I'm going to miss American cars...

[Flybrian]

The 'What If...?' discussion got me thinking about how international things are becoming and just how quickly they are becoming that way. I can perhaps understand the need to captively import and rebadge a Daewoo as a subcompact or a European Focus as we just get lazy in this country. But when I read and hear about how "global concerns" may just end up seriously dictiating how large our midsize and fullsize cars will be, I get irritated.

I have to wonder...am I the only one that's going to lament the passing of truly American-exclusive cars? Cars like...

For years it seems we've had to bend to the will of foreigners. The original 300M's rear was chopped because it was destined to be exported to Europe. The Sigma STS was shrunk from the previous Seville, again, to 'more adequately compete' in and with Europeans. And yet despite these efforts, we simply cannot win. Even our European-imported cars like the Focus and upcoming AURA just aren't European enough. And how many times has the CTS been bitched at because its bigger than a 3er but smaller than a 5er?

Maybe because its, uh, American? And America can do whatever the hell it wants, including sticking eighty pounds of ribbed plastic trim on the sides of a car, building a passenger sedan on a thirty year-old frame stronger than what underpins most Japanese trucks, put four individual backup lamps on one car, and most glorious of all, designing, building, and selling 17-foot long cars with two doors.

Everything's becoming too international, too common, too 'one-car-changed-slightly-to-appeal-to-different-markets.' I'm going to miss the model year when I can no longer buy a big, fat, chromed-up tank designed with absolutely no regard for European pedestrian safety regs or Asian size preferences or South American fuel requirements.

Things overseas aren't all that great themselves either, folks. The new Golf sucks so bad VW is redesigning it already. The Phaeton is a bust. And check out this center stack design...

Ugly, cheap-looking, and ergonomically screwed. Its from the Alfa-Romeo 166.

I'm not against incorporating certain desireable elements from foreign cars, but damnit, I still want my American cars to be American. If I wanted an import, I'd buy one.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

I agree. Detroit needs to go back to the way it used to do things, and the 300C is a good example of that. Detroit cannot be Japan or Europe, and vice versa. So they should quit with the front-drive bullcrap and get back to good ol' rear-drive and V-8 power, which, despite how "Redneck-ish" that sounds, is the/an American automobile institution. And they can do it and still be competitive, too.

[Drew Dowdell]

*raises a glass in toast*

[Drew Dowdell]

I agree. Detroit needs to go back to the way it used to do things, and the 300C is a good example of that. Detroit cannot be Japan or Europe, and vice versa. So they should quit with the front-drive bullcrap and get back to good ol' rear-drive and V-8 power, which, despite how "Redneck-ish" that sounds, is the/an American automobile institution. And they can do it and still be competitive, too.

uh, front drive is quite American. It was invented here. It was perfected here. It was popularized here.

[mightymouse]

Well put. I love American Vehicles...with beefy frames, wide bodies, and rumbling

V-8s. I have had it with globalization! I want the chrome, and dual exhaust, and

fat tires. I don't care about the whole world, as much as I care about US.

I know just what I want and won't settle for less. I'm with Fly.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

Actually, front-drive is a French thing, I believe, first used on a Citroen. But, Oldsmoboi, you are right about one thing, I suppose: it was perfected here and popularized here.

Edited May 7, 2006 by YellowJacket894

[trinacriabob]

Wait, wait...we need to hit a midpoint here. Yes, look at how most of us drool over the good stuff: cast iron Rocket V8s or Buick V6s, sumptuous interiors, more color choices, a quiet boulevard ride and a good dose of torque. HOWEVER, it needs to be executed with today's advancements in quality control. That old combo of ingredients with mid 80s quality control and (lack of) longevity is not a good thing. That's what got GM in trouble. I, too, want some of those things back. I will never forget the interior of my 84 Cutlass Supreme Brougham ("the little Cutlass that could") and the inherent handling balance of a RWD car. However, the second Cutlass gave less problems than the first and my 92 Regal's reliability blows both Cutlasses away.

- how do I shrink this, anyway?

Blend the old and the new. I don't want an American car that feels Asian or European .... that's not why I drive GM and it's not why I post on this forum.

Edited May 7, 2006 by trinacriabob

[Flybrian]

HOWEVER, it needs to be executed with today's advancements in quality control.  That old combo of ingredients with mid 80s quality control and longevity is not a good thing.

Agreed, but remember, quality control is not a nationalized thing. We have good quality, we just need to spread it around. I'm becoming less of an admirer of current Japanese quality and European quality is the joke de jour.

[Drew Dowdell]

Actually, front-drive is a French thing, I believe, first used on a Citroen. But, Oldsmoboi, you are right about one thing, I suppose: it was perfected here and popularized here.

Ah didn't know about the Citroen... but apparently we're tied with the French because they were developed at the same time.

[pow]

I'm sure the sports cars, SUVs, and pick-ups will still be solely American.

[knightfan26917]

I'm not against incorporating certain desireable elements from foreign cars, but damnit, I still want my American cars to be American. If I wanted an import, I'd buy one.

*nods*

I agree whole-heartedly.

This is part of the reason why I so much love going to car cruises/events ... to see all of the "cars of yesterday" that are STILL driven and enjoyed .

Cort, "Mr MC" / "Mr Road Trip", 32swm/pig valve/pacemaker

MC:family.IL.guide.future = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort/

Models.HO = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort/trainroom.html

"Someday you will find me" ... Oasis ... 'Champaign Supernova'

[mustang84]

I'm with ya, Fly. I'm not really a fan of minimalist European and Asian designs. I like my bold chrome grilles and RWD proportions. It bothers me when people want to bring Holden Statemens over and slap a Buick badge on it because it's just an Australian car with a Buick badge....there's nothing "Buick" about it.

The Chrysler 300 is such a success because it's an excessive, overwrought sedan brimming with horsepower and all the other goodies that made American cars legends in the past. I'm sure if Ford had brought out the 427, it would be seeing the same success as well.

Today when I came home, I noticed our neighbors now have an early 80s Delta 88 sitting in their driveway. That thing is in beautiful shape and has more character in one half of the grille than there is in some entire sedans today.

[ocnblu]

Yeah, I like to dabble, but Umurrika is my home and no car company will ever have a history as rich and absolutely dripping with delicious power as GM. We need something to be proud of again!

[Camino LS6]

Need I state my position on this question?

[Sixty8panther]

Quite possibly Fly's best post EVER!

[Camino LS6]

The RWD Holdens are the exception - they are very American in design (except for the steering wheel issue).

[pow]

The RWD Holdens are the exception - they are very American in design (except for the steering wheel issue).

I think it's even better... the power and brute force of an American car, with the subtlety and refinement of an European car.

Seeing Pontiac isn't going retro by any means (Solstice), the Holdens would make excellent driver-focused Pontiacs.

Edited May 7, 2006 by empowah

[Camino LS6]

I think it's even better... the power and brute force of an American car, with the subtlety and refinement of an European car.

Yup, and exactly where American cars would be if they hadn't blundered into the FWD blandmobile wasteland for several decades.

[Variance]

The first gen Infiniti M45 looked very American, IMO:

[pow]

Yup, and exactly where American cars would be if they hadn't blundered into the FWD blandmobile wasteland for several decades.

And it's not like the current G6 looks any more American than the Holden VE spy pics.

[pow]

The first gen Infiniti M45 looked very American, IMO:

And they sold, like, 7 of them?

It wasn't expensive, either, for its class... essentially V8 power for six-cylinder price.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

Ah didn't know about the Citroen... but apparently we're tied with the French because they were developed at the same time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, it was the '30s or so, I think. I think the car was the 3CV or something... Ah, I might Google it or Ask Jeeves about it, see what turns up.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

... And behold, I'm right. The first mainstream (as for it being such in this country, I don't think so...) front-drive car was the French-built Citroën Traction Avant 7A.

Here's a bit from Citroën's website on the matter.

A vehicle of revolutionary design, the Traction Avant is hailed by the press when it makes its debut in 1934.

It is "so new, so bold, so full of original ideas, so different from what has gone before"

Other carmakers, including the German firm Adler, had already tried to produce a vehicle in which the car is driven by the front wheels. But the engine was too big and this limited the size of the passenger compartment.

As a result, the cars of the time tend to have rear-wheel steering. Moreover, they are made of wood, covered with sheets of metal fixed to a chassis with the engine bolted on directly. Cars therefore tend to be particularly heavy with fixed steering systems. The technical challenge facing the Traction Avant was to devise a way of placing the engine and gearbox assembly on the front wheels, which are both powered and steered. The vehicle would also have a lower centre of gravity. As a result, the car offers excellent roadholding, making it much sought-after.

This innovative engineering is not the only surprise in store for drivers of the Traction Avant. Everything is new. The car is much lighter since the integral, unitised all-steel body (a design adopted by Lancia before Citroën) does away with the old chassis. And thanks to the efforts of engineer André Lefebvre and styling engineer Flaminio Bertini, the vehicle is more aerodynamic than its predecessors, with well designed lines, evenly distributed weight and an air flow that favours speed.

André Citroën had even planned an automatic gearbox but problems with sealing led him to adopt, at the last minute, a mechanical gearbox developed in secret by far-seeing engineers. At the start, the body shell is too slack, the floating engine floats too much. The Traction is not entirely ready when it is unveiled to the public. The first customers have to cope with the teething problems! The vehicle is really only technically ready a few months later.

In 1936, the Traction Avant is further improved: the torsion bar suspension is replaced by hydraulic shock absorbers and the vehicle gains rack and pinion steering. The last Traction leaves Javel on 25 July 1957.

With a total output of 759,123 vehicles, the Traction Avant was in production for 23 years, 4 months and 15 days, a world record for its time.

And a few photos...

And I think it was this car or another that helped the Olds Toronado design team make the decision to make that car front-drive.

So, front-drive is a French thing made American, in other words.

Edited May 7, 2006 by YellowJacket894

[Camino LS6]

I should have known it was France's fault.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

^ And blame Italy for uni-body construction, too.

[capriceman]

I think the 1930's Cord had more influence on the 66 toronado than that. i think it was the first FWD. If not the world it was for america.

[Cory Wolfe]

Hmm... I really understand what you guys are talking about, but... I hate big cars. I hate chrome. I hate the 300C. I'm not going to miss anything that you guys have mentioned.

[ocnblu]

I've made a voodoo doll to look like your ATV. And now I'm going to stick pins in all four tires./chat "evil laugh" sound effect

[Croc]

I look at it this way...American cars will never truly go away because American ingenuity will always triumph. Americans invented the minivan. We pretty much invented the SUV...we invented the first mainstream, modern, assembly-line-assembled car (Model T).

As long as we keep innovating, we will keep building world class cars.

[Bimmer325]

I'm no fan of big, wallowy, awkwardly proportioned front-drivers, so, no...I won't be missing anything that Fly posted. Good riddance.

The STS is in an entirely different league than the car it replaced (Seville) in regards to design (both inside and out) and performance. If that's the result of "bending to the will of foreigners," I'll gladly do so. :wink:

Things like overwrought cladding and poor packaging may be a novelty, but in today's automotive market, they're good for nothing more than a laugh.

[pow]

I wouldn't worry too much; the number of distinctly American cars will only increase... CTS, STS, XLR, DTS, SRX, HHR, PT, 300C, Magnum, Charger, Fusion, Zephyr, Mustang, Camaro, GTO, Corvette, Viper, GT, and so on. The cars that should be "globalized" aren't very American to begin with, and who says it only goes one way? Cadillacs and Chryslers are being sold outside NA.

[Croc]

Exactly...and the biggest hindrance to Cadillac's EU success is the very limited dealership network.

[trinacriabob]

^ And blame Italy for uni-body construction, too.

Don't be blaming Italy, now!

Q: What's the difference between an elderly Italian woman and an elephant?

A: About 50 pounds and a black dress

[Drew Dowdell]

The FWD Cord came out also in 1934... and was the inspiration for the Toronado. The horrizontal grill and hide away headlights of the Toronado were tributes to the Cord.

So... much like any other battle... the best France can claim is a tie.

... And behold, I'm right. The first mainstream (as for it being such in this country, I don't think so...) front-drive car was the French-built Citroën Traction Avant 7A.

Here's a bit from Citroën's website on the matter.

A vehicle of revolutionary design, the Traction Avant is hailed by the press when it makes its debut in 1934.

It is "so new, so bold, so full of original ideas, so different from what has gone before"

Other carmakers, including the German firm Adler, had already tried to produce a vehicle in which the car is driven by the front wheels. But the engine was too big and this limited the size of the passenger compartment.

As a result, the cars of the time tend to have rear-wheel steering. Moreover, they are made of wood, covered with sheets of metal fixed to a chassis with the engine bolted on directly. Cars therefore tend to be particularly heavy with fixed steering systems. The technical challenge facing the Traction Avant was to devise a way of placing the engine and gearbox assembly on the front wheels, which are both powered and steered. The vehicle would also have a lower centre of gravity. As a result, the car offers excellent roadholding, making it much sought-after.

This innovative engineering is not the only surprise in store for drivers of the Traction Avant. Everything is new. The car is much lighter since the integral, unitised all-steel body (a design adopted by Lancia before Citroën) does away with the old chassis. And thanks to the efforts of engineer André Lefebvre and styling engineer Flaminio Bertini, the vehicle is more aerodynamic than its predecessors, with well designed lines, evenly distributed weight and an air flow that favours speed.

André Citroën had even planned an automatic gearbox but problems with sealing led him to adopt, at the last minute, a mechanical gearbox developed in secret by far-seeing engineers. At the start, the body shell is too slack, the floating engine floats too much. The Traction is not entirely ready when it is unveiled to the public. The first customers have to cope with the teething problems! The vehicle is really only technically ready a few months later.

In 1936, the Traction Avant is further improved: the torsion bar suspension is replaced by hydraulic shock absorbers and the vehicle gains rack and pinion steering. The last Traction leaves Javel on 25 July 1957.

With a total output of 759,123 vehicles, the Traction Avant was in production for 23 years, 4 months and 15 days, a world record for its time.

And a few photos...

And I think it was this car or another that helped the Olds Toronado design team make the decision to make that car front-drive.

So, front-drive is a French thing made American, in other words.

[knightfan26917]

I believe we all know how I feel about American designs:

Oh SWEET!

Is that on a T-shirt or somethin'?

Cort, "Mr MC" / "Mr Road Trip", 32swm/pig valve/pacemaker

MC:family.IL.guide.future = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort/

Models.HO = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort/trainroom.html

"I wonder if it's too late" ... Nickelback ... 'Photograph'

[trinacriabob]

Hey, WMJ...can you make one of those prints WITHOUT the Mopar stuff?

[ZL-1]

Exactly...and the biggest hindrance to Cadillac's EU success is the very limited dealership network.

Also the lack of diesel engines.

[NINETY EIGHT REGENCY]

This is why I drive the car I drive. This is why those two Cadillac video threads got responses. They are what people want. The Chrysler LX car s are hits for the reasons so many have said.

If GM can get us more of these cars in the fashion we want, they may increase sales. The Lucerne looks great, but it has an international appeal. The Buicks in China look more American than ours do. They use stand up hood ornaments. You only see that one car in this country that is American. That is the Lincoln Town Car.

No, we should not lose our identity for the same of globalization. We should embrace it and sell what we know to the world.

The reason why GM and Ford lost so much time and market share was not just due to poor products, but poor product planning.

I recently read or heard the last rear drive Buick (The Roadmaster) was a success, but what killed it was the fact GM stop building cars like that.

I prefer the large cars like mine. My Ninety Eight may not use a V8, but the V6 is just as strong. It is the values of what it stands for that sold me.

[Sixty8panther]

I should have known it was France's fault.

Damn French! So FWD is all a part of their evil plan.

BTW Variance:

I agree 100% about the 1st gen. M45. When it came out it looked

quite disconcerting and odd, esp. the nose but I've grown to love

it and wojuld love one for a daily driver.

FLY:

I didn't realize they had Navigation Systems on 1985 Alfa Romeos?!

[trinacriabob]

Ooh-la-la..."la Cathedrale Roulante" in all its glory

Definitely more manageable...and a nicer shape...and the trees and the brick, very Houston TX 

Edited May 8, 2006 by trinacriabob

[CaddyXLR-V]

Well I wont miss the cars mentioned in this thread like the 80-90s buicks(except Grand Nationals). But I do miss the real American cars like 60s impalas, chevelles, and 442s. I was driving back from the bay area in CA, following my brother in his 63 Impala. It was unreal how many people were waving to him, and gawking at his car, people of all ages. Someone stopped to talk to him about it at every gas station. I guess there is demand for bold American cars. The next Impala should do very well.

[Flybrian]

One thing I find funny about that Alfa (which is a 2006 166, btw) is that it has navigation with a tape deck and some sort of card slot, but no visable CD slot. Nice.

[Ravenfreak13]

This just makes me more happy to recieve that 66 buick in june!

[Croc]

One thing I find funny about that Alfa (which is a 2006 166, btw) is that it has navigation with a tape deck and some sort of card slot, but no visable CD slot. Nice.

I believe that's actually a mini-CD slot...those are more popular in EU than NA...

[Sixty8panther]

One thing I find funny about that Alfa (which is a 2006 166, btw) is that it has navigation with a tape deck and some sort of card slot, but no visable CD slot. Nice.

MINI-Disks. They rock! I wish they had gotten

as popular here as in the EU. My dad has a ton

of Minidisk players and bought into the

technology back in the late 90s. Too bad that

the technology was not accepted in the USA.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

I think the 1930's Cord had more influence on the 66 toronado than that. i think it was the first FWD. If not the world it was for america.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Notice I said "or another" in that post with the Citroen. :AH-HA_wink:

[capriceman]

i neva passt tat ingalish classssss.

as in understanding and completely reading sections

Edited May 9, 2006 by capriceman

[balthazar]

FWD citroen traction avant came out for '34 (as noted above), however, the FWD Cord L-29 came out for 1929, not '34.

Citroen had no influence on the '66 Toronado, but the Cord had a lot.

FWD in modern times was heavily popularized by foreign imports; as of '79 the only domestic FWD vehicles were a half-handful of luxury coupes, but there were a number of FWD japanese imports. These were what spurred on domestic FWD models en mass.

It was, of course, carried far too far.

[Sixty8panther]

FWD in modern times was heavily popularized by foreign imports; as of '79 the only domestic FWD vehicles were a half-handful of luxury coupes, but there were a number of FWD japanese imports. These were what spurred on domestic FWD models en mass.

It was, of course, carried far too far.

That's an understatement, even coming from you Balthazar. :wink:

The expenential spreading of the plague of FWD can be

compared to the abuse of power by the UAW in recent

years. Both have contributed to the decline of the big-3

more than all the other factors combined.

[knightfan26917]

That is on a Hawiian shirt. I found the same material at a craft store where I was buying some model cars, too. I'll try to get back there soon and see how much it is per yard.

Sweet ... do let us know ... please'n'thank you .