CT8 to be First True Flagship in Modern Era

[balthazar]

From what I've seen, Ford is 'bragging' about the weight loss vs. the previous F-150, not vs. the Silverado.

Looking at truck loyalty figures, that makes a ton more marketing sense; they are primarily marketing to Ford customers.

[Drew Dowdell]

Come on Drew, you are a bright guy, do you really think all that aluminum only contributes to an 81lb weight savings? 

 

It can if they throw more steel in other places. 

 

Ford is claiming about a 1,200lbs payload advantage over the competition in certain configuration, but the F-150 didn't drop 1,200 lbs in weight, so it can't be the weight savings from using aluminum that lets them claim that rating. 

 

Additionally, Ford is advertising that with less truck weight, there is more ability to tow.  Interestingly, there is only one configuration of F-150 (Supercab 4x2 3.5EB) that exceeds a comparable Silverado 1500 in towing ability and even then only by 100lbs. In all other configurations, the Silverado beats the F-150 in towing capability.  

 

So since the move to Aluminum doesn't appear to have any effect on the payload rating, zero benefit in the tow rating, and marginal effect in fuel economy when comparing equally powerful engines (I attribute this mostly to engine choice than body material choice); I'll ask again, where are the results?

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

 

Come on Drew, you are a bright guy, do you really think all that aluminum only contributes to an 81lb weight savings? 

 

It can if they throw more steel in other places. 

 

Ford is claiming about a 1,200lbs payload advantage over the competition in certain configuration, but the F-150 didn't drop 1,200 lbs in weight, so it can't be the weight savings from using aluminum that lets them claim that rating. 

 

Additionally, Ford is advertising that with less truck weight, there is more ability to tow.  Interestingly, there is only one configuration of F-150 (Supercab 4x2 3.5EB) that exceeds a comparable Silverado 1500 in towing ability and even then only by 100lbs. In all other configurations, the Silverado beats the F-150 in towing capability.  

 

So since the move to Aluminum doesn't appear to have any effect on the payload rating, zero benefit in the tow rating, and marginal effect in fuel economy when comparing equally powerful engines (I attribute this mostly to engine choice than body material choice); I'll ask again, where are the results?

 

The payload advantage comes from building a stronger bed.

And there are lots of benefits, as I mentioned, not just in fuel economy.  And the benefits are stepped, like Ford typically does it.  New truck now, then new 10spd transmissions and engine upgrades (all new D35 GTDI)  and technologies (cyl deact, etc) that will really step up the economy and performance.  All Ford did, afaiac, is change material.  So much more to do.

[El Kabong]

In the end it should be the total mass that matters and not the materials. Ford marketing has made everyone think they have invented the DI Turbo and the Aluminum body but they didn't. GM just needs to do a better job marketing their smart and careful engineering as it is very impressive but no one knows about it. Many still are shocked I have a Turbo DI 4 cylinder predating Ford in a 08 HHR. I even have more power than theirs yet today.

 

Ford really has done well with marketing and I can only hope GM catches up there. For once they have something good to market but yet they are still not doing as much marketing as they could or should do.

 

People today are so ignorant as they only know what the latest thing posted on their phone is true or not. Just look at the people who go out and interview people on the street on global news and politics. I just saw some guy ask people about Jon Bonjovi's run for president. They never even caught on to the joke when he said he was livin on a prayer.

 

These soft minds need to be mined and collected with info and excitement for the product anymore. If GM does not do it others will and do it with inferior product at that.

 Downsizing and ever increasing use of Aluminum is pretty much a given at this point. Not sure it is a worthwhile effort to criticize one's marketing for pronouncing the fact they are pushing both.

 

It would be great if the use of Aluminum in the F-150 were super effective, but they just barely undercut the GM twins that are all steel.   The difference between the two is about one loaded tool box.  Is the F-150 downsized at all?

Comparable truck weight difference is about 350lbs. 

But it’s all relative. The new F-150 gained size and capability from previous gen, which was long in the tooth and heavy out of the gate, yet still managed to shed 500lbs relative to previous gen truck (up to 700 maximum lbs).  Not an easy task.  I presume if Ford were to keep the truck mostly steel with this new generation, they could have still shed about 150-200lbs, just as GM did with their new generation.  It’s all relative.

 

And more weight reduction is coming.  They are not done.

 

For that much aluminum (and bragging), I would expect a greater amount of mass reduction.  The actual weight reduction is much less than what you cite, but even still, 300 is about how much lighter the CT6 is verses an all steel car of the same size and there is a lot less wiggle room for weight reduction in a sedan than in a truck.

And as I noted, the Ford's max towing and payload are still lower than the Silverado's.

It's a disappointing execution of a promising concept-one that GM and Mopar can easily capitalize on in this segment, and a pitfall Cadillac appears to have avoided with Omega.

[hyperv6]

The truth is the Ford F 150 was a total pig to start with and is why they would only compare weight loss to the out going model. The real fact is Ford needs to do some real engineering now they have exhausted the material part of the loss of mass.

 

As for the part they did get right is that they have convinced so many in the public that their trucks have a major advantage because the unwashed masses just assume. This is where GM should hit them right in the truck nutz and state the facts head to head. I would love it if GM picked up the 1 MPG they lack with the V8 over the V6 Turbo and hit Ford with that too.

The new Ford is a good truck with out question. The reality is it is not really any better truck than the Chevy and to be honest it may have a hard time keeping up once Chevy applies the lighter materials.

Also the truth on repair is coming out as so few shops can deal with it and in the near future repair cost will also show up in the insurance premiums too. While you may be able to replace panels you can not repair them as we do with steal. No paintless repair here as Aluminum has no memory. You get a dent you replace the panel at a higher cost vs. repair.

 

The same applied to the Turbo V6 as Ford has made a killing by generating excitement over the engine. But the MPG is marginal at best by one MPG over the Chevy. Also the cost to buy the engine is more. The only thing the turbo does offer is a flatter torque curve that makes it feel good but is it $1400 better than the Coyote? It is for the profits for Ford.

 

As for payloads that is just a pissing contest for all of them. The fact is most trucks ride empty most of the time and 95% of them never reach even near capacity. So that point is very irrelevant.

I think you are seeing the truth on the Colorado and Canyon that people really want more rational sized trucks. I am out of the truck market now because I really have no use for a full size truck as they are. I passed over the Colorado in the past because it was a piece of crap. Today I may get back into the truck segment for a daily driver because of the new smaller truck. As for now I use my father in laws new Z71 if I need to haul something. It is my truck when I need it. It is the best riding full size I have ever driven too. If they could just get rid of the lag in the kick down. I think it is the cylinder drop that causes it. It is 4 time more lag than my turbo.

 

The only thing Ford has won here his they have done a terrific job on marketing with the excitement they have created. GM could do better as they have just as good and even better product but they need to get the word out. This is one area still lacking post Chapter 11 as you can build the best car in the world but you still have to sell it.

This applies to Cadillac as they have some compelling cars but the fact so few have even tried or considered them. The Autoweek fantasy camp proved you get their ass behind the wheel they will be impressed. It came away a very convincing number one of the group that consisted of the Germans and some Asian cars. It beat overall in the opinion of the campers the best of Germany.

 

As for Ford they had a lead on GM because they went broke first. They have been rebuilding for 5-6 more years than GM and this gave them a lead. As of now GM is closing the gap and doing it pretty fast considering all they had to do and even while dealing with the ignition issue.

 

The key of late is the money GM just committed to the tech center and proving grounds. This is key as most MFG put more in product vs. development. This investment will pay off much as the CAFE rises and as cars continue to be more competitive. The increase in engineering and GM finally able to fund programs till they are finish vs. just as much as they could afford will make a major difference.

I just love how Ford has joined GM to build trannys. Even they know who builds the best transmissions.

[smk4565]

I'll be impressed when a pick up hits 30 mpg. For the huge margins they make on pick ups, and the engineering dollars that go into them, someone should be able to achieve it. Even if they need diesel or hybrid to get there.

[El Kabong]

I'll be impressed when a pick up hits 30 mpg. For the huge margins they make on pick ups, and the engineering dollars that go into them, someone should be able to achieve it. Even if they need diesel or hybrid to get there.

I suspect the diesel Canyon will impress you, then. In the meantime, my truck would leave you about 85% impressed.

Edited June 24, 2015 by El Kabong

[Drew Dowdell]

I'll be impressed when a pick up hits 30 mpg. For the huge margins they make on pick ups, and the engineering dollars that go into them, someone should be able to achieve it. Even if they need diesel or hybrid to get there.

 

The diesel Canyon is rumored to be able to blow right on by that number on the highway.

[smk4565]

I was thinking more full size and 30 mpg.  Although the Canyon is fairly big, certainly larger than the old school compact pick ups. 

[Drew Dowdell]

I was thinking more full size and 30 mpg. Although the Canyon is fairly big, certainly larger than the old school compact pick ups.

It's nearly as long as the older F 150 though not as wide. I'm told that some journalists highway number started with a 4.

[smk4565]

If they'd repeal the chicken tax, we'd probably get some imported small trucks that could get 40 mpg and would be dirt cheap.   Like the Brazilian Chevy Montana, totally spartan and has a little 4-cylinder, but I am sure it doesn't cost much either.

[balthazar]

Isn't the EcoDiesel Ram rated @ 29 on the highway?

[surreal1272]

How exactly did this go from the CT8 to pick ups?

[G. David Felt]

Wonder if since they are planning a CT8 if they will plan a Luxury Pickup?

[El Kabong]

How exactly did this go from the CT8 to pick ups?

Utilization of aluminum and its effectiveness in the Omega and F-Series.

Wonder if since they are planning a CT8 if they will plan a Luxury Pickup?

I would love to see a Duramax Diesel Dually Escalade with air suspension and an extended-range tank. Texas and Alberta alone could support it.

Ain't gonna happen.

[smk4565]

How exactly did this go from the CT8 to pick ups?

Because the CT8 is still a phantom that doesn't exist yet, and will probably arrive with a torqueless V6.

[surreal1272]

 

How exactly did this go from the CT8 to pick ups?

Because the CT8 is still a phantom that doesn't exist yet, and will probably arrive with a torqueless V6.

 

That makes zero sense in relation to them spending so much time talking about unrelated trucks. You also know nothing about the powertrains for the CT8 but given that most of the competition also have torqueless motors, it makes your post even more irrelevant and trolling in nature.

[smk4565]

 

 

How exactly did this go from the CT8 to pick ups?

Because the CT8 is still a phantom that doesn't exist yet, and will probably arrive with a torqueless V6.

 

That makes zero sense in relation to them spending so much time talking about unrelated trucks. You also know nothing about the powertrains for the CT8 but given that most of the competition also have torqueless motors, it makes your post even more irrelevant and trolling in nature.

 

The CT8's main competitor has 516 lb-ft of torque from 2,000 rpm in base model.  Cadillac loves turbo fours for some odd reason, and their V6 makes like 273 lb-ft at 5,000 rpm.  I hope the CT6's weak motors aren't in the CT8.   Maybe they'll make the 400 hp twin turbo V6 the base engine in the CT8.  I'd make that the base engine in the CT6 if it were up to me, and get some twin turbo V8s in both those cars.  And both should have some sort of plug-in hybrid, even if only to sell in California to appease the bizzaro emission credit regulations there.

[G. David Felt]

 

How exactly did this go from the CT8 to pick ups?

Because the CT8 is still a phantom that doesn't exist yet, and will probably arrive with a torqueless V6.

 

Just like your over rated world best S series BS MB Garbage!

 

Amazing how you will always move the goalpost and have a million excuses for MB but everyone else especially Cadillac you always have to state will fail.

 

I will be the first one to both admit that I was wrong if your so called predictions come true but also will be the first to point out how your over rated German MB crap has become nothing more than an over rated Chevrolet product line with lower and lower quality as they whore out the MB luxury badge to increase profits for the few executives at the expense of quality. Already shows in most of MB products.

[oldshurst442]

 

 

 

How exactly did this go from the CT8 to pick ups?

Because the CT8 is still a phantom that doesn't exist yet, and will probably arrive with a torqueless V6.

 

That makes zero sense in relation to them spending so much time talking about unrelated trucks. You also know nothing about the powertrains for the CT8 but given that most of the competition also have torqueless motors, it makes your post even more irrelevant and trolling in nature.

 

The CT8's main competitor has 516 lb-ft of torque from 2,000 rpm in base model.  Cadillac loves turbo fours for some odd reason, and their V6 makes like 273 lb-ft at 5,000 rpm.  I hope the CT6's weak motors aren't in the CT8.   Maybe they'll make the 400 hp twin turbo V6 the base engine in the CT8.  I'd make that the base engine in the CT6 if it were up to me, and get some twin turbo V8s in both those cars.  And both should have some sort of plug-in hybrid, even if only to sell in California to appease the bizzaro emission credit regulations there.

 

yet you yourself say that the CT8 is still a phantom that doesnt exist yet, but proceed...with 2 posts...to proclaim what kind of powertrains this phantom CT8 that doesnt exist yet will have as...powertrains...

 

Here is a little word Id like for you to study.

Edited June 25, 2015 by oldshurst442

[G. David Felt]

 

 

 

How exactly did this go from the CT8 to pick ups?

Because the CT8 is still a phantom that doesn't exist yet, and will probably arrive with a torqueless V6.

 

That makes zero sense in relation to them spending so much time talking about unrelated trucks. You also know nothing about the powertrains for the CT8 but given that most of the competition also have torqueless motors, it makes your post even more irrelevant and trolling in nature.

 

The CT8's main competitor has 516 lb-ft of torque from 2,000 rpm in base model.  Cadillac loves turbo fours for some odd reason, and their V6 makes like 273 lb-ft at 5,000 rpm.  I hope the CT6's weak motors aren't in the CT8.   Maybe they'll make the 400 hp twin turbo V6 the base engine in the CT8.  I'd make that the base engine in the CT6 if it were up to me, and get some twin turbo V8s in both those cars.  And both should have some sort of plug-in hybrid, even if only to sell in California to appease the bizzaro emission credit regulations there.

 

Yet based on the European Commission the future of V8 and V12 engines are bleak and will end up going away as they reach for their goals they have stated for 2030, All auto companies are going to have to move to electric motor driven with generators or pure EV unless hydrogen truly takes off.

 

Diesel Net has a good easy to understand emission coverage:

https://www.dieselnet.com/standards/eu/ld.php

 

If you want it straight from the horses mouth then go to the Transportation and Environment web site covering emissions:

http://ec.europa.eu/environment/air/transport/road.htm

 

Here is the European Climate commission with the stated key targets for 2020 and 2030:

http://ec.europa.eu/clima/policies/brief/eu/

 

MB is going to have to find ways to drop their BLOATED weight and will end up having to move to 4 and 6 cylinder engines with electric motor assist, hybrids to meet these targets.

[smk4565]

 

 

How exactly did this go from the CT8 to pick ups?

Because the CT8 is still a phantom that doesn't exist yet, and will probably arrive with a torqueless V6.

 

Just like your over rated world best S series BS MB Garbage!

 

Amazing how you will always move the goalpost and have a million excuses for MB but everyone else especially Cadillac you always have to state will fail.

 

I will be the first one to both admit that I was wrong if your so called predictions come true but also will be the first to point out how your over rated German MB crap has become nothing more than an over rated Chevrolet product line with lower and lower quality as they whore out the MB luxury badge to increase profits for the few executives at the expense of quality. Already shows in most of MB products.

 

I am not moving any goal post or stating the CT8 will fail, no one has seen it or know anything about it, it like 4 years away still. 

 

But looking at Cadillac's engine line, the ATS, CTS, CT6 have a 4-cylinder, and the torqueless V6 is optional.  I figured on the CT8 they'd at least start with the V6.

 

If it were up to me, I'd have the 2.0T standard in the ATS and that would be the only 4-cylinder in Cadillac, aside from the plug in hybrid turbo 4, because that makes decent power, and every brand needs green cars.  They make these light weight cars with rigid chassis then put a wimpy engine in.  Let's get some V8s in these light weight sedans and make them fly.

[oldshurst442]

From what I've seen, Ford is 'bragging' about the weight loss vs. the previous F-150, not vs. the Silverado.

Looking at truck loyalty figures, that makes a ton more marketing sense; they are primarily marketing to Ford customers.

I never thought of it that way...and I am forced to...see it the way you do as its much much logical your point of view.

[oldshurst442]

 

 

 

How exactly did this go from the CT8 to pick ups?

Because the CT8 is still a phantom that doesn't exist yet, and will probably arrive with a torqueless V6.

 

Just like your over rated world best S series BS MB Garbage!

 

Amazing how you will always move the goalpost and have a million excuses for MB but everyone else especially Cadillac you always have to state will fail.

 

I will be the first one to both admit that I was wrong if your so called predictions come true but also will be the first to point out how your over rated German MB crap has become nothing more than an over rated Chevrolet product line with lower and lower quality as they whore out the MB luxury badge to increase profits for the few executives at the expense of quality. Already shows in most of MB products.

 

I am not moving any goal post or stating the CT8 will fail, no one has seen it or know anything about it, it like 4 years away still. 

 

Correct me if Im wrong...but I think Cadillac will also debut new...bespoke engines in that time frame also...

So...back to that little word....I think its necessary for you to study it...

 

[Cmicasa the Great]

 

How exactly did this go from the CT8 to pick ups?

Because the CT8 is still a phantom that doesn't exist yet, and will probably arrive with a torqueless V6.

 

 

 

 

and U are an ... I digress.. (HIGH ROAD Cmi) U are simply NOT paying attention. The CT8 will exist because the CT8 (DT7) was always meant to be. The XTS (CT6) was a fluke... a product of the BK.. always a stop-gap... until it became a hit, and became necessary. 

 

Cadillac has certainly voiced that the CT6 is a drivers's car, but I think people are misconstruing what that means. I think when people hear "driver's car" they think of the E46 3Series and its fun but jarring ride. I submit that the CT6 is an adjustable driver's car .. one that will be BOTH a cruiser and a fun car. This generation of MRC, not to mention the car being a whopping 204inches long, demands its duality. I mean how idiotic are we to believe that, weight aside, it will be as much of a "rough rider" as a car that once weight as little as it? Active dampers, Magnetic Ride Control working in cohesion with active rear steering??? The CT6 is a Prince. The CT8 will be King

[smk4565]

Emission standards are ever increasing, but that is why BMW makes the i3, Mercedes makes that dopey B-class electric, why Volkswagen sells eGolfs, etc.  They need those to offset Rolls-Royce, S65 AMG's, and Bentleys and Bugattis.  As long as they make enough electric cars they can still have some low volume V12 or V10 cars.

 

The S600 gets 21 mpg highway, there are pickup trucks that do worse than that, and I don't see a rush to put turbo fours in the Silverado and Ram, or to get them under 4,500 lbs.  And how many S600s and S65 AMGs do they sell?  Maybe 10,000 a year globally?   Rolls sells like 3,000 cars a year or something, not big numbers, easily offset some of the low emission offerings.

[smk4565]

 

 

 

 

How exactly did this go from the CT8 to pick ups?

Because the CT8 is still a phantom that doesn't exist yet, and will probably arrive with a torqueless V6.

 

Just like your over rated world best S series BS MB Garbage!

 

Amazing how you will always move the goalpost and have a million excuses for MB but everyone else especially Cadillac you always have to state will fail.

 

I will be the first one to both admit that I was wrong if your so called predictions come true but also will be the first to point out how your over rated German MB crap has become nothing more than an over rated Chevrolet product line with lower and lower quality as they whore out the MB luxury badge to increase profits for the few executives at the expense of quality. Already shows in most of MB products.

 

I am not moving any goal post or stating the CT8 will fail, no one has seen it or know anything about it, it like 4 years away still. 

 

Correct me if Im wrong...but I think Cadillac will also debut new...bespoke engines in that time frame also...

So...back to that little word....I think its necessary for you to study it...

 

 

I hope Cadillac gets some bespoke engines, it has been a while since they had one.  The twin turbo 3.6 V6 has been the only Cadillac exclusive engine since the Northstar V8.  And those 3.6 TT are low volume, most Cadillacs are sold with the same engines found in Chevy.

[Cmicasa the Great]

 

 

 

How exactly did this go from the CT8 to pick ups?

Because the CT8 is still a phantom that doesn't exist yet, and will probably arrive with a torqueless V6.

 

That makes zero sense in relation to them spending so much time talking about unrelated trucks. You also know nothing about the powertrains for the CT8 but given that most of the competition also have torqueless motors, it makes your post even more irrelevant and trolling in nature.

 

The CT8's main competitor has 516 lb-ft of torque from 2,000 rpm in base model.  Cadillac loves turbo fours for some odd reason, and their V6 makes like 273 lb-ft at 5,000 rpm.  I hope the CT6's weak motors aren't in the CT8.   Maybe they'll make the 400 hp twin turbo V6 the base engine in the CT8.  I'd make that the base engine in the CT6 if it were up to me, and get some twin turbo V8s in both those cars.  And both should have some sort of plug-in hybrid, even if only to sell in California to appease the bizzaro emission credit regulations there.

 

 

 

Currently Cadillac has ONE turbo 4.. It does have 3 Turbo 6s, a NA V6, a NA V8, and a S/C V8

 

2.0LT   272hp/ 295lbs-ft  or 335HP/ and 432 ft-lbs of torque

3.6L      335hp/284lbs-ft

TT3.0L 400hp/400lbs-ft

TT3.6L 420hp/430lbs-ft

TT3.6L 464hp/444lbs-ft

6.2L      420hp/460lbs-ft

6.2LS/C 640hp/630lbs-ft

[smk4565]

But the turbo 4 is in the ATS, CTS, CT6, it is their main volume engine for their car line, and the V8s are from Chevy.   We'll have to see what the XT5 comes out with.

 

I'd be in favor of a CT6 and CT8 engine line up of 3.0 TT base, 3.6 TT mid-level, and 4.0 TT V8 as the V-sport.  CTS should replace the 2.0T with the 335 hp V6 for the bare bones model (and when XTS dies people can still get a V6), put the 3.0TT V6 in place of the current N/A V6 as the mid-level.

[oldshurst442]

 

I hope Cadillac gets some bespoke engines, it has been a while since they had one.  The twin turbo 3.6 V6 has been the only Cadillac exclusive engine since the Northstar V8.  And those 3.6 TT are low volume, most Cadillacs are sold with the same engines found in Chevy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Actually...that 3.6 liter V6 WAS a Cadillac engine only....then it became the corporate V6...

 

So...what is your point?

I understand you cant wait for Cadillac to do its own engine thing...but you view the 3.6 V6 as a bad thing...but even fail to realize that the 3.6 V6...was a bespoke engine for Cadillac use only...but what difference does that make?

Cadillac is under the GM umbrella...Once upon a time ago...all GM divisions produced their own V8s...but that tends to be super expensive...

Had the US government...along with Ford, GM and Chrysler allowed Mercedes, BMW, Volkswagen to go by the way of Adolf Hitler after the war was lost...you wouldnt be here cheering for Mercedes...I hope you realize that...

Had the US government closed the doors on West Germany....the way they did on East Germany...you wouldnt be here cheering for Mercedes...I hope you realize that.

I also hope you realize...the reason why Mercedes climbed back on top of the world, its because the US Government pushed the West German economy to stick it to those Communists that controlled East Germany during the Cold War...I hope you realize that...

[smk4565]

By that logic, since Mercedes invented the automobile in the first place, GM, Ford, Toyota, Nissan, VW, Honda, Hyundai, FCA, Renault, Peugot, Mazda, BMW, and Subaru wouldn't be here if it weren't for Mercedes inventing the automobile, and we would still be riding a horse.

 

Europe's economy would have turned around eventually after the war, as would have Japan's.  Toyota and Honda, BMW and Benz would have all still risen up over time.  The allies just sped things along, and our economy soared in the 1950s because of it.  If the US government blocked the sale of German (or Japanese) cars, the we would have had trade tariffs and embargos put on us which would hurt American exports and hurt our economy.  And the foreign brands would have made their money elsewhere.  People sometimes forget a company like Audi could sell ZERO cars in the USA, and still outsell Cadillac, Lexus and Infiniti combined globally.  Audi in China sells like Silverados sell in the USA.

[oldshurst442]

By that logic, since Mercedes invented the automobile in the first place, GM, Ford, Toyota, Nissan, VW, Honda, Hyundai, FCA, Renault, Peugot, Mazda, BMW, and Subaru wouldn't be here if it weren't for Mercedes inventing the automobile, and we would still be riding a horse.

 

Europe's economy would have turned around eventually after the war, as would have Japan's.  Toyota and Honda, BMW and Benz would have all still risen up over time.  The allies just sped things along, and our economy soared in the 1950s because of it.  If the US government blocked the sale of German (or Japanese) cars, the we would have had trade tariffs and embargos put on us which would hurt American exports and hurt our economy.  And the foreign brands would have made their money elsewhere.  People sometimes forget a company like Audi could sell ZERO cars in the USA, and still outsell Cadillac, Lexus and Infiniti combined globally.  Audi in China sells like Silverados sell in the USA.

Invented...quite a strong word...yeah...it is a misconception though...because many...tinkered with horseless carriages...at the same time as Karl and Gottlieb...

And...it took a guy named Olds to mass produce the automobile and a guy like Ford to take that further...to sell to the masses so EVERYBODY could own one...not only the stinkin' rich...and it took the Dodge Brothers along with Durant to envision many good things for the automobile...Then there is Dunbar....oh...that is on this continent...

Because on the other side of the pond...their are many French and Italian guys that would beg to differ from your point of view...You mentioned Peugeot...but that is only but a small portion of what th French had to offer.. There is André-Gustave Citroën who  introduced the first industrial mass production of vehicles outside the United States.., there is Renault...who you casually mention...but Renault built there first car in 1898...not too long after Karl...but Renault established itself as an automotive company in 1899...as where Mercedes-Benz was established as an automotive company in...1926...same year as...PONTIAC...Even Opel produced its first automobile in 1899...

 

Then there is Mr. Agnelli ...

 

After the war...Europe was in shambles...

And if it wasnt for the cold war...Europe would still be in shambles...The United Kingdom and the US...the only 2 Allied countries that did not suffer any real economic damages...had to spruce up Europe...because...well...the Ruskies...had it not been for the Ruskies...Europe...Germany especially...would be WORSE off than Greece is today....this whole Ich bin ein Berliner stufff was just to put the USSR "back into its place"...West Germany was "show cased" ...propaganda....just to show the evil Commies how better the Capitalistic world is...Yes...freedom in East Germany was limited...do you blame the Russians for revenge? I dont...Remember though...West Germany was allowed to continue to produce...as with East Germany...

Mr. Gorbachev...take down that wall...yeah...had the US and UK followed in the Russian footsteps...do you honestly believe Mercedes would have produced that 1955 300 SL? I dont think so!

 

You need to learn your history...

Edited June 25, 2015 by oldshurst442

[balthazar]

By that logic, since Mercedes invented the automobile in the first place...

 

If Benz did anything in 1885, he copied it from American James Hill, who invented this in Fleetwood PA in 1868 :

 

 

Ohhhh, so sad!

Edited June 25, 2015 by balthazar

[oldshurst442]

 

By that logic, since Mercedes invented the automobile in the first place...

 

If Benz did anything in 1885, he copied it from American James Hill, who invented this in Fleetwood PA in 1868 :

 

 

Ohhhh, so sad!

 

It was late last night when I posted my response to him....but I wanted to include steam powered vehicles...in Europe...horseless carriage steam powered vehicles were being produced about a decade before Karl's invention...

Wikipedia has pegged M-B to the first INTERNAL COMBUSTION horseless carriage...

So many things he has to learn...

[surreal1272]

 

 

How exactly did this go from the CT8 to pick ups?

Because the CT8 is still a phantom that doesn't exist yet, and will probably arrive with a torqueless V6.

 

Just like your over rated world best S series BS MB Garbage!

 

Amazing how you will always move the goalpost and have a million excuses for MB but everyone else especially Cadillac you always have to state will fail.

 

I will be the first one to both admit that I was wrong if your so called predictions come true but also will be the first to point out how your over rated German MB crap has become nothing more than an over rated Chevrolet product line with lower and lower quality as they whore out the MB luxury badge to increase profits for the few executives at the expense of quality. Already shows in most of MB products.

 

Funny, there was a time when Mercedes shared a few things with a cheaper domestic brand. Maybe you've heard of them. I think they were called Chrysler. Daimler almost single handily destroyed Chrysler with their bean counting cheapness (Crossfire comes to mind here). Wonder if you gave them as much hell then as you are giving Cadillac now?

[Drew Dowdell]

But the turbo 4 is in the ATS, CTS, CT6, it is their main volume engine for their car line, and the V8s are from Chevy.   We'll have to see what the XT5 comes out with.

 

I'd be in favor of a CT6 and CT8 engine line up of 3.0 TT base, 3.6 TT mid-level, and 4.0 TT V8 as the V-sport.  CTS should replace the 2.0T with the 335 hp V6 for the bare bones model (and when XTS dies people can still get a V6), put the 3.0TT V6 in place of the current N/A V6 as the mid-level.

BMW loves turbo-4s.

1-series

2-series 

3-series

4-series

5-series

7-series (Coming Soon, See your BMW Dealer for details!)

X1

X3

X4

Z4

 

Audi loves turbo I-4s

A1

A3

A4

A5

A6

Allroad

Q3

Q5

TT

 

Mercedes-Benz loves turbo I-4s

A-Class

B-Class

CLA

GLA

C-Class

GLC

E-Class (Coming soon! European model shown. See your Mercedes-Benz dealer for details!)

SLK

 

So.... I really don't see your point against Cadillac.

[smk4565]

Cadillac isn't even in the A and B segments or the SLK segment, which is where a lot of the Euro 4 cylinders are.  To me the 5-series is a bit big to have a 4 cylinder.  When you get to 5-series and E-class money I think you should get a standard six cylinder.

[surreal1272]

Cadillac isn't even in the A and B segments or the SLK segment, which is where a lot of the Euro 4 cylinders are.  To me the 5-series is a bit big to have a 4 cylinder.  When you get to 5-series and E-class money I think you should get a standard six cylinder.

You completely missed the point. You slam Cadillac for four cylinders applications but pass out excuse after excuse for MB using four cylinders in even MORE models.

[Drew Dowdell]

Cadillac isn't even in the A and B segments or the SLK segment, which is where a lot of the Euro 4 cylinders are.  To me the 5-series is a bit big to have a 4 cylinder.  When you get to 5-series and E-class money I think you should get a standard six cylinder.

 

Doesn't matter. MB, BMW, and Audi all love 4-cylinder turbos and have a higher percentage of their models available with a turbo-4.

[Drew Dowdell]

Cadillac isn't even in the A and B segments or the SLK segment, which is where a lot of the Euro 4 cylinders are.  To me the 5-series is a bit big to have a 4 cylinder.  When you get to 5-series and E-class money I think you should get a standard six cylinder.

 

I fully expect you to go on a long rant against Benz when the new E-class comes with a 4-cylinder standard.... but I'm sure to you it will just be the bee-knees since they do no wrong.

 

 

Stop making excuses for the Germans doing things that you diss Cadillac for doing.

[smk4565]

I do fear the E-class will have a standard 4 cylinder, which to me sucks.  240 hp is fine in a C-class base model, but an E-class base model should have the C-class's optional engine.  I'd like to see the new inline six as the base E-class engine, of course add the turbo diesel and plug in hybrid 4 cylinders for the Eco crowd.   I want the E550 back too, but I fear they won't bring the V8 back.  I'm sure the quad turbo inline six will be great, but it's not a V8.

[Drew Dowdell]

I do fear the E-class will have a standard 4 cylinder, which to me sucks.  240 hp is fine in a C-class base model, but an E-class base model should have the C-class's optional engine.  I'd like to see the new inline six as the base E-class engine, of course add the turbo diesel and plug in hybrid 4 cylinders for the Eco crowd.   I want the E550 back too, but I fear they won't bring the V8 back.  I'm sure the quad turbo inline six will be great, but it's not a V8.

 

Actually, it would probably be smoother than a V8 and with stump ripping thrust.

[smk4565]

What looks like a threat is the BMW i5 sedan.  Mid size, 360 hp from 2 electric motors and it is supposed to weigh under 3,450 lbs.  You are better than the ideal 10 lbs per horsepower ratio and electric cars fly off the line.

[smk4565]

 

I do fear the E-class will have a standard 4 cylinder, which to me sucks.  240 hp is fine in a C-class base model, but an E-class base model should have the C-class's optional engine.  I'd like to see the new inline six as the base E-class engine, of course add the turbo diesel and plug in hybrid 4 cylinders for the Eco crowd.   I want the E550 back too, but I fear they won't bring the V8 back.  I'm sure the quad turbo inline six will be great, but it's not a V8.

 

Actually, it would probably be smoother than a V8 and with stump ripping thrust.

 

Oh I am sure it will be smoother than a V8, and get better gas mileage, but a V8 is just charismatic.  There is something more exciting about a V8.  Imagine a Corvette with a silky smooth, no vibration 450 hp inline six and no V8.  Yes it would be smooth and quiet, but probably not as exciting.

[Drew Dowdell]

 

 

I do fear the E-class will have a standard 4 cylinder, which to me sucks.  240 hp is fine in a C-class base model, but an E-class base model should have the C-class's optional engine.  I'd like to see the new inline six as the base E-class engine, of course add the turbo diesel and plug in hybrid 4 cylinders for the Eco crowd.   I want the E550 back too, but I fear they won't bring the V8 back.  I'm sure the quad turbo inline six will be great, but it's not a V8.

 

Actually, it would probably be smoother than a V8 and with stump ripping thrust.

 

Oh I am sure it will be smoother than a V8, and get better gas mileage, but a V8 is just charismatic.  There is something more exciting about a V8.  Imagine a Corvette with a silky smooth, no vibration 450 hp inline six and no V8.  Yes it would be smooth and quiet, but probably not as exciting.

 

 

You have a point, but the personality of the engine should match the personality of the car.  I see the E-Class as something that should deliver effortless power as silent and smoothly as possible.  Naturally, the Corvette should have a different feel. 

[balthazar]

Don't everybody miss that all those audi I4s are Volkswagon engines (IIRC).

 

Oh, so sad.

[smk4565]

I agree Drew on the E-class.  Even with my V8 you hardly hear it, it just delivers power and you don't notice because it is a bit of an isolated driving experience.  So in a lot of ways the inline six will probably suit the car better, and probably be faster with better fuel economy. 

 

I read something about VW pumping V8 sound into the Golf.  It is bad enough that these cars pump engine noise into the speakers to create some fake performance feel, now they are going to use sound from another car's engine?!?!  Terrible.  Why not just pump Lamborghini Aventator engine noise into the Golf, maybe add an external speaker also so people think your Golf has a high revving V12.

[balthazar]

Last time I drove an e-class it had terrible throttle & BRAKE lag, very disconcerting. I've read that commentary more than once since. I felt it was a borderline dangerous characteristic. Not impressed.

[smk4565]

Throttle tip in is really slow, but it makes the car not jumpy.  My brakes grab pretty well, but I also put Zimmerman drilled rotors on and Akebono Euro ceramic pads on.

[Drew Dowdell]

I agree Drew on the E-class.  Even with my V8 you hardly hear it, it just delivers power and you don't notice because it is a bit of an isolated driving experience.  So in a lot of ways the inline six will probably suit the car better, and probably be faster with better fuel economy. 

 

I read something about VW pumping V8 sound into the Golf.  It is bad enough that these cars pump engine noise into the speakers to create some fake performance feel, now they are going to use sound from another car's engine?!?!  Terrible.  Why not just pump Lamborghini Aventator engine noise into the Golf, maybe add an external speaker also so people think your Golf has a high revving V12.

 

If you're going to do that, at least let me download engine sounds like I can ringtones.   I want my car to sound like the warp core from the Enterprise..... or maybe the just restored N&W 611 Class-J.