features that will draw people to this over a Similar priced Camaro. Hell if you are going to pay $40K for a V6 Buick you may as well opt for a Camaro SS.

[smk4565]

I don't think the Riviera name is so hallowed that it couldn't be used for a $35-40k car.  The 90s Riviera was $35k, and I understand we have had inflation.  Sports car buyers buy a Camaro.  You make the Riviera a entry lux car, that doesn't have a lot of performance.  Actually the perfect way to design it is to think of it as a 2 door Lexus ES350.  Soft luxury, a 2.0T is enough engine for it.

 

An Avenir sedan would do better than any Buick coupe on Omega, but a Buick Avenir is going to be CTS money or maybe more, why overlap Cadillac with Buick.  And I am not so convinced that Cadillac is such a huge profit center (outside of Escalade) when the CTS is priced $5,000 below most competitors, and Cadillac's incentive spend has been among the highest in the luxury segment.

 

If GM wants a $50,000 luxury coupe, that should be a CTS coupe, there should be an Omega coupe as well so Cadillac has a 3 coupe lineup, I think they should have at least 2 convertibles too, Mercedes is about to have 5 convertibles. 

[William Maley]

My Quote has not worked for a while either.

Smoke and at $40K it would not be any better than a Camaro so why have it? We do not need two Camaro's nor does the Camaro need Vent ports.

To do the Riv Right as it will be a lower volume car you need to get a better price. Second you add many features that cars at $55K do not offer. At this price you can add a top notch AWD package not just for winter driving but one for better performance.

In other words you will build an A6 Audi coupe at a better price with more advanced features and you can not do that for $40K very well.

ZL-1 I expect more on the Alpha or the next version of it. We already have three models and variations on the ATS on it now. I expect more added but not sure if the Crossovers will be here soon on it.

The Omega has one model now and I think they would need 3-4 on it to keep it viable. I would not be surprised to see a version replace the SS and Impala as one car at some point and a Buick AVENIR added. With the weight loss it opens the door to let them do more with this model.

Might note how they talk about the Lacrosse replacement but not the Impala and the platform is going to go away before long. I expect a shift to the larger Omega for the Impala. Just call it a hunch.

 

Well I know a refresh is due in a couple of years for the Impala which will bring a nine-speed automatic. As to when we'll see a redesign, possibly not till after 2020.

[hyperv6]

I was thinking 2019 for the change.

This is what I am looking at. The SS is going away. The Caprice is going away and the Impala will be around a couple more years. I suspect the last couple as a fleet car as the normal practice. This means we could see a replacement as early as 2018.

The RWD on an Omega would be an option to replace the RWD cars and an Impala as the Malibu has grown. The lighter weight and cost savings of not being all aluminum has give this a chance to be a Chevy should they choose.

Now there is nothing yet to point this way yet but it is a case where it could be plausible and not yet completely written off.

The key here is Police Fleet sales as they are profitable and GM really needs a new model in country to take advantage of it. Right now they are giving fleet sale away in the police segment. Also the new mid size SUV would also come into play as the Ford is very popular with police.

Also they say the new car going to Australia is not a Camaro or an Alpha. I have yet to see anyone say no Omega.

We have a lot of dots here and just need to watch to see what we need to do to connect them. GM has had many surprises of late and I expect more.

SMK I can see why you are so often disappointed.

The CTS coupe will never be $40K when the ATS is not that cheap.

The rest of all that well I can see you will again be disappointed

[smk4565]

I said a CTS coupe should be $50k.  That would be $5k more than the sedan, so you'd have to have more standard equipment than the sedan, but easy to do you just start up one trim level.

 

If the Impala is on the Omega platform, I don't think that bodes well for Cadillac to have their CT6 and CT8 which are to compete with the A8, S-class, Jaguar XJ, 7-series, Bentley, who knows shared with a Chevy Impala.   Goodbye credibility if a $100,000 Cadillac is on the same chassis as a $30,000 Chevy.   And how can the platform be that cheap to make?  If it is Mercedes/BMW good, it can't cost Chevy dollars to produce.

[balthazar]

If your chassis theory holds a drop of water, why would BMW put their flagship on the same chassis as their mid-size model's?

Get with it; buyers don't know or care anything about chassis's.

[El Kabong]

I'm not 100% on board with that... I think many customers are savvy enough to know when a chassis isn't up to snuff. If this were not so then why isn't Lincoln selling better?

The trick, IMO, is to trickle down your chassis tech from top-end stuff. This is why I'm so excited to see the next Camaro-there's no way it would have the chassis it's gonna have if Cadillac hadn't had need of it first.

[hyperv6]

The fact is the chassis are not like the old day where they just take a frame and put different springs in it.

Today they take the platform and widen it. Lengthen it use totally different suspension parts and tailor it to each model. The Camaro will be a great example as while it get the benefit of the Cadillac refinement it also will be much different than a CTS.

Audi and Bentley already share many parts with VW and no one complains or even notices. The W body engine can be had in everything from a VW to a Bugatti. While it is a different engine the fact is it is still bases on the same design and share the same architecture.

The reality is things to day are more shared than ever with all MFG and while they are shared more care is put in to make them different as in the Camaro and CTS. On the other hand if not enough care is made then you end up with a Taurus and Lincoln.

Even the mighty Benz shares a lot more than you think or give credit

[G. David Felt]

I said a CTS coupe should be $50k.  That would be $5k more than the sedan, so you'd have to have more standard equipment than the sedan, but easy to do you just start up one trim level.

 

If the Impala is on the Omega platform, I don't think that bodes well for Cadillac to have their CT6 and CT8 which are to compete with the A8, S-class, Jaguar XJ, 7-series, Bentley, who knows shared with a Chevy Impala.   Goodbye credibility if a $100,000 Cadillac is on the same chassis as a $30,000 Chevy.   And how can the platform be that cheap to make?  If it is Mercedes/BMW good, it can't cost Chevy dollars to produce.

So if your argument is to hold water then how do you justify that MB was platform sharing with Chrysler, Jeep and Dodge when they owned them. That would mean that MB cars were $h! since they used the same platform on much cheaper auto's and 99.9999% of people DO NOT know that or car other than auto enthusiast such as our self debating this here. 

 

This seems to be more of the Goal Line Moving you have stated in the past to justify MB and bash Cadillac.

[smk4565]

What platforms did Mercedes and Chrysler directly share?  The only one was the Crossfire was built on the existing SLK platform and used the same powertrain as the SLK and was made in Germany also.  The Chrysler 300 and Grand Cherokee platforms were made based off existing (in 2004) Mercedes platforms, but Mercedes has since moved on, and the 300 and Grand Cherokee still used that old Daimler tech from the early 2000s, and those are their 2 best vehicles.

 

I still think there is no way the Impala ends up on Omega, they want the Impala as an inexpensive large car, and need it to be, because the LaCrosse has to be more than the Impala, and the XTS will be dead, but the Cadillacs have to be more than the Buicks.  So you can't throw a $40,000 base model Impala out there, and a $60,000 Impala SS.  A car like that won't sell, and the 100,000 or so Impala sales per year will go buy a Taurus or Accord or something.  Plus you don't want a Cadillac CT8 sharing a platform with an Impala.  See Lincoln and Acura as to why that doesn't work.

[El Kabong]

The fact is the chassis are not like the old day where they just take a frame and put different springs in it.Today they take the platform and widen it. Lengthen it use totally different suspension parts and tailor it to each model. The Camaro will be a great example as while it get the benefit of the Cadillac refinement it also will be much different than a CTS.Audi and Bentley already share many parts with VW and no one complains or even notices. The W body engine can be had in everything from a VW to a Bugatti. While it is a different engine the fact is it is still bases on the same design and share the same architecture.The reality is things to day are more shared than ever with all MFG and while they are shared more care is put in to make them different as in the Camaro and CTS. On the other hand if not enough care is made then you end up with a Taurus and Lincoln.Even the mighty Benz shares a lot more than you think or give credit

Definitely so. The trick is to use the economics of scale to make your Camaro from a Cadillac, as opposed to making your Continental from a Fusion.

[Drew Dowdell]

The issues Lincoln has, has little to do with the chassis and everything to do with all of the other stuff....

 

1. Engines

2. Materials used

3. Build quality

4. Infotainment system (worst of all the systems I've experienced)

 

They all need to be improved before the chassis is even worried about.

[hyperv6]

Lincoln and Fords issue is the platforms are not as flexible or as new as the GM platforms. Ford has tried to do it all with one major large platform. This is why the Lincolns really look like a Ford tall and boxy. Also the same platform was used for the SUV/CUV models and again they hold a similar look.

 

Their engines are good for Ford but they need to offer more HP some kind of special tune for Lincoln. They should hold more power and more refinement.

 

Materials I expect will improve with their new effort.

 

The issues at Lincoln are similar to what Cadillac experienced in the past with their platform sharing. Same with the engines as while they did have a N star with their own tune it still was shared. You can get away with this in low end luxury but not if you want to move up. GM finally got the message from Johan and have responded. I would have loved to have been in that meeting as he must have really laid into them.

Ford if they want to maximize Lincoln they really need to go all in as Cadillac. No more shared engines. Platforms must be more flexible and must not even hint of a similar Ford model.

They need to take materials especially the interior to where the CT6 is now.

 

The SUV models must be more than a upgraded Explorer or Edge.

If Ford does not do this they will be leaving money on the table and not much better off than they are now. The internal fighting over cutting them will come back and be very distracting to the point it could make them fail. This is an easy money segment as it is not relied on volume as much as profits. This is a needed area as the value segment is thought to make money in and with the new trucks and added cost to make them the profits will be thinner and the rebates will really hurt when and not if they come.

 

GM committed to Cadillac as they feel it will help support the profits that they may nor realize from the trucks moving forward. They know they can not rely on trucks for ever. The CUV models have come into play and will help as they are more profitable than sedans but they too will have their limits as regulations get tougher.

 

I believe GM is in a good place now as things are just now starting to come together with much more yet to come. With the recent investment in technology and R&D this should pay off in the coming ten years.

 

A company that invest in its futureis wise and a company that does not invest in their future is doomed.

This is why I see lots of issues at Chrysler and Dodge as the investment is slow and not very well executed. Refreshes when they really need to invest in new platforms today not for 2-4 years from now. What money they are making is not coming back to them and going to the Euro operations. Chrysler and Dodge is Sergio's greatest assets to making the company live yet he treats them as a secondary priority. Alfa get the attention but yet has no real established market and unlikely to make it's needed goal of 400,000 units by 2018.

Yet he has set the 300's future from Lincoln to challenging the Impala.

Edited July 30, 2015 by hyperv6

[smk4565]

Lincoln is dead, Ford just doesn't know it yet.  The Navigator sales have slumped big time, when the BMW X7 comes, sales will probably drop even more.  Then there are the Jaguar and Maserati SUVs, maybe some people will buy those too.  They'll overprice the Continental, it will probably tank, and another 5 years of re-bodying Fords isn't going to get them anywhere.  Lincoln's future is probably in the livery market.

 

I am not so convinced Johan is the savior, he did nothing for Infiniti but re-name the cars and destroy the equity the G37 had built.  Infiniti is mess now.  Plus he is a marketing guy, and the weakest part about Cadillac is the marketing.  They make a good handling car, yet no one buys it.

[oldshurst442]

Lincoln is dead, Ford just doesn't know it yet.  The Navigator sales have slumped big time, when the BMW X7 comes, sales will probably drop even more.  Then there are the Jaguar and Maserati SUVs, maybe some people will buy those too.  They'll overprice the Continental, it will probably tank, and another 5 years of re-bodying Fords isn't going to get them anywhere.  Lincoln's future is probably in the livery market.

 

I am not so convinced Johan is the savior, he did nothing for Infiniti but re-name the cars and destroy the equity the G37 had built.  Infiniti is mess now.  Plus he is a marketing guy, and the weakest part about Cadillac is the marketing.  They make a good handling car, yet no one buys it.

That is because Infinity was fighting him every step of the way...

They hired him for his direction, yet they did not let him guide...the CEOs wanted to run the ship...so he bailed....and he wasnt the only guy to bail on Infinity...

[balthazar]

Cadillac… they make a good handling car, yet no one buys it.

Here we go with this "no one" bull$h! again. 

[smk4565]

Well not no one, just 1/2 to 1/3 as many people as many of their competitors.

[balthazar]

Except Audi, right? Except Jaguar right?

 

- - - - -

Same old, tired, worn-out non-point : sales, sales, sales. Accountant water-cooler talk. Bean pusher fodder. Ticker-tape characters. Dusty annual report line item.

 

Who cares -as a consumer- how many OTHER people buy the car you like/buy?? What kind of self esteem-less husk of a person cares 1 iota about that?
Do you WORK in the accounting department of Daimler or General Motors?? Self-validation much? Yearn for human contact much? POINTLESS POINT MUCH?

 

- - - - - 

For the umpteenth million time, Cadillac is NOT, repeat NOT in a business mode of -above all- trying to set "BEST EVAR!" monthly records. Who the fuc wants to be in a half-dozen cluster of the same color/make/model in the morning commute? Other brands have to WHORE OUT their catalog to pump up volume; Cadillac is not under that sort of pressure.

 

Cadillac once sold 380,000 units in the U.S., when they owned the bulk of U.S. lux market. The Division has no pretenses of even thinking about trying to get back to that.

Cost prohibitive, much greater competition, and the flabby-ing of the lux market pushing all sorts of downmarket ($29K mercedes!!) precludes it. Fine- all the better to focus on PRODUCT, not sales.

 

- - - - -

You HAVE to drop this same old, boring, tired, repetitive non-point focus on sales! It's numbing in it's single-mindedness.

Edited July 30, 2015 by balthazar

[El Kabong]

Also, it's no longer necessary to make a solid business case. See also: '16 Camaro.

[ponchoman49]

The LaCrosse had better be available with a V6 in LGX 3.6 form or sales might be soft. The new 3.6 will probably get the same mileage as the current 2 liter turbo in the Regal/Malibu so there is no excuse not to offer it in this larger sized car. And speaking of the Regal the 2016 base 160 HP Malibu engine will be a joke in a more expensive car like the Regal. It should be starting out with at least a minimum with the 200 Hp 1.6T.