Revisiting the Corvette Brand: Autonomy From Chevy Dealership

[Cmicasa the Great]

I have posed this question before to hard core enthusiasts and most always say no.. because of tradition. My thought is that the Corvette is now essentially in Porsche territory in terms of quality, fit and finish.. and obviously performance and tech. Many non-enthusiasts don;t even kno that the Corvette is a Chevy. I $h! U not. Most people I talk to who are not enthusiasts think the Corvette is a.. Corvette. They kno the cost is not cheap.. and in reality Chevy is the "every man" brand of GM. It is on par  in terms of perceptional with Ford, Toyota, Nissan, and Honda. My thought is screw tradition. It holds the brand back:

 

1) Porsche is no longer "traditional." The 911 is not the volume car at Porsche.. it is their Flagship. The Corvette is, in many ways, on level with Porsche's Cayman/Boxster to 911s. It should enjoy the autonomy. 

 

 

2) The fastest car at GM should be the CORVETTE.. the Corvette just shouldn't be a Chevy. The Corvette should be sold thru Cadillac dealers so that its service level will be up to par with its price. As it stands... Chevy dealers do not have the level of service amenities or coddling that is necessary to handle the buyer of a $60-130K sports car. Cadillac does.  But as a bone for Traditionalist.. keep the Vette at Chevy, but separate it within the dealership experience. 

 

3) The Camaro almost makes the Corvette redundant as a sports car at Chevy. The Camaro is on level with the Mustang. It could be a viable Flagship for Chevy at this point especially with the Camaro stretching out all the way to $80,000 for a Z28. Its performance is undeniable. It is no longer the go to for tack heads with mullets or guidos with gold chains. The Camaro is down right "Premium" in its own right

 

4) A revisit to the profitability of a Corvette Brand. The Corvette division is something I've been talking about for years though..

It has occurred to me that Chevy, and possibly GM really are pushing for the Camaro to be the Halo car for Chevy these days. If so... is the Corvette finally gonna get the autonomy it deserves as a separate brand, just sold in Chevy, or better yet.. Cadillac dealers?

 

 

Quite frankly I believe that GM would make very large profits with a Corvette Specific brand in the same vane as Porsche's 911 and Cayenne:

 

a) Stingray $55K-75K (Base Model 460HP)

b) Grand Sport $65K-85K (Upgrade with 550HP)

c) Z06 $85-105K (650HP)

d) ZR1 $110K-150K Mid-Engined (720HP)

e) a yes an ALPHA based Coupe CROSSOVER with a 320HP V6, a 450HP LT1, and a S/C 580HP LT1 as well. 

 

All of this would continue to be sold at a CHEVY dealership in a separate (even if by partitioned wall) part of Dealership with specific/exclusive sales reps and technicians, again better yet would be the Cadillac Dealers being able to

 

 

Cadillac would get the a pick 3 of those vehicles.

 

a) CT7 (based off Stingray) would be a 2seater coupe with a 300HP 2.0LTurbo, optioned with a 440HP TTV6 for the Vseries (vs SLK)

 

b) CT9 (based off Z06 and GS) 2seater with 460HP base, and VSport 580HP with optional "Check the Box" V-series at 650HP

 

c)Cien (CT11) (it along with the Escalade would be the only non Alphanumeric) It would be completely based off mid-engine ZORA and would come out before it. 720HP for coupe and a Roadster at 730HP

 

GM would have a viable competitor in these two divisions to both Porsche and Benz/Audi in almost all categories. Its time and they need to act once the Z06 is in place for the Corvette and the CT9 in place for Cadillac. Properly engineered and leveraged they could use these two brands to usurp the profit reigns from both Toyota and VW.. using the VW strategy as Audi and Porsche are where its actual profits come from (Toyota's profits actually come from, and I'm not BS-ing here, leveraging older platforms under new skins with very little upgrades in terms of engines. (See Camry and Corolla). With Cadillac and a Corvette "semi"division within Chevy, along with GMC and Buick, which are extremely profitable, GM could be what it once was in the pre-90s as far as profits. Cadillac should have a version of the Corvette, perhaps augmented to be a mid-engine car like the ZORA is rumored to be. It is my opinion that Corvette.. as long as it is directly under Chevy's dealership network should not in anyway get a version of the proposed possible ZORA. Cadillac should have a version of the Corvette, perhaps augmented to be a mid-engine car like the ZORA is rumored to be. It is my opinion that Corvette.. as long as it is under Chevy's dealership network should not in anyway get a version of the proposed possible ZORA. 

 

[hyperv6]

Well we can dream of many paths this could go but this is what will happen.

We will for a while keep the C7 while the new C8 will appear along size it. Both will be Chevy models as like the insiders at GM comment. Chevy sells more cars so Chevy gets more say on what happens.

 

The bottom line is they will not pry the Corvette away from Chevy no matter what. With the advent of the Ford GT return that seals the deal. Now that is not to say they can brand the Corvette overseas as a Corvette in markets with  no Chevy lines.

 

I do expect that there will be a Cadillac version of the C8 at some point like the Audi is to the Lambo. You can do two cars and do them well if you plan them right.

 

I also expect a smaller roadster from Cadillac at some point but there is a lot of work to do with the main lines before they need to worry about the two seat segment. They need to get the sedans right first and the SUV segment addressed as this is where the real money is.

 

There are plans for Bowling Green as that is why there is so much investment going on there in improvements. They would not sink all that money there just for the C7 that is already out.

 

Like it or not  Corvette was and still is a Chevy and will remain a Chevy.

As for the Camaro and Corvette both are Chevy models and both appeal to different groups. The appeal of a $80K Camaro is limited buy the wallet of most of the customers, Now you can almost make an argument the Camaro is redundant to the low end C7 but yet people who want a Corvette buy a Corvette not a Camaro.

Edited June 15, 2015 by hyperv6

[Cmicasa the Great]

I meant redundant in the since of SPORTS car.. but obviously the Camaro has 2+2 seating and relies more on the Corvette as a donor for tech and engines. I still stick with my assertion that the Vette, with its every rising cost of initial ownership would be better off, in terms of customer service, with the concierge, Ritz type service of Cadillac vs the roll-away cart Holiday Inn-Express type service of Chevy. We are now talking for 2016 $56K for base Stingray to $115K for a base C7.R

[Frisky Dingo]

I actually agree on most counts.

 

I wholeheartedly think Corvette should be it's own sub-brand now. It's a no-brainer. I would argue against them being on par with Porsche from a fit/finish, material, and build quality stand point, but that can be easily improved upon, and the gap is much smaller than it has been in the past. I have a slightly different idea on prospective models, however.

 

1)Base car- Call it what you will, but make it a simple approach- 5.5 NA V8 with 400-420hp, keep options fairly basic and limited. Price it to start in the mid 40's, let's say 48K.

 

2)Stingray/Grand Sport- Basically equivalent to the C7 we already have. If we're talking next generation of cars, 475-480hp should suffice. Priced from 58K.

 

3)Hybrid model- TT V6 with electric motors powering the front wheels giving it AWD. DCT trans only. About 525hp total combined. Priced from 70K. The techie's choice.

 

4)Z06- Highest front-engined model. Large capacity NA V8 making 600hp. More focused than current Z06. Priced around 85K to start.

 

5)ZR-1/Zora/whatevs- Mid-engine layout, partial carbon fiber construction, RWD, DCT with +650hp NA V8 or smaller capacity TT V8. Start @ 125K.

 

6)No SUV of any kind or any thing remotely similar. MAYBE a coupe-like sport sedan a la 6 Seriec GC, A7, etc.

 

 

Cadillac could maybe have it's own variant of one or two of those. Perhaps a folding hard top variant of #2 or 3 with more of a luxury slant, and then an even higher mid-engine model with over 700hp. All the latest tech to be as light and exotic as possible.

 

I would go so far as to say the Corvette brand could even have a 2.0T or 3.6 V6 model under 400hp that came in under 40K.

[smk4565]

Chevy dealers will never allow the Corvette to leave their building.

 

The Camaro should be $25-50k max.  You don't need a $60-80k  550 hp Camaro, the volume is low and that is why Corvette or even Cadillac exist.  If a V8 Camaro bases under $40k, you still have $10k of room to add track options and to me 460 hp is enough for a Camaro.  You don't want a 550 hp hp Camaro for $50k that out performs a $65k ATS-V.

 

The Corvette should actually put an engine below the 460 hp Stingray model.  If they can put a 4-cyinder in a CT6, then surly they can put a 335 V6 in a Corvette for $47k (every GM fan says the 335 hp V6 is good enough for Cadillac so it is good enough for a Corvette which weighs even less), then the Sting Ray picks up at $55k where it is now.  Z06 would be the top end at $80k or whatever it is.  That expands Corvette sales and keeps it more the everyman's sports car, as it has always been.

 

Corvette isn't on par with Porsche, even Cadillacs don't have interiors/build quality of Porsche.  It should be Cadillac's job to go after Porsche, Mercedes, BMW, Maserati, Jaguar.  Not Corvette.  GM thinks the Corvette is the ultimate sports car, but it isn't even close.  Let the Corvette be what it always was, a good performance per dollar car, there is nothing wrong with sticking with a formula that works.  If GM wants to build grand touring coupes or super cars or even hyper cars, that is Cadillac.

[balthazar]

You don't want a 550 hp hp Camaro for $50k that out performs a $65k ATS-V.

This is only potentially an issue if the 2 were in a majority of ways similar, and got cross-shopped. They are not and do not. 

[Drew Dowdell]

 You don't want a 550 hp hp Camaro for $50k that out performs a $65k ATS-V.

 

A 556hp hasn't seemed to hurt the M3/4 any.... perhaps there is something more to it than just 0-60?

[smk4565]

BMW drivers wouldn't buy a Chevy even if the Camaro had 1,000 hp.

 

If you want more performance than a 460 hp Camaro, there is Corvette.  That is why you have two sports cars, why there is Cadillac V-series.  Porsche doesn't put 500 hp in the Cayman, if you want that you have to get a 911.  I'd be in favor of a track model Camaro Z28 with the same 460 hp V8 as the SS, but they could do a rear seat delete and cut weight, beef up the brakes and suspension.

 

A 270 hp Cadillac CT6 adequate but a 460 hp Camaro is not enough?  That doesn't make sense.

[Robert Hall]

Sort of related to the topic, wasn't there an idea to make Corvette quasi-autonomous and able to be sold at any GM dealer floated at GM maybe 20 years ago?  I seem to recall something in Car & Driver or another magazine in he 90s on this theme..

[Drew Dowdell]

BMW drivers wouldn't buy a Chevy even if the Camaro had 1,000 hp.

 

If you want more performance than a 460 hp Camaro, there is Corvette.  That is why you have two sports cars, why there is Cadillac V-series.  Porsche doesn't put 500 hp in the Cayman, if you want that you have to get a 911.  I'd be in favor of a track model Camaro Z28 with the same 460 hp V8 as the SS, but they could do a rear seat delete and cut weight, beef up the brakes and suspension.

 

A 270 hp Cadillac CT6 adequate but a 460 hp Camaro is not enough?  That doesn't make sense.

 

A 270 hp CT6 is adequate because there is also a 335hp CT6 and a plug-in Hybrid with 335 hp and 432 lb-ft of torque and a 400 hp twin-turbo V6.... and a twin turbo V8 coming that is most likely well over 500 horsepower.

[oldshurst442]

Chevy dealers will never allow the Corvette to leave their building.

 

The Camaro should be $25-50k max.  You don't need a $60-80k  550 hp Camaro, the volume is low and that is why Corvette or even Cadillac exist.  If a V8 Camaro bases under $40k, you still have $10k of room to add track options and to me 460 hp is enough for a Camaro.  You don't want a 550 hp hp Camaro for $50k that out performs a $65k ATS-V.

 

The Corvette should actually put an engine below the 460 hp Stingray model.  If they can put a 4-cyinder in a CT6, then surly they can put a 335 V6 in a Corvette for $47k (every GM fan says the 335 hp V6 is good enough for Cadillac so it is good enough for a Corvette which weighs even less), then the Sting Ray picks up at $55k where it is now.  Z06 would be the top end at $80k or whatever it is.  That expands Corvette sales and keeps it more the everyman's sports car, as it has always been.

 

Corvette isn't on par with Porsche, even Cadillacs don't have interiors/build quality of Porsche.  It should be Cadillac's job to go after Porsche, Mercedes, BMW, Maserati, Jaguar.  Not Corvette.  GM thinks the Corvette is the ultimate sports car, but it isn't even close.  Let the Corvette be what it always was, a good performance per dollar car, there is nothing wrong with sticking with a formula that works.  If GM wants to build grand touring coupes or super cars or even hyper cars, that is Cadillac.

"Chevy dealers will never allow the Corvette to leave their building."

True.

 

"The Camaro should be $25-50k max. You don't need a $60-80k  550 hp Camaro, the volume is low and that is why Corvette or even Cadillac exist"

False. There is some serious technology that is given to the upper echelon Camaro. That technology costs money.

I wouldnt want Chevrolet to limit the performance of the Camaro due to the fact that Corvette or Cadillac exists. The Camaro has rivals too...Some of those rivals are natural rivals since the birth of time (Mustang and Challenger, especially Mustang)  and some new rivals (Genesis Coupe, BMW M4, Nissan 370) and the Camaro has to stay on top of its game to beat its competition. That way the Camaro stays fresh and relevant. You limit its capabilities, it will die off again...

 

and to me 460 hp is enough for a Camaro. 

Of course...you dont want Camaro to kick any of your German faves' ass...

 

You don't want a 550 hp hp Camaro for $50k that out performs a $65k ATS-V.

 

Ummmmm, yes WE DO!!!

Im not a Camaro guy...Im a Trans Am guy. Never the less....

Im not a Cadillac ATS-V guy...Im more of a mid-sized car guy...CTS-V guy....or 1970  Oldsmobile 442....

Im more of a Camaro type individual that I am a BMW M4 or Cadillac ATS-V type of individual....If Chevy limits its performance...I just go to cross town rivals Mustang or Challenger...and believe me...there are many like me....

Besides...different market, different niche.

Also...Camaro has a HUUUUUUGE fan base. It has cachet that even a BMW M3/M4 is jealous of let alone a brand new ATS...

Proof?

I dont see Year One or Dynacorn selling  brand new previous generation M3 body shells like they do with Camaro...1969 Camaro...

 

 

That expands Corvette sales and keeps it more the everyman's sports car, as it has always been.

 

Corvette isn't on par with Porsche,

 

And finally....we come to my point of view as to why corvette NEEDS to become a brand of its own...

 

Corvette as of now....is built on a price point....and is sold on a price point too...

It also is jack of all trades.

 

On the price point...

Chevy gives all the technology needed to surpass Porsches and Ferraris...This tech is just as high end as the other two I mentioned.  The Corvette was NEVER about luxury....Chevy focused on the luxury part in 1978 when the performance and horsepower numbers had to go down becasue of CAFE...but...the Corvette was always about engineering, technology, speed at Chevy prices...

And this is where the jack of all trades comes in...today...the Corvette HAS to EVOLVE....

But it cant....

It HAS to do battle with Porsche 911 as a GT car...but as a Sports car Porsche 911 GT3...

It has to stay affordable enough to be in the Porsche Cayman territory....

 

The Corvette also has to do battle with mid-engine exotics from the "affordable"  Ferrari 458 and it has to achieve speeds that better the 458...it has to achieve performance in the La Ferrari territory.

 

The Corvette also has to be styled as crazy as Lamborghinis are...because Corvettes were styled that way BEFORE Feruccio even dreamt about building sports cars...

 

How can the Corvette be all that...with just 1 model...OK...2 models...

The base Stingray and the Z06.

The Corvette has to grow.

The Corvette needs more models.

Like a 911? To specialize in all the facets of performance and driving style?

Yeah....but Porsche also has front engined RWD cars in its stable.

It also has mid-engine cars with electric hybrid tech...

 

Same with Ferrari.

Its only the Corvette that is limited...with just 2 models. Last generation...there was 3. But they all had to do battle with every single sports car niche.

From the back to basic sports car Miata...because whether you guys want to admit it or not...the Miata does steal sales from the Corvette. Not from Porsche...Porsche has got the Boxster...and the Cayman for a hard top...

From  a luxury GT....everybody whines about how a Corvette does NOT compete with Porsche with its interiors...

 

Ill stop it here...because I feel that my post is becoming more of a rant than anything else...

But...let me remind you SMK4565 that the 911 was as Spartan as a VW Beetle at one point in time...

And this is 1986....not 1963...

 

 

Nothing luxurious in that interior...its just that Porsche let the 911 evolve...and the company itself evolved...

Because the lower end Porsches...in the 1980s like a  944...was not that special either.

In 1986...Id say the Corvette;s interior was on par with a 911.

Its just that a Corvette did not have a chance to evolve.

Ferrari...Porsche....they got the message that the Acura NSX sent them...

[balthazar]

BMW drivers wouldn't buy a Chevy even if the Camaro had 1,000 hp.

A LOT more BMWs have had "Chevy" small blocks installed in them than you would think.

Way more than the other way around, BTW.

[Robert Hall]

 

BMW drivers wouldn't buy a Chevy even if the Camaro had 1,000 hp.

A LOT more BMWs have had "Chevy" small blocks installed in them than you would think.

 

But those aren't serious BMW owners, just backyard hacks doing engine swaps on old worn out cars...a GM engine in a BMW kind of defeats the point of having a BMW. As deranged an idea as putting a Chevy engine in a Mustang.

Edited June 16, 2015 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[Robert Hall]

 

 

 

Nothing luxurious in that interior...its just that Porsche let the 911 evolve...and the company itself evolved...

Because the lower end Porsches...in the 1980s like a  944...was not that special either.

In 1986...Id say the Corvette;s interior was on par with a 911.

 

 

The '86 Corvette interior was pretty hideous--blocky dash w/ digital gauges.nothing remotely sporty.  The 911 dash of that era was minimalist, serious, no nonsense and clearly evolved from the earlier 911s.

Edited June 16, 2015 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[smk4565]

 

BMW drivers wouldn't buy a Chevy even if the Camaro had 1,000 hp.

 

If you want more performance than a 460 hp Camaro, there is Corvette.  That is why you have two sports cars, why there is Cadillac V-series.  Porsche doesn't put 500 hp in the Cayman, if you want that you have to get a 911.  I'd be in favor of a track model Camaro Z28 with the same 460 hp V8 as the SS, but they could do a rear seat delete and cut weight, beef up the brakes and suspension.

 

A 270 hp Cadillac CT6 adequate but a 460 hp Camaro is not enough?  That doesn't make sense.

 

A 270 hp CT6 is adequate because there is also a 335hp CT6 and a plug-in Hybrid with 335 hp and 432 lb-ft of torque and a 400 hp twin-turbo V6.... and a twin turbo V8 coming that is most likely well over 500 horsepower.

 

So would you be in favor of a 335 hp V6 Corvette for $47,000?  Personally, I think they should make such a car to expand the Corvette brand, and a V6/8-speed Corvette should still hit 60 in 5 seconds maybe less, it is a 3200 lb car.  And there is a V8 and supercharged V8 if you want more.

 

I do think though that the CTS and CT6 should have a standard V6.  I am game for the 2.0T in the ATS, and I would be fine with a 2.0T plug in hybrid on CTS/CT6 because then you are back to 350 hp/torque.

 

As far as Corvettes sold  in other dealerships, absolutely not.  It is a Chevy, it gets sold in a Chevy dealership.  They don't sell Escalades at the Buick dealership.

[Frisky Dingo]

 

 

BMW drivers wouldn't buy a Chevy even if the Camaro had 1,000 hp.

A LOT more BMWs have had "Chevy" small blocks installed in them than you would think.

 

But those aren't serious BMW owners, just backyard hacks doing engine swaps on old worn out cars...a GM engine in a BMW kind of defeats the point of having a BMW.

 

 

 

Idk, I'd love to have an LSx in my old E36. 

[oldshurst442]

 

 

BMW drivers wouldn't buy a Chevy even if the Camaro had 1,000 hp.

A LOT more BMWs have had "Chevy" small blocks installed in them than you would think.

 

But those aren't serious BMW owners, just backyard hacks doing engine swaps on old worn out cars...a GM engine in a BMW kind of defeats the point of having a BMW.

 

But what does that tell you about Chevrolet loyalty?

Does that mean that these guys are not really Chevy guys because they chose BMWs or Mustangs or Porsche 911s to install their SBC in?

At the end of the day....horsepower is what SMK4565 is talking about...and at the end of the day...its the SBC that wins that argument...in a Chevy or in a BMW...

And...when the Camaro is on the Alpha platform next year....even BMW enthusiasts will be impressed by this blue collar machine. And yeah...some of them might defect....

Only the badge snobs wont...

Same argument as your "But those aren't serious BMW owners, just backyard hacks"...but in reverse....in my favor...

[Robert Hall]

 

 

 

BMW drivers wouldn't buy a Chevy even if the Camaro had 1,000 hp.

A LOT more BMWs have had "Chevy" small blocks installed in them than you would think.

 

But those aren't serious BMW owners, just backyard hacks doing engine swaps on old worn out cars...a GM engine in a BMW kind of defeats the point of having a BMW.

 

 

 

Idk, I'd love to have an LSx in my old E36. 

 

Blasphemy!  I had an E36 M3 back in the day..BMW straight 6 all the way..

[oldshurst442]

 

 

 

 

Nothing luxurious in that interior...its just that Porsche let the 911 evolve...and the company itself evolved...

Because the lower end Porsches...in the 1980s like a  944...was not that special either.

In 1986...Id say the Corvette;s interior was on par with a 911.

 

 

The '86 Corvette interior was pretty hideous--blocky dash w/ digital gauges.nothing remotely sporty.  The 911 dash of that era was minimalist, serious, no nonsense and clearly evolved from the earlier 911s.

So much ahead of its time...that in 2015...we have digital dashboards...

You could call that minimalist...Ill call it what it really is...CHEAP!!!

You could call the Corvette 's interior blocky and hideous....Ill just call it what it really is...1980s Wallstreet EXCESS!!!

Edited June 16, 2015 by oldshurst442

[oldshurst442]

 

 

 

 

BMW drivers wouldn't buy a Chevy even if the Camaro had 1,000 hp.

A LOT more BMWs have had "Chevy" small blocks installed in them than you would think.

 

But those aren't serious BMW owners, just backyard hacks doing engine swaps on old worn out cars...a GM engine in a BMW kind of defeats the point of having a BMW.

 

 

 

Idk, I'd love to have an LSx in my old E36. 

 

Blasphemy!  I had an E36 M3 back in the day..BMW straight 6 all the way..

 

You could call that blasphemy...Id agree with you....

However, I,  being a muscle car guy/hot rod guy...would call that awesome also...

[Robert Hall]

 

 

 

 

However, I,  being a muscle car guy/hot rod guy...would call that awesome also...

 

I like muscle cars and pony cars also, but like to keep genres separate..   Had a Fox Mustang GT at the same time I had the M3.

[oldshurst442]

 

 

 

 

 

However, I,  being a muscle car guy/hot rod guy...would call that awesome also...

 

I like muscle cars and pony cars also, but like to keep genres separate..   Had a Fox Mustang GT at the same time I had the M3.

 

I could respect that.

But...the two genres that are American Pony Cars like the Mustang and the Camaro and the German sports car coupe based on a sedan like the M3 are slowly becoming one...

The M3 had a V8 last generation.

The Mustang has a turbo 4....so will the Camaro.

The Camaro is based off a sports car sedan that is chasing the 3 Series...

The American Pony Cars can handle European twisties...and narrow roads while the M4 has grown to sit huge American butts...

[smk4565]

To OldsHusrt's point about the Corvette being a 911/Ferrari competitor.  It isn't and you don't want it to be.  If the Corvette was going to go to that level you are looking at $125,000 base price, $175,000 Z06, and if they did another ZR1, possibly $225,000.  Then people that buy Corvettes can't afford a Corvette.  Saying Corvette needs to compete with the Porsche/Ferrari/Lambo is like saying Chevy needs a sedan to fight Bentley.  It isn't Chevy's job to fight the $100k battle, that is Cadillac's.

 

Cadillac is the flagship brand of GM.  The serious technology and high dollar cars belong at Cadillac.  The Corvette should forever be front engine, rear drive, reasonably priced sports car.  If GM wants a mid-engine supercar, then give it to Cadillac to compete with the Audi R8.  If they are going to make a luxury sports car to compete with the 911 and AMG GT, give it to Cadillac.   If GM for some crazy reason wants to build a 1,000 hp hybrid to battle the Ferrari LaFerrari or McLaren P1, give that to Cadillac too.

[Robert Hall]

 

 

 

 

However, I,  being a muscle car guy/hot rod guy...would call that awesome also...

 

I like muscle cars and pony cars also, but like to keep genres separate..   Had a Fox Mustang GT at the same time I had the M3.

 

I could respect that.

But...the two genres that are American Pony Cars like the Mustang and the Camaro and the German sports car coupe based on a sedan like the M3 are slowly becoming one...

The M3 had a V8 last generation.

The Mustang has a turbo 4....so will the Camaro.

The Camaro is based off a sports car sedan that is chasing the 3 Series...

The American Pony Cars can handle European twisties...and narrow roads while the M4 has grown to sit huge American butts...

 

True enough..the latest iterations of Camaro and Mustang have more in common w/ the international RWD sports coupe formula than at any time in the past...

Edited June 16, 2015 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[oldshurst442]

To OldsHusrt's point about the Corvette being a 911/Ferrari competitor.  It isn't and you don't want it to be.  If the Corvette was going to go to that level you are looking at $125,000 base price, $175,000 Z06, and if they did another ZR1, possibly $225,000.  Then people that buy Corvettes can't afford a Corvette.  Saying Corvette needs to compete with the Porsche/Ferrari/Lambo is like saying Chevy needs a sedan to fight Bentley.  It isn't Chevy's job to fight the $100k battle, that is Cadillac's.

 

Cadillac is the flagship brand of GM.  The serious technology and high dollar cars belong at Cadillac.  The Corvette should forever be front engine, rear drive, reasonably priced sports car.  If GM wants a mid-engine supercar, then give it to Cadillac to compete with the Audi R8.  If they are going to make a luxury sports car to compete with the 911 and AMG GT, give it to Cadillac.   If GM for some crazy reason wants to build a 1,000 hp hybrid to battle the Ferrari LaFerrari or McLaren P1, give that to Cadillac too.

Corvette NEEDS to grow to remain relevant.

If Cadillac gets a sports car that wins races at the 24 hour of Lemans, even if its in a different higher category than the Corvette, then the Corvette will cease to be America's Sports Car.

The Cobra threatened the Corvette...the Vette prevailed because it survived the sales war...but it did not survive the performance and handling war...

the Viper came along...it did make a dent in Corvette's image...so much so that Corvette Racing was introduced. Thanx to that, the Corvette has gained a lot of popularity in Europe because of the 24 Hour Lemans victories that the C5R, C6R and now the C7R has achieved there.

 

And THAT is why in 2015, going forward, the Corvette needs to grow...to become its own brand...to compete with Ferrari head on...

If the blue collar guy that made some money and can buy himself a Corvette, suddenly cant buy himself that 250 000 mid-engined Corvette exotic, he could always buy the tried, tested, true Corvette that always was.

That $250 000 mid-engined Corvette exotic is for the Monaco bound snob. And yeah...if Corvettes can compete in France for 24 hours and win...several times in history, then the Corvette could be sold in France to people who vacation in Monaco...because the only Corvettes these people buy...are the classic ones...so...why not the new ones...well...the price tag and the luxury to justify the price tag... is not high enough...

The technology is....but i feel the Corvette has some brand cachet that GM could exploit successfully. 

Cadillac could get a sports car too...mid-engined...rear engined...whatever...but the Corvette needs to grow outside this little box some of us want to limit it to.

 

The Corvette...it was once an inline 6 cylinder car.

The Corvette...it was once a roadster only...

The Corvette...it was once a hardtop coupe only.

The Corvette...between the years 1965 and 1974...it was strictly a muscle car...with big block 396, 427 and 454 engines under the hood that cornered like crap but went in a straight line like hell...

 

Meaning...the Corvette evolved with the times when it needed to to survive...

It became a V8...beacuse stove bolt inline 6 Euro roadster was not the way to go when America was hungry for speed.

It gained a hardtop coupe as to not limit its market.

It became a muscle car...because...well...muscle car era.

It started handling like a Euro car...to better compete in the world stage...

 

So yeah...the Corvette has not exactly stayed exactly to where the original formula was...it moved around.

And...Zora...always wanted to make it into a mid-engine...BEFORE Lambo did theirs...

 

 

Ill agree that Chevrolet dealerships will need to adapt to the Corvette...you cant have a Malibu salesman sell the high end Corvette....hell...a Malibu salesman should not be selling the Corvette as we speak...

Edited June 16, 2015 by oldshurst442

[Drew Dowdell]

BMW drivers wouldn't buy a Chevy even if the Camaro had 1,000 hp.

If you want more performance than a 460 hp Camaro, there is Corvette. That is why you have two sports cars, why there is Cadillac V-series. Porsche doesn't put 500 hp in the Cayman, if you want that you have to get a 911. I'd be in favor of a track model Camaro Z28 with the same 460 hp V8 as the SS, but they could do a rear seat delete and cut weight, beef up the brakes and suspension.

A 270 hp Cadillac CT6 adequate but a 460 hp Camaro is not enough? That doesn't make sense.

A 270 hp CT6 is adequate because there is also a 335hp CT6 and a plug-in Hybrid with 335 hp and 432 lb-ft of torque and a 400 hp twin-turbo V6.... and a twin turbo V8 coming that is most likely well over 500 horsepower.

So would you be in favor of a 335 hp V6 Corvette for $47,000? Personally, I think they should make such a car to expand the Corvette brand, and a V6/8-speed Corvette should still hit 60 in 5 seconds maybe less, it is a 3200 lb car. And there is a V8 and supercharged V8 if you want more.

I do think though that the CTS and CT6 should have a standard V6. I am game for the 2.0T in the ATS, and I would be fine with a 2.0T plug in hybrid on CTS/CT6 because then you are back to 350 hp/torque.

As far as Corvettes sold in other dealerships, absolutely not. It is a Chevy, it gets sold in a Chevy dealership. They don't sell Escalades at the Buick dealership.

I'd be game for the 3.0tt or 3.6tt as a base corvette engine. I don't think the 3.6 na is sporty enough for the corvette.

[Cmicasa the Great]

 

BMW drivers wouldn't buy a Chevy even if the Camaro had 1,000 hp.

 

If you want more performance than a 460 hp Camaro, there is Corvette.  That is why you have two sports cars, why there is Cadillac V-series.  Porsche doesn't put 500 hp in the Cayman, if you want that you have to get a 911.  I'd be in favor of a track model Camaro Z28 with the same 460 hp V8 as the SS, but they could do a rear seat delete and cut weight, beef up the brakes and suspension.

 

A 270 hp Cadillac CT6 adequate but a 460 hp Camaro is not enough?  That doesn't make sense.

 

A 270 hp CT6 is adequate because there is also a 335hp CT6 and a plug-in Hybrid with 335 hp and 432 lb-ft of torque and a 400 hp twin-turbo V6.... and a twin turbo V8 coming that is most likely well over 500 horsepower.

 

 

 

This^^^ HE acts as if the CT6 is in a bubble and a base engine is its only choice. 

[Cmicasa the Great]

I actually agree on most counts.

 

I wholeheartedly think Corvette should be it's own sub-brand now. It's a no-brainer. I would argue against them being on par with Porsche from a fit/finish, material, and build quality stand point, but that can be easily improved upon, and the gap is much smaller than it has been in the past. I have a slightly different idea on prospective models, however.

 

1)Base car- Call it what you will, but make it a simple approach- 5.5 NA V8 with 400-420hp, keep options fairly basic and limited. Price it to start in the mid 40's, let's say 48K.

 

2)Stingray/Grand Sport- Basically equivalent to the C7 we already have. If we're talking next generation of cars, 475-480hp should suffice. Priced from 58K.

 

3)Hybrid model- TT V6 with electric motors powering the front wheels giving it AWD. DCT trans only. About 525hp total combined. Priced from 70K. The techie's choice.

 

4)Z06- Highest front-engined model. Large capacity NA V8 making 600hp. More focused than current Z06. Priced around 85K to start.

 

5)ZR-1/Zora/whatevs- Mid-engine layout, partial carbon fiber construction, RWD, DCT with +650hp NA V8 or smaller capacity TT V8. Start @ 125K.

 

6)No SUV of any kind or any thing remotely similar. MAYBE a coupe-like sport sedan a la 6 Seriec GC, A7, etc.

 

 

Cadillac could maybe have it's own variant of one or two of those. Perhaps a folding hard top variant of #2 or 3 with more of a luxury slant, and then an even higher mid-engine model with over 700hp. All the latest tech to be as light and exotic as possible.

 

I would go so far as to say the Corvette brand could even have a 2.0T or 3.6 V6 model under 400hp that came in under 40K.

 

 

 

Nice plan.. but I think that an Alpha based CUV would be BOSS. Make it two door.. and similar in fact to the Evoque in sleekness

[Drew Dowdell]

 

 

BMW drivers wouldn't buy a Chevy even if the Camaro had 1,000 hp.

 

If you want more performance than a 460 hp Camaro, there is Corvette.  That is why you have two sports cars, why there is Cadillac V-series.  Porsche doesn't put 500 hp in the Cayman, if you want that you have to get a 911.  I'd be in favor of a track model Camaro Z28 with the same 460 hp V8 as the SS, but they could do a rear seat delete and cut weight, beef up the brakes and suspension.

 

A 270 hp Cadillac CT6 adequate but a 460 hp Camaro is not enough?  That doesn't make sense.

 

A 270 hp CT6 is adequate because there is also a 335hp CT6 and a plug-in Hybrid with 335 hp and 432 lb-ft of torque and a 400 hp twin-turbo V6.... and a twin turbo V8 coming that is most likely well over 500 horsepower.

 

 

 

This^^^ HE acts as if the CT6 is in a bubble and a base engine is its only choice. 

 

 

It's a shame the 5-series is only available in a 240hp 4-cylinder that costs as much as $80,000.....

[smk4565]

 

 

BMW drivers wouldn't buy a Chevy even if the Camaro had 1,000 hp.

 

If you want more performance than a 460 hp Camaro, there is Corvette.  That is why you have two sports cars, why there is Cadillac V-series.  Porsche doesn't put 500 hp in the Cayman, if you want that you have to get a 911.  I'd be in favor of a track model Camaro Z28 with the same 460 hp V8 as the SS, but they could do a rear seat delete and cut weight, beef up the brakes and suspension.

 

A 270 hp Cadillac CT6 adequate but a 460 hp Camaro is not enough?  That doesn't make sense.

 

A 270 hp CT6 is adequate because there is also a 335hp CT6 and a plug-in Hybrid with 335 hp and 432 lb-ft of torque and a 400 hp twin-turbo V6.... and a twin turbo V8 coming that is most likely well over 500 horsepower.

 

 

 

This^^^ HE acts as if the CT6 is in a bubble and a base engine is its only choice. 

 

I know it isn't the only choice.  So why not offer a lower priced Corvette with a 335 hp V6 and 8-speed automatic.  15 years ago the Corvette had 345 hp and a 4-speed automatic, granted that V8 had a lot more torque than the V6.  I say make the Corvette more attainable, it is a Chevy, not a $250,000 exotic.  Corvette average buyer age is 59 years old, offering a V6 version at $47,000 could bring that down a bit.  And you still have the 460 hp V8 and 600 hp supercharged V8 as options.

 

As far as the Camaro goes, I think at some point with every car you have to stop, and then another car takes over.  There isn't a 410 hp Impala SS because there is a 410 hp XTS V-sport, and they want you to move up to Cadillac if you want more than the standard car.  Camaro should be $25-50k with the 3 engine choices they have outlined, offer a low weight track package option for enthusiasts.   If 460 hp isn't enough for you, then you buy a Corvette or a Cadillac.  A Camaro costing more than a CTS-V as was the case a couple years ago doesn't make sense.

[Drew Dowdell]

The Camaro costing more than a CTS-V was essentially a limited edition collectors item that either got raced or garaged.  It wasn't a daily driver for pretty much anyone.  The CTS-V is a car that can be a daily driver. 

[Cmicasa the Great]

 

 

 

BMW drivers wouldn't buy a Chevy even if the Camaro had 1,000 hp.

 

If you want more performance than a 460 hp Camaro, there is Corvette.  That is why you have two sports cars, why there is Cadillac V-series.  Porsche doesn't put 500 hp in the Cayman, if you want that you have to get a 911.  I'd be in favor of a track model Camaro Z28 with the same 460 hp V8 as the SS, but they could do a rear seat delete and cut weight, beef up the brakes and suspension.

 

A 270 hp Cadillac CT6 adequate but a 460 hp Camaro is not enough?  That doesn't make sense.

 

A 270 hp CT6 is adequate because there is also a 335hp CT6 and a plug-in Hybrid with 335 hp and 432 lb-ft of torque and a 400 hp twin-turbo V6.... and a twin turbo V8 coming that is most likely well over 500 horsepower.

 

 

 

This^^^ HE acts as if the CT6 is in a bubble and a base engine is its only choice. 

 

I know it isn't the only choice.  So why not offer a lower priced Corvette with a 335 hp V6 and 8-speed automatic.  15 years ago the Corvette had 345 hp and a 4-speed automatic, granted that V8 had a lot more torque than the V6.  I say make the Corvette more attainable, it is a Chevy, not a $250,000 exotic.  Corvette average buyer age is 59 years old, offering a V6 version at $47,000 could bring that down a bit.  And you still have the 460 hp V8 and 600 hp supercharged V8 as options.

 

As far as the Camaro goes, I think at some point with every car you have to stop, and then another car takes over.  There isn't a 410 hp Impala SS because there is a 410 hp XTS V-sport, and they want you to move up to Cadillac if you want more than the standard car.  Camaro should be $25-50k with the 3 engine choices they have outlined, offer a low weight track package option for enthusiasts.   If 460 hp isn't enough for you, then you buy a Corvette or a Cadillac.  A Camaro costing more than a CTS-V as was the case a couple years ago doesn't make sense.

 

 

 

 

Corvette sales don't require that it be more attainable. As a Corvette owner.. I have no issue with the cost as of right now, but really don't see a need for a cheaper model. My model.. is Porsche.. and I think that with proper product the Vette could command a nice bit of what a Porsche goes for if the same type of implication is utilized.

 

The Stingray vs Cayman S , Z06 vs 911 Turbo etc. I think that the Grand Sport with a happy in between should be brought back with about 550HP. There is a whopping 200HP gap between Stingray NPP and Z06

 

 

There isn't a 410HP Impala, because there is a 415HP Chevy SS.

 

Camaro line is fine as well.. They should be charging the prices they are because their competition is charging that price.. for comparative performance and build. 

[smk4565]

Corvette is not on par with a 911.  The Corvette doesn't have the level of customization or personalization or high end luxury features.  The 911 has on the options list to paint the car in any custom color you supply to Porsche, air vents with leather slats, personalized carbon fiber door sills, leather sun visors, Alcantra storage compartment lining, and who wouldn't pay $1,465 for painted air intake grilles, or $1,720 for painted air conditioning vents.

 

A 430 hp 911 is about $120,000, the Turbo is nearing $200,000.  Corvette just isn't in that price strata, nor should it ever be.  The Corvette for 50 years worked well at an inflation adjusted $50,000ish sports car.  I wouldn't mess with the formula that works, and since V8s are making so much more power than even 10-15 years ago, I think there is room for a V6, either NA or turbo.  The Cayman S has 340 hp and it is decently quick.

[Cmicasa the Great]

Corvette is not on par with a 911.  The Corvette doesn't have the level of customization or personalization or high end luxury features.  The 911 has on the options list to paint the car in any custom color you supply to Porsche, air vents with leather slats, personalized carbon fiber door sills, leather sun visors, Alcantra storage compartment lining, and who wouldn't pay $1,465 for painted air intake grilles, or $1,720 for painted air conditioning vents.

 

A 430 hp 911 is about $120,000, the Turbo is nearing $200,000.  Corvette just isn't in that price strata, nor should it ever be.  The Corvette for 50 years worked well at an inflation adjusted $50,000ish sports car.  I wouldn't mess with the formula that works, and since V8s are making so much more power than even 10-15 years ago, I think there is room for a V6, either NA or turbo.  The Cayman S has 340 hp and it is decently quick.

 

 

 

Unfortunately for your Euro biased bull$h!.. the Corvette is on par with the 911 in the ways that matter in terms of a sports car. Where the 911 beats the Corvette is when the 911 charges $50K more to do so... and up to this point.. the last two generations really only appear to be in terms of interiors. If a Vette owner wants to spend $50K more to get about $3K more worth of upgrades in the interior I say "have at it.. U f@#king Moron." That's what I would say to that person

 

BTW altho they haven't sissified it up to the point of Porsche, the Corvette can be customized quite well

[Frisky Dingo]

 

 

 

 

BMW drivers wouldn't buy a Chevy even if the Camaro had 1,000 hp.

A LOT more BMWs have had "Chevy" small blocks installed in them than you would think.

 

But those aren't serious BMW owners, just backyard hacks doing engine swaps on old worn out cars...a GM engine in a BMW kind of defeats the point of having a BMW.

 

 

 

Idk, I'd love to have an LSx in my old E36. 

 

Blasphemy!  I had an E36 M3 back in the day..BMW straight 6 all the way..

 

 

 

I  mean, I'd prefer to do swap an S54 into it, but the cost discrepancy between those two options is......huge.

[oldshurst442]

 

 

Blasphemy!  I had an E36 M3 back in the day..BMW straight 6 all the way..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I  mean, I'd prefer to do swap an S54 into it, but the cost discrepancy between those two options is......huge.

 

Like I said...I respect the decision for power plants to be swapped in their respective brands...but...335 HP and a gutless 270 ft/torque is not exactly my idea of a fun swap...yeah...I know...the BMW experience, especially when a 2002 or M3 is concerned, it aint  solely about  the power...its about the whole driving experience...

In that case...you either stay with the E46 M3 with the S54 or you stay with the Euro spec E36 with the S50B32 with 320 HP and 320 ft/lbs torque...

Id probably try and get that Euro Spec E36 M3...

If not...an alumunium block LS1 from a Vette @ 350 HP and 350 ft. lbs torque gets really interesting on a small and light weight E36...or E46...no need to go with higher numbers as we established that a M3 is not about tire shredding torque...but...we are talking about engine swaps...we might as well make it intersesting...because @ 270 ft.lbs of torque for the S54...yikes....like I said...the Euro Spec M3 E36 is perfection...so if 320 ft.lbs of torque is not enough....why go with less? Might as well go with more....and 350 ft.lbs of torque from an aluminium block LS1 is good enough..,

 

[Frisky Dingo]

In truth, I wouldn't use an LS1, either. They're not worth the extra coin over a 4.8 or 5.3 out of a Silverado that can be had for less than half the cost usually, with less miles. They like boost better, anyway.

[FAPTurbo]

I like the idea of a separated Corvette brand. It means GM has more room to play with engine options, perhaps even a 3.6TT option.

 

I'd even be happy to see a Corvette sedan, one that takes on the Panamera - the Corvette sedan would likely be lighter, faster and more frenetic than that dowdy whale. 

[Robert Hall]

I like the idea of a separated Corvette brand. It means GM has more room to play with engine options, perhaps even a 3.6TT option.

 

I'd even be happy to see a Corvette sedan, one that takes on the Panamera - the Corvette sedan would likely be lighter, faster and more frenetic than that dowdy whale. 

With a Corvette drivetrain and Corvette styling cues on the front and rear, the Fisker Karma would have made a great Corvette sedan...had a rather Corvettish profile, I thought...

Edited June 17, 2015 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[oldshurst442]

 

I like the idea of a separated Corvette brand. It means GM has more room to play with engine options, perhaps even a 3.6TT option.

 

I'd even be happy to see a Corvette sedan, one that takes on the Panamera - the Corvette sedan would likely be lighter, faster and more frenetic than that dowdy whale. 

With a Corvette drivetrain and Corvette styling cues on the front and rear, the Fisker Karma would have made a great Corvette sedan...had a rather Corvettish profile, I thought...

 

I think you are referring to Bob Lutz's Fisker Karma...the Destino

I wholeheartedly agree that it has a Corvettish style...and that it would make a FANTASTIC Corvette Sedan....and this is the car that first got me thinking about Corvettes becoming their own brand. Over at Motor Trend Forums, about the time when Bob Lutz introduced his business plan to buy the left over Karmas and install LS9s in them, the discussion was what we are discussing in this thread. Back then, I was dead against the idea for the Corvette to become its own sub-brand, but Ive had time to ponder...and now I think it should be a done deal. This Fisker body is still stunning. It would still make a great Vette. It sure as hell better looking than the Panamera. Even the Tesla is bland compared to the Fisker.

[Robert Hall]

If there was a Corvette brand, there would be room for a compact entry sports car, ala the Solstice/Sky...and a mid engined Zora flagship that the magazines have been blathering about.   And how about a performance SUV?

[smk4565]

A Corvette sedan to compete with the CTS-V?  Yeah, that makes sense.

[Robert Hall]

A Corvette sedan to compete with the CTS-V?  Yeah, that makes sense.

No, to compete w/ the Panamera...different niche than the CTS-V.  The 5000lb luxury performance hatchback niche..

Edited June 17, 2015 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[smk4565]

If there was a Corvette brand, there would be room for a compact entry sports car, ala the Solstice/Sky...and a mid engined Zora flagship that the magazines have been blathering about.   And how about a performance SUV?

How about Cadillac gets their head out of their ass and starts putting all their SUVs on Alpha and Omega and then you can put 500 hp engines in them and go Porsche Macan/Cayenne or AMG crossover hunting.

[Cmicasa the Great]

A Corvette sedan to compete with the CTS-V?  Yeah, that makes sense.

 

 

While I hadn't included a sedan in the Corvette mix.. I'm pretty sure Ferdinand didn't for Porsche either. That being said,.. currently at GM there are engineering Team Cadillac and engineering Team Chevy/Corvette. They do collaborate, but it is also said (via Tadge) that they compete in outdoing each other. I like like this. It was responsible for a great deal of innovation back in the 50s and 60s from what I'm told and have read. 

 

BTW there is/was a "Corvette Sedan" already being sold for cheaper than the CTS-V from 2008 to present... 

 

 

[El Kabong]

Give the Corvette to GM product dealers who qualify to sell Cadillac. Place it in the Cadillac showroom. Emphasize the "Corvette" over the "Chevy" in branding. Relatively inexpensive to do compared to starting a new brand, and it keeps the sub-Stingray segment for the Camaro. If/when the Zora drops play rock/paper/scissors to see which logo goes on the front.