CT8 to be First True Flagship in Modern Era

[ccap41]

What We KnowThe 2016 CT6 is not Cadillac’s flagship, General Motors product chief Mark Reuss says. That role will be given to an even larger rear-wheel-drive sedan coming within four years. While the Cadillac CT6 is a bit bigger than a short-wheelbase BMW 7 Series, we expect the so-called CT8 to be slightly larger than the long-wheelbase Mercedes-Benz S-Class. The CT8, like the CT6, will ride on the new Omega platform, which employs GM’s patented process for welding aluminum. If the CT6 is any guide, the CT8 will be hundreds of pounds lighter than the S-Class. But the CT8 will be more than a long-wheelbase version of the CT6. Its styling should be more stately and upright, and it should put greater emphasis on ride comfort than handling dynamics. Engine choices will likely include the CT6’s new twin-turbo, 3.0-liter V-6 and a naturally aspirated, 3.6-liter V-6. Also expect a new V-8 from the same engine family, perhaps a twin-turbo, 4.5-liter example that will make 500-plus horsepower, as hinted by the Cadillac Elmiraj show car. The transmission will be an eight-speed automatic, unless the new 10-speed GM is developing with Ford arrives in time.

Why It MattersAlthough it doesn’t show on sales charts, Cadillac is enjoying a renaissance thanks to new models that match or beat their BMW and Mercedes-Benz rivals on many metrics. The CT8 promises to take these advances even further, making this car worthy of a window sticker that reads $95,000 or higher. Expect the CT8 to come with all the technology, safety, and luxury features Cadillac can muster to take on the Mercedes S-Class as the standard-bearer in this segment. Just as important, a big, long CT8 will give Cadillac a much-needed status symbol, a car worthy of shuttling important business and government leaders to global conferences.

Potential PitfallsAs much as Cadillac has improved, it has yet to achieve Lexus-like overall quality or Audi-like interior execution. The CT8 must do both. Specifically, its new engines must idle more smoothly than the engines we’ve experienced in the ATS and CTS, and the CUE infotainment system must respond quicker to user inputs. Even if Cadillac achieves all this right out of the gate, GM will have to be patient, as the CT8 will not achieve Audi/BMW/Mercedes status overnight.

When to Expect ItSometime during calendar year 2019, possibly by spring, as a 2020 model.

 

http://www.automobilemag.com/features/magazine/1508-cadillac-ct8-will-be-the-brands-first-true-flagship-in-modern-era/

 

I hope I didn't quote too much but that really is all the little article was so I thought it wasn't worth cutting it down..

 

Anyway, just some more exciting news coming from one of our D3!

[balthazar]

I sure as hell hope the El Miraj styling isn't used in this class. It's not refined or advanced enough for 2015, never mind 2019 (not that styling advances that quickly at all).

Ciel body is the way to go in this segment; tweak the front fascia and it would be an absolute killer.

 

[smk4565]

I bet the success of the CT6 will impact the development budget for the CT8.  If the CT6 sales lag the first year or two, I wonder how much money they'll put into the CT8.

[El Kabong]

Seeing as how there were zero CT6-sized cars sold before they drafted the Omega's engineering budget, my answer would be: still quite a lot.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

If the 8 is counting on sales of the CT6, then I fear the worse for Cadillac.  

Unless customers completely look past the fact that the CTS is priced much less, and is not selling so easily.

[El Kabong]

Nonsense.

Excellence for the sake of excellence is a desirable thing. Leave the mediocrity to lesser automakers

[ccap41]

^ Sometimes just putting their name across multiple "classes" of cars will open enough eyes to realize what great products they are producing. Because pre CT6 why would anybody even look towards Cadillac as a top tier lux when they only stop at E Class sized vehicles and nothing more? Well when you double up on that you're doubling your audience too(okay the math isn't accurate but you get the jist of it).  Because even people who don't know cars or Mercedes much know when they see an S(Number) that it's a high end luxury car and then correlate that all the way down to their CLA. So just having it, I would think, would help out the rest of the lineup get recognition(well deserved, at that)

 

Sorry mine was directed at Wings.

Edited June 19, 2015 by ccap41

[surreal1272]

If the 8 is counting on sales of the CT6, then I fear the worse for Cadillac.  

Unless customers completely look past the fact that the CTS is priced much less, and is not selling so easily.

Different size and class of car. People don't look past the price of a S class and then buy an E-Class because it is so much cheaper and the same would apply to Cadillac if they do it right.

[cp-the-nerd]

I wish the CT6 had a little more flair in the front end design. There's much better differentiation between the ATS and CTS visually than between the CTS and CT6.

[G. David Felt]

I wish the CT6 had a little more flair in the front end design. There's much better differentiation between the ATS and CTS visually than between the CTS and CT6.

But if we follow the Mighty SMK who thinks MB is the worlds best then this is OK because the higher end models are not to be so bold in their design and more generically flowing.

[smk4565]

The CT6 is a fairly big car as it is, like 203 or 204 inches long.  I think what Cadillac will look at more is how the CT6 sells and at what price.  Because previous attempts at high dollar Cadillacs like the Allante, XLR, STS-V all flopped.  The Escalade is the only Cadillac with a base price over $48,000 to ever really sell.  If the CT6 is a hit, I think they'll put more money into the CT8, if the CT6 flops and sells 300 cars a month, how much money will they put into a bigger, more expensive car that will sell even less.

[balthazar]

300/mnth is an excellent sales goal for the CT6. 

Image cars often are built with a 'big picture' WRT profits.

[smk4565]

 

I wish the CT6 had a little more flair in the front end design. There's much better differentiation between the ATS and CTS visually than between the CTS and CT6.

But if we follow the Mighty SMK who thinks MB is the worlds best then this is OK because the higher end models are not to be so bold in their design and more generically flowing.

 

The S-class has always had a more elegant and classic design, that is what the car is about.  It isn't a shouty, obnoxious bling mobile.  If you want flair Mercedes made these:

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

The CT6 is a fairly big car as it is, like 203 or 204 inches long.  I think what Cadillac will look at more is how the CT6 sells and at what price.  Because previous attempts at high dollar Cadillacs like the Allante, XLR, STS-V all flopped.  The Escalade is the only Cadillac with a base price over $48,000 to ever really sell.  If the CT6 is a hit, I think they'll put more money into the CT8, if the CT6 flops and sells 300 cars a month, how much money will they put into a bigger, more expensive car that will sell even less.

Pretty much my sentiment exactly.

[balthazar]

s-class is bland on the exterior, stale even. 

[smk4565]

300/mnth is an excellent sales goal for the CT6. 

Image cars often are built with a 'big picture' WRT profits.

Suppose they get 300 a month here, 300 a month in China.  That is only 7200 cars a year, I don't know if that makes profit when the chassis underpins only that one model for now.  The turbo V6 could be scaled across other Cadillacs, so development cost on that shouldn't be too big a deal, but do they re-coup the chassis cost, and interior design cost, wind tunnel cost, certifications, advertising costs, etc at 7,000 global units a year?

[balthazar]

Immaterial if strong press & image-boosting is the result.

Periodic evaluation is always good practice, but Cadillac hopefully has moved beyond individual model accounting tables and is looking at the bigger picture now.

[smk4565]

Porsche spend $727,000 to build a 959, but sold it for $239,000.  They took the loss because it was a halo builder, and got them lots of press and let them sell more 911s and 928s and 944s, etc.  And it established Porsche up there with Ferrari and Lamborghini at the time.  On a sports car I think you can afford to lose money on production because you'll get media coverage and press for your brand.  I don't see a sedan being featured on all the TV shows, or ending up on t-shirts or bedroom wall posters the way a supercar would.

 

To use an analogy, Disney paid over a billion dollars to buy Star Wars.  Even if they don't recoup that in profit from the movies (which they probably will) they still have cartoons, toys, action figures, t-shirts, video games, etc to sell.  GM can't use the Omega platform anywhere else except for big Cadillacs (or a big expensive Buick), so the CT6 and CT8 can't really afford to be long term money losers.  Otherwise the bean counters won't authorize replacements.

[El Kabong]

300/mnth is an excellent sales goal for the CT6. 

Image cars often are built with a 'big picture' WRT profits.

Back in my old place there was a guy who absolutely hounded me on what I thought the CT6 would sell like. He thought that being a GM fan I would trot out some wildly inflated number that would be easy to pick holes in.

I will say here what I said there: in all likelihood it will sell in high four/low five figures annually. Sales numbers aren't going to come right away when you're pushing into these segments, because brand loyalties are too strong.

Anyways, when that guy read what I thought it would sell like he quieted down a bit and went back to trying to moderate the place. Which is a story for another day, possibly

[Cmicasa the Great]

I bet the success of the CT6 will impact the development budget for the CT8.  If the CT6 sales lag the first year or two, I wonder how much money they'll put into the CT8.

 

 

Its already been set in the allocated budget. The CT8 was gonna happen before the CT6 ever debuted,.. logical no? The naming scheme suggests it 4GodSake.

[Cmicasa the Great]

If the 8 is counting on sales of the CT6, then I fear the worse for Cadillac.  

Unless customers completely look past the fact that the CTS is priced much less, and is not selling so easily.

 

 

be honest.. everything in U wants the CT6 to fail. 

 

Hey Goof.. why the hell does the sales of one car mean anything to the customers seeking another car in another segment? The 1series had deplorable sales.. yet it never seem to effect the 3series sales

[Cmicasa the Great]

I wish the CT6 had a little more flair in the front end design. There's much better differentiation between the ATS and CTS visually than between the CTS and CT6.

 

I see a different car

 

 

Edited June 19, 2015 by Cmicasa the Great

[Cmicasa the Great]

 

300/mnth is an excellent sales goal for the CT6. 

Image cars often are built with a 'big picture' WRT profits.

Back in my old place there was a guy who absolutely hounded me on what I thought the CT6 would sell like. He thought that being a GM fan I would trot out some wildly inflated number that would be easy to pick holes in.

I will say here what I said there: in all likelihood it will sell in high four/low five figures annually. Sales numbers aren't going to come right away when you're pushing into these segments, because brand loyalties are too strong.

Anyways, when that guy read what I thought it would sell like he quieted down a bit and went back to trying to moderate the place. Which is a story for another day, possibly

 

 

 

U are talking about that dweeb Dequindre over at Motor Trend forum who is a Mod.. and also posts at GMI pretending to love GM but constantly talking $h! about it and boosting up Ford. He usually has a Lincoln avatar like the one Wings has in his avy right now. I think they might be the same guy..

 

I predict 700 out the gate.. possibly more. Cadillac for the most part mimics Audi sales at the moment. The A8 sells about 700 a month

[Cmicasa the Great]

The CT6 is a fairly big car as it is, like 203 or 204 inches long.  I think what Cadillac will look at more is how the CT6 sells and at what price.  Because previous attempts at high dollar Cadillacs like the Allante, XLR, STS-V all flopped.  The Escalade is the only Cadillac with a base price over $48,000 to ever really sell.  If the CT6 is a hit, I think they'll put more money into the CT8, if the CT6 flops and sells 300 cars a month, how much money will they put into a bigger, more expensive car that will sell even less.

 

 

Go back and look at the facts. The Allante and XLR flopped because Cadillac.. or rather GM lost interest and never.. not once really updated these cars after the first year. The XLR was on a C5 platform... even after the C6 debuted. The STS-V didn't flop.. GM changed course in the midst of a BK.. a great deal of programs got moved. The STS lives.. as the CTS and CTS-V

[El Kabong]

The ALLANTE?

We're going back thirty years to pick holes in Cadillac?

Ok then... Why don't we make fun of BMW for doing a drop-door Z1? Or Mercedes for their 134hp five-banger diesel in an S-Class?

Talk about grasping at straws. Yeesh

[smk4565]

I know they are doing the CT8 no matter what, I think the CT6 will need some success for them to make the CT8 really good. It isn't like GM hasn't half-assed a product before just to get it out there.   They could lengthen the CT6 by 6 inches and change the front and rear facias and pass it off as a new model if they wanted.  I don't think that is what Cadillac will do, but they could if they wanted to be cheap.

[balthazar]

And BMW could stretch a 5-series 6 inches and call it a 7…. whoops.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

 

The CT6 is a fairly big car as it is, like 203 or 204 inches long.  I think what Cadillac will look at more is how the CT6 sells and at what price.  Because previous attempts at high dollar Cadillacs like the Allante, XLR, STS-V all flopped.  The Escalade is the only Cadillac with a base price over $48,000 to ever really sell.  If the CT6 is a hit, I think they'll put more money into the CT8, if the CT6 flops and sells 300 cars a month, how much money will they put into a bigger, more expensive car that will sell even less.

 

 

Go back and look at the facts. The Allante and XLR flopped because Cadillac.. or rather GM lost interest and never.. not once really updated these cars after the first year. The XLR was on a C5 platform... even after the C6 debuted. The STS-V didn't flop.. GM changed course in the midst of a BK.. a great deal of programs got moved. The STS lives.. as the CTS and CTS-V

 

 What you just described wreaked of little more than a playful and experimental series of new flavors of product by a generous and forward thinking brand, but the reality most know is that Cadillac is not gaining any traction in it's many failed experimental attempts at a ultra premium product.  That is why we are wondering about the 8.  And it is a valid concern, as we witness the CTS struggling currently without adequate incentive, as they prepare a very similar CT6 that is even more costlier.

[El Kabong]

*sigh*

...as we all know, Cadillac's sales woes aren't reason to throw up one's hands and quit. That's what lesser automakers do. The Alpha platform will be profitable, so Cadillac was wise to procure it. Choosing to ignore the obvious does not make the obvious go away :D

And speaking of ignoring the obvious... here's a superb example of what happens when you try to make prime rib out of hamburger, courtesy of Dearborn Motor Company:

http://m.caranddriver.com/reviews/2015-lincoln-mkc-20t-fwd-test-review

...wow. Now THERE'S some damning with faint praise. "Competent pod." Maybe they'll get it right someday. But clearly not today.

Sheesh

Edited June 20, 2015 by El Kabong

[Cmicasa the Great]

 

 

The CT6 is a fairly big car as it is, like 203 or 204 inches long.  I think what Cadillac will look at more is how the CT6 sells and at what price.  Because previous attempts at high dollar Cadillacs like the Allante, XLR, STS-V all flopped.  The Escalade is the only Cadillac with a base price over $48,000 to ever really sell.  If the CT6 is a hit, I think they'll put more money into the CT8, if the CT6 flops and sells 300 cars a month, how much money will they put into a bigger, more expensive car that will sell even less.

 

 

Go back and look at the facts. The Allante and XLR flopped because Cadillac.. or rather GM lost interest and never.. not once really updated these cars after the first year. The XLR was on a C5 platform... even after the C6 debuted. The STS-V didn't flop.. GM changed course in the midst of a BK.. a great deal of programs got moved. The STS lives.. as the CTS and CTS-V

 

 What you just described wreaked of little more than a playful and experimental series of new flavors of product by a generous and forward thinking brand, but the reality most know is that Cadillac is not gaining any traction in it's many failed experimental attempts at a ultra premium product.  That is why we are wondering about the 8.  And it is a valid concern, as we witness the CTS struggling currently without adequate incentive, as they prepare a very similar CT6 that is even more costlier.

 

 

 

There in lies the problem.. I have looked at the numbers and voiced my reasons of WHY the CTS, arguably the best in its class.. the ATS.. arguably the best in its class.. are struggling in the sales race. I have said it time and time again. Sales are not the gauge of failure unless sales are the only thing one looks to achieve. Cadillac is in the middle of its first real attempt at taking on the leaders in the field. This is in both material and perception. Sales numbers are a gauge of success in the mainstream, more so in the Luxury segment. Personally I am not one who gets excited when they see another Cadillac pulling up resembling mine. I enjoy the inadvertent exclusivity. If I were a 3series owner who bought for the sake of luxury, or exclusivity I'd be pissed. Hell part of the reason why I was OK with getting rid of my Camaro was because I started seeing them too often.

 

 To your point about not gaining traction... Cadillac has already jumped the first, second, and third hurdle. Cadillac is simply better at more things than the German rivals these days. The areas where it lags are fixable, and consistently coming, building.. moving forward. Point blank we are not talking about Lincoln here,, or Lexus. The issues with Cadillac normally can be summed up in lack of marketing, lack of product, and a reluctance to, up til recently, Dare Greatly. CUE is fixed. The larger backseat is coming in 2 years.. not that its a concern to me. Escalade, ATS/ CTS-V, and CT6 will prime the world for the CT8. 

 

Anyone thinking that this would be a quick fix hasn't looked at the reality of things for a long time. Cadillac isn't just battling within the realm of the segment, but battling within the automotive industry because of its origin. The entire brand actually is a mimic of the Corvette. 95% better than the foreign exotics competition, but marred and historically held back because of where it originated. I hope Cadillac simply builds the better car... 

[Cmicasa the Great]

*sigh*

...as we all know, Cadillac's sales woes aren't reason to throw up one's hands and quit. That's what lesser automakers do. The Alpha platform will be profitable, so Cadillac was wise to procure it. Choosing to ignore the obvious does not make the obvious go away :D

And speaking of ignoring the obvious... here's a superb example of what happens when you try to make prime rib out of hamburger, courtesy of Dearborn Motor Company:

http://m.caranddriver.com/reviews/2015-lincoln-mkc-20t-fwd-test-review

...wow. Now THERE'S some damning with faint praise. "Competent pod." Maybe they'll get it right someday. But clearly not today.

Sheesh

 

 

Speaking of the Alpha platform... did U read that the Camaro Convertible is ready for debut? Proof positive if what I mean by product issues. The ATS is 3 years in .. and no convertible. Camaro hasn't even hit the roads yet. WTF???

[Cmicasa the Great]

I know they are doing the CT8 no matter what, I think the CT6 will need some success for them to make the CT8 really good. It isn't like GM hasn't half-assed a product before just to get it out there.   They could lengthen the CT6 by 6 inches and change the front and rear facias and pass it off as a new model if they wanted.  I don't think that is what Cadillac will do, but they could if they wanted to be cheap.

 

 

The thing is that CT6, at the moment, with its amenities, innovations, take on the segment, I see no real reason to believe that the car is "half-assed." I realize that U were not specifically calling this car one, but the truth is that some on these forums are because Cadillac is not calling it an S-Class competitor. Lets look at this from a state of realism tho. The CT6 is coming off as a 7series, XJ, A8, and LS competitor. It is seemingly a 95% S-Class like the aforementioned vehicles. None of them have "CT8s" on the horizon that I kno of. Point is, if the CT6 is damn near there already... where is the CT8 gonna be in terms of position?

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

 

 

 

The CT6 is a fairly big car as it is, like 203 or 204 inches long.  I think what Cadillac will look at more is how the CT6 sells and at what price.  Because previous attempts at high dollar Cadillacs like the Allante, XLR, STS-V all flopped.  The Escalade is the only Cadillac with a base price over $48,000 to ever really sell.  If the CT6 is a hit, I think they'll put more money into the CT8, if the CT6 flops and sells 300 cars a month, how much money will they put into a bigger, more expensive car that will sell even less.

 

 

Go back and look at the facts. The Allante and XLR flopped because Cadillac.. or rather GM lost interest and never.. not once really updated these cars after the first year. The XLR was on a C5 platform... even after the C6 debuted. The STS-V didn't flop.. GM changed course in the midst of a BK.. a great deal of programs got moved. The STS lives.. as the CTS and CTS-V

 

 What you just described wreaked of little more than a playful and experimental series of new flavors of product by a generous and forward thinking brand, but the reality most know is that Cadillac is not gaining any traction in it's many failed experimental attempts at a ultra premium product.  That is why we are wondering about the 8.  And it is a valid concern, as we witness the CTS struggling currently without adequate incentive, as they prepare a very similar CT6 that is even more costlier.

 

 

 

There in lies the problem.. I have looked at the numbers and voiced my reasons of WHY the CTS, arguably the best in its class.. the ATS.. arguably the best in its class.. are struggling in the sales race. I have said it time and time again. Sales are not the gauge of failure unless sales are the only thing one looks to achieve. Cadillac is in the middle of its first real attempt at taking on the leaders in the field. This is in both material and perception. Sales numbers are a gauge of success in the mainstream, more so in the Luxury segment. Personally I am not one who gets excited when they see another Cadillac pulling up resembling mine. I enjoy the inadvertent exclusivity. If I were a 3series owner who bought for the sake of luxury, or exclusivity I'd be pissed. Hell part of the reason why I was OK with getting rid of my Camaro was because I started seeing them too often.

 

 To your point about not gaining traction... Cadillac has already jumped the first, second, and third hurdle. Cadillac is simply better at more things than the German rivals these days. The areas where it lags are fixable, and consistently coming, building.. moving forward. Point blank we are not talking about Lincoln here,, or Lexus. The issues with Cadillac normally can be summed up in lack of marketing, lack of product, and a reluctance to, up til recently, Dare Greatly. CUE is fixed. The larger backseat is coming in 2 years.. not that its a concern to me. Escalade, ATS/ CTS-V, and CT6 will prime the world for the CT8. 

 

Anyone thinking that this would be a quick fix hasn't looked at the reality of things for a long time. Cadillac isn't just battling within the realm of the segment, but battling within the automotive industry because of its origin. The entire brand actually is a mimic of the Corvette. 95% better than the foreign exotics competition, but marred and historically held back because of where it originated. I hope Cadillac simply builds the better car... 

 

I do appreciate your words casa, and I have certainly always appreciated your passion for GM and especially Cadillac.  Unlike some who like to piss on such passion calling it names, I have always embraced it, although in a different flavor for me personally, and I know you know this. And it is very difficult to counter your words above, which are mostly and essentially excellent points as we all know them to logically be.  So then, maybe it will be little more than a long road to get there.   And I do in fact wish them success and I also know you know that I cheer American first.  

 

So,

 

that all said, I will watch with great anticipation and excitement as yet another extreme fan, where our respective favorite luxury brands go in the coming years and just how customers receive them. I think times have changed a plenty, with respect to segment preference (CUV vs sedan), technology, brand image and of course, style preference. Which simply means, IMO, that in an era where people are more impressed with an iwatch than they are a Rolex, that we should expect the unexpected. I think these sort of disruptions in the norm are finding their way into luxury class as well.  And lets face it, luxury today is found everywhere, including Korean brands for Pete's sake, so the lines are also blurred and everywhere to step over.  

 

Here is what I know for sure.  There is not set formula. A smart luxury brand needs to look forward like a unique startup, and question everything and consider everything.  Chasing one formula, literally letter for letter, does not guarantee success.

[El Kabong]

The CT6 is a fairly big car as it is, like 203 or 204 inches long. I think what Cadillac will look at more is how the CT6 sells and at what price. Because previous attempts at high dollar Cadillacs like the Allante, XLR, STS-V all flopped. The Escalade is the only Cadillac with a base price over $48,000 to ever really sell. If the CT6 is a hit, I think they'll put more money into the CT8, if the CT6 flops and sells 300 cars a month, how much money will they put into a bigger, more expensive car that will sell even less.

Go back and look at the facts. The Allante and XLR flopped because Cadillac.. or rather GM lost interest and never.. not once really updated these cars after the first year. The XLR was on a C5 platform... even after the C6 debuted. The STS-V didn't flop.. GM changed course in the midst of a BK.. a great deal of programs got moved. The STS lives.. as the CTS and CTS-V

What you just described wreaked of little more than a playful and experimental series of new flavors of product by a generous and forward thinking brand, but the reality most know is that Cadillac is not gaining any traction in it's many failed experimental attempts at a ultra premium product. That is why we are wondering about the 8. And it is a valid concern, as we witness the CTS struggling currently without adequate incentive, as they prepare a very similar CT6 that is even more costlier.

There in lies the problem.. I have looked at the numbers and voiced my reasons of WHY the CTS, arguably the best in its class.. the ATS.. arguably the best in its class.. are struggling in the sales race. I have said it time and time again. Sales are not the gauge of failure unless sales are the only thing one looks to achieve. Cadillac is in the middle of its first real attempt at taking on the leaders in the field. This is in both material and perception. Sales numbers are a gauge of success in the mainstream, more so in the Luxury segment. Personally I am not one who gets excited when they see another Cadillac pulling up resembling mine. I enjoy the inadvertent exclusivity. If I were a 3series owner who bought for the sake of luxury, or exclusivity I'd be pissed. Hell part of the reason why I was OK with getting rid of my Camaro was because I started seeing them too often.

To your point about not gaining traction... Cadillac has already jumped the first, second, and third hurdle. Cadillac is simply better at more things than the German rivals these days. The areas where it lags are fixable, and consistently coming, building.. moving forward. Point blank we are not talking about Lincoln here,, or Lexus. The issues with Cadillac normally can be summed up in lack of marketing, lack of product, and a reluctance to, up til recently, Dare Greatly. CUE is fixed. The larger backseat is coming in 2 years.. not that its a concern to me. Escalade, ATS/ CTS-V, and CT6 will prime the world for the CT8.

Anyone thinking that this would be a quick fix hasn't looked at the reality of things for a long time. Cadillac isn't just battling within the realm of the segment, but battling within the automotive industry because of its origin. The entire brand actually is a mimic of the Corvette. 95% better than the foreign exotics competition, but marred and historically held back because of where it originated. I hope Cadillac simply builds the better car...

Precisely. And I read your comments about the ATS droptop not being ready to go whereas the Camaro droptop is. All I'd say to that is that the Camaro isn't going on sale for a few months yet, and it's possible that the ATS is further along in its development than GM is letting on. Otherwise... ya, bit frustrating.

The bottom line for me is that Cadillac's efforts, while not being as all-encompassing as they should be product-wise, are worthy of respect. Bluntly put, respect is earned through honest effort, and some would do well to clue in to this ASAP. Nobody cares about mailed-in efforts anymore, and nobody who knowingly trumpets them is worthy of a serious hearing.

Edited June 20, 2015 by El Kabong

[hyperv6]

First off we need to step back here and understand this is the first of the new Cadillac cars done by people from the segment that it is intended for. Too long Cadillac has had people running things that were not of the global society segment. Today Cadillac now has people in charge with international taste and luxury backgrounds.

 

The first step is for dramatic and compelling design and I do not mean polarizing A&E hard lines. Cadillac has done well with A&E to attract attention but today they need to attract buyers. Nothing sells a car better than a design well done. Cadillac already has the mechanical pretty much right and even the interiors are nearly spot on accept for the Cue that is now having it's interphase sorted out.

 

First off I would not expect what is in the photo here as they are basing it on a car that was a show car and will be about 6-7 years old by production time. It may hold elements of their direction but do not expect a Elmirage sedan.

 

We also need to stop using the CT6 as a measuring stick. The CT6 is much like the XTS and a car to advance Cadillac but yet does not represent the future of Cadillac as it is the last of the old regime.  The division made it clear that the CT6 was no longer a flag ship but they were not in a position to say it was no longer the future of Cadillac at this point. So at this point the CT6 is only here to advance Cadillac and do no harm but it is not where all this is going anymore.

 

Now back to design. GM needs to make this as I have said a compelling car that makes you feel it inside when you look at it. Returning to the hard lines of the A&E are not going to do that as they are so very polarizing. They need a well done, stylish model that uses nothing from Benz, Audi and BMW in the design. It must remain true to itself. It also may do away with some hallmarks that have defined Cadillac but yet it  must still be recognized as a Cadillac even if it had no emblems.

 

It must be loaded with the highest quality materials of a nature we have not seen at GM for years. No more lowest bidder contracted parts. It also mush have the highest standards of quality and reliability. technology must be relevant, sorted and on the leading edge. In the past they have been leading edge but never well sorted in cases like the 8-6-4 and night vision.

 

The CT8 must show case the new Cadillac engines too. This will help set them apart. It must be powerful but not necessarily a sport sedan by any means as that will be left to the AT 4-5-6.

 

Benz has been the car of kings. Porsche has racing heritage what does Cadillac have. They do have a extensive history as the best car of the 30's and 40's that survived. They did it on many of the things I pointed out above. They can fall back on some of their history to show where they once were and where they are returning to.

 

The Cadillac that I feel sums up the future of Cadillac is the 1936 Worlds Fair Series 90 Aero-Dynamic Coupe Style 5859 Fleetwood look it up. I have seen this car inside and out and it was to 1936 what the 2020 CT8 needs to be. It held all these points I have made and was the panicle of Cadillac's history. It was advance but not polarizing, It was dramatic with out being silly. It has flow to the design and with the grill was not mistaken for anything but a Cadillac. It also held the most advanced engineering of the day. It was a no compromise car.

 

This kind of lighting was man made and can once again be captured in a Bottle or in this case sheet mental and Aluminum.

To be the standard you must set the standard. No more bench marking and meeting the standard it must be exceeded.

 

On another not anyone notice the Autoweek issue where they held a fantasy camp with some of the best sport sedans in the world. The cars all competed and the winner by a large margin was the ATSV. Most all were very shocked and impressed on how well the car performed in all situations track or road. Many stated they would love to own one. I hope Cadillac uses this in their marketing. This is proof if they can get ass's behind the wheel they can convert many buyers. At this point they cried wolf so many times people just do not realize where we are today. Even some true Cadillac fans here who have not driven a CTS or ATS today have no idea we finally have the real thing. Perfect no but well on the way to becoming what they always aspired to be.

By the way the next 5 years will encompass product that will advance Cadillac and do no harm but the real change will be the CT8 as it will be the first model of the true future. Till then the rest is clean up on what those who are no longer there have done.

[El Kabong]

Awesome post, man. "Dare Greatly" summarized to a tee.

[hyperv6]

Casa Cadillac has made many  more direction changes and have yet to get their sedans even where they need to be. A very limited Convertible would be nice but have so little impact till they get the rest of the line ready. The fact is people may come in to look at the convertible but leave with a reality sedan most times.

The Camaro is well advanced and established as the segment leader and is a well established coupe model on a single model. At Cadillac there is so much more that is needed before we worry about a car that may sell less than 3,000 units.

 

Priorities and good solid product comes before the niche products.

[hyperv6]

I still go back to the old Saturday Night Evening Post ad for my inspiration.

"The Penalty Of Leadership"

 

I gave it to my boss a German car enthusiast and he even had it framed and hung on his office wall. Read it if not familiar. It was the Dare Greatly of 100 years ago.

[smk4565]

 

 

 

Speaking of the Alpha platform... did U read that the Camaro Convertible is ready for debut? Proof positive if what I mean by product issues. The ATS is 3 years in .. and no convertible. Camaro hasn't even hit the roads yet. WTF???

 

It shows GM's own lack of faith in Cadillac.  GM knows they can sell pick ups, large SUVs, and crossovers like no other, and they have had success with Camaro and Corvette.  I believe in GM's weird way of thinking, if the ATS/CTS sedans aren't hot sellers, they don't deserve more body styles.  And they don't realize that not having a coupe or convertible hurts sales.  Or if Cadillac sales are low, spend less on marketing, and pump the advertising dollars into trucks. 

 

The money has always flowed to vehicles that had past success, not necessary where future success will lie.  In the early 2000s, when crossovers started to get hot and the Cam/Cord were hot, GM put money into Hummer, the GMT360 trucks, then around 2005 poured it into  GMT900s.  Meanwhile their cars soldiered on using the W-body and 3800 from the 80s, and became hopelessly uncompetitive, they ignored hybrids while the Prius was a success, they ignored small cars, then we know what happened in 2009.

Edited June 20, 2015 by smk4565

[El Kabong]

That makes no sense. The CTS has always fought an uphill battle saleswise but here it is in Generation 3. Conversely, the Corvette has had its budget kiboshed several times in its history despite always selling in absurdly high numbers relative to its competition.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

*sigh*

...as we all know, Cadillac's sales woes aren't reason to throw up one's hands and quit. That's what lesser automakers do. The Alpha platform will be profitable, so Cadillac was wise to procure it. Choosing to ignore the obvious does not make the obvious go away :D

And speaking of ignoring the obvious... here's a superb example of what happens when you try to make prime rib out of hamburger, courtesy of Dearborn Motor Company:

http://m.caranddriver.com/reviews/2015-lincoln-mkc-20t-fwd-test-review

...wow. Now THERE'S some damning with faint praise. "Competent pod." Maybe they'll get it right someday. But clearly not today.

Sheesh

I keep having to check what the topic is in your posts, because you obsess over Lincoln so much.

FYI, this is a Cadillac thread.

 

ummkay

[hyperv6]

SMK  you have to consider what has and is taking place.

#1 GM had no money so we had the W for way too long.

 

#2 The CUV and SUV segments have been hotter than hot and the CUV has passed up the best selling car the sedan in volume last year.

It is not the lack of confidence but the allocation of money and man power to where the greatest return is.

 

People today love the CUV and it will continue to grow. Cadillac will have two new ones soon and both will make more many than anything else they could put fourth.

 

No one ignored hybrids but with the expense involved and the lack of money it was hard to invest. Now GM is on the other side we have seen a major growth of them in GM and it will continue. They are years ahead of Chrysler who had as none and Ford who have a few but none that are all that exciting.

 

Coupe and convertible sales are niche anymore and while it will be nice to have them later you must first face the needed product you need to generate revenue and maximize profits with allocation of man power to projects that will proved the capital that will help produce these fun segment products.

I love how people scream about diesels, Wagons, Coupes and Convertibles but seldom factor in the numbers sold and profits realized. The fact is these are added profits not profit centers and are secondary concerns. Fix the profit centers first and the rest will come.

 

Build smart and your head not your heart.

[El Kabong]

And BMW could stretch a 5-series 6 inches and call it a 7…. whoops.

wings: as this fine gentleman shows, there's nothing wrong with providing examples from other automakers to highlight what Cadillac's doing. Or perhaps it's the generally negative review that has your undies in a bunch. Zero concern regardless.

Now: onward!

Edited June 20, 2015 by El Kabong

[Cmicasa the Great]

 

 

 

 

The CT6 is a fairly big car as it is, like 203 or 204 inches long.  I think what Cadillac will look at more is how the CT6 sells and at what price.  Because previous attempts at high dollar Cadillacs like the Allante, XLR, STS-V all flopped.  The Escalade is the only Cadillac with a base price over $48,000 to ever really sell.  If the CT6 is a hit, I think they'll put more money into the CT8, if the CT6 flops and sells 300 cars a month, how much money will they put into a bigger, more expensive car that will sell even less.

 

 

Go back and look at the facts. The Allante and XLR flopped because Cadillac.. or rather GM lost interest and never.. not once really updated these cars after the first year. The XLR was on a C5 platform... even after the C6 debuted. The STS-V didn't flop.. GM changed course in the midst of a BK.. a great deal of programs got moved. The STS lives.. as the CTS and CTS-V

 

 What you just described wreaked of little more than a playful and experimental series of new flavors of product by a generous and forward thinking brand, but the reality most know is that Cadillac is not gaining any traction in it's many failed experimental attempts at a ultra premium product.  That is why we are wondering about the 8.  And it is a valid concern, as we witness the CTS struggling currently without adequate incentive, as they prepare a very similar CT6 that is even more costlier.

 

 

 

There in lies the problem.. I have looked at the numbers and voiced my reasons of WHY the CTS, arguably the best in its class.. the ATS.. arguably the best in its class.. are struggling in the sales race. I have said it time and time again. Sales are not the gauge of failure unless sales are the only thing one looks to achieve. Cadillac is in the middle of its first real attempt at taking on the leaders in the field. This is in both material and perception. Sales numbers are a gauge of success in the mainstream, more so in the Luxury segment. Personally I am not one who gets excited when they see another Cadillac pulling up resembling mine. I enjoy the inadvertent exclusivity. If I were a 3series owner who bought for the sake of luxury, or exclusivity I'd be pissed. Hell part of the reason why I was OK with getting rid of my Camaro was because I started seeing them too often.

 

 To your point about not gaining traction... Cadillac has already jumped the first, second, and third hurdle. Cadillac is simply better at more things than the German rivals these days. The areas where it lags are fixable, and consistently coming, building.. moving forward. Point blank we are not talking about Lincoln here,, or Lexus. The issues with Cadillac normally can be summed up in lack of marketing, lack of product, and a reluctance to, up til recently, Dare Greatly. CUE is fixed. The larger backseat is coming in 2 years.. not that its a concern to me. Escalade, ATS/ CTS-V, and CT6 will prime the world for the CT8. 

 

Anyone thinking that this would be a quick fix hasn't looked at the reality of things for a long time. Cadillac isn't just battling within the realm of the segment, but battling within the automotive industry because of its origin. The entire brand actually is a mimic of the Corvette. 95% better than the foreign exotics competition, but marred and historically held back because of where it originated. I hope Cadillac simply builds the better car... 

 

I do appreciate your words casa, and I have certainly always appreciated your passion for GM and especially Cadillac.  Unlike some who like to piss on such passion calling it names, I have always embraced it, although in a different flavor for me personally, and I know you know this. And it is very difficult to counter your words above, which are mostly and essentially excellent points as we all know them to logically be.  So then, maybe it will be little more than a long road to get there.   And I do in fact wish them success and I also know you know that I cheer American first.  

 

So,

 

that all said, I will watch with great anticipation and excitement as yet another extreme fan, where our respective favorite luxury brands go in the coming years and just how customers receive them. I think times have changed a plenty, with respect to segment preference (CUV vs sedan), technology, brand image and of course, style preference. Which simply means, IMO, that in an era where people are more impressed with an iwatch than they are a Rolex, that we should expect the unexpected. I think these sort of disruptions in the norm are finding their way into luxury class as well.  And lets face it, luxury today is found everywhere, including Korean brands for Pete's sake, so the lines are also blurred and everywhere to step over.  

 

Here is what I know for sure.  There is not set formula. A smart luxury brand needs to look forward like a unique startup, and question everything and consider everything.  Chasing one formula, literally letter for letter, does not guarantee success.

 

 

 

I think the CT6 is the epitome of NOT chasing a uniform formula. The CTS and ATS certainly looked at BMW in terms of performance and handling.. but they both are more luxurious than either the 3series or 5series. 

[smk4565]

SMK  you have to consider what has and is taking place.

#1 GM had no money so we had the W for way too long.

 

#2 The CUV and SUV segments have been hotter than hot and the CUV has passed up the best selling car the sedan in volume last year.

It is not the lack of confidence but the allocation of money and man power to where the greatest return is.

But 15 years ago Toyota was building the Prius, Highlander, Rav4, and Lexus RX.  Those were already on market when GM decided to put money and man power into Hummer, Chevy SSR truck, and Bravada/Trailblazer/Envoy.  Because crossovers were hot we got half-assed products like the Aztec and Rendezvous built off a minivan platform (and a poor van at that), the Equinox went on sale in 2005, 10 years after the Rav4.  The Traverse went on sale nearly 7 years after the Highlander and Pilot went on sale.

 

GM made it's money in the late 90s on trucks, Ford made it's money on the Explorer and F150, so GM of course thought to keep putting money into trucks.  Toyota put their money into crossovers and hybrids in the late 90s because they saw it was  the future.  I'm not saying Cadillac coupes are the future, but GM will allocate money to the products and segments that paid yesterday's bills, rather than trying to predict what will sell tomorrow.

[Cmicasa the Great]

First off we need to step back here and understand this is the first of the new Cadillac cars done by people from the segment that it is intended for. Too long Cadillac has had people running things that were not of the global society segment. Today Cadillac now has people in charge with international taste and luxury backgrounds.

 

The first step is for dramatic and compelling design and I do not mean polarizing A&E hard lines. Cadillac has done well with A&E to attract attention but today they need to attract buyers. Nothing sells a car better than a design well done. Cadillac already has the mechanical pretty much right and even the interiors are nearly spot on accept for the Cue that is now having it's interphase sorted out.

 

 

Granted.. I agree. Accept the term of "A&E" when it is A&S. MAybe U were typing from a auto-correcting cell phone. Not sure. The part about "international taste and luxury backgrounds" absolutely spot on.. Johan and Uwe are picked form the best time of Audi and BMW respectively. I have a great deal of faith in them.. .and Reuss, Ammann, and Barra allowing them the go head to do what must be done. Johan at the onset of his leadership stated to dealers that sales would drop.. before they rose.. certain people constantly use that as a measure of success.. this is false. Cadillac above all else has regained its claim to the segment. The ATS, CTS, CT6, Escalade, even SRX and XTS.. cohesively are solidifying its return to Tier one. 

 

CORRECTION of my original post: Sales are a gauge of success in the mainstream, NOT so in the luxury segment. (I was on my phone when I typed it and somehow autotype made the word MORE instead of NOT)

 

 

First off I would not expect what is in the photo here as they are basing it on a car that was a show car and will be about 6-7 years old by production time. It may hold elements of their direction but do not expect a Elmirage sedan.

 

I hope to hell that no one here is using that photoshopped MESS as a look see of what the CT8 will look like. It will more likely look like the Ciel, with the CT7 coupe looking like the El Miraj

 

 

 

We also need to stop using the CT6 as a measuring stick. The CT6 is much like the XTS and a car to advance Cadillac but yet does not represent the future of Cadillac as it is the last of the old regime.  The division made it clear that the CT6 was no longer a flag ship but they were not in a position to say it was no longer the future of Cadillac at this point. So at this point the CT6 is only here to advance Cadillac and do no harm but it is not where all this is going anymore.

 

Now back to design. GM needs to make this as I have said a compelling car that makes you feel it inside when you look at it. Returning to the hard lines of the A&E are not going to do that as they are so very polarizing. They need a well done, stylish model that uses nothing from Benz, Audi and BMW in the design. It must remain true to itself. It also may do away with some hallmarks that have defined Cadillac but yet it  must still be recognized as a Cadillac even if it had no emblems.

 

It must be loaded with the highest quality materials of a nature we have not seen at GM for years. No more lowest bidder contracted parts. It also mush have the highest standards of quality and reliability. technology must be relevant, sorted and on the leading edge. In the past they have been leading edge but never well sorted in cases like the 8-6-4 and night vision.

 

The CT8 must show case the new Cadillac engines too. This will help set them apart. It must be powerful but not necessarily a sport sedan by any means as that will be left to the AT 4-5-6.

 

Why not use it as the measuring stick. It is tangible. It is a masterful effort.. blending technology, stateliness, and strong presence to create a vehicle anyone looking for a large luxo should be proud of. This is NOT a rehash of the Fritz Henderson/Brian Nesbit compromise of the XTS... a great car in its own right. This is ground up build of a 204inch, 3600lb, culmination of Art and Science. I'm betting that the CT8 will be a slightly larger, tweaked design of the Ciel with a few more trimming over the CT6. That's saying something. BTW.. the CTS and CT6 are tweaked versions of the Ciel's design. 

Edited June 20, 2015 by Cmicasa the Great

[El Kabong]

smk: still not following you. GM doesn't have bills from yesterday-that's what '08 was all about. And their investment in their trucks, while sizeable, pales with that of, say, Ford.

Edited June 20, 2015 by El Kabong

[Cmicasa the Great]

Casa Cadillac has made many  more direction changes and have yet to get their sedans even where they need to be. A very limited Convertible would be nice but have so little impact till they get the rest of the line ready. The fact is people may come in to look at the convertible but leave with a reality sedan most times.

The Camaro is well advanced and established as the segment leader and is a well established coupe model on a single model. At Cadillac there is so much more that is needed before we worry about a car that may sell less than 3,000 units.

 

Priorities and good solid product comes before the niche products.

 

 

Priorities are holding the car back. The ATS must come with the same hardware as its 5 most immediate competitors or it instantly loses a sale here.. a sale there. A Convertible at GM, other than at Chevy, should have been numero uno thought when the Alpha Platform was created. With the new Camaro already getting a convertible, it is proof positive that the Alpha platform can accommodate a ragtop. No way in hell a Camaro should have that option and the Flagship brand at GM doesn't have one to speak of in its entire line-up. Mercedes has a convertible C-Class, Eclass, SLK, SL, and S-Class coming. BMW has a convertible Z, 4series, and 6 series, Audi has an A5 Vert, R8, and TT.. Lexus and Infiniti even have a convertible in their entry level vehicle.. not one from the entirely of GM except at Chevy.. which are niche sports coupes mostly geared towards MEN.. the lower car buying demographic.

'

AT CADILLAC.. 3000 sales are just a piece of the puzzle that needs to be put together sure.. but most importantly it is a PIECE. No sale should be loss due to lack of product.  

[Cmicasa the Great]

 

Coupe and convertible sales are niche anymore and while it will be nice to have them later you must first face the needed product you need to generate revenue and maximize profits with allocation of man power to projects that will proved the capital that will help produce these fun segment products.

 

 

And that's the thing.. the needed product is actually here are coming soon. The ATS and CTS are the foundation of what is coming. They are the building blocks. The suggestion to include a convertible, coupe and wagon aren't about just wanting product for the sake of product.. but covering niche avenues without even having to invest heavily in multiple cars to boost sales and profits. The ATS and CTS should encompass 3 other vehicles within their own branding. There should be a CTS, CTS, CTE, and conversely a CTS-V, CTC-V, and CTE-V.. on top of that.. a CTX (CUV) wash, rinse, repeat for the ATS.

 

How does one get 13,000 3/4series sales? By having product avail for consumption. 

 

I've used this example to death.. but I Love Cadillac.. HATE foreign cars.. ALL of them.. but if I absolutely needed a convertible luxury car.. I'm not even able to put my favorite company on the list. I'd have to buy a Bentley, BMW, Audi, Benz, Jag, Lexus, or Infiniti. That's a fact

[steve333]

 

What We Know The 2016 CT6 is not Cadillac’s flagship, General Motors product chief Mark Reuss says. That role will be given to an even larger rear-wheel-drive sedan coming within four years. While the Cadillac CT6 is a bit bigger than a short-wheelbase BMW 7 Series, we expect the so-called CT8 to be slightly larger than the long-wheelbase Mercedes-Benz S-Class. The CT8, like the CT6, will ride on the new Omega platform, which employs GM’s patented process for welding aluminum. If the CT6 is any guide, the CT8 will be hundreds of pounds lighter than the S-Class. But the CT8 will be more than a long-wheelbase version of the CT6. Its styling should be more stately and upright, and it should put greater emphasis on ride comfort than handling dynamics. Engine choices will likely include the CT6’s new twin-turbo, 3.0-liter V-6 and a naturally aspirated, 3.6-liter V-6. Also expect a new V-8 from the same engine family, perhaps a twin-turbo, 4.5-liter example that will make 500-plus horsepower, as hinted by the Cadillac Elmiraj show car. The transmission will be an eight-speed automatic, unless the new 10-speed GM is developing with Ford arrives in time.

Why It Matters Although it doesn’t show on sales charts, Cadillac is enjoying a renaissance thanks to new models that match or beat their BMW and Mercedes-Benz rivals on many metrics. The CT8 promises to take these advances even further, making this car worthy of a window sticker that reads $95,000 or higher. Expect the CT8 to come with all the technology, safety, and luxury features Cadillac can muster to take on the Mercedes S-Class as the standard-bearer in this segment. Just as important, a big, long CT8 will give Cadillac a much-needed status symbol, a car worthy of shuttling important business and government leaders to global conferences.

Potential Pitfalls As much as Cadillac has improved, it has yet to achieve Lexus-like overall quality or Audi-like interior execution. The CT8 must do both. Specifically, its new engines must idle more smoothly than the engines we’ve experienced in the ATS and CTS, and the CUE infotainment system must respond quicker to user inputs. Even if Cadillac achieves all this right out of the gate, GM will have to be patient, as the CT8 will not achieve Audi/BMW/Mercedes status overnight.

When to Expect It Sometime during calendar year 2019, possibly by spring, as a 2020 model.

 

http://www.automobilemag.com/features/magazine/1508-cadillac-ct8-will-be-the-brands-first-true-flagship-in-modern-era/

 

I hope I didn't quote too much but that really is all the little article was so I thought it wasn't worth cutting it down..

 

Anyway, just some more exciting news coming from one of our D3!

 

That grill is awful, looks much better with the black mesh, IMO