Poor Li'l Cimarron

[axlon]

Looking at this comparison report with the BMW 325e and the Mercedes 190E, the little Caddy comes out not too bad. Even 30 years ago the German car buyer would never have considered a Caddy, regardless of how good it was. Originally conceived as a BMW 320i & Audi 4000 import fighter, on basic specs Cadillac seemed to be in the ballpark, or were they?

 

 

Popular Science Aug 1985 Page 1

 

Popular Science Aug 1985 page 2

 

Popular Science Aug 1985 page 3

 

 

Bimmer

 

 

[Cmicasa the Great]

LMFAO at what I circled.. especially considering the commentary that seems opposite in the ATS by reviewers. Interesting that the Caddy literally scored damn high for the a car that is often labeled as the reason for current Cadillac issues in terms of being in the same class as the Germans.

 

 

 

Bottom line is that had Smith and not screwed the Cimmaron up in the beggining (1981) and differentiated it more in styling from  Cavalier, ironically as the did with the Firenza.. they may have save single-handidly caused an Import vs Domestics Butterfly effect that would have rendered all of my perception posts from the last 11 years moot

 

[balthazar]

I have a C&D comparison that had the same results: very comparable.

 

I think more than the actual product itself (because the Germans siblings were crapboxes, also) was the disparity between the Cimarron & the rest of the Cadillac line.

 

LOL- BMW is STILL using the same body shell conceptually! 

Edited July 3, 2015 by balthazar

[smk4565]

The Cimarron was a Cavalier with a 90 hp engine before they got the V6 in there.  Popular Mechanics got this one right, the 190E was the best of that bunch.

[Cmicasa the Great]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ U see what U want to see.. it was draw.. with the Cadillac winning with one of the reviewers and the 190e winning in another. 

 

If U ever get a chance... Root for the Home team.. its where U live.. and the Germans could care less about U

 

[smk4565]

I actually just read the first pick, and didn't realize they had 2 winners.  But considering the Cadillac only had a pick because it was $10,000 cheaper isn't saying a lot.  They could have compared the Cimarron to the Cavalier and said the Cavalier was half the price therefor a better sports/luxury car than the Cimarron.  The 190E spawned the Cosworth, that was a great late 80s sports sedan.  The Cimarron was just rebadged GM garbage.

[Intrepidation]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ U see what U want to see.. it was draw.. with the Cadillac winning with one of the reviewers and the 190e winning in another. 

 

If U ever get a chance... Root for the Home team.. its where U live.. and the Germans could care less about U

 

 

 

Because a multi-billion dollar corporation cares about you. The home team, bringing you such All-American staples as the Mexican built Sonic and Journey.

 

Worth noting that ZEE GERMANS have factories in the good old US of A. It's not black and white.

[oldshurst442]

People, people, people...

 

We are arguing about cars that existed 30 years ago...

The Cimarron...it was a colossal mistake.

Not that the car itself was bad...because the J Platform was really not as bad as people made it out to be...but the execution was horrid...

 

Now..how many wished that Cadillac would have badge engineered these two instead of the sedan?

 

[balthazar]

I really did think this was by far the most refined & upscale stylistically of the three, and actually it's still pretty nice looking :

 

That said, I hated Cadillac being in this segment. Maybe that's why I still believe a "sub-ATS" is still wrong for Cadillac.

[hyperv6]

The truth is all three of these cars were no where near as good as we though back then. The Cadillacs biggest flaw was it was not removed from the Chevy DNA enough. GM simply though adding some Leather and a little more chrome is what made up a Cadillac. This is why so many Cadillac's of this era were just never right. They were underfunded for what they were trying to accomplish and too many parts bin parts used in the car to hold cost down. This was the old GM culture that close enough was good enough.

 

The BMW as they aged became a maintenance nightmare. The Benz was a car that never had any real personality. We even had one come in at work with the Cosworth engine and was a limited edition to qualify for racing and it was nothing to write home about.

 

The real issues in this segment is these cars as they age are like disposable lighters and once used up not worth the cost to repair them.

Now as for sub ATS today it is hard to compare this to back then. The market has changed as well as the global economy. You really need to take all the changes into perspective and find that there is a more growing need for smaller vs. larger cars I hate to say. You need both but the smaller market is growing faster as cars get more expensive and customers down size their budgets.

That  401K is not going as far as it used to.

[balthazar]

Regardless of which segment is 'growing fastest', it is not Cadillac's mission to follow every trend. Mercedes & BMW are mainstream brands, Cadillac has no such pressure to follow. BMW & MB HAVE to try to be 'everything to everyone' (actually; they don't in any way except to feed greed, but that's another discussion), Cadillac is luckily part of a bigger corporate unit that individually covers all segments in total. If that self-restricted marketing plan reduces revenue, so be it. It's not about 'then vs. now', it's about defining your mission and sticking to it.

A 'sub-ATS' will be, without question, a net negative. I just hope Cadillac planners see it clearly.

[oldshurst442]

I wouldnt even call it self-restricted.

Cadillac cars need not be in every drive-way.

First of all...that cheapens an image, especially if Cadillac chases niches that at premium levels. A sub-ATS vehicle...unless sold at $80 000, is a premium level car. Cadillac needs to be at top tier 1...you know...Rolls Royce territory.

 

Like Balthazar said, Cadillac is part of the GM umbrella where Buick fills those shoes quite nicely.

M-B has the curse to be everything to everybody

BMW chooses this route also.

They both have realized this curse....that is why M-B started the Smart brand...and that is why BMW bought Mini and are trying to expand the Mini brand so they dont have to dilute the BMW too much...

But...some choices they make...with BMW and the 5 Series GT and M-B with the B series and CLA...is just pure greed...worse than what Cadillac has been accused of with the Cimarron...

[Cmicasa the Great]

I actually just read the first pick, and didn't realize they had 2 winners.  But considering the Cadillac only had a pick because it was $10,000 cheaper isn't saying a lot.  They could have compared the Cimarron to the Cavalier and said the Cavalier was half the price therefor a better sports/luxury car than the Cimarron.  The 190E spawned the Cosworth, that was a great late 80s sports sedan.  The Cimarron was just rebadged GM garbage.

 

 

 

U really only read the first pick.. and not the in notes on each car. The performance also gave Cadillac honorable mentions. 

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ U see what U want to see.. it was draw.. with the Cadillac winning with one of the reviewers and the 190e winning in another. 

 

If U ever get a chance... Root for the Home team.. its where U live.. and the Germans could care less about U

 

 

 

Because a multi-billion dollar corporation cares about you. The home team, bringing you such All-American staples as the Mexican built Sonic and Journey.

 

Worth noting that ZEE GERMANS have factories in the good old US of A. It's not black and white.

 

 

 

The Sonic for American consumption is actually built in the USA. Michigan in fact. The Journey??? Eff I care what Dodge does?? Its foreign. 

[Cmicasa the Great]

Regardless of which segment is 'growing fastest', it is not Cadillac's mission to follow every trend. Mercedes & BMW are mainstream brands, Cadillac has no such pressure to follow. BMW & MB HAVE to try to be 'everything to everyone' (actually; they don't in any way except to feed greed, but that's another discussion), Cadillac is luckily part of a bigger corporate unit that individually covers all segments in total. If that self-restricted marketing plan reduces revenue, so be it. It's not about 'then vs. now', it's about defining your mission and sticking to it.

A 'sub-ATS' will be, without question, a net negative. I just hope Cadillac planners see it clearly.

 

I agree with this whole-heartedly.  Buick and Chevy are for handling these segments. If anything I think that Cadillac, if they went the route of a sub-ATS, it should be sub at all.. but more properly aligned to handle a niche. Why Audi, with the A3, went the same route is crazy to me. Its a real possibility that A4 sales have been siphoned to A3. 

[daves87rs]

Still wondering if Caddy needs a sub ATS model.

 

 

Thinking the little CUV should be enough.......

[balthazar]

Going to go on record here on the above.

The Buick Encore is tremendously tiny. And it's here. There is NO NEED for an Encore-sized Cadillac CUV. I have zero issue with one between the XT5 and the Escalade, but below the XT5; no.

[hyperv6]

As the economy remains stagnate and cars continue to get expensive these smaller cars will be in play. Also not so much here but in Europe as gas prices and the green party takes more control. It is a totally different market there too.

 

They can do this but it has to be done right and not just convert a Malibu.

 

The CUV will take the bulk of this too.

[regfootball]

love this thread!

[smk4565]

XT5 is probably bigger than a BMW X5.  It is just that Cadillac can't get German money so they have to sell a mid-size SUV for $35k, thus no room for a compact SUV below it.  There should be an Alpha based crossover the size of the ATS for $37k (2.0T base engine) which would make it $750 more than the ATS 2.0T sedan.  The XT5 should be $46k out of the gate, if it sells great, if not, then it needs to be RWD with some performance credentials.  There would still be room for a 3 row crossover at $60k, but then you also risk stealing Escalade sales, because people that want a 3 row Cadilllac now have a cheaper option.

[balthazar]

It is just that Cadillac can't get German money…

You've read this here before, you chose to ignore it because it doesn't fit your agenda.

Earlier today alone I corrected you that the A6 starts cheaper than the CTS.

Cadillac as a brand earns a higher brand ATP than BMW.

Cadillac CAN get "german money" and does.

 

Above post spouts yet another ignorant statement. People don't buy an Escalade to transport 7 people, they buy it because it's an Escalade; an icon.

Having a smaller SUV won't take away from it's sales but add to them.

[oldshurst442]

 

It is just that Cadillac can't get German money…

You've read this here before, you chose to ignore it because it doesn't fit your agenda.

Earlier today alone I corrected you that the A6 starts cheaper than the CTS.

Cadillac as a brand earns a higher brand ATP than BMW.

Cadillac CAN get "german money" and does.

 

Above post spouts yet another ignorant statement. People don't buy an Escalade to transport 7 people, they buy it because it's an Escalade; an icon.

Having a smaller SUV won't take away from it's sales but add to them.

 

Exactly...on the BMW thread...he cant understand why the 5/6 Series is losing sales and the X5/X6 is gaining sales...

 

its all about the image...

The 5/6 Series had the image...now its the X5/X6 that has the "it" factor...and BMW is the only one to blame for that...

 

And thus why Cadillac will shoot itslef in the foot if it decides to build a car or crossover smaller than the ATS and XT5 for crossovers.

 

Cadillac has 1 image to adhere to...and that is to be big, brash and arrogant.

 

PS: When Cadillac establishes itself on top...it will be 100% fully at the top of the heap with ALL cars being top level...there wont be any econobox bread and butter vehicles like a B Class M-B or FWD 2 Series Bimmers...

 

What does that say for the future of BMW as a top luxury car maker?

What that tells me is that they already have built themselves their own flop like a Cimarron in the Late 1990s early 2000s BMW 318ti...and now they are on their way in making their own Version of crappy FWD STS and DTS/Deville cars....first the 2 Series...and later bigger vehicles as people will stop viewing BMW as pure enthusiast enjoyment but as nice leather appointed cars...and the SAVs are contributing to that...X1 and X3 especially...

Edited July 5, 2015 by oldshurst442

[Cmicasa the Great]

 

It is just that Cadillac can't get German money…

You've read this here before, you chose to ignore it because it doesn't fit your agenda.

Earlier today alone I corrected you that the A6 starts cheaper than the CTS.

Cadillac as a brand earns a higher brand ATP than BMW.

Cadillac CAN get "german money" and does.

 

Above post spouts yet another ignorant statement. People don't buy an Escalade to transport 7 people, they buy it because it's an Escalade; an icon.

Having a smaller SUV won't take away from it's sales but add to them.

 

 

 

 

I think that what he is attempting to do is put down Cadillac as well. I will say that Cadillac does get "German Money" when Cadillac comes at a segment with an established criteria. The ELR was a glaring example of what I'm talking about. As "shiny" as that car is, it was never firmly established WHY one was expected to spend almost 2X the price of the Volt on one. Fact is that the ELR, a gorgeous car, sumptuous interior, magnificent technology, was never explained to any mass market as to what it was even in the "Poolside" commercial. In fact... the Poolside commercial should have been used for the Escalade, or better yet... saved for the CT6. The ELR??? No sunroof. Slow. A two seater, despite the seats in the rear. A compact in a segment that has no compacts like it without them being . sports cars and having sports car attributions (speedy, open top, fun) 

 

That being said.. as great as the Alphas are, they are not what people expect from Cadillac still after 10 years of being on the Sporting course that they have been. While it is perfectly fine to beat BMW in terms of driving dynamics, they should be stating that their actual TARGET is Benz. I think people are confused. I think that if Caddy had a unified front of product and marketing we would not be having these countless discussions about their numbers being low. 

 

Let me be the first to say it so Smk can read.. get it in his head, and shut the *** about for all time; CADILLAC is LUXURY ON PAR WITH BMW, BENZ, AND AUDI, just selling with a Jaguar limited line-up and no marketing. No one I kno, wealthy or not, has yet to tell me that they didn't consider Cadillac luxury. Many have told me that Cadillac simply did not have all of the types of vehicles they were looking to buy when they went onto the showroom floor. With every year we see Cadillac pushing forward with new product that will hopefully fix this issue. 

[smk4565]

Maybe I should have said, outside of the Escalade, Cadillac can't get German money.  The XT5 is their mid-size crossver, most companies price their crossover higher than a sedan of similar size.  If a CTS (or CT5) is $45k base, then an XT5 should be $49k base.  This allows you to sell a $37k XT3 and maybe slot in an XT6 around $60k before you get to the XT8, errr Escalade.  But because they'll never get $49k base for an XT5, they'll price it at like $39k, so the XT3 then has to be about $32k, and now Cadillac is stepping on GMC Denalis and Buick.

 

The BMW X5 starts at $53k, I am guessing the XT5 starts no where near that.

 

Here is where Cadillac is not on par, and it is in vehicle selection and high end vehicles.  Mercedes has 16 models with base price above $100,000.  BMW (not counting Alpina) and Audi each have 5 vehicles over $100,000.  Cadillac has nothing in the $100-200,000 range.