Ram News: Ram 3500 Heavy Duty Now Boasts 900 Pound-Feet From Its Diesel Engine

[William Maley]

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If you thought the heavy-duty wars were done and over with, you thought wrong. Ram announced today that the 3500 Heavy Duty - a model with best-in-class tow ratings of 30,000 lbs when equipped with the 6.7L inline-six Cummins diesel engine - has upped the ante once again. The inline-six for the 2016 model year will now produce 385 horsepower and 900 pound-feet of torque. That's an increase of 35 pound-feet when compared to last-year's model.

 

The increase in power also means increase in tow ratings - 31,210 pounds according to the SAE's J2807 certification process. To deal with the increase in tow weight, Ram beefed up the rear axle ring gear hardware from 12 to 16 bolts.

 

"Ram maintains leadership in all three pickup segments offering best-in-class fuel efficiency, best-in-class towing, best-in-class power and best-in-class payload," said Bob Hegbloom, President and CEO — Ram Truck Brand, FCA US. "Ram continues to break records in the most important consumer-driven titles of the pickup truck market and we’re not slowing down.”

 

The Ram 2500 Heavy Duty also sees a minor increase in max tow weight from 17,970 to 17.980 pounds.

 

Ram says the updated heavy duty trucks will be at dealers starting in the forth quarter of this year with prices of $32,680 for the 2500 and $33,185 for the 3500 - includes a $1,195 destination charge.

 

Source: Ram Trucks

 

Press Release is on Page 2

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2016 Ram Heavy Duty Widens its Leadership Gap With a Triple-decker Presence: Best-in-class Power, Towing Capacity and Payload Capacity

• 2016 Cummins 6.7-liter calibration hits a best-in-class 900 lb.-ft. of torque. The most torque ever offered in a mass-production vehicle
• 2016 Ram 3500 crushes the competition with up to 31,210 pounds of SAE J2807-spec. towing capacity, beating the closest competitor by more than two tons
• 2016 Ram 2500 holds best-in-class ¾-ton towing title with 17,980 pounds of capacity
• Ram 3500 maintains best-in-class payload of 7,390 pounds with 6.4-liter HEMI® V-8
• Ram 3500 raises its best-in-class Gross Combined Weight Rating (GCWR) to 39,100 pounds
• Ram maintains credibility and customer confidence as the only automaker to align with SAE J2807 towing standard across its entire pickup truck line
• Fuel economy is top of mind for Ram 1500 customers and the exclusive 3.0-liter EcoDiesel V-6 engine continues to crush the competition with an amazing 29 miles per gallon (mpg)
• The first 2016 Ram Heavy Duty trucks begin rolling off the factory line third quarter of 2015
• Unsurpassed powertrain warranty – five years/60,000 miles on gas engines and five years/100,000 miles on diesel engines
  

June 22, 2015 , Auburn Hills, Mich. - Ram continues as "King of the Hill" in the heavy-duty battleground with the introduction of the 2016 model year Ram 2500 and 3500 Heavy Duty pickups. The capability leaders further build on a list of best-in-class claims.
Additionally, for two years running, the Ram 1500 leads pickup truck fuel economy with the exclusive 3.0-liter EcoDiesel V-6 engine, delivering 240 horsepower, 420 lb.-ft. of torque and 29 miles per gallon (mpg).
"Ram maintains leadership in all three pickup segments offering best-in-class fuel efficiency, best-in-class towing, best-in-class power and best-in-class payload," said Bob Hegbloom, President and CEO — Ram Truck Brand, FCA US. "Ram continues to break records in the most important consumer-driven titles of the pickup truck market and we're not slowing down."
Ram Engineering and Cummins developed a new, hard-hitting fuel delivery and turbo boost calibration for the 6.7-liter I-6 diesel that produces an additional 35 lb.-ft. of torque. This improvement raises the bar from Ram's current title at 865 lb.-ft. of torque to 900 lb.-ft. of torque — a number never achieved in a mass-produced vehicle.
The previous heavy-duty towing title also belongs to the Ram 3500 at 30,000 pounds. The 2016 Ram 3500 brings that stat to 31,210 pounds, further distancing the closest rival by more than two tons. To handle the increased towing capacity, Ram engineers beefed up the rear axle ring gear hardware from 12 to 16 bolts on all trucks equipped with the 11.8-inch axle. The additional hardened bolts and stronger material are used in the differential case to assure long-term durability.
The most payload available in a pickup is 7,390 pounds for a 6.4-liter-equipped Ram 3500 model, more than 3.5 tons.
The 2016 Ram 2500 also continues its ¾-ton towing leadership with a dominating 17,980 pounds of capacity.
Ram is the only automaker to back its entire pickup truck line and towing claims with SAE J2807 testing criteria.
"Ram has bookended its innovation leadership in the pickup segments and thoughtfully engineered better trucks, including our Ram 1500 with real-world fuel economy approaching 30 mpg and the Ram 3500 with a mind-boggling 31,210 pounds of towing capacity, even on the hottest day," said Mike Cairns, Director— Ram Truck Engineering, FCA US. "Our 2016 Ram Trucks own pertinent, functional titles while delivering award-winning interiors and exclusive features that entice customers."
Pricing
2016 Ram 2500 - $31,4852016 Ram 3500 - $31,990
NOTE: Pricing does not include $1,195 destination

View full article

[balthazar]

DODGE certainly has not been asleep at the switch on the Ram over the last decade.

[Drew Dowdell]

$33k for a truck with that type of capability and power is actually really good for this day and age. 

 

Edit: Doh! I was fooled!  That's the price for the gasser.  The coal burner is about a $9k upcharge. 

[El Kabong]

Even at 41 large this is an insanely capable machine. That's nearly as much twist as a freakin' Bugatti Veyron!

[Susimi]

Dodge impress me again and give me more reason for liking the RAM. That thing will be a beast!

[TAF]

They upgraded the fuel system with something very similar to FASS and AIRDOG. Smart move.

[Stew]

Pretty sweet. 

[cletus8269]

its impressive to say the least, but what raises my eyebrow is how well does it control a 31k pound load? the opposite of towing is stopping and i feel there are going to be a lot of arrogant owners showing off with jackknifed trucks the further up these ratings go.

[ccap41]

So, I'm trying to build one online(I know 2015 model) and I can't figure how to actually get the max towing with the dually. Basically, I can't find the dually option. I assume that is the option that maximizes towing capacity, right?

..jeez..I found it.. lol

 

Well is the new truck is like the outgoing model the dually and diesel add $12,500 to the base price.

8300 - Engine

3000 - Trans

1200 - Dual rear wheels

Edited June 24, 2015 by ccap41

[hyperv6]

These towing capacities are such folly anymore. All the trucks out there are more capable than most will ever see so I really don't by the hype anymore.

The regulations are only going to get worse so I hope the price does not go higher and the performance down.

As for Ram things at Chrysler is mostly in a mode where they are going for any trick they can. 700 HP engines in cars that need replaced worse. Soon I expect we will see the trucks not updates as soon as they need due to lack of money and they will wither with even more rebates and lower profits.

The best hope for Ram and Jeep right now it they are sold off to a caring parent company with money. I know VW would love to have both.

Most people really have no idea how bad things are at FCM. The Sergio merger talks in public are one of the most alarming pleas of desperation I have seen from a automakers leader.

 

I think the real trick moving forward on the trucks is making them more affordable with a Diesel. They have enough Torque now to do about anything.

[TAF]

These towing capacities are such folly anymore. All the trucks out there are more capable than most will ever see so I really don't by the hype anymore.

The regulations are only going to get worse so I hope the price does not go higher and the performance down.

As for Ram things at Chrysler is mostly in a mode where they are going for any trick they can. 700 HP engines in cars that need replaced worse. Soon I expect we will see the trucks not updates as soon as they need due to lack of money and they will wither with even more rebates and lower profits.

The best hope for Ram and Jeep right now it they are sold off to a caring parent company with money. I know VW would love to have both.

Most people really have no idea how bad things are at FCM. The Sergio merger talks in public are one of the most alarming pleas of desperation I have seen from a automakers leader.

 

I think the real trick moving forward on the trucks is making them more affordable with a Diesel. They have enough Torque now to do about anything.

Riiiight....talk to me in 5 years and I'll accept your apology.

[hyperv6]

TAF in 5 years Ram may be made by VW in Brazil.

 

Unless they get someone with deep pockets Ram and Jeep will be sold and Chrysler could very well be gone. Yes they are in that deep *$*$ right now.

 

I will stick with the 10 years several analyst have given them. All I know is Sergio better look to Peugeot for help as they are about his only option.

 

The last thing I want to see is Chrysler fail but they are in a spiral and it is not up right now.

I am not worried about an apology as while I am not a fan I will not celebrate it. This is not good for the auto industry and not good for America even if they really are not an American controlled company any longer.

[Stew]

TAF in 5 years Ram may be made by VW in Brazil.

 

Unless they get someone with deep pockets Ram and Jeep will be sold and Chrysler could very well be gone. Yes they are in that deep *$*$ right now.

 

I will stick with the 10 years several analyst have given them. All I know is Sergio better look to Peugeot for help as they are about his only option.

 

The last thing I want to see is Chrysler fail but they are in a spiral and it is not up right now.

I am not worried about an apology as while I am not a fan I will not celebrate it. This is not good for the auto industry and not good for America even if they really are not an American controlled company any longer.

You are absolutely clueless about the auto industry.............

[hyperv6]

Ok smart guy then where am I going wrong? I just love detractors who present no evidence.

 

FCA is over capacity on production and is hemorrhaging money.

Chrysler is discounting cars to sell them at rates we saw pre bail out. I know as my in-laws just got a hell of a deal on a 300 for the price of a Malibu.

Jeep is still doing well and the trucks are doing ok but should be doing better as they are hit with large rebates.

 

Fiat is a total mess and if Greece defaults it will take most of the Euro community with economically and that could finish off Fiat.

 

GM and most other large MFG want nothing to so with Sergio and he will need to find someone with volume that could help but most interested are financially not much better. It also would still not solve his over capacity issues.

 

So Stew if you feel you are so enlightened you might want to share how Fiat and Chrysler are doing so well then as I see no real up right now.
The RWD cars needed replaced  a couple years ago not updated. The 500 has not done as well as they had expected and the new cars the Dart and 200 are an improvement but neither are at the top of sales or ratings.

Add into this the quality control is really in the dumper right now with most of the cars in the top ten being from FCM. Also the repeat buyer percentage of Chrysler products last year was at 24% Only the increase in truck sales have kept them above Mitsubishi who is the worst.

 

OK where is the up side here? Please we are interested.  

Edited June 30, 2015 by hyperv6

[Drew Dowdell]

 

TAF in 5 years Ram may be made by VW in Brazil.

 

Unless they get someone with deep pockets Ram and Jeep will be sold and Chrysler could very well be gone. Yes they are in that deep *$*$ right now.

 

I will stick with the 10 years several analyst have given them. All I know is Sergio better look to Peugeot for help as they are about his only option.

 

The last thing I want to see is Chrysler fail but they are in a spiral and it is not up right now.

I am not worried about an apology as while I am not a fan I will not celebrate it. This is not good for the auto industry and not good for America even if they really are not an American controlled company any longer.

You are absolutely clueless about the auto industry.............

 

 

You've gotta be able to back up statements like that around here.

 

FCA is on shaky ground, though I don't see quite the doom that hyper does. 

[hyperv6]

Drew I have spent the last two years watching the  movements of Fiat and Chrysler and  I don't want to be filled with doom but unless everything Sergio is doing works spot on it is only going to get worse. This is not my opinion but many market analyst.

 

The market watchers are very wary.

 

The 5 goals of Sergio are such.

 

1 Grow premium brands. by 2018 75K Masurati and 400K Alfa. This is pretty ambisous and both have not made their goal for sales in any recent history.

 

2. Fiat is struggling in Europe but they will get boost to grow in the N America, Asia and Latin America.  Again out side the 500 line they have failed and the 500 is not setting the world on fire. And Sergio has pretty much admitted there is no profit in Europe.

 

3 Jeep and Ram are funding the whole deal and all that keeps Fiat afloat. Remember Ferrari is spun off now too. He needs the profits here. Jeep is Doing ok and the Renegade will be important not to fail. Discounts on the trucks are not helping and no new truck in the near future could really hurt as Ford and GM continue to upgrade to new platforms sooner.

 

4 Sergio said he needed to sell 6 Million units to break even. Now his new plans call for 7 million. note this was 2014 and now this year he is crying for a new partner as he just does not have the volume to make it with development cost and under capacity plants.

 

5 Sergio wants to do this with out wall st. Not easy for even an healthy company to say let alone on trying yet to rebuild.

 

As I said this out line was last year and most market people said it could not be funded properly. While that is TBD the fact is his cry for help indicates he is desperate. These deals are generally done in private as to not to appear desperate. Well too late.

 

Previous plans to sell 500K Alfas by 2014 failed and as well as 85K in the USA by 2014. Fiat has never lived up to the original projections in NA.

 

My fear is Sergio will bleed the Jeeps and trucks dry on rebuilding Fiat and show little love to the rest of Chrysler. Yes they got a refresh on the LX models but they needed replaced 4 years ago. Their replacments as well as many others in the FCM line have been pushed back due to lack of funds.

 

Now toss in the stagnate economy and the default of Greece and it could make a high risk venture nearly impossible.

 

Now there is always the Chinese to come in and buy or VW to part out what they want.

 

Things at Chrysler are odd as Chrysler itself is a main stream brand now. Even the 300 is not considered to compete with the likes of Lincoln or Buick anymore. They still lack a good solid small car and Dodge is all about performance and nothing else.  This transformation is still progressing and may not do much to help things.

 

Take a look at all the product and investment GM has done since the bail out and now look at Chrysler/Fiat and see what they have done. There is a big difference and in 5 years this will really show up in the show rooms.

 

I have no death wish for Chrysler but at the rate it is going they are going the same direction they were before the bail out and this time they will not get a third bail out. I would expect part to live but much of the rest will be with Plymouth.

 

The Fiat partnership was like injecting  a Viruses and it will just grow till it kills the host.

 

The media is out there with Bloomberg, WSJ, Forbes and others. Right now there is still hope but not many think the odds are in their favor.

[Drew Dowdell]

I see a good 50% of Sergio's whining as personal greed.  In the event of a merger, he stands to make a tidy sum of money. 

 

Jeep is growing like crazy and they're going to sell the snot out of the Renegade in China.  I wouldn't be surprised if they actually run into capacity constraints on that car. 

 

Ram will always be 3rd of the D3 trucks, but they can take a bigger chunk from the other D2 than they did before. As long as they keep the interior and look up to date, the hardware under the hood will be competitive enough for a good 4 years. I really have no fear from the Tundra and Titan.

 

There is the new Mini-van coming for Chrysler as well as a new Wrangler.  I disagree that the LX cars need to be replaced just yet. 

 

FCA may be "just floating" right now, but I don't see them sinking unless the Greek thing gets really bad.

[hyperv6]

Jeep is paying all the bills to keep thing alive but even with increased sales it can not do it all alone.

 

Yes Ram will sell but with the large incentives they will not deliver the money they really need out of them. They will make a profit but they will also leave a lot on the table. One thing that is helping them now is the Ford issues.

 

The Mini Van will not regain its past glory. That ship has sailed and they need more CUV models. That is where the market is at and why so many companies are scaling back on Mini Vans.

The Wrangler is not brand new and the 2017 model is reported to be delayed along with 12 other  models 1 year or more that were slated to be replaced. Toledo is debating if the plant is going to get incentives and remain in Toledo.

 

The LX models need replaced badly. They are ghastly over weight and again they leave a lot of sales on the table. The platform is based on a very old Benz model and it is showing. With a new Mustang and Camaro the Challenger is only going to decline in sales. 700 HP is only going to help to a point along with the special packages.

 

This is the problem. While Ram is selling ok low profits and not as much volume increase as needed. LX not as much volume as they could have with a lighter more modern platform. Dart another car lacking volume it should have. Chrysler while it has improved is not improving enough.

 

Chrysler was the division that was to have been the cash cow to pay for the rest of Fiat's other plans but Sergio needs volume more than he is getting. With increased competition from all sides it is going to be difficult to meet his goals. Then he has set goals for Maserati and Alfa that are almost laughable.

Toss in this all the quality issues and it is bad with the lack of repeat buyers. Even my In Laws like their new 300 that they got dirt cheap but with the issues they have had it will be the last.

 

There is a slim chance they could pull this off but as the one Wall St Analyst stated they have to get everything right and have no set backs. He just did not think that could happen. While they are not falling fast most predict it will take about ten years for them to hit crises mode.

 

I was lucky to sit down and meet with the head of the performance parts division. He really painted a picture of where the investment company left Chrysler going into to the deal with Fiat. It was bleak. Things inside were a lot worse than people realize and in time I think the truth will come out. GM had their issues but they at least were not left with little to work with in future products and programs. Chrysler was left to die and just didn't. 

 

I really would love to see Chrysler break away and join up with a better partner than Fiat. At this point Sergio and Fiat are the boat anchor that will take them down. Chrysler needs a stronger partner with money to get them where they need to be. Not someone bleeding their profits into Luxury Euro divisions that will not pay off.

Unless Sergio hits his numbers and he never has things will get ugly.

 

Jeep will live on somewhere as I expect Ram but the cars are very expendable right now and no one would want to take them on. As for the rest of Fiat they could go to hell in a hand basket for all I care.

[Stew]

Keep is doing excellent, no and s if or buts, Chrysler is showing sales increases and the 200 is far outstripping anyone's expectations.  The onl reason minivan sales are down is because the factory was down retooling for the next gen and only came back online last month.  The local dealers haven't had ANY minivans to sell for a few months.  The LX cars, Patriot, Compass, and Journey are pure profit at this point with their architecture paid of long ago and between these 3 sold nearly 25k last month.  The same is true with the LX cars.  Dart sells enough to bring in a profit, but it's sales champ status will have to wait until the next refresh.  Dodges sales were simply hurt by the loss of the Avenger and no minivans to sell.  Ram is on a roll, sales were up for all but the Cargo van last month (which is based on the minivans and started being built again BTW).  The Fiat 500 sales fine for the it is and realize a lot 9of dealers loss product because of the strike in the harbors last month.  i think the 500X could be the real success once it hits lot and they REALLY need a larger dealer base.  Alfa is shaping up nicely and if they bring what they have been and what they are showing and more like that, then we have a sales success on our hands.  Never mind that excellent new platform that is going to shared with Dodge and possibly Chrysler.   The big question is Europe where sales are hurting.  You claim to have paid attention to what has been happening, but it looks more like you are picking and choosing the bad things, ignoring the reasons, and just wanting them to fail to prove you right. 

[Drew Dowdell]

All trucks move on incentives. Ford and GM are both known for having truck incentives.   GMC is offering over $8k off certain Sierra configurations. Ford is offering $6k back on certain F-150 models.  Ram having incentives is just the nature of the business.

 

I don't expect the Mini-van to regain its past glory, but the current FCA vans have fallen too far behind and sales reflect that.  Caravan is down 49% for the year and T&C is down 44% for the year.  That is a big drop... too big.

 

The LX models are not ghastly overweight.   Chrysler 300 V6 - 4,029, Dodge Charger V6 - 3,934, Dodge Charger V8 - 4,264 - Hyundai Genesis V6 - 4,138, Chevrolet Impala V6 - 3,800, Buick Lacrosse V6 - 3,988, Chevrolet SS - 3,975 (for comparison purposes), Lincoln MKS - 4,204, Ford Taurus - 3,917, Toyota Avalon - 3,505 (however, I think Toyota took it too far, the latest Avalon doesn't isolate noise like the old one or the others in this class).   The LX cars' weight are on par for their class and in most cases, the LX cars beat the competition on fuel economy when comparing engines in the same class. I've driven all of the cars in this list extensively and only the Avalon can even match the LX V6 cars on fuel economy.   A while back one of the Buick PR people was bragging on Facebook about his LaCrosse V6 rental got him 30mpg.   If I was in an LX car, I would have to check to see if the parking brake was stuck if I got that kind of mileage, 33 - 35mpg is the norm on the highway in the LX cars... I've done it many times in many locations.

 

I agree you that the Dart has been left for dead.  They need to MCE it soon.  However, the Chrysler 200 seems to have finally gained traction. 

 

I've driven a number of the FWD vehicles with the 9-speed auto and they finally seem to have the 9-speed auto figured out, but I think they still need to work on throttle control. 

 

I feel that Sergio is FCA's biggest liability. Period.  His ego and his pet projects are what going to hurt the whole organization.  Alfa is a "nice to have" but not a necessity for paying the bills... but he'll sacrifice the entire organization to save Alfa and Fiat.

[El Kabong]

Of the Detroit Gang, Sergio is definitely the one walking the finest line as far as tolerance for screwups go. But like Drew said, product-wise they're doing pretty good right now, at least on this side of the pond. By the same token I suppose you could say that necessity is the mother of invention as far as some of their engine options. But I'm still loving my EcoDiesel and the take rate on the Hellcats is nearly as crazy as the cars themselves, so there's that.

It all boils down to Yurp. If Fiat/Alfa/Maserati can utilize good platform sharing with the North American operations and thus avoid being a financial black hole, this may yet end well.

[Stew]

All trucks move on incentives. Ford and GM are both known for having truck incentives.   GMC is offering over $8k off certain Sierra configurations. Ford is offering $6k back on certain F-150 models.  Ram having incentives is just the nature of the business.

 

I don't expect the Mini-van to regain its past glory, but the current FCA vans have fallen too far behind and sales reflect that.  Caravan is down 49% for the year and T&C is down 44% for the year.  That is a big drop... too big.

 

The LX models are not ghastly overweight.   Chrysler 300 V6 - 4,029, Dodge Charger V6 - 3,934, Dodge Charger V8 - 4,264 - Hyundai Genesis V6 - 4,138, Chevrolet Impala V6 - 3,800, Buick Lacrosse V6 - 3,988, Chevrolet SS - 3,975 (for comparison purposes), Lincoln MKS - 4,204, Ford Taurus - 3,917, Toyota Avalon - 3,505 (however, I think Toyota took it too far, the latest Avalon doesn't isolate noise like the old one or the others in this class).   The LX cars' weight are on par for their class and in most cases, the LX cars beat the competition on fuel economy when comparing engines in the same class. I've driven all of the cars in this list extensively and only the Avalon can even match the LX V6 cars on fuel economy.   A while back one of the Buick PR people was bragging on Facebook about his LaCrosse V6 rental got him 30mpg.   If I was in an LX car, I would have to check to see if the parking brake was stuck if I got that kind of mileage, 33 - 35mpg is the norm on the highway in the LX cars... I've done it many times in many locations.

 

I agree you that the Dart has been left for dead.  They need to MCE it soon.  However, the Chrysler 200 seems to have finally gained traction. 

 

I've driven a number of the FWD vehicles with the 9-speed auto and they finally seem to have the 9-speed auto figured out, but I think they still need to work on throttle control. 

 

I feel that Sergio is FCA's biggest liability. Period.  His ego and his pet projects are what going to hurt the whole organization.  Alfa is a "nice to have" but not a necessity for paying the bills... but he'll sacrifice the entire organization to save Alfa and Fiat.

on the vans, like i said, they spent a few months out of production while the factory was retooled for the next gen.  they just came back online late last month.  The local dealerships haven't had any minivans to sell for a few months now and probably will not get any for a month or so longer.   that is the single and whole reason why their sales have dropped so much.  otherwise they are still competitive with good room, nice interiors, great powertrains and features such as blue-ray and class exclusive stow and go seating.  I also like the fact they haven't went swoopy "yet" and still look like a proper van. 

[Drew Dowdell]

I see that they were out of production for a bit... but I still feel that they've fallen too far behind.  Aside from some minor visual updates, it is an 8 year old vehicle now. 

[Stew]

True, but most vehicles realistically have a 10 year lifespan.  5 years, then was is really a major refresh for the next 5.  They got a very major refresh in 11, though the exterior was more refined than all new. 

[Stew]

I just want to add my previous post to that FCA had higher retail sales last month than Ford did.

[El Kabong]

Good point. Some folks DO seem to put a bit of emphasis on fleet sales as a percentage of overall numbers. Good to know!

[hyperv6]

I really do not see enough change in the Chrysler lines that mean much outside of the Jeep line. Jeep is where the increase sales were not much else where. Their car lines are just out matched across the board. 700 HP and the highest towing ability is not going to fix it.

 

The bottom line is this. How much money are they making and how much is getting put back into their lines and not robbed for other markets. Investing in Alfa is not going to save Chrysler.

 

In the end it is going to come down to profit numbers and many say that Sergio has built a house of cards on a windy day.

 

Name one car that Chrysler or Dodge has that is class leading or better than the top 3 in the segment with more than three cars? Even the Challenger is over matched by the new Mustang and Camaro in all areas accept for a big HP number that is engine managed to a level similar to the others if you want to do something other than burn up an expensive set of tires like an idiot. Even people today really pay little attention to the halo car the Viper. Ford and GM have stole the thunder there with present and coming cars. Once Ford gets the GT and GM the mid engine the Viper will be the new Morgan of the American market.

[Stew]

I really do not see enough change in the Chrysler lines that mean much outside of the Jeep line. Jeep is where the increase sales were not much else where. Their car lines are just out matched across the board. 700 HP and the highest towing ability is not going to fix it.

 

The bottom line is this. How much money are they making and how much is getting put back into their lines and not robbed for other markets. Investing in Alfa is not going to save Chrysler.

 

In the end it is going to come down to profit numbers and many say that Sergio has built a house of cards on a windy day.

 

Name one car that Chrysler or Dodge has that is class leading or better than the top 3 in the segment with more than three cars? Even the Challenger is over matched by the new Mustang and Camaro in all areas accept for a big HP number that is engine managed to a level similar to the others if you want to do something other than burn up an expensive set of tires like an idiot. Even people today really pay little attention to the halo car the Viper. Ford and GM have stole the thunder there with present and coming cars. Once Ford gets the GT and GM the mid engine the Viper will be the new Morgan of the American market.

Here is your problem, you are seeing issues where there are none.  the Challenger for example is a fullsize 5 seat grand tourer with a real backseat.  of course the Camaro and mustang are going to outhandle it, but speed, quality, and the best interior of the 3, not to mention you are comparing that 5 seater to 4 seaters and heck, there isn't even a convertible Challenger.  Still the sales on the Challenger keep rsisng, up over 10k units YTD and nearl 7k sold last month.  And FYI, the 392 cars are quicker than the 5.0 and LS3, and the 5.7 is not as far behind as you may think, for a lower price with more content than the competition. 

As for sales, did you even look?  Last month or example Chrysler was up as much as Jeep was, the 200 is in the top 5 best selling midsize sedans which is a HUGE  feat and a HUGE deal and yes, i would say it is EASILY in the top 3 sedans out there.  The only reason Dodge was down is because they lost an entire model and the vans are just now going into production.  Fiat needs work no doubt, bu the 500X is the first one I think will actually appeal to a large number of Americans. 

Why even talk about the Viper?  It is a low production hand-built supercar.  It isn't even comparable with the GT on price alone (GT is going to be around 400k and the Zora probably not much cheaper).  To try and invalidate the Viper on engine location alone is to do the same to sports cares like the Corvette, Rear engined 911s, various front engine Ferraris, and even the Miata.  Lets at least keep it realistic.  

Profits aren't as high as they could be, mainly based on the European operations, but they ARE posting profits.

[hyperv6]

Stew this is what you are not seeing. The Challanger is a car that is old and undersold the whole time it was in production. Yes sales have increased for two reasons. One discounts on the cheaper models and sales of the Hellcat that will only last so long as there are only so many people that will buy this till the shine is off this penny. No matter how you spin it they needed a new car last year and it will be several more before they get one.

 

The new Camaro and Mustang will dominate sales and profits while Chrysler again leaves a lot of money on the table. Yes they may show a profit but they are not making the most of their profit potential at a time they really need the money. You have to look at the big picture here financially not just sales numbers and say well they are making money. Today it's about making enough money. They need to spend more than they are taking in to keep FCM alive. If not for Jeep they would really be in a fix right now.

 

200 again selling at discounts and seeing sales because of lower prices on a car they just introduced. People buy them not because they are great but because they are cheap. This is why Chrysler has a 23-24% repeat buyer status.

 

Fiat is doing better here than anywhere but it is below expectations.

 

Viper is part of the program and while GM can make money with it they are not making much with the Viper. Again more money left on the table.

 

This is the deal most financial people are looking at. Sergio to get out of his issues in Europe needs a lot of cash. To do this he has set 5 difficult steps to raise this case. Selling ungodly numbers of Alpha's and Maserati's is a key and basically taking the money from Jeep and Ram to pay for the issues elsewhere from the company. The truth is Chrysler is the strongest part of the bunch but it is need of investment and new better models but the money they are making is going to go else where. Fiat is the Anchor that is taking them down because they are already a weak swimmer.

 

The other 600 pound gorilla in the room is the quality issues and recalls. It is not going to get better soon as they are not getting the investment to fix these issues and they have fought recalls publically that does nothing to instill consumer confidence. Even if they have a legitimate issue to counter the public generally just see a large company fighting an recall.

 

The points I bring up are not just my personal observations but of the financial market watchers and auto industry analyst. There is much other from the last years looking at where this was going before Sergio started begging for a friend and even more since.

Just look at his numbers for production from the different brands and the plan is just not do able.

Also look at the cost of what it would take to fix things and if they keep discounting cars they will fall short of the amount of money needed. You can go bankrupt showing a profit and that is just where this is all going.

Hellcats and jeeps as well as they are selling can not support the rest of the deadbeat Fiat brand. Like the titanic a small hole in the right spot can doom the entire MFG.

If you look at Chrysler the trucks and jeep are of value to many MFG but the car line is nothing anyone really wants. Most that would be interested are already well established in this segment.

 

Lets be realistic here. profits are not as high as they need to be not could be. That is where this all falls apart. The future keys are the increase in sales of the Euro brands and just how much will they increase. [They will not make Sergio's number] and how long Jeep can support the rest of the family. Lets face it they will need each and every new model to max profits to keep their head above water.

 

My hope is Chrysler can escape with a better owner at some point. Fiat will in time kill them like a bad slow dieses. It will be a painful death too.

[Drew Dowdell]

Chrysler doesn't need to be class leading, just class "keeping up" and in that regard, they're doing fine.  Heck, even the Journey is still selling well.  200 sales are increasing. Durango is selling fantastic.  Jeep is going well. 

[hyperv6]

Drew I agree Chrysler is doing well in many areas but you have to look big picture here.

This is the problem Sergio needs a lot of money to save the corporation. This is a deal where Chrysler is showing a profit but the profit they need is greater than what they are making. Doing better is not going to cut it here as they need to do great.

Sergio is trying to fund the corporation on Chrysler but Chrysler is not getting full profits and not getting full benefits from their profits. They need to sell a Sh*% load of 200's and Darts with little rebate. They need to do the same with the Ram trucks. They need a smaller SUV like the Nox like 10 years ago not a minivan. They need a small SUV like the Encore not the Fiat what ever they call it.

Sergio also has to depend on selling Alfa's and Maserati's in numbers never  seen before. He has missed on past production goals and the analyst expect him to miss again. He is not going to see profits in Europe and needs to close some plants but has yet to do so.

This is all a book keeping issue and while parts of the FCA body is doing well the blood is bleeding out in other parts. Unless they remove Sergio and get someone in that is willing to make some major changes this blood will run out faster than it is being made by Jeep and any other healthy division.

I agree with you if you look at this on the surface it all looks peachy. But if you look at the books it looks like it did before 2008. You can only go on this way for so long and something has to give. Product gets delayed more and more and things get cheapened up and short cuts lead to product issues. You have noted 8 of the ten worse cars on the road for quality are FCA products. And now the government is now looking to go after them. Even my in laws new 300 has had issues already.

 

Chrysler has a lot of good plans and good people but they just are not doing all they need to make the money needed to save FCA. Jeep can not do all this alone. If they do not lose the rebates and increase sales of their cars they will put all the more pressure on jeep to keep this up.

 

Just look at all the new product GM and Ford have had just since 2008 and how little Jeep has had. This is not going to get any better either. The way Chrysler is going is like a man drowning on dry land. It can happen where profitable companies die because of corporations that bleed them dry.

[Drew Dowdell]

Drew I agree Chrysler is doing well in many areas but you have to look big picture here.

This is the problem Sergio needs a lot of money to save the corporation.

No he doesn't. He needs a lot of money to save Alfa and Fiat brands.  The problem for FCA is that to Serg, Fiat and Alfa are not able to be sacrificed for the good of the company.   Alfa should have died once there was not a replacement for the 159.  

 

During the unpleasantness after 2008, lots of people wrote that Fiat saved Chrysler.   But these days, I'm wondering if the reverse was actually true. 

[Drew Dowdell]

Dodge's smaller SUV is the Journey.  They move about 100k of them a year... about the same as the Hyundai Santa Fe and Kia Sorento individually. 

[Stew]

Drew I agree Chrysler is doing well in many areas but you have to look big picture here.

This is the problem Sergio needs a lot of money to save the corporation. This is a deal where Chrysler is showing a profit but the profit they need is greater than what they are making. Doing better is not going to cut it here as they need to do great.

Sergio is trying to fund the corporation on Chrysler but Chrysler is not getting full profits and not getting full benefits from their profits. They need to sell a Sh*% load of 200's and Darts with little rebate. They need to do the same with the Ram trucks. They need a smaller SUV like the Nox like 10 years ago not a minivan. They need a small SUV like the Encore not the Fiat what ever they call it.

Sergio also has to depend on selling Alfa's and Maserati's in numbers never  seen before. He has missed on past production goals and the analyst expect him to miss again. He is not going to see profits in Europe and needs to close some plants but has yet to do so.

This is all a book keeping issue and while parts of the FCA body is doing well the blood is bleeding out in other parts. Unless they remove Sergio and get someone in that is willing to make some major changes this blood will run out faster than it is being made by Jeep and any other healthy division.

I agree with you if you look at this on the surface it all looks peachy. But if you look at the books it looks like it did before 2008. You can only go on this way for so long and something has to give. Product gets delayed more and more and things get cheapened up and short cuts lead to product issues. You have noted 8 of the ten worse cars on the road for quality are FCA products. And now the government is now looking to go after them. Even my in laws new 300 has had issues already.

 

Chrysler has a lot of good plans and good people but they just are not doing all they need to make the money needed to save FCA. Jeep can not do all this alone. If they do not lose the rebates and increase sales of their cars they will put all the more pressure on jeep to keep this up.

 

Just look at all the new product GM and Ford have had just since 2008 and how little Jeep has had. This is not going to get any better either. The way Chrysler is going is like a man drowning on dry land. It can happen where profitable companies die because of corporations that bleed them dry.

You are seeing disparity where there is none.  for starters the challenger is a totally different car from the Camaro and Mustang so direct comparisons are pretty asinine.  Next, you obviously have not driven the Challenger, ESPECIALLY the 15+ models.  They give up nothing and perform as well, or better, than other cars that are actually they same size.  hey are actually not overweight for their size other.  Then there is the fact that the tooling for a lot of the LX cars, journey, Patriot, etc, etc were paid off long ago so guaranteed they are making big money off of those.  And you are ignoring the new product that Chrysler has had other than that.  The 200, Renegade, various Ram Vans, LX cars have had MAJOR redos, not once but twice (and before you go "but  them platform is old", the Taurus, Flex, Explorer, etc, etc are running a platform that was an older Volvo platform before it appeared on the 500/Freestyle in 2006.  Up until 14 the Impala was using the W-body platform that appeared in the 80s!!!!!  The Cruze hat we got in 11 was an old car then as it had been sold worldwide for a few years already.  You simpl refuse to see thins objectively and clearly.  Like Drew said, the sticking points are Fiat and Alfa.   Now, if the new Alfa sedan is everything it appears to be and get more from he same ilk, I will be glad the kept Alfa.  The big question mrks are if that will happen and if Fiat can bring out vehicles hat Americans will actually buy. 

[hyperv6]

Drew you are not getting it. While Chrysler needed some help to save cost as they were not in the perfect place after bail out. Fiat never saved Chrysler. In fact I really thought it was a major mistake as I never saw Fiat as the stronger partner. I did thing the sharing of new platforms and systems would save Chrysler money and bring a lot of new models faster than they have.

At this point Sergio has taken from Chrysler and has given so little back. He has taken much of the money from Jeep and Ram for his own selfish needs. 

 

A this point he will continue to do this and still not give Chrysler all they need to thrive while he expects improvements at Alfa and Maserati that are unlikely to come.

 

Read up on the 5 things Sergio wants to do at FCA and you will see if is not Chrysler friendly at a time they need attention and investment to compete.

 

1 By 2018 he wants 400,000 globally at Alfa and 75,000 at Maserati. Do you really think that will happen in 3 years? This is not the first estimates he has missed too.

 

2. The next move is to raise Fiat to 1.5 to 1.9 Million in sales and not expect sales to grow in Europe. He wants the growth mostly to come from North America. Possible but still a lot to expect in 3 years.

 

3 Grow Jeep sales to fund much of the things FCA needs to do. He wants to grow Jeep from near 1 Million Units in 2014 to 1.9 Million in 2018. He has his best shot here but it again depends on a lot of things that all have to go right.

 

4 At one time Sergio said he needed 6 million cars from FCA to break even. He then said he would sell 7 million by 2018 and not need a partner in 2014. Well here we are entering the 2016 model year and he has gone to pleading publically for a partner he said a year ago he did not need.

 

5. He wants to do all this with no interest in Wall Street. His net investment debt will be 15.3 billion in 2015 and then he expects it to shrink to 1 billion by 2018. Does that sound like a move that will pay off in the long run. It is more like a shot of heroin and coming down will make things all that much worse if you do not keep improving the needed brands. As of now he has delayed many models including ones that really could use the investment to maximize profits that he could really use.

As you can see these goals are all things key to the FCA future and only Jeep is figured in to any of it. If they In June they delayed the Ram Trucks, Wrangler, LX models 12 models in total at a time they need each and every new update on time they can get. Things like the Grand  Cherokee also a strong seller is delayed indefinitely the Grand Wagoner is now 2018. The Renegade is late with quality issues and they have a lot banked on it selling well. Dart and Journey were set for refresh in 2016 but now it is 2019-2020. This while Chevy rolls out a new line Cruze and Malibu with an already strong Fusion in the market..

 

Lets face it if you look at all the models to save FCA what ones have the best shot at saving the company? The Chrysler brands are the keys and only Jeep is getting the love with delays.

 

I am not going to say they are for sure going down but right now the plan is flawed as it depends on so much to go right from a man who in the past has failed to deliver on his own goals.

Yes The Journey sold well but Hyundai and Kia are not being pulled under buy other models and brands that can not support themselves, Underfunded pension plans they inherited and over capacity in Europe that is not being cut as it should be.

 

Drew again this is less a model thing and more an accounting thing. There are some bright spots in the Chrysler line but FCA has enough dark spots to kill and damage the whole company, I fully believe if the right person got in they could fix this mess but like GM did in the bail out they would have to make some unpopular moves. Even you said Alfa needs closed down and that would be like Killing Pontiac in popularity. You are correct in your assessment but it is not happening. Production for Fiat needs adjusted but it is not happening etc.

 

Lets face it Sergio is not looking for a forced merger with another because he just thinks it is a good thing. He has gone public with this as he is desperate as his plans of 2014 are already failing in many areas. He has delayed product in a very competitive market and that is a killer.

 

Lets face it Chevy did the new Malibu we have now because they could not leave an old model on the market. Well Chrysler left old product on the market. Chevy knew the present BU was not class leading and leaving a lot of profit on the table so they keep on with the coming BU that is everything they wished for. Less weight, better looking and refinement like we have never seen in a Bu. Ford is working hard in this fashion too as well as the Asian brands. Yet FCA is late with product and delaying more.

 

Hmm even the page I am on now here is offering a Lease for a 200 at $199 a month.. Not good for a car so new. Sales are up but are profits growing as they need to. No. More money left on the table. Most people that go bankrupt often have good jobs and income but they fail to retain it.

 

Replace Sergio with someone willing to make some major changes and you may save Chrysler if not it will be bleed to death saving the rest of Fiat.

[hyperv6]

Stew the Challanger is in the same segment as the Camaro and Mustang no matter how you spin it. It is a good car but far from class leading and still over two tons. It will sell on loyalty as it has a strong fan base but make it lighter and on a new platform you could increase sales 1/3-1/2.

The fact much of this tooling was paid off long ago is a sign that you are selling product that is long over due. The W body was a great car for GM but it was still not what GM needed or wanted. It did the job but a new and better platform if they could have afforded it would have done wonders for the GM profits. Looking back my 04 GM was a good W model but no where near class leading as the age showed. In your example look at the last W body Impala an then look at the present models of Cruze, Malibu and Impala and tell me would GM have been better off 8-10 years ago with these over the Delta and W body?

So the new Alfa is a good car? You really think he will sell 400,000 units when he already has missed previous goals. Note this goal is a needed goal not one that if missed would not inject more of a set back.

 

Look up the 5 steps Sergio has set and then look at the models he has delayed and how long he has delayed. Then look to where he wants to put the money and then consider how much his development cost are going and no one wants to play with him.  While Chrysler is making money it is not enough to meet his plans. It also is not being put back into Chrysler at the rate they need to remain competitive as others all move forward.

Big picture brother. It looks much like how GM got into trouble and Chrysler did prior to the bail out. Lets face it GM did not look too bad on the outside but all the signs were there and many of us over looked them. You can't let the bright lights of sales of some models overshadow the financial side of things and the many under performing family members that are draining the company.

If Chrysler could be removed I feel someone would work with them and turn them around. As long as Sergio is here they will continue to be drained of the blood they need.

 

Time will prove this out unless someone steps in.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

hyperV6,

reading through your concerns for FCA, I think many of them are a bit over-thought. I could counter many of them as others have attempted, but at this point, I think your mind is made up, that they are in dire straights, which I don't think is the case at all, as others mentioned.  And as drew mentioned, they don't have to lead in many, if any segments. They just have to be right there with the others. And as far as leading is concerned, define leading first. Leading in sales capacity does not make or break you.  Sure, it can give you bragging rights, and some secondary benefits, and of course more profit (potentially, as long as you are not boosting sales for cheap).  And leading by capability is more about bragging rights than it is downright sales.  Few buyers will be lured into a competitors showroom by announcement of higher metrics in vehicle ability, especially considering how few actually utilize these insane power/towing/hauling capabilities anyway.  It comes down to many factors.  At least in trucks.  

 

Time will tell, but good product will cure most ills.  I think they are on task there. Jeep is a huge success. Trucks are kicking it. Small cars are getting better. Lots of good is what I see, with only few bad.  Not exactly a bad place to be.

Edited July 6, 2015 by Wings4Life

[hyperv6]

All I can add here is stop reading the car sites and start reading the financial people's comments and story's from this year and last years and there is a lot of concern. Forbes and WSJ have had many stories on this topic as well as Wards and other industry reports. 

There is some deep concern outside the enthusiast sector and they have many valid points.

The bottom line is they may be making money but they are not making enough to solve all their issues inside FCM. Fiat is bleeding Chrysler to save themselves and slowing Chryslers progress when it should be taking an advantage of the momentum. 

Fiat is a parasite and they will bleed Chrysler dry if Sergio's plans fail. As of now the warning signs are there with numbers and goals that are unlikely to be met.

Would any one here be comfortable with Mary or Mark Fields going public trying to force a hostile merger with another company? Now stop and really think about this as is this an act of a man with everything under control? If you think so you really need to go back and restudy this.

 

It is a shame VW could not have joined Chrysler as they would have nurtured them and grown them in the right ways. Sergio is just using them to fund his own programs and not really give much back. Sure a simple restyle of the LX cars and two new models that were based on his own lacking models.

To be honest Sergio would have been better off fixing all at Chrysler and then let the sh*$ roll down hill to Fiat. Right now he is working on the wrong end as Fiat and Alfa are not going to be fixed easily.

Right now Fiat should change their name to Fias. Fix it again Sergio.

 

Who here thinks Chrysler would make more money and sell more cars with an all new LX platform that is more flexible and lighter like nearly every other RWD platform on the market? How many think delaying several Jeep models years is a good Idea?  How many think delaying the new Ram is a good idea as GM and Ford are already working on replacements that will be here soon? How many think Alfa will sell the key 400,000 units by 2018?

 

With updates to the Fusion and a new Malibu coming think it is a good idea to delay improvements to the 200? Who thinks it is a good idea to delay the Dart improvement or replacement while Ford and GM will have much newer and more competitive cars. Lets face it the two Fiat based model are often summed up with a Much better than the car it replaced  but not in the top of the segment.

 

For the most part they are living on publicity from the Hellcat that while impressive will not sell in numbers to make that much of a difference. Same on the truck towing as cool numbers but they are mostly gaining market share on discounts and that leads to lower realized profits.

 

Good product is only part of the requirements to being successful. Chrysler can make the best cars in the market but if Fiat continues to invest in themselves and not Chrysler they will wither on the vine. Times are not like they used to be and you can get away with selling a W body for 20 years.

I fully agree things are improving at Chrysler but not enough to sustain their profits that are being drained. The financial people see it and after reading their reports I fully understand their concern and why Sergio is acting so desperate.

 

At GM while things are down at Cadillac and Buick. GM is investing in these brands large sums. They have committed what was it 15 Billion just to the Warren test track and how many billions to the tech center. Few models are getting delayed and the partnerships Sergio has chased are being done by GM with Ford and other brands on non forced levels

 

It is not so much what is going on inside Chrysler that worries me but the fact that the funding that should be going in will go elsewhere in FCA and that is not good at this time.

 

I am serious go to the financial reports on FCM and Sergio's plans and just see what is going on or not going on in some cases behind the models.

Funny how all the Chrysler incentives are popping up here while we debate.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

I don't know, they have problems to work through, like pretty much every other company that found itself in a merger.  I just don't see anything that is cringe worthy and plenty to be excited about.  Again, not a bad place to be.  Financials will follow suit, in due time.

[hyperv6]

You really are not looking at the big picture here.

 

So you think they will sell 400,000 Alfa's a year in 2018? They sold 68K last year. Another 338,000 should be a breeze. LOL!

 

Increasing Jeep sales globally is one thing Alfa is another and just as key to this big plan. Even 75K Maserati's are a stretch. They have increase but that price is tough and few will be repeat buyers after owning one. The maintenance in a BMW looks like a cinch over the Maserati. Yes even for people with money it can be pricey.

 

As for mergers most were agreed too or partnerships done in cooperation that was beneficial to both parties. FCA and who ever is pure and simple Cooperate rape. We are not talking a VW merger here. Sergio is a serial Corporate rapist. He can't get a date so he will take what he wants if he can. The GM deal proved to be much larger than he could tackle and even the money financial people would not bite on that one. Sergio really miscalculated on that one.

[Drew Dowdell]

You really are not looking at the big picture here.

 

So you think they will sell 400,000 Alfa's a year in 2018? They sold 68K last year. Another 338,000 should be a breeze. LOL!

 

Increasing Jeep sales globally is one thing Alfa is another and just as key to this big plan. Even 75K Maserati's are a stretch. They have increase but that price is tough and few will be repeat buyers after owning one. The maintenance in a BMW looks like a cinch over the Maserati. Yes even for people with money it can be pricey.

 

As for mergers most were agreed too or partnerships done in cooperation that was beneficial to both parties. FCA and who ever is pure and simple Cooperate rape. We are not talking a VW merger here. Sergio is a serial Corporate rapist. He can't get a date so he will take what he wants if he can. The GM deal proved to be much larger than he could tackle and even the money financial people would not bite on that one. Sergio really miscalculated on that one.

 

The problem for Sergio is that you don't just "wish" platforms and capacity into existence.  Platforms aren't an app you can download.  I am intrigued about the new Giulia platform, where it comes from and where it is going.   Sergio figures that Alfa is going to be a BMW competitor, but with what models?  He's not going to do it by sharing the Dart platform... he might get away with an Alfa suv on the Jeep GC platform, but that would be a stretch.   So either this new Giulia platform can be sized down to 2-series sized and sized up to 6-series sized, or Sergio is dreaming. 

[Stew]

hyper, there have been a LOT of EXCELLENT rebuttals to your overstated negativity.  Yes, there are issues to work out, but who doesn't have them?  And no, I don't think they will reach ever goal in the 5 year plan, but IMHO hat was just some chest puffing for the investors.    As for the Challenger, it is so different from he Mustang and Camaro.  And heck, i can give you reasons why the Challenger is better than the Mustang and Camaro anyways.....  and why the Mustang is better than the Camaro and Challenger........  and reasons why the Camaro is better than the Mustang and Challenger.  you want to narrow everything down to a very thin line when that is hardly the case. 

[hyperv6]

Drew that is just it he is not investing in many new platforms and just re hashing older Lancia platforms. GM and Ford has replaced almost their entire line ups and yet Chrysler is getting only hand me downs and refreshes.

 

Right now he can not afford much and is doing a lot with very little. His goals are very over stated and likely to fail again.

 

As I told you in the PM you nor I can prove a thing today but by 2018 We should know who is right as we should have a good feel of where this is going.

Like I told you  that you hit it on the head that Fiat was using Chrysler to bail them out not the reverse. That was pretty clear from the start as Fiat has been in very bad shape for a long time.

[hyperv6]

Stew there is one simple reason here that the Camaro and Mustang are better cars in this particular case. They make a Sh*t load of more money as they sell a Sh*t load of more cars. You can argue all the nuances here but the fact in this case is Chrysler and Fiat need money and that Ford and Chevy leave nothing on the table as where Chrysler leaves a lot on the table. The ironic thing is they have an even more greater need for the money.

This is all about money not about model specifics. Sergio has many great needs and so very little money. He has built a plan that many in the financial markets feel are like a house of cards build on a windy day. He may get away with it but then the odds are Against him.

As I told Drew google up Chrysler Fiat Sergio plans and read what most of the reliable market watchers have said since he announced it last year. Even one of his steps has changed as for a need for a partner.

This is not so much a product problem but a money issue that Chrysler is funding to save Fiat and not getting much in return.

We all though GM was doing better in the 80's-90's  and later. Then it all came crashing down. This is not much different. The better Jeep does the more Sergio is taking from them and not giving back.

 

So you really think he can increase Alfa from 68k units to 400,000 in the next two years? Even Toyota would have a hard time meeting that goal with massive discounts.

[Drew Dowdell]

After 2010, Alfa had two mainstream models, the MiTo a Scion iQ/VW Up competitor and the Giulietta, basically a Dodge Dart hatchback.   I don't know how Serg expects to get from there to 400,000 units total.  

 

Even if the Giulia does well and they sell 50,000 in the first year (a number which would beat last year's ATS sales by a wide margin)

Where do the other 250,000 units come from?  Bring the hatchback only Giulietta over?  One of the best selling hatchbacks is the Mazda3 which sold 104k last years, but only a portion of that number is actually a 5-door.   Figure 50%?   So if they brought it over and somehow beat Impreza (59k) Golf (34K) A3 (22k) in sales.... they get what, another 50k sales?   They sell about 60k Giuliaettes in the EU... so we're now up to 160k?

 

Where does the rest come from?  Can Serg double those numbers in China?  Can Serg even build that many?

[G. David Felt]

Back to the RAM discussion, I wonder how GM and FORD will respond to this Twist Upgrade? Torque war is ragging right now!

[Drew Dowdell]

I wonder if/when we'll hit a practical limit. What's next, a Ram 3500 with 1,000lb feet of torque?  What for...pulling submarines out of the ocean?

[El Kabong]

Torque in trucks is like speed in exotics: mostly theoretical, but fun to discuss.

[Stew]

Stew there is one simple reason here that the Camaro and Mustang are better cars in this particular case. They make a Sh*t load of more money as they sell a Sh*t load of more cars. You can argue all the nuances here but the fact in this case is Chrysler and Fiat need money and that Ford and Chevy leave nothing on the table as where Chrysler leaves a lot on the table. The ironic thing is they have an even more greater need for the money.

This is all about money not about model specifics. Sergio has many great needs and so very little money. He has built a plan that many in the financial markets feel are like a house of cards build on a windy day. He may get away with it but then the odds are Against him.

As I told Drew google up Chrysler Fiat Sergio plans and read what most of the reliable market watchers have said since he announced it last year. Even one of his steps has changed as for a need for a partner.

This is not so much a product problem but a money issue that Chrysler is funding to save Fiat and not getting much in return.

We all though GM was doing better in the 80's-90's  and later. Then it all came crashing down. This is not much different. The better Jeep does the more Sergio is taking from them and not giving back.

 

So you really think he can increase Alfa from 68k units to 400,000 in the next two years? Even Toyota would have a hard time meeting that goal with massive discounts.

Sorry, incorrect, the Challenger is right on the Camaros heels now and our narrow minded view forgets the 300 and Charger are built on the same platform as the Challenger (which means suspensions, powertrains, drive systems have a lot more vehicles to cover developement costs).   while the Mustang and Camaro will make less overall profit because the Mustang is on a bespoke platform and the only thing GM is selling in the US close to the 5th gen Camaro is the SS which is a generation ahead and even he C6 Camaro is running a very modified platform for it's Alpha roots which means it will be a while before they have the investment paid off, never mind the fact that the LT1 is as of yet, onl available in the relatively low colume Corvette along with the Gen 6 Camaro.  .  You do NOT understand as much as you think you do.......

[Drew Dowdell]

uh, the LT1 is available at any Chevy or GMC dealer in the truck section.   Stand in the middle of the truck lot, throw a tomato, and there is a really good chance you'll hit a truck with an LT1.