3800 V6 Racing Leauge

[smk4565]

I like Formula, but a friend of mine was saying how it has gotten boring, it isn't as good as the old days, there is no passing Mercedes always wins, etc.  Which got me thinking how great would a racing league be where all cars had to have a 3800 V6?  This way there is strategy in car selection and it would reward skilled driving.

 

Some basic rules:

240 hp max  (the GNX and Twin Turbo Trans Am would not be allowed)

Stock wheels, but you could put on any tires you want

Can remove excess weight like spare tire and jack, can't change the body or remove seats

No engine modifications, but allowed to put new oil, filters, spark, plugs, etc to keep it maintained

 

Races would be roughly 120 miles, so they could be done in under 2 hours on a mix of race tracks, some power circuits, other handling circuits so all cars have equal chance.

 

The true strategy comes in car selection, as you would use the same car in all 10 races, so reliability is a concern, a newer car like a LaCrosse would have an edge in that regard.  The rwd Camaro/Firebird have then handling and braking advantage, but no supercharger, woeful 0-60 times around 8 seconds, and are form the 90s, and reliability issues are a concern.  A Grand Prix GTP or Regal GS with the supercharger would win the straight line battle, but not have as good handling as a Camaro.  Being a no contract league, perhaps one wants a Park Aveune Ultra that will be harder to overtake since it is so large.  The Monte Carlo would have NASCAR pedigree.  And the one year the Trans Sport van had a 3800, it is welcome too.

 

So of all the 3800 V6 cars, which would be win the inaugural season of the 3800 V6 Racing Series?

 

I personally might go with a 2004 Buick Regal GS   It has the supercharger so it will be good in a straight line, it is on the newer end which should bode well for reliability, it has soft seats for driver comfort.

[Drew Dowdell]

Can I make suspension changes?

[Drew Dowdell]

BTW - I pick a 2004 Holden Commodore S with the supercharged 3800 and 5-speed manual

[smk4565]

I would say the suspension has to be the stock set up.  So you could put new shocks and struts on, or put new brakes on.  What would be allowed is if you go to Autozone or Advance and they have brake pads/rotors that are like regular, Gold or Platinum level, you could buy the platinum ones which may be better than stock but aren't really going to change the performance of the car.

[smk4565]

BTW - I pick a 2004 Holden Commodore S with the supercharged 3800 and 5-speed manual

That would probably be a hard car to beat, I wasn't thinking of non-American cars.  That might have to be another rule change.  I suppose the Holden would be allowed, if it got too dominating it could ruin the sport.  Sort of why I don't think the Pontiac Grand Prix Comp G from 2006 should be allowed.  It had 260 hp and was the newest.  A GNX did 0-60 in liek 4.7 seconds, that would just be unfair even with 80s handling.

 

What is great about the other 3800 cars is all have a flaw.  The Camaro/Firebird should have the best handling, but are the slowest.  Every car has a trade off, the Regal GS might be fastest in a straight line but would handle the worst.

Edited June 21, 2015 by smk4565

[Drew Dowdell]

 

BTW - I pick a 2004 Holden Commodore S with the supercharged 3800 and 5-speed manual

That would probably be a hard car to beat, I wasn't thinking of non-American cars.  That might have to be another rule change.

 

What is great about the other 3800 cars is all have a flaw.  The Camaro/Firebird should have the best handling, but are the slowest.  Every car has a trade off, the Regal GS might be fastest in a straight line but would handle the worst.

 

 

Another good oddball would be the 3800 powered Cutlass Ciera International.  The answer to your Regal GS quandary is the Grand Prix GTP coupe.

[smk4565]

What is great about this form of racing is the low cost of entry.  For $5,000 you could have a car, maybe $10,000 max.  Vs. millions of dollars for a Formula 1 car.

[Thed]

Pontiac G6 Coupe with a 6-speed manual. It exists. 

[smk4565]

The G6 had the 3500 liter pushrod and 3900 pushrod V6.

 

I did just think of another rule that would create more strategy and simplify rules.  $10,000 would be the budget for the car plus upgrades.  So you could spend the whole $10k on a newer car, like a 05 Monte Carlo supercharged or maybe spend $3k on a 97 Grand Prix then spend $7,000 on maintenance, sticky tires, beefed up brakes, etc.  I think I like that rule, sort of like when Top Gear tried to make a Renault Avantime go faster.

[Drew Dowdell]

Pontiac G6 Coupe with a 6-speed manual. It exists. 

 

Not with a 3800 it doesn't.

[oldshurst442]

I owned a 2005 Impala SS....it was my daily driver....

I think I would have raced it....

But I would have either opted for an L67 3800 Grand Prix (240HP max, right? Because an L32 2005 GP would really be my choice...or the 2002 SLP Grand Prix)...because of all the W-Bodies that enjoyed this engine...I think 'twas the Grand Prix that had the best suspension/tire set-ups and that wide track stance also enhanced the handling...

 

Or I would have gone with a 1999 L67 3800 Buick Riviera...just because a Riviera would look good racing...Id have the coolest car there. And no worries about reliability...as its a Buick...and back in the 1990s...Buick sold to old fogeys...you know...church on Sundays...Bingo on Wednesdays, milk and prescription drugs on Thursdays and the rest of the time spent in the garage...while being washed every other day...

Edited June 22, 2015 by oldshurst442

[Thed]

 

Pontiac G6 Coupe with a 6-speed manual. It exists. 

 

Not with a 3800 it doesn't.

 

 

I saw one in person when I used to work at a state inspection station. It had a 3800 and it was in a white Pontiac G6 two-door with a six speed manual. I remember it very well, he had a car seat in the back and the interior was a friggin mess I pulled it out of the shop after the inspection. I wish I could have taken cars for "test drives" sometimes when I was working there. 

[Drew Dowdell]

Pontiac G6 Coupe with a 6-speed manual. It exists.

 

Not with a 3800 it doesn't.

 

I saw one in person when I used to work at a state inspection station. It had a 3800 and it was in a white Pontiac G6 two-door with a six speed manual. I remember it very well, he had a car seat in the back and the interior was a friggin mess I pulled it out of the shop after the inspection. I wish I could have taken cars for "test drives" sometimes when I was working there.

you saw a 3900, not a 3800. Or someone did a rather strange swap.

[Drew Dowdell]

A Bonneville SSEI wouldn't be a terrible choice either. They're big, but they only weight like 3500 lbs.

[Thed]

 

 

 

Pontiac G6 Coupe with a 6-speed manual. It exists.

 

Not with a 3800 it doesn't.

 

I saw one in person when I used to work at a state inspection station. It had a 3800 and it was in a white Pontiac G6 two-door with a six speed manual. I remember it very well, he had a car seat in the back and the interior was a friggin mess I pulled it out of the shop after the inspection. I wish I could have taken cars for "test drives" sometimes when I was working there.

you saw a 3900, not a 3800. Or someone did a rather strange swap.

 

 

3900? Didn't know that existed. I could have sworn the sticker said 3.8L.

[smk4565]

I saw a Bonneville SSEi with 140k miles for like $3,100.

 

I think to maintain competitive balance you can't let in SLP Firehawks or the Comp G Grand Prix with 260 hp from 2007.  Clearly that is going to win too easily.  Which is a problem with many forms of motorsport, the team with the biggest budget is going to win.

[smk4565]

the 3900 was a last ditch effort to continue the pushrod V6 and 3800 series, made from 2006-2009 I think.  They used it on the Malibu SS and G6 GTP for a couple years, the Impala and Lucerne had it.  I think it make like 239 hp without a supercharger, so it was a way to stay competitive on horsepower at least with the Honda and Toyota 3.5 V6s that were putting out around 250 hp.  Then the 2.4 ecotec four replaced GM's smaller V6s, the 3.6 liter V6 replaced the 3900s.

[smk4565]

Imagine this starting grid:

[El Kabong]

If the race is a long one I'll avoid the S/C engines-they aren't intercooled.

I will choose the ultimate ringer: I will take the 1989 Pontiac 20th Anniversary Turbo Trans Am Indy Pace Car. All the loony acceleration of the GNX, plus great (if brutal) handling. Eat my dust, suckaaaaaa!

Edited June 22, 2015 by El Kabong

[smk4565]

If the race is a long one I'll avoid the S/C engines-they aren't intercooled.

I will choose the ultimate ringer: I will take the 1989 Pontiac 20th Anniversary Turbo Trans Am Indy Pace Car. All the loony acceleration of the GNX, plus great (if brutal) handling. Eat my dust, suckaaaaaa!

One of my first rules was the twin turbo Trans Am and GNX would have to be banned.  They are just too fast for the rest.  But as I think about it, I think a price cap should be put in.  $10,000 at most maybe would be even more entertaining if there was a $5,000 limit on the car.

 

But a good point about the S/C engines.

[oldshurst442]

 

If the race is a long one I'll avoid the S/C engines-they aren't intercooled.

I will choose the ultimate ringer: I will take the 1989 Pontiac 20th Anniversary Turbo Trans Am Indy Pace Car. All the loony acceleration of the GNX, plus great (if brutal) handling. Eat my dust, suckaaaaaa!

One of my first rules was the twin turbo Trans Am and GNX would have to be banned.  They are just too fast for the rest.  But as I think about it, I think a price cap should be put in.  $10,000 at most maybe would be even more entertaining if there was a $5,000 limit on the car.

 

But a good point about the S/C engines.

 

Yeah...you tell him about the rules...because that would have been my choice too...then the SLP Grand Prix. 

But then again...maybe I still stick with the Riviera....its always better to look good...

 

 

I know Billy...thanx...its the Riviera....

[El Kabong]

Those S/C 3800s... oy vey.

Back in the day when Oshawa was prepping to launch the final-gen Grand Prix, I cornered a powertrain engineer and asked her why GM didn't bother to intercool the things. I just assumed that it was GM cheaping out, knowing/hoping that the iron block would take whatever abuse the blower could dish out. Turns out it WAS GM being cheap, but not with the engine. The transaxle was only rated for about 280 lb/ft of twist, and an intercooler would have put the engine well past that. I nodded politely, thanked her for her time, and walked away despairing for my job.

[Thed]

El K, are there any intercooler kits for them? 

[El Kabong]

None that I'm aware of. As best as I can figure the guys who got those ran out of transmission long before they ran out of engine, and transmission mods just don't sound as sexy. My buddy got a paddle-shift GTP as a company car and went through four transaxles before his company finally cut him off.

Edited June 22, 2015 by El Kabong

[Thed]

That's funny...

 

That engine had potential in supercharged form, too bad they killed it right as it was getting good. I've heard of it being done, but I've just never seen it, in person or on the internet, which makes me skeptical.

[oldshurst442]

I never had problems with my Impala....but then again...I did not drive it like a mad man either. I loved the instant acceleration I got with it....but somehow...I knew not to push my luck with it.

The one thing I hated about it...the one thing that made me be embarrassed driving it, was the cheap painting process GM has with most of their vehicles. The paint had started to peel off at the wheel wells, all four wheel wells and rust had started to form. I was ready to buy black Tremclad anti-rust spray paint but a teenaged girl reversed into the passenger side door and made a huuuge dent...well...6-8 months later...I traded her in for the car I drive now.

[smk4565]

Eligibility rules for the 3800 V6 racing league are up for debate.  What is great about 3800 cars is there are so many from so many different eras with different capabilities.  If you did a Mercedes 6.3 V8 league, then every car would be an SLS AMG because it has better acceleration, braking, handling, than an S63 or E63.  Likewise if you did a Hemi V8 racing league every car would be a Charger Hellcat.

 

With the 3800 cars, you could see a 95 Camaro, 98 Firebird, 99 Riviera, 97 Regal GS, 04 Grand Prix, 05 Monte Carlo, 05 Impala, 08 LaCrosse, 02 Park Ave Ultra, etc and any of them could have a chance to win.

[Drew Dowdell]

the 3900 was a last ditch effort to continue the pushrod V6 and 3800 series, made from 2006-2009 I think.  They used it on the Malibu SS and G6 GTP for a couple years, the Impala and Lucerne had it.  I think it make like 239 hp without a supercharger, so it was a way to stay competitive on horsepower at least with the Honda and Toyota 3.5 V6s that were putting out around 250 hp.  Then the 2.4 ecotec four replaced GM's smaller V6s, the 3.6 liter V6 replaced the 3900s.

 

The 3900 was in no way related to the 3800.  The 3800 had a 90 degree cylinder angle, the 3900 had a 60 degree cylinder angle. 

 

The 3900 was a very advanced engine and it was only due to the drumbeat of the uninformed like you who chase high horsepower per liter that killed it. 

It had 240 horsepower and 240 lb-ft of torque with a turbo-charged like torque curve.  90% of max torque was available from 1,500 rpm - 5,500 rpm.  It had variable valve timing, variable length intake manifold, and on the Impala it had Active-fuel-management.  It was surprisingly efficient even in the big cars. It is also substantially physically smaller externally and lighter than any DOHC V6 made of the same material.

[smk4565]

Oh yeah that is right, I forgot about the 60 degree angle, which is the proper angle for a V6.  Since it was paired with the 3500 V6, where did those come from?  Was that based of the 3.4 liter V6?  I'd imagine all the GM V8s are 90 degree so they couldn't cut one of those down, like they did with the Northstar to the 3.5 DOHC V6.

[Drew Dowdell]

The 3500 and 3900 were designed at the same time and were distant cousins of the old 2.8 liter V6 which begat the 3.1 OHV which begat the 3.4 OHV.  The 3.4 Twin Dual Cam was related to these also.

[smk4565]

I just thought of a great spin-off series to the 3800 V6 racing league.  The GM Relay Race Racing Series.  This would be an endurance racing series of 8 hour races (3 drivers per team).  Could also be done as a 16 hour endurance race with 4 drivers per team.

 

Each team would have 8 cars from 8 different GM brands (past or present), maximum 1 car per brand.

Each team would have to have at least 1 two-door car (coupe or convertible), 1 four-door sedan, 1 SUV, 1 pickup and 1 van.

Max budget for all 8 cars would bet set at a pre-determined limit like $80,000

Maybe a minimum car price like $4,000

Each car has to do 1 hour of race time.  (or 2 hours each for 16 hour race)

 

The budget makes it hard to throw a Corvette in there with a whole bunch of cheap slow cars, makes it hard to afford a GMC Typhoon or Cyclone, and you could only get one.  A Cyclone would take care of the GMC and pickup requirement with 1 vehicle, but if you add a Corvette, Chevy is out for the van.  So you think Transport Montana, but then you can't get a firebird.  And a Saturn Relay might take up more budget than you want to spend on a slow car.

Edited June 25, 2015 by smk4565

[smk4565]

My team:

 

2003 GMC Sonoma reg. cab 4.3 V6:  $5,000

2007 Saturn Relay 3900 V6:               $7,000

2005 Buick Rainier V8:                       $8,000

1999 Pontiac Firebird Trans Am:        $7,000

2007 Saab 9-5 Aero:                          $7,000

2003 Oldsmobile Aurora 4.0:             $4,000

2004 Cadillac CTS-V:                        $15,000

2004 Chevrolet Corvette Z06:           $20,000

 

$73,000 total

[Drew Dowdell]

2010 Chevrolet Cobalt SS Turbo $10k

2010 Pontiac Solstice GXP $15k

2006 Saturn Vue Red-Line $8k

1995 Oldsmobile Silhouette 3800 - $4,000

2008 Buick Lacrosse Super - $10,000

2004 Cadillac CTS-V - $15k

2006 Saab 9-3 Aero V6 2.8 Turbo -$8k

2005 GMC Envoy XUV $10k - Covers me for truck and SUV ;-)

 

$80k on the nose assuming I find a '95 Olds Van that is still worth $4k

[smk4565]

The Vue Red Line is a good SUV option, those were pretty quick and I forgot they even made that.  Honda V6 too for good reliability.   I thought about an SRX V8 because those could handle, but needed the CTS-V, and I felt I had to get a Corvette and Firebird V8 in there.  Typhoons and Cyclones were like $15-20k, too much to spend on the truck.

[Drew Dowdell]

Well because I have the Envoy XUV in there, I was thinking I could swap out the Vue Red-Line for a 2004 Ion Red-Line 5-speed manual and save a couple bucks while gaining some speed.

[smk4565]

If I were a producer for the new Clarkson, Hammond, May car show that is rumored to go to Netfix, I would give each of them, $3,800 to buy a GM car with a 3800 V6 and set them off on a series of challenges.

[ccap41]

BTW - I pick a 2004 Holden Commodore S with the supercharged 3800 and 5-speed manual

That would probably be a hard car to beat, I wasn't thinking of non-American cars.  That might have to be another rule change.

 

What is great about the other 3800 cars is all have a flaw.  The Camaro/Firebird should have the best handling, but are the slowest.  Every car has a trade off, the Regal GS might be fastest in a straight line but would handle the worst.

 

Another good oddball would be the 3800 powered Cutlass Ciera International.  The answer to your Regal GS quandary is the Grand Prix GTP coupe.

Exactly my pick would be the Grand Prix GTP, and because it'll be raced the coupe it would be.