Cadillac CTS Sales are Down 41% in 2015

smk4565 · June 15, 2015

Ford needs a luxury brand, you can't scale one brand from mainstream all they up as Kia/Hyundai are proving. Luxury cars provide margins, every auto maker wants that.

Problem is Ford's luxury brand builds dressed up Fords and the consumers know it. Cadillac sort of has one foot in the RWD performance luxury philosophy and one foot in the build from the Chevy parts bin mentality. That is why Cadillac is more successful than Lincoln, but not as successful as the Germans. Simple as that.

HA! That is funny!

Cadillac is going away from that.

The XTS will be history, so is the SRX...now...what bones will the SRX have? Well, it might not be bespoke Cadillac trickled down to Chevy like the Alpha platform is....but then again...a new SRX might very well be on the Alpha platform...but then again...it might have Chevy bones first...like the 'Slade is....so what?

On another thread... you admitted to knowing that in Europe...both BMW and Mercedes use the 3 Series and 2 Series and the C Class and E Class and now with the CLA as mainstream and fleet vehicles...but I guess that is OK with you...but God forbid that GM does that with Cadillac and their lesser vehicles...

Oh...Audi...yeah..lets talk about Audi...actually...YOU tell ME what Audi platform is actually bespoke to Audi...a platform that is NOT used by Volkswagen or Seat...on the lesser vehicles of course...but then again...a Cayenne Porsche is also a VW...a Audi A8 is also a Volkswagen...I guess that is a pass because the VW versions are expensive as hell...but then again...Chevy Tahoes dont come cheap either...

Cadillac is going away from it, but not there yet, that is why I said they are sort of split right now between 2 worlds. But even the ATS/CTS/CT6 turbo 4 and V6 are the same engine in a Camaro.

The Germans can fleet sale in Europe because Cadillac, Infiniti, Acura, Lincoln aren't there, and Lexus is a blip on the radar. If Cadillac fleets themselves out here, it would probably hurt their image even more.

Audi has a lot of it's own stuff. The MLB platform is used on Audi A4-A8 and Porsche Macan, the 3.0 supercharged V6 is Audi only, the 4.0 TT V8 is Audi/Bentley only, the W12 is Audi/Bentley only, and the Quattro AWD system is different than the VW 4Motion system. Quattro runs in a 50/50 split, while VW is primarily FWD until the rear wheels slip. The Audi A3/Q3 are using a VW chassis, engine and awd system. The Toureg/Q7/Cayenne share a lot of mechanicals also.

smk4565 · June 15, 2015

Hard to compare where people are going, you have to compare these brands where they are now. You can't say that in 5 years Lincoln will have product X or Buick will have product Y and that will put them on par with Lexus. Hyundai built the Equus, they aren't exactly on par with Lexus as a brand.

Buick does not compete with Lexus, that is Cadillac's job. And right now the IS outsells the ATS, the RX outsells the XTS, the ES outsells the XTS, the GS and CTS sell about the same, Cadillac doesn't even have an LS460 competitor. Cadillac has the Escalade over the LX570 as their big advantage over Lexus.

This is part of what holds Cadillac back. GM wants GMC Denali to be a luxury truck brand, they want Buick to compete with Lexus, the Corvette has to be the fastest car at GM, etc. Where does all that leave Cadillac? The fastest car at GM should be a Cadillac, give them a mid-engine V12 super car, or twin turbo V8 hybrid like the Porsche 918 or McLaren P1. The most luxurious crossovers, best looking convertibles, most luxurious sedans at GM should all be Cadillacs. The worst Cadillac product should always be better than the best Buick, Checy or GMC product. That is what a flagship brand does. The worst Bentley is better than the best Audi for example.

oldshurst442 · June 15, 2015

Ford needs a luxury brand, you can't scale one brand from mainstream all they up as Kia/Hyundai are proving. Luxury cars provide margins, every auto maker wants that.

Problem is Ford's luxury brand builds dressed up Fords and the consumers know it. Cadillac sort of has one foot in the RWD performance luxury philosophy and one foot in the build from the Chevy parts bin mentality. That is why Cadillac is more successful than Lincoln, but not as successful as the Germans. Simple as that.

HA! That is funny!

Cadillac is going away from that.

The XTS will be history, so is the SRX...now...what bones will the SRX have? Well, it might not be bespoke Cadillac trickled down to Chevy like the Alpha platform is....but then again...a new SRX might very well be on the Alpha platform...but then again...it might have Chevy bones first...like the 'Slade is....so what?

On another thread... you admitted to knowing that in Europe...both BMW and Mercedes use the 3 Series and 2 Series and the C Class and E Class and now with the CLA as mainstream and fleet vehicles...but I guess that is OK with you...but God forbid that GM does that with Cadillac and their lesser vehicles...

Oh...Audi...yeah..lets talk about Audi...actually...YOU tell ME what Audi platform is actually bespoke to Audi...a platform that is NOT used by Volkswagen or Seat...on the lesser vehicles of course...but then again...a Cayenne Porsche is also a VW...a Audi A8 is also a Volkswagen...I guess that is a pass because the VW versions are expensive as hell...but then again...Chevy Tahoes dont come cheap either...

Cadillac is going away from it, but not there yet, that is why I said they are sort of split right now between 2 worlds. But even the ATS/CTS/CT6 turbo 4 and V6 are the same engine in a Camaro.

The Germans can fleet sale in Europe because Cadillac, Infiniti, Acura, Lincoln aren't there, and Lexus is a blip on the radar. If Cadillac fleets themselves out here, it would probably hurt their image even more.

Audi has a lot of it's own stuff. The MLB platform is used on Audi A4-A8 and Porsche Macan, the 3.0 supercharged V6 is Audi only, the 4.0 TT V8 is Audi/Bentley only, the W12 is Audi/Bentley only, and the Quattro AWD system is different than the VW 4Motion system. Quattro runs in a 50/50 split, while VW is primarily FWD until the rear wheels slip. The Audi A3/Q3 are using a VW chassis, engine and awd system. The Toureg/Q7/Cayenne share a lot of mechanicals also.

Audi A4...whose platform underpins the Passat...and the Passat in North America has been dummied down and mainstreamed...yeah I know...not exactly the A4 platform as those ties have been severed...because the Passat uses a new form of platform that uses bits and pieces from other VW group platforms...ingenious...

The AWD drive systems....sure different...but the engines are not...all the 4 cylinder stuff that goes into the lesser Audis are basically the same as the VW engines...so...exactly like GM/Chevy/Cadillac...and like you said...Cadillac is going away from that...yet VW/Audi is not...

When Cadillac is on its way with new bespoke stuff...VW will be sharing its stuff for the low end Audis...

But somehow, in your mind, that does not cheapen Audi...yet as we speak...this is what cheapens Cadillac for you...

It is a strange way of looking at things...to justify your biases...its all good....as we all have biases...Its just weird to me how enthusiasts can have double standards like that....

As long as you read my posts and you acknowledge what I have to say is good enough for me...thank-you for that...I appreciate the time you give me.

I also appreciate your thoughts...I learn from you... and that is why I am here...to learn...

Suaviloquent · June 15, 2015

I agree with everything/every person here, except Wings or the notion that VW Group is set up to implode in a bad economy. It's not gonna happen. VW Group has mastered the art of platform sharing, parts bin sharing and power-train sharing. They have reach everywhere. And what Audi brand snob doesn't like to here that recently Audi created synthetic gasoline from waste biomass. Not ethanol; no.... real 100% pure no sulfur 100 octane gas. Anyways.

But I think too many people are losing track of the thread. We should be focusing on Cadillac, not Lincoln or anyone else in particular fan or brand. Lincoln doesn't even belong here. It's the best of the garbage luxury brands or basically the best premium package available on your lowly Ford. That isn't saying much.

One Continental won't save Lincoln or further it's aspirations.

As for the CTS; I think it's too early to say that GM is able to hold the line on prices only because of the Camaro. Sure it's a volume seller for an important platform; but sales really do hurt right now. The Escalade was always a winner; but it sure can't be the breadwinner all the time or be the Lebron to Cadillac's Cavaliers. And Johan's persistence in driving away the very buyers he needs to court is a slap in the face of Cadillac's efforts.

I think the approach of building kickass cars and being humble, quiet and really giving customers not value; but a pure luxury experience with sportyness as the side benefit of all of the engineering is the best approach. That's what the Germans did at first; then the smugness came in and well, here we are.

You cannot dare greatly when you refuse to build the cars that everyone dared you to build, as in the Elmiraj. It'll come eventually; but by that time it'll be too late. Mercedes and BMW and Audi are sitting on piles and piles and piles of cash. Heck, even Apple could buy Tesla in a heartbeat and buy out all of GM, and buy out all of basically everyone.

smk4565 · June 15, 2015

I am not an Audi fan, but they basically only share the turbo 4 with VW. Audi has it's own 6, 8 and 12 cylinder engines. Most Cadillac V6s are the same 3.6 liter in a Chevy, with the exception of the twin turbo V6s in the V-sports. Cadillac doesn't have their own V8, doesn't have a V12.

I think Audi is the worst of the 3 German brands though, Cadillac needs to be aiming above them. I think the CT6 will actually make little impact for Cadilac, changing the ATS and CTS names and having to spend dollars on new marketing is a risky sales move. The Escalade can't hold them up forever.

Cmicasa the Great · June 15, 2015

Ford needs a luxury brand, you can't scale one brand from mainstream all they up as Kia/Hyundai are proving. Luxury cars provide margins, every auto maker wants that.

Problem is Ford's luxury brand builds dressed up Fords and the consumers know it. Cadillac sort of has one foot in the RWD performance luxury philosophy and one foot in the build from the Chevy parts bin mentality. That is why Cadillac is more successful than Lincoln, but not as successful as the Germans. Simple as that.

HA! That is funny!

Cadillac is going away from that.

The XTS will be history, so is the SRX...now...what bones will the SRX have? Well, it might not be bespoke Cadillac trickled down to Chevy like the Alpha platform is....but then again...a new SRX might very well be on the Alpha platform...but then again...it might have Chevy bones first...like the 'Slade is....so what?

On another thread... you admitted to knowing that in Europe...both BMW and Mercedes use the 3 Series and 2 Series and the C Class and E Class and now with the CLA as mainstream and fleet vehicles...but I guess that is OK with you...but God forbid that GM does that with Cadillac and their lesser vehicles...

Oh...Audi...yeah..lets talk about Audi...actually...YOU tell ME what Audi platform is actually bespoke to Audi...a platform that is NOT used by Volkswagen or Seat...on the lesser vehicles of course...but then again...a Cayenne Porsche is also a VW...a Audi A8 is also a Volkswagen...I guess that is a pass because the VW versions are expensive as hell...but then again...Chevy Tahoes dont come cheap either...

Cadillac is going away from it, but not there yet, that is why I said they are sort of split right now between 2 worlds. But even the ATS/CTS/CT6 turbo 4 and V6 are the same engine in a Camaro.

The Germans can fleet sale in Europe because Cadillac, Infiniti, Acura, Lincoln aren't there, and Lexus is a blip on the radar. If Cadillac fleets themselves out here, it would probably hurt their image even more.

Audi has a lot of it's own stuff. The MLB platform is used on Audi A4-A8 and Porsche Macan, the 3.0 supercharged V6 is Audi only, the 4.0 TT V8 is Audi/Bentley only, the W12 is Audi/Bentley only, and the Quattro AWD system is different than the VW 4Motion system. Quattro runs in a 50/50 split, while VW is primarily FWD until the rear wheels slip. The Audi A3/Q3 are using a VW chassis, engine and awd system. The Toureg/Q7/Cayenne share a lot of mechanicals also.

Audi is FWD based and in their homeland and the rest of Europe they are pushing out FWD vehicles even in the A8, their flagship sedan. Comparing Cadillac, Lexus and Audi to BMW and Benz is a hard thing because they are given a pass on parts bin sharing because they essentially have no "parts bin."

Cadillac, beginning with the CT6 is getting an exclusive AWD system with adjustable variation on setting. Variable depending on the drive mode. Sport mode gets a 20/80 front/rear split, Tour gets 40/60, and Snow mode splits it right down the middle.

The Voltec system has been modified as well for Cadillac, along with the Omega platform for now being exclusive to Cadillac.

Cmicasa the Great · June 15, 2015

Hard to compare where people are going, you have to compare these brands where they are now. You can't say that in 5 years Lincoln will have product X or Buick will have product Y and that will put them on par with Lexus. Hyundai built the Equus, they aren't exactly on par with Lexus as a brand.

Buick does not compete with Lexus, that is Cadillac's job. And right now the IS outsells the ATS, the RX outsells the XTS, the ES outsells the XTS, the GS and CTS sell about the same, Cadillac doesn't even have an LS460 competitor. Cadillac has the Escalade over the LX570 as their big advantage over Lexus.

This is part of what holds Cadillac back. GM wants GMC Denali to be a luxury truck brand, they want Buick to compete with Lexus, the Corvette has to be the fastest car at GM, etc. Where does all that leave Cadillac? The fastest car at GM should be a Cadillac, give them a mid-engine V12 super car, or twin turbo V8 hybrid like the Porsche 918 or McLaren P1. The most luxurious crossovers, best looking convertibles, most luxurious sedans at GM should all be Cadillacs. The worst Cadillac product should always be better than the best Buick, Checy or GMC product. That is what a flagship brand does. The worst Bentley is better than the best Audi for example.

Buick competes with Lexus in a sense. Lexus is comprised of luxury vehicles AND premium vehicles. Their bulk sales are premium. The RX and ES are in no way a luxury vehicle.. they are premium. The NX is premium. Meaning 70% of their sales came from the PREMIUM market in May. Buick does it differently. They are premium thru out with the Enclave being a luxury vehicle for the most part. Cadillac is all luxury, even with the SRX. The XTS shares its underpinning with Chevy and Buick.. but their is no way in hell anyone can equate the XTS as anything other than luxury. "Traditional luxury" is the best detractor one could have for pertaining to the XTS.

Having Denali is not a deterrent for Cadillac to have the Escalade as a single SUV choice under the brand. GMC should function as a up-level alternative to Chevy. As it does.. very well.

The fastest car at GM should be the CORVETTE.. the Corvette just shouldn't be a Chevy. The Corvette should be sold thru Cadillac dealers so that its service level will be up to par with its price. As it stands... Chevy dealers do not have the level of service amenities or coddling that is necessary to handle the buyer of a $60-130K sports car. Cadillac does. Cadillac should have a version of the Corvette, perhaps augmented to be a mid-engine car like the ZORA is rumored to be. It is my opinion that Corvette.. as long as it is under Chevy's dealership network should not in anyway get a version of the proposed possible ZORA.

Drew Dowdell · June 15, 2015

hyper, if you believe Lincoln is no better than Buick, then how would you explain Ford's lessor premium trim that match or exceed Buick with,

Focus Titanium

Fusion Titanium

Taurus Titanium - Doesn't Exist per the Ford Website

Escape Titanium

Edge Titanium

Explorer Platinum

Flex Titanium - Doesn't Exist per the Ford Website

Expedition Platinum

F-150 Platinum

And real soon, SD Platinum to go with their many other premium trims.

So of all those premium trimmed Ford brand vehicles, which one does Buick exceed in terms of luxury and features? Because I don't see one. I do see a lot of Ford vehicles that offer luxury features that Buick still does not (self park, massaging seats, etc.)

Clearly then, Lincoln is above Buick.

I don't think any of those titanium trims exceed Buick where Buick actually has a model to compete with (i.e. there is no point bringing up a Ford F-250 SD Titanium).

The titanium trims and platinum trims are nice, but they do not replace much of the interior bits nor do they include the extra luxury feeling that Quiet tuning brings. This is even a noticeable difference between the Buicks and the premium trims from Chevrolet and GMCs. The Enclave feels more luxurious than the Acadia Denali for example. A Ford Fusion Titanium, while nice, is still not to the level of luxury feel as a top line Buick Lacrosse or Regal GS.

Drew Dowdell · June 15, 2015

Denali is the "Oldsmobile" of the truck market. Premium and luxurious without the pretentiousness of Cadillac. Something the CEO of a small company can buy without alarming shareholders.

June 15, 2015

Guys, I simply countered a remark that believe that Lincoln competes with Buick, which is clearly an opinion of theirs, with my own opinion, that Ford already competes with Buick and in some cases bests them. And the trucks I listed obviously compete with GM’s premium GMC brand. And I stated all that to showcase how I believe it is better for a corporation (not customer) to reduce complexity and costs through less redundancy. As for Premium trim names in every segment, I really don’t pay attention to closely. Thanks for pointing out. But once again, Ford is increasing the brands image with vehicles like the Platinum Explorer and whatever they call the new Edge. Both of which are the equal or better to a Buick. Nothing to argue there. And that is true with most segments, and with new Taurus and Fusion updates, will only increase that.

Now, I also recognize that Buick is stepping up its game. No doubt. Does not negate what I said however.

smk4565 · June 15, 2015

The fastest car at GM should be the CORVETTE.. the Corvette just shouldn't be a Chevy. The Corvette should be sold thru Cadillac dealers so that its service level will be up to par with its price. As it stands... Chevy dealers do not have the level of service amenities or coddling that is necessary to handle the buyer of a $60-130K sports car. Cadillac does. Cadillac should have a version of the Corvette, perhaps augmented to be a mid-engine car like the ZORA is rumored to be. It is my opinion that Corvette.. as long as it is under Chevy's dealership network should not in anyway get a version of the proposed possible ZORA.

This could be a separate argument over what the Corvette should be. The Corvette was always more of a value sports car, at like $50k. But the Corvette fan base has been willing to spend more money on Corvettes so they added higher trim levels. I don't think any Corvette should top $100,000 though. If GM wants a 600 hp, 200 mph car then that should be a Cadillac. Corvette is a Chevy, you can't sell it at a Cadillac dealer or make Corvette it's own brand. So if Chevy can't handle people buying a $100k car they shouldn't sell one. Case in point, a top end Chevrolet Corvette costs more than any Cadillac. Why does a Chevy cost more than a top end Cadillac? You can't buy a VW that costs more than an S8 or R8, can't buy an Audi that costs more than a Bentley, etc.

Drew Dowdell · June 15, 2015

Guys, I simply countered a remark that believe that Lincoln competes with Buick, which is clearly an opinion of theirs, with my own opinion, that Ford already competes with Buick and in some cases bests them. And the trucks I listed obviously compete with GM’s premium GMC brand. And I stated all that to showcase how I believe it is better for a corporation (not customer) to reduce complexity and costs through less redundancy. As for Premium trim names in every segment, I really don’t pay attention to closely. Thanks for pointing out. But once again, Ford is increasing the brands image with vehicles like the Platinum Explorer and whatever they call the new Edge. Both of which are the equal or better to a Buick. Nothing to argue there. And that is true with most segments, and with new Taurus and Fusion updates, will only increase that.

Now, I also recognize that Buick is stepping up its game. No doubt. Does not negate what I said however.

Buick is a tweener right now. They are more than premium Chevy but not quite Cadillac. Buick and Lincoln have some overlap in some key areas. The Enclave and MKX have significant overlap. The Lacrosse and MKS have significant overlap. The MKC and forthcoming Buick Envision will have significant overlap.. .and if Buick builds the Avenir it will have significant overlap with the Continental. Lincoln doesn't play in the smaller end of the market from Regal on down even though there is some price overlap there, the vehicles at Buick are smaller.

Drew Dowdell · June 15, 2015

Guys, I simply countered a remark that believe that Lincoln competes with Buick, which is clearly an opinion of theirs, with my own opinion, that Ford already competes with Buick and in some cases bests them. And the trucks I listed obviously compete with GM’s premium GMC brand. And I stated all that to showcase how I believe it is better for a corporation (not customer) to reduce complexity and costs through less redundancy. As for Premium trim names in every segment, I really don’t pay attention to closely. Thanks for pointing out. But once again, Ford is increasing the brands image with vehicles like the Platinum Explorer and whatever they call the new Edge. Both of which are the equal or better to a Buick. Nothing to argue there. And that is true with most segments, and with new Taurus and Fusion updates, will only increase that.

Now, I also recognize that Buick is stepping up its game. No doubt. Does not negate what I said however.

The Explorer Platinum being better than the Enclave is more about the under the hood hardware and the extra technology bits. I fully agree that the Enclave needs the option of a more powerful engine and some more of the modern tech bits that the Explorer just gained. However, in terms of a luxury experience, I still think the Enclave does it better with its interior trim, quiet tuning, and luxury feel.

surreal1272 · June 15, 2015

Guys, I simply countered a remark that believe that Lincoln competes with Buick, which is clearly an opinion of theirs, with my own opinion, that Ford already competes with Buick and in some cases bests them. And the trucks I listed obviously compete with GM’s premium GMC brand. And I stated all that to showcase how I believe it is better for a corporation (not customer) to reduce complexity and costs through less redundancy. As for Premium trim names in every segment, I really don’t pay attention to closely. Thanks for pointing out. But once again, Ford is increasing the brands image with vehicles like the Platinum Explorer and whatever they call the new Edge. Both of which are the equal or better to a Buick. Nothing to argue there. And that is true with most segments, and with new Taurus and Fusion updates, will only increase that.

Now, I also recognize that Buick is stepping up its game. No doubt. Does not negate what I said however.

It doesn't support it either because you still haven't shown one true example where Ford competes with Buick. Just mentioning the trim level models that you THINK competes with Buick doesn't make it so.

June 15, 2015

Guys, I simply countered a remark that believe that Lincoln competes with Buick, which is clearly an opinion of theirs, with my own opinion, that Ford already competes with Buick and in some cases bests them. And the trucks I listed obviously compete with GM’s premium GMC brand. And I stated all that to showcase how I believe it is better for a corporation (not customer) to reduce complexity and costs through less redundancy. As for Premium trim names in every segment, I really don’t pay attention to closely. Thanks for pointing out. But once again, Ford is increasing the brands image with vehicles like the Platinum Explorer and whatever they call the new Edge. Both of which are the equal or better to a Buick. Nothing to argue there. And that is true with most segments, and with new Taurus and Fusion updates, will only increase that.

Now, I also recognize that Buick is stepping up its game. No doubt. Does not negate what I said however.

It doesn't support it either because you still haven't shown one true example where Ford competes with Buick. Just mentioning the trim level models that you THINK competes with Buick doesn't make it so.

Lots of people have opinions surreal. Why do you only focus on mine?

surreal1272 · June 15, 2015

Guys, I simply countered a remark that believe that Lincoln competes with Buick, which is clearly an opinion of theirs, with my own opinion, that Ford already competes with Buick and in some cases bests them. And the trucks I listed obviously compete with GM’s premium GMC brand. And I stated all that to showcase how I believe it is better for a corporation (not customer) to reduce complexity and costs through less redundancy. As for Premium trim names in every segment, I really don’t pay attention to closely. Thanks for pointing out. But once again, Ford is increasing the brands image with vehicles like the Platinum Explorer and whatever they call the new Edge. Both of which are the equal or better to a Buick. Nothing to argue there. And that is true with most segments, and with new Taurus and Fusion updates, will only increase that.

Now, I also recognize that Buick is stepping up its game. No doubt. Does not negate what I said however.

It doesn't support it either because you still haven't shown one true example where Ford competes with Buick. Just mentioning the trim level models that you THINK competes with Buick doesn't make it so.

Lots of people have opinions surreal. Why do you only focus on mine?

Why do you only focus on me instead of my actual comment? You made the initial statement that Ford competes with Buick and all I asked (and several others asked btw, in case you missed that little fact) is for you to actually prove how they compete. Mentioning the trim levels of Ford does not equal to competing with Buick. It's that simple.

June 15, 2015

Guys, I simply countered a remark that believe that Lincoln competes with Buick, which is clearly an opinion of theirs, with my own opinion, that Ford already competes with Buick and in some cases bests them. And the trucks I listed obviously compete with GM’s premium GMC brand. And I stated all that to showcase how I believe it is better for a corporation (not customer) to reduce complexity and costs through less redundancy. As for Premium trim names in every segment, I really don’t pay attention to closely. Thanks for pointing out. But once again, Ford is increasing the brands image with vehicles like the Platinum Explorer and whatever they call the new Edge. Both of which are the equal or better to a Buick. Nothing to argue there. And that is true with most segments, and with new Taurus and Fusion updates, will only increase that.

Now, I also recognize that Buick is stepping up its game. No doubt. Does not negate what I said however.

It doesn't support it either because you still haven't shown one true example where Ford competes with Buick. Just mentioning the trim level models that you THINK competes with Buick doesn't make it so.

Lots of people have opinions surreal. Why do you only focus on mine?

Why do you only focus on me instead of my actual comment? You made the initial statement that Ford competes with Buick and all I asked (and several others asked btw, in case you missed that little fact) is for you to actually prove how they compete. Mentioning the trim levels of Ford does not equal to competing with Buick. It's that simple.

you can disagree with my opinion that Ford premium trim on occasion bests Buick, but it is absolutely not even a point of contention that they compete.

surreal1272 · June 15, 2015

Guys, I simply countered a remark that believe that Lincoln competes with Buick, which is clearly an opinion of theirs, with my own opinion, that Ford already competes with Buick and in some cases bests them. And the trucks I listed obviously compete with GM’s premium GMC brand. And I stated all that to showcase how I believe it is better for a corporation (not customer) to reduce complexity and costs through less redundancy. As for Premium trim names in every segment, I really don’t pay attention to closely. Thanks for pointing out. But once again, Ford is increasing the brands image with vehicles like the Platinum Explorer and whatever they call the new Edge. Both of which are the equal or better to a Buick. Nothing to argue there. And that is true with most segments, and with new Taurus and Fusion updates, will only increase that.

Now, I also recognize that Buick is stepping up its game. No doubt. Does not negate what I said however.

It doesn't support it either because you still haven't shown one true example where Ford competes with Buick. Just mentioning the trim level models that you THINK competes with Buick doesn't make it so.

Lots of people have opinions surreal. Why do you only focus on mine?

Why do you only focus on me instead of my actual comment? You made the initial statement that Ford competes with Buick and all I asked (and several others asked btw, in case you missed that little fact) is for you to actually prove how they compete. Mentioning the trim levels of Ford does not equal to competing with Buick. It's that simple.

you can disagree with my opinion that Ford premium trim on occasion bests Buick, but it is absolutely not even a point of contention that they compete.

Again, no proof, just the opinion of a Ford employee with no facts to back it up. Thanks.

June 15, 2015

Ford employee huh. That is your argument to back up YOUR disagreement.

Look, what you are asking is ridiculous – showing proof that vehicles priced similar with similar features and functions and demographics are in fact competing. I would be just as uninterested in doing the leg work YOU request, if you were to ask me to prove that a Mustang competes with a Challenger. It is absolutely NOT different, what you are asking.

surreal1272 · June 15, 2015

Ford employee huh. That is your argument to back up YOUR disagreement.

Look, what you are asking is ridiculous – showing proof that vehicles priced similar with similar features and functions and demographics are in fact competing. I would be just as uninterested in doing the leg work YOU request, if you were to ask me to prove that a Mustang competes with a Challenger. It is absolutely NOT different, what you are asking.

No. That is not my only argument and I have given the reasons already, as have several other posters. Oh, and you should do the leg work since you are the one making the assertion that they do compete. The burden of that proof is clearly not on me. Funny how you just focus on me now when others like hyper6 have debunked you in great detail as well. Notice, as well, that no one is backing up your assertion.

June 15, 2015

Ford employee huh. That is your argument to back up YOUR disagreement.

Look, what you are asking is ridiculous – showing proof that vehicles priced similar with similar features and functions and demographics are in fact competing. I would be just as uninterested in doing the leg work YOU request, if you were to ask me to prove that a Mustang competes with a Challenger. It is absolutely NOT different, what you are asking.

No. That is not my only argument and I have given the reasons already, as have several other posters. Oh, and you should do the leg work since you are the one making the assertion that they do compete. The burden of that proof is clearly not on me. Funny how you just focus on me now when others like hyper6 have debunked you in great detail as well. Notice, as well, that no one is backing up your assertion.

Well then this is where we will disagree again. Mercury used to compete with Buick, and once Ford eliminated Mercury as part of their global simplification plan, and even upped the ante with higher levels of luxury features shared in their volume brand both here in NA and even globally as well, and even stated as much many times in the past…..I see no reason to prove to YOU what seems to be well known industry wide. The burden then, is on YOU. You disagree, so just give me one simple fact that suggests as much. You can’t. Only your opinion. Fine. I am OK with that.

Cmicasa the Great · June 15, 2015

The thing is that Wings U are wanting Lincoln to be something it is not.. to compete where it doesn't. U wish Lincoln to be seen as an alternative to the #1 Luxury brand, currently Benz, when it is not. It would be like me trying to compare a Cadillac with a Rolls. Once upon a time, but not in my life-time or yours. Buick on the other hand can be called Premium with no red-flags being raised. It is a premium brand.. as is Lincoln. Lincoln, nor Buick have't have the cachet, the platforms, or even the wherewithal to be mentioned in the same sentence as Benz, BMW, Audi, or even its origins sister, Cadillac. Lexus.. because of the LS, GS, and LX have a real claim to being luxury.. Cadillac is aspiring to be what it once was WITH actual cars that fit the bill. Are luxury buyers jumping ship from the Germans to experience it in droves.. not yet. Much of this is Cadillac's own damn fault.. and has nothing to do with the cars it HAS, but the cars it DOESN'T.

BUICK.. and Lincoln are EXACTLY the same business model. In fact,. if GM and Ford were to ever merge... it would be these two names that would have to be decided upon which to keep.. not Cadillac.

Lincoln's damage currently is much worse than that which was Cadillac's back in 2002. Facts:

In 2002 when the CTS debuted:

1) Cadillac was looked upon as a "older, snooty, people brand" but not damaged. The issue was that Benz, Caddy's truest competitor at the time (Not BMW) was moving towards the BMW model with SPORT/LUX while Cadillac was still pushing Luxo-Floaty rides like the Deville.

2) Cadillac,ironically, followed the Lincoln idea in '98 with the Escalade intro instantly bringing youth into the brand..

3) The CTS was so polarizing as a Cadillac that it instantly peaked interest from people who would otherwise pass it by.

4) The Intro of the XLR, SRX, and new STS was icing on the cake. The fact that none of those vehicles survived the real change at Cadillac.. 2009's BK, was quite possibly part of the plan.

5) Cadillac actually has had unique attributes that none of the other GM vehicles have had. Sure the Escalade shares with the Tahoe and Yukon.. but it is truly elevated in a way that I have to turn my head away when an Escalade pulls side by side.. especially a Platinum. Engine.. AWD.. Looks.. Interior.. Suspension... brand Cachet... It also shared with Saab... the BLS/9-3 and the SRX/9-4.. but neither ever made it here to it's main market.

On to Buick...

Buick was EXACTLY where Lincoln is... in 2007 when the Enclave appeared... but only in the United States. Buick has the advantage of China.. and interesting enuff Opel (Side Note: Buick is the largest reason why GM does not want to kill Opel). Personally I love the way GM has handled the Buick brand... and its sales in the US are seriously coming up in a way that I'm betting many pre-BK execs did not expect. I mean there was debate on whether it.. or Pontiac should have survived. Of course Lincoln does not have Buick's clout in China.. it does not have Opel (Europe)... it only has the United States of which last year it didn't even brake 95K sales. Buick on the other hand sold 228K in the US.. and 1.1 Million abroad, mostly in China last year. IN FACT... Buick is inadvertently keeping Opel alive thru out this shared.. by Ford, GM(Opel), and Fiat Euro issue. Buick... with VERANO.. ENCORE.. REGAL (yup Regal) LaCrosse.. and Enclave are killing... My only issue really stems from why isn't Buick pushing the full line-up on Opel.. and vice versa. Who wouldn't love to see an Astra OPC here in the U.S.?

Observations from the last NYIAS revealed a weird dynamic in the Big Apple.. GM somehow had made Buicks as buzz worthy as Lexus.. Point of fact. . there were actually more people sitting in Buick's Encore.. Regal, LaX, Enclave, and Verano than their closest counterparts at Lexus. The Enclave was a curious thing.. as I heard several people commenting on its size.. and essentially how it had a more luxo interior than the RX, but with more space.

The HARD PART

This is not a congratulatory to Cadillac, Buick, or GM. They still have a lot of work to do. BUt it is a reality check to Lincoln and Ford...

I kno it is very hard to have a legitimate discussion with some of U in the thread because many impose such an asinine look on everything said about Ford that it moots the original objective of me, the OP.

That being said.. I am not trying to offend or belittle Lincoln. Point of fact I am offering a way in which it could survive the market turbulence it is experiencing by, ironically because of your statement, "NOT offer(ing) products that start at $23,080." Quite frankly they should!!! Having their entry level starting above Cadillac's.. BMW's... and even Benzes'... is UNBELIEVABLE. I was discussing it with a friend the other day.. and quite frankly that brand strategy automatically limits their sales to that 6K-7K monthly they are at now. SOme tout it like some sort of pride.. that because Ford believes that Lincoln is a $37K-$70K commander... the actual buyer does too. It does not.. and YES.. sales speak volumes to that. This is the one segment where sales are completely relevant to the desirability of the vehicle. Only in the super-Luxo status of limited Bentley, Rolls, and Porsche non-Sports cars can limited sales be immune. A Full-Line Luxo builder??? Sales are an indicator of desirability. Right now.. in the U.S. at least.. BMW, Benz, and Lexus are supreme in that regard.. but Cadillac.. finally with proper product is coming on strong. They need marketing. They need MORE of that product. Cadillac and Lincoln currently have the EXACT same amount of names... yet Cadillac at a higher ATP is selling almost 10K more per month.. with that so-called "handicap" Buick selling 15K as well. GM was smart as hell with this strategy.. because if gets to service customers who want luxo.. but at a slightly lessor price. Despite the Verano starting at $23K.. it is ATPing at closer to $30K In a tiered strategy the Buick brand should STOP.. where Caddy begins. Profits soar. Hence the reason why VW wanted Porsche despite Audi...

Cadillac is now able to offer a $100K Omega.. or $200K Cien... This is the flaw of Lexus. They are a tweener trying to sell the consumer on a $100K LS460h and a $400K LF-A on the same showroom floor as an ES350.. that has the same engine.. EXACTLY The same engine as the Camry. No options.. just that. Yes an ATS has the 2.5L from the Malibu in it.. but it is an OPTIONAL engine. The ES has no options. Not to mention the ATS and Malibu/Regal have virtually nothing else in common. Same can't be said for the Camry/ES.. nor the Fusion/MKZ

Drew Dowdell · June 15, 2015

Ford employee huh. That is your argument to back up YOUR disagreement.

Look, what you are asking is ridiculous – showing proof that vehicles priced similar with similar features and functions and demographics are in fact competing. I would be just as uninterested in doing the leg work YOU request, if you were to ask me to prove that a Mustang competes with a Challenger. It is absolutely NOT different, what you are asking.

No. That is not my only argument and I have given the reasons already, as have several other posters. Oh, and you should do the leg work since you are the one making the assertion that they do compete. The burden of that proof is clearly not on me. Funny how you just focus on me now when others like hyper6 have debunked you in great detail as well. Notice, as well, that no one is backing up your assertion.

Well then this is where we will disagree again. Mercury used to compete with Buick, and once Ford eliminated Mercury as part of their global simplification plan, and even upped the ante with higher levels of luxury features shared in their volume brand both here in NA and even globally as well, and even stated as much many times in the past…..I see no reason to prove to YOU what seems to be well known industry wide. The burden then, is on YOU. You disagree, so just give me one simple fact that suggests as much. You can’t. Only your opinion. Fine. I am OK with that.

Mercury hasn't competed with Buick since the late 70's at best. Once the big Cougar and big Marquis died, Mercury was little more than a Ford re-grille. Even though Buick played in the some of the same size segments, pretty much all of their cars from the Regal on up were higher end vehicles compared to their Mercery counterparts of similar size. Even the Skyhawk was considered a premium compact and was substantially restyled apart from the Cavalier where the Lynx was just an Escort for L-M dealers to sell. In the '80s, the Cougar was Mercury's best effort to differentiate themselves from the Ford mothership and did that job reasonably well.

Buick's higher end models in the 1980s were competing with Lincoln. Riviera v. Mark series. Electra/Park Ave v. Continental/Town Car. Even the Toronado and Ninety-Eight models played in Lincoln's sandbox a bit. As time wore on, the distance between Buick and Mercury only increased.

surreal1272 · June 15, 2015

The thing is that Wings U are wanting Lincoln to be something it is not.. to compete where it doesn't. U wish Lincoln to be seen as an alternative to the #1 Luxury brand, currently Benz, when it is not. It would be like me trying to compare a Cadillac with a Rolls. Once upon a time, but not in my life-time or yours. Buick on the other hand can be called Premium with no red-flags being raised. It is a premium brand.. as is Lincoln. Lincoln, nor Buick have't have the cachet, the platforms, or even the wherewithal to be mentioned in the same sentence as Benz, BMW, Audi, or even its origins sister, Cadillac. Lexus.. because of the LS, GS, and LX have a real claim to being luxury.. Cadillac is aspiring to be what it once was WITH actual cars that fit the bill. Are luxury buyers jumping ship from the Germans to experience it in droves.. not yet. Much of this is Cadillac's own damn fault.. and has nothing to do with the cars it HAS, but the cars it DOESN'T.

BUICK.. and Lincoln are EXACTLY the same business model. In fact,. if GM and Ford were to ever merge... it would be these two names that would have to be decided upon which to keep.. not Cadillac.

Lincoln's damage currently is much worse than that which was Cadillac's back in 2002. Facts:

In 2002 when the CTS debuted:

1) Cadillac was looked upon as a "older, snooty, people brand" but not damaged. The issue was that Benz, Caddy's truest competitor at the time (Not BMW) was moving towards the BMW model with SPORT/LUX while Cadillac was still pushing Luxo-Floaty rides like the Deville.

2) Cadillac,ironically, followed the Lincoln idea in '98 with the Escalade intro instantly bringing youth into the brand..

3) The CTS was so polarizing as a Cadillac that it instantly peaked interest from people who would otherwise pass it by.

4) The Intro of the XLR, SRX, and new STS was icing on the cake. The fact that none of those vehicles survived the real change at Cadillac.. 2009's BK, was quite possibly part of the plan.

5) Cadillac actually has had unique attributes that none of the other GM vehicles have had. Sure the Escalade shares with the Tahoe and Yukon.. but it is truly elevated in a way that I have to turn my head away when an Escalade pulls side by side.. especially a Platinum. Engine.. AWD.. Looks.. Interior.. Suspension... brand Cachet... It also shared with Saab... the BLS/9-3 and the SRX/9-4.. but neither ever made it here to it's main market.

On to Buick...

Buick was EXACTLY where Lincoln is... in 2007 when the Enclave appeared... but only in the United States. Buick has the advantage of China.. and interesting enuff Opel (Side Note: Buick is the largest reason why GM does not want to kill Opel). Personally I love the way GM has handled the Buick brand... and its sales in the US are seriously coming up in a way that I'm betting many pre-BK execs did not expect. I mean there was debate on whether it.. or Pontiac should have survived. Of course Lincoln does not have Buick's clout in China.. it does not have Opel (Europe)... it only has the United States of which last year it didn't even brake 95K sales. Buick on the other hand sold 228K in the US.. and 1.1 Million abroad, mostly in China last year. IN FACT... Buick is inadvertently keeping Opel alive thru out this shared.. by Ford, GM(Opel), and Fiat Euro issue. Buick... with VERANO.. ENCORE.. REGAL (yup Regal) LaCrosse.. and Enclave are killing... My only issue really stems from why isn't Buick pushing the full line-up on Opel.. and vice versa. Who wouldn't love to see an Astra OPC here in the U.S.?

Observations from the last NYIAS revealed a weird dynamic in the Big Apple.. GM somehow had made Buicks as buzz worthy as Lexus.. Point of fact. . there were actually more people sitting in Buick's Encore.. Regal, LaX, Enclave, and Verano than their closest counterparts at Lexus. The Enclave was a curious thing.. as I heard several people commenting on its size.. and essentially how it had a more luxo interior than the RX, but with more space.

The HARD PART

This is not a congratulatory to Cadillac, Buick, or GM. They still have a lot of work to do. BUt it is a reality check to Lincoln and Ford...

I kno it is very hard to have a legitimate discussion with some of U in the thread because many impose such an asinine look on everything said about Ford that it moots the original objective of me, the OP.

That being said.. I am not trying to offend or belittle Lincoln. Point of fact I am offering a way in which it could survive the market turbulence it is experiencing by, ironically because of your statement, "NOT offer(ing) products that start at $23,080." Quite frankly they should!!! Having their entry level starting above Cadillac's.. BMW's... and even Benzes'... is UNBELIEVABLE. I was discussing it with a friend the other day.. and quite frankly that brand strategy automatically limits their sales to that 6K-7K monthly they are at now. SOme tout it like some sort of pride.. that because Ford believes that Lincoln is a $37K-$70K commander... the actual buyer does too. It does not.. and YES.. sales speak volumes to that. This is the one segment where sales are completely relevant to the desirability of the vehicle. Only in the super-Luxo status of limited Bentley, Rolls, and Porsche non-Sports cars can limited sales be immune. A Full-Line Luxo builder??? Sales are an indicator of desirability. Right now.. in the U.S. at least.. BMW, Benz, and Lexus are supreme in that regard.. but Cadillac.. finally with proper product is coming on strong. They need marketing. They need MORE of that product. Cadillac and Lincoln currently have the EXACT same amount of names... yet Cadillac at a higher ATP is selling almost 10K more per month.. with that so-called "handicap" Buick selling 15K as well. GM was smart as hell with this strategy.. because if gets to service customers who want luxo.. but at a slightly lessor price. Despite the Verano starting at $23K.. it is ATPing at closer to $30K In a tiered strategy the Buick brand should STOP.. where Caddy begins. Profits soar. Hence the reason why VW wanted Porsche despite Audi...

Cadillac is now able to offer a $100K Omega.. or $200K Cien... This is the flaw of Lexus. They are a tweener trying to sell the consumer on a $100K LS460h and a $400K LF-A on the same showroom floor as an ES350.. that has the same engine.. EXACTLY The same engine as the Camry. No options.. just that. Yes an ATS has the 2.5L from the Malibu in it.. but it is an OPTIONAL engine. The ES has no options. Not to mention the ATS and Malibu/Regal have virtually nothing else in common. Same can't be said for the Camry/ES.. nor the Fusion/MKZ

You know what? I was going to say something to that extent. He makes a point but when you break it down, it all falls apart. Comparing today's Buick with yesterdays Mercury to try to make Ford equal to Buick, illustrates Ford problem. They tried to make Ford like Mercury, and Lincoln then and are trying to be Ford be like Lincoln now with their Platinum and titanium trims. Lincoln and Buick compete with each other more so that Lincoln and Cadillac. Given that, Ford is stepping on their own toes when they offer "Platinum" models that mirror most features of their supposed premium brand in Lincoln. Even after all that, he still hasn't shown how Ford's upper lines match, much less exceed, Buick's offerings. Has nothing to do with what is SUPPOSEDLY known industry wide. The only thing that seems to be known in the industry is that Ford still has a massive product overlap problem. Maybe that will change with the re-branding of Lincoln to a higher level offering but I've been hearing that for almost two decades now so I'll believe it when I see it.

Cmicasa the Great · June 15, 2015

I'll say this.. the new Lacrosse will solidify Buick's claim to Premium, and if the Park Ave (Avenir) does show up.. then it is an absolutely done deal. All existing Buicks will be new and upgraded by '17/ New LaX, Verano, Enclave, Regal, Envision, and Encore (Updated) will be on the road.. with a surprise or two. Unless Lincoln comes with something more than the "Continental..." the debate will be pointless, as Buick will do the talking for me.

Drew Dowdell · June 15, 2015

The Platinum and Titanium edition Fords are just what Mercury should have been if you also included a grille swap. The problem for Mercury was that it wasn't even that. You could get the same exact car with a different grille at both the Ford dealer and L-M dealer. The last gasp for Mercury was the special edition Milan with special leather stitching.

I liked the Mercuries.... I thought they were more handsome than their Ford counterparts... but premium vehicles they were not (over their Ford counterparts).

I'll say this.. the new Lacrosse will solidify Buick's claim to Premium, and if the Park Ave (Avenir) does show up.. then it is an absolutely done deal. All existing Buicks will be new and upgraded by '17/ New LaX, Verano, Enclave, Regal, Envision, and Encore (Updated) will be on the road.. with a surprise or two. Unless Lincoln comes with something more than the "Continental..." the debate will be pointless, as Buick will do the talking for me.

Even on the rental lot, I'll pick a Lacrosse every day over either the MKS or MKZ.

Cmicasa the Great · June 15, 2015

The thing is that Wings U are wanting Lincoln to be something it is not.. to compete where it doesn't. U wish Lincoln to be seen as an alternative to the #1 Luxury brand, currently Benz, when it is not. It would be like me trying to compare a Cadillac with a Rolls. Once upon a time, but not in my life-time or yours. Buick on the other hand can be called Premium with no red-flags being raised. It is a premium brand.. as is Lincoln. Lincoln, nor Buick have't have the cachet, the platforms, or even the wherewithal to be mentioned in the same sentence as Benz, BMW, Audi, or even its origins sister, Cadillac. Lexus.. because of the LS, GS, and LX have a real claim to being luxury.. Cadillac is aspiring to be what it once was WITH actual cars that fit the bill. Are luxury buyers jumping ship from the Germans to experience it in droves.. not yet. Much of this is Cadillac's own damn fault.. and has nothing to do with the cars it HAS, but the cars it DOESN'T.

BUICK.. and Lincoln are EXACTLY the same business model. In fact,. if GM and Ford were to ever merge... it would be these two names that would have to be decided upon which to keep.. not Cadillac.

Lincoln's damage currently is much worse than that which was Cadillac's back in 2002. Facts:

In 2002 when the CTS debuted:

1) Cadillac was looked upon as a "older, snooty, people brand" but not damaged. The issue was that Benz, Caddy's truest competitor at the time (Not BMW) was moving towards the BMW model with SPORT/LUX while Cadillac was still pushing Luxo-Floaty rides like the Deville.

2) Cadillac,ironically, followed the Lincoln idea in '98 with the Escalade intro instantly bringing youth into the brand..

3) The CTS was so polarizing as a Cadillac that it instantly peaked interest from people who would otherwise pass it by.

4) The Intro of the XLR, SRX, and new STS was icing on the cake. The fact that none of those vehicles survived the real change at Cadillac.. 2009's BK, was quite possibly part of the plan.

5) Cadillac actually has had unique attributes that none of the other GM vehicles have had. Sure the Escalade shares with the Tahoe and Yukon.. but it is truly elevated in a way that I have to turn my head away when an Escalade pulls side by side.. especially a Platinum. Engine.. AWD.. Looks.. Interior.. Suspension... brand Cachet... It also shared with Saab... the BLS/9-3 and the SRX/9-4.. but neither ever made it here to it's main market.

On to Buick...

Buick was EXACTLY where Lincoln is... in 2007 when the Enclave appeared... but only in the United States. Buick has the advantage of China.. and interesting enuff Opel (Side Note: Buick is the largest reason why GM does not want to kill Opel). Personally I love the way GM has handled the Buick brand... and its sales in the US are seriously coming up in a way that I'm betting many pre-BK execs did not expect. I mean there was debate on whether it.. or Pontiac should have survived. Of course Lincoln does not have Buick's clout in China.. it does not have Opel (Europe)... it only has the United States of which last year it didn't even brake 95K sales. Buick on the other hand sold 228K in the US.. and 1.1 Million abroad, mostly in China last year. IN FACT... Buick is inadvertently keeping Opel alive thru out this shared.. by Ford, GM(Opel), and Fiat Euro issue. Buick... with VERANO.. ENCORE.. REGAL (yup Regal) LaCrosse.. and Enclave are killing... My only issue really stems from why isn't Buick pushing the full line-up on Opel.. and vice versa. Who wouldn't love to see an Astra OPC here in the U.S.?

Observations from the last NYIAS revealed a weird dynamic in the Big Apple.. GM somehow had made Buicks as buzz worthy as Lexus.. Point of fact. . there were actually more people sitting in Buick's Encore.. Regal, LaX, Enclave, and Verano than their closest counterparts at Lexus. The Enclave was a curious thing.. as I heard several people commenting on its size.. and essentially how it had a more luxo interior than the RX, but with more space.

The HARD PART

This is not a congratulatory to Cadillac, Buick, or GM. They still have a lot of work to do. BUt it is a reality check to Lincoln and Ford...

I kno it is very hard to have a legitimate discussion with some of U in the thread because many impose such an asinine look on everything said about Ford that it moots the original objective of me, the OP.

That being said.. I am not trying to offend or belittle Lincoln. Point of fact I am offering a way in which it could survive the market turbulence it is experiencing by, ironically because of your statement, "NOT offer(ing) products that start at $23,080." Quite frankly they should!!! Having their entry level starting above Cadillac's.. BMW's... and even Benzes'... is UNBELIEVABLE. I was discussing it with a friend the other day.. and quite frankly that brand strategy automatically limits their sales to that 6K-7K monthly they are at now. SOme tout it like some sort of pride.. that because Ford believes that Lincoln is a $37K-$70K commander... the actual buyer does too. It does not.. and YES.. sales speak volumes to that. This is the one segment where sales are completely relevant to the desirability of the vehicle. Only in the super-Luxo status of limited Bentley, Rolls, and Porsche non-Sports cars can limited sales be immune. A Full-Line Luxo builder??? Sales are an indicator of desirability. Right now.. in the U.S. at least.. BMW, Benz, and Lexus are supreme in that regard.. but Cadillac.. finally with proper product is coming on strong. They need marketing. They need MORE of that product. Cadillac and Lincoln currently have the EXACT same amount of names... yet Cadillac at a higher ATP is selling almost 10K more per month.. with that so-called "handicap" Buick selling 15K as well. GM was smart as hell with this strategy.. because if gets to service customers who want luxo.. but at a slightly lessor price. Despite the Verano starting at $23K.. it is ATPing at closer to $30K In a tiered strategy the Buick brand should STOP.. where Caddy begins. Profits soar. Hence the reason why VW wanted Porsche despite Audi...

Cadillac is now able to offer a $100K Omega.. or $200K Cien... This is the flaw of Lexus. They are a tweener trying to sell the consumer on a $100K LS460h and a $400K LF-A on the same showroom floor as an ES350.. that has the same engine.. EXACTLY The same engine as the Camry. No options.. just that. Yes an ATS has the 2.5L from the Malibu in it.. but it is an OPTIONAL engine. The ES has no options. Not to mention the ATS and Malibu/Regal have virtually nothing else in common. Same can't be said for the Camry/ES.. nor the Fusion/MKZ

You know what? I was going to say something to that extent. He makes a point but when you break it down, it all falls apart. Comparing today's Buick with yesterdays Mercury to try to make Ford equal to Buick, illustrates Ford problem. They tried to make Ford like Mercury, and Lincoln then and are trying to be Ford be like Lincoln now with their Platinum and titanium trims. Lincoln and Buick compete with each other more so that Lincoln and Cadillac. Given that, Ford is stepping on their own toes when they offer "Platinum" models that mirror most features of their supposed premium brand in Lincoln. Even after all that, he still hasn't shown how Ford's upper lines match, much less exceed, Buick's offerings. Has nothing to do with what is SUPPOSEDLY known industry wide. The only thing that seems to be known in the industry is that Ford still has a massive product overlap problem. Maybe that will change with the re-branding of Lincoln to a higher level offering but I've been hearing that for almost two decades now so I'll believe it when I see it.

This.. The business model is the same Buick is essentially Chevy the way GMC is Chevy. They have very little to do with Cadillac as a donor except the Escalade to GMC (Yukon Denali) and the XTS to Buick (Lacrosse)

Lincoln is Ford. The lost of PAG.. solidified the ambiguity. Lexus at least has offering that share little. Audi the same. Within a corporation where the mother-ship (Toyota brand, VW Brand, GM Brand (Lets face it.. GM=Chevy) is dominant there are always gonna be donor cars from the mainstream brand... something BMW and Benz probably wish they had. Ford doesn't have the same ability as GM, Toyota, or VW because it can't hide the donor cars within the unique ones. Had they kept at least Jag/LR, they could

smk4565 · June 15, 2015

Ford competes with Chevy, Toyota, Kia, Honda.

Casa makes a good point in that Buick and Lincoln have the same business model. Both take the Chevy/Ford and build a mechanical twin with different bodies and interior trim. Lincoln does it to a slightly higher price point though, so the Lincoln brand is a notch above Buick in my mind. The Regal is $28k, the MKZ is $35k. The Lacrosse is $31k, the MKS is $38k. The Regal is a slow seller now, if it costs MKZ money it would have zero sales. If the Lacrosse had a base of $38k like an MKS or ES350, bye bye 50% of the sales.

As he also mentioned about Lincoln finding a proper spot in the market, they might as well do a Lincoln Focus for $28k as an entry level car. Lincoln to be viable really needs to be a small car at $28k, a mid-sizer at $34k, and a full size around $44k. Then 3 crossovers, MKC, MKC are in place, I'd price them at $32k and $38K then do a $48k crossover Navigator off Explorer, dump the body on frame big truck. Lincoln has to be a brand for people that want something nicer than average but don't care about 0-60 performance, Nurburgring handling, 400 hp engines, etc.

Cmicasa the Great · June 15, 2015

Ford competes with Chevy, Toyota, Kia, Honda.

Casa makes a good point in that Buick and Lincoln have the same business model. Both take the Chevy/Ford and build a mechanical twin with different bodies and interior trim. Lincoln does it to a slightly higher price point though, so the Lincoln brand is a notch above Buick in my mind. The Regal is $28k, the MKZ is $35k. The Lacrosse is $31k, the MKS is $38k. The Regal is a slow seller now, if it costs MKZ money it would have zero sales. If the Lacrosse had a base of $38k like an MKS or ES350, bye bye 50% of the sales.

Your commentary doesn't include the reason for the Regal and Lacrosse starting lower.. due to more trims and engines. It is there where part of their success story lay because of them being able to legitimately and unapologetically share engines with the Chevy brand. Lincoln needs to do this to increase their sales. I will add that Lincoln doesn't currently have China to increase its viability to the mother-ship the way Buick has with its. Buick outsells FORD. not just Lincoln.. all of Ford as of 2014 by over 200K units

smk4565 · June 15, 2015

I don't think Lincoln selling the MKZ at $27k with a 180 hp 4-cylinder is the way to maintain any type of luxury or premium brand status. Lincoln has some engine options too, the MKZ has the 2.0T, hybrid and V6, so 3 choices are there. Buick needs lower trims I'd guess because that is where the bulk of their sales are. Probably a lot of older buyers that don't want technology or engine power, but want a Buick, and a 200 hp Lacrosse with leather and power locks/windows/seats is all they need because that is what their LeSabre had.

Buick commands about a $4-5k price premium over the Chevy counterpart, the Lincolns are about $10k over the Ford. Same basic principal for both brands, Buick just goes one step above Chevy while Lincoln goes 2 above Ford.

Edited June 15, 2015 by smk4565

Drew Dowdell · June 15, 2015

I don't think Lincoln selling the MKZ at $27k with a 180 hp 4-cylinder is the way to maintain any type of luxury or premium brand status. Lincoln has some engine options too, the MKZ has the 2.0T, hybrid and V6, so 3 choices are there. Buick needs lower trims I'd guess because that is where the bulk of their sales are. Probably a lot of older buyers that don't want technology or engine power, but want a Buick, and a 200 hp Lacrosse with leather and power locks/windows/seats is all they need because that is what their LeSabre had.

Buick commands about a $4-5k price premium over the Chevy counterpart, the Lincolns are about $10k over the Ford. Same basic principal for both brands, Buick just goes one step above Chevy while Lincoln goes 2 above Ford.

From my friend the Buick dealer, the configurations that do best are the "medium" ones. Base models with cloth seats and few options are hard to move. High end ones with expensive tech are hard to move. The easiest sellers are typically anything with leather and 2 or more of the three options: NAV, Sunroof, AWD, Heated Seats.

smk4565 · June 15, 2015

I don't think Lincoln selling the MKZ at $27k with a 180 hp 4-cylinder is the way to maintain any type of luxury or premium brand status. Lincoln has some engine options too, the MKZ has the 2.0T, hybrid and V6, so 3 choices are there. Buick needs lower trims I'd guess because that is where the bulk of their sales are. Probably a lot of older buyers that don't want technology or engine power, but want a Buick, and a 200 hp Lacrosse with leather and power locks/windows/seats is all they need because that is what their LeSabre had.

Buick commands about a $4-5k price premium over the Chevy counterpart, the Lincolns are about $10k over the Ford. Same basic principal for both brands, Buick just goes one step above Chevy while Lincoln goes 2 above Ford.

From my friend the Buick dealer, the configurations that do best are the "medium" ones. Base models with cloth seats and few options are hard to move. High end ones with expensive tech are hard to move. The easiest sellers are typically anything with leather and 2 or more of the three options: NAV, Sunroof, AWD, Heated Seats.

So why not make all that stuff standard. Base a Verano at $26k, Regal at $30k, LaCrosse at $35k. Basically about where the Chevy counter part ends on price. They must need those base models for some reason, unless the base models are all rental cars.

Drew Dowdell · June 15, 2015

I don't think Lincoln selling the MKZ at $27k with a 180 hp 4-cylinder is the way to maintain any type of luxury or premium brand status. Lincoln has some engine options too, the MKZ has the 2.0T, hybrid and V6, so 3 choices are there. Buick needs lower trims I'd guess because that is where the bulk of their sales are. Probably a lot of older buyers that don't want technology or engine power, but want a Buick, and a 200 hp Lacrosse with leather and power locks/windows/seats is all they need because that is what their LeSabre had.

Buick commands about a $4-5k price premium over the Chevy counterpart, the Lincolns are about $10k over the Ford. Same basic principal for both brands, Buick just goes one step above Chevy while Lincoln goes 2 above Ford.

From my friend the Buick dealer, the configurations that do best are the "medium" ones. Base models with cloth seats and few options are hard to move. High end ones with expensive tech are hard to move. The easiest sellers are typically anything with leather and 2 or more of the three options: NAV, Sunroof, AWD, Heated Seats.

So why not make all that stuff standard. Base a Verano at $26k, Regal at $30k, LaCrosse at $35k. Basically about where the Chevy counter part ends on price. They must need those base models for some reason, unless the base models are all rental cars.

Unless I missed my Offer letter from Buick making me the product planner, I don't have that sort of pull.

Joking aside, I do agree that some of the base models need to go. I think the 2.4 LaCrosse needs to go in favor of the 2.0T. Cloth Encores and Veranos could probably stick around, but Lacrosse, Regal, and Enclave should be standard leather.

smk4565 · June 15, 2015

Keeping those base cloth trim, 2.4 liter engines etc is like old GM. When you could get a Buick or Pontiac for the same price as a Chevy pretty much. The Buick base model should basically be like the Chevy LTZ, then Buick can still offer a trim above that to set themselves apart.

hyperv6 · June 15, 2015

Well product planners try to optimize for every sale and while it makes money it hurts image. It make one ponder if they stopped offering the low end stuff if the image would pick up and they would sell more mid level and higher stuff.

Lets face it some base models just damage the look of a model with smaller tires cheap wheel covers and the cheap interior.

I was always of the persuasions make the lower car look better even if it cost more and I would fell much better about the entire model

But as Drew pointed out the middle is the sweet spot as any parking lot will confirm this. The GS Regal is a sweet car but the normal Regal Turbo is the one you see most. The base you see at the airport or a Disney parking lot.

hyperv6 · June 15, 2015

Anyone take note how VW is now breaking down their company to 4 holding companies?

Part of this is to make it easier to manage and to make change come faster. It also will help in tough times to protect some divisions from others. This will be a smart move as long as they still communicate and continue to work with each other. If they start to compete with in it could create another GM like failure.

Cory Wolfe · June 16, 2015

The thing is that Wings U are wanting Lincoln to be something it is not.. to compete where it doesn't. U wish Lincoln to be seen as an alternative to the #1 Luxury brand, currently Benz, when it is not. It would be like me trying to compare a Cadillac with a Rolls. Once upon a time, but not in my life-time or yours. Buick on the other hand can be called Premium with no red-flags being raised. It is a premium brand.. as is Lincoln. Lincoln, nor Buick have't have the cachet, the platforms, or even the wherewithal to be mentioned in the same sentence as Benz, BMW, Audi, or even its origins sister, Cadillac. Lexus.. because of the LS, GS, and LX have a real claim to being luxury.. Cadillac is aspiring to be what it once was WITH actual cars that fit the bill. Are luxury buyers jumping ship from the Germans to experience it in droves.. not yet. Much of this is Cadillac's own damn fault.. and has nothing to do with the cars it HAS, but the cars it DOESN'T.

BUICK.. and Lincoln are EXACTLY the same business model. In fact,. if GM and Ford were to ever merge... it would be these two names that would have to be decided upon which to keep.. not Cadillac.

Lincoln's damage currently is much worse than that which was Cadillac's back in 2002. Facts:

In 2002 when the CTS debuted:

1) Cadillac was looked upon as a "older, snooty, people brand" but not damaged. The issue was that Benz, Caddy's truest competitor at the time (Not BMW) was moving towards the BMW model with SPORT/LUX while Cadillac was still pushing Luxo-Floaty rides like the Deville.

2) Cadillac,ironically, followed the Lincoln idea in '98 with the Escalade intro instantly bringing youth into the brand..

3) The CTS was so polarizing as a Cadillac that it instantly peaked interest from people who would otherwise pass it by.

4) The Intro of the XLR, SRX, and new STS was icing on the cake. The fact that none of those vehicles survived the real change at Cadillac.. 2009's BK, was quite possibly part of the plan.

5) Cadillac actually has had unique attributes that none of the other GM vehicles have had. Sure the Escalade shares with the Tahoe and Yukon.. but it is truly elevated in a way that I have to turn my head away when an Escalade pulls side by side.. especially a Platinum. Engine.. AWD.. Looks.. Interior.. Suspension... brand Cachet... It also shared with Saab... the BLS/9-3 and the SRX/9-4.. but neither ever made it here to it's main market.

On to Buick...

Buick was EXACTLY where Lincoln is... in 2007 when the Enclave appeared... but only in the United States. Buick has the advantage of China.. and interesting enuff Opel (Side Note: Buick is the largest reason why GM does not want to kill Opel). Personally I love the way GM has handled the Buick brand... and its sales in the US are seriously coming up in a way that I'm betting many pre-BK execs did not expect. I mean there was debate on whether it.. or Pontiac should have survived. Of course Lincoln does not have Buick's clout in China.. it does not have Opel (Europe)... it only has the United States of which last year it didn't even brake 95K sales. Buick on the other hand sold 228K in the US.. and 1.1 Million abroad, mostly in China last year. IN FACT... Buick is inadvertently keeping Opel alive thru out this shared.. by Ford, GM(Opel), and Fiat Euro issue. Buick... with VERANO.. ENCORE.. REGAL (yup Regal) LaCrosse.. and Enclave are killing... My only issue really stems from why isn't Buick pushing the full line-up on Opel.. and vice versa. Who wouldn't love to see an Astra OPC here in the U.S.?

Observations from the last NYIAS revealed a weird dynamic in the Big Apple.. GM somehow had made Buicks as buzz worthy as Lexus.. Point of fact. . there were actually more people sitting in Buick's Encore.. Regal, LaX, Enclave, and Verano than their closest counterparts at Lexus. The Enclave was a curious thing.. as I heard several people commenting on its size.. and essentially how it had a more luxo interior than the RX, but with more space.

The HARD PART

This is not a congratulatory to Cadillac, Buick, or GM. They still have a lot of work to do. BUt it is a reality check to Lincoln and Ford...

I kno it is very hard to have a legitimate discussion with some of U in the thread because many impose such an asinine look on everything said about Ford that it moots the original objective of me, the OP.

That being said.. I am not trying to offend or belittle Lincoln. Point of fact I am offering a way in which it could survive the market turbulence it is experiencing by, ironically because of your statement, "NOT offer(ing) products that start at $23,080." Quite frankly they should!!! Having their entry level starting above Cadillac's.. BMW's... and even Benzes'... is UNBELIEVABLE. I was discussing it with a friend the other day.. and quite frankly that brand strategy automatically limits their sales to that 6K-7K monthly they are at now. SOme tout it like some sort of pride.. that because Ford believes that Lincoln is a $37K-$70K commander... the actual buyer does too. It does not.. and YES.. sales speak volumes to that. This is the one segment where sales are completely relevant to the desirability of the vehicle. Only in the super-Luxo status of limited Bentley, Rolls, and Porsche non-Sports cars can limited sales be immune. A Full-Line Luxo builder??? Sales are an indicator of desirability. Right now.. in the U.S. at least.. BMW, Benz, and Lexus are supreme in that regard.. but Cadillac.. finally with proper product is coming on strong. They need marketing. They need MORE of that product. Cadillac and Lincoln currently have the EXACT same amount of names... yet Cadillac at a higher ATP is selling almost 10K more per month.. with that so-called "handicap" Buick selling 15K as well. GM was smart as hell with this strategy.. because if gets to service customers who want luxo.. but at a slightly lessor price. Despite the Verano starting at $23K.. it is ATPing at closer to $30K In a tiered strategy the Buick brand should STOP.. where Caddy begins. Profits soar. Hence the reason why VW wanted Porsche despite Audi...

I don't often say this, but there are a lot of good points above.

cp-the-nerd · June 16, 2015

Keeping those base cloth trim, 2.4 liter engines etc is like old GM. When you could get a Buick or Pontiac for the same price as a Chevy pretty much. The Buick base model should basically be like the Chevy LTZ, then Buick can still offer a trim above that to set themselves apart.

Buicks pretty much are equivalent to Chevy LTZ models. Only the Verano and Encore offer cloth at all, and the Verano starts at $21k, not $26k. They're surprisingly nice leatherette-lined seats with cloth inserts that are nicer fabric than Chevy gets. Keep in mind, the Verano's prime competition was the Acura ILX, which fell hilariously short until Honda performed an extensive refresh this past year and a new Verano is right around the corner.

The Regal has standard leather and buyer's choice of the mild hybrid or 2.0T. The Lacrosse makes due with the mild hybrid or LFX V6. I actually like the idea that old people can buy a sub-200 horsepower version for efficiency. The eAssist system might be outdated, but how relevant is it to compare models this long in the tooth to brand new competition? Of course they seem mediocre now. A new Lacrosse has already been spotted in camo.

smk4565 · June 16, 2015

An Impala 2LT is $31k, a base Lacrosse is also $31k. An Impala LTZ is $35k. The Regal starts at $27k while a Malibu LTZ is $29k, and a Malibu 2LT is $28k. Traverse 2LT is $37k, a Traverse LTZ is $42k. The Enclave bases at $39k. Right now the base Buicks are priced more like Chevrolet LT trim, rather than the LTZ trim.

daves87rs · June 16, 2015

You know what's killing me here? 7 pages of brands this/brands that, yet I fail to see how they can fix CTS issue in general.

There is a reason why the car is not selling....and I'll start with two:

1- Is it still here? (what advertising?)

2- ATS. Kinda makes the CTS pointless. BMW is a company, not a division like Caddy. You do not need to compete with them on every level. You move the product that sells......

I get it...I like the CTS-but I fail to see the point in it at the moment.....and guessing by the sales, I am not the only one........

cp-the-nerd · June 16, 2015

I'm pretty sure that $27k Regal base price is a mistake at the Buick site. In the build feature it starts at $29,900 before destination, which is between the 1LTZ and 2LTZ trims on the Malibu, which makes sense because it has the 2.0T and a leather interior nicer than the Chevy counterpart.

The Lacrosse is positioned oddly because it's technically a roomy midsize car with a much smaller trunk than the Impala, but it's moved upmarket significantly since it released. There used to be an un-assisted 2.4L base engine with full cloth seats and WHEEL COVERS. I think the price started at $27k. I expect the next Lacrosse to start around $35k and take another step up in luxury status.

cp-the-nerd · June 16, 2015

You know what's killing me here? 7 pages of brands this/brands that, yet I fail to see how they can fix CTS issue in general.

There is a reason why the car is not selling....and I'll start with two:

1- Is it still here? (what advertising?)

2- ATS. Kinda makes the CTS pointless. BMW is a company, not a division like Caddy. You do not need to compete with them on every level. You move the product that sells......

I get it...I like the CTS-but I fail to see the point in it at the moment.....and guessing by the sales, I am not the only one........

Uhhh what..? The ATS is a compact, the CTS is midsize. Those are extremely common luxury car tiers:

Audi A4 and A6

Lexus IS and GS

MB C-class and E-class

Acura ILX and TLX

All Cadillac has to do is continue building its reputation, and yes advertising is an important part of that.

daves87rs · June 16, 2015

You know what's killing me here? 7 pages of brands this/brands that, yet I fail to see how they can fix CTS issue in general.

There is a reason why the car is not selling....and I'll start with two:

1- Is it still here? (what advertising?)

2- ATS. Kinda makes the CTS pointless. BMW is a company, not a division like Caddy. You do not need to compete with them on every level. You move the product that sells......

I get it...I like the CTS-but I fail to see the point in it at the moment.....and guessing by the sales, I am not the only one........

Uhhh what..? The ATS is a compact, the CTS is midsize. Those are extremely common luxury car tiers:

Audi A4 and A6

Lexus IS and GS

MB C-class and E-class

Acura ILX and TLX

All Cadillac has to do is continue building its reputation, and yes advertising is an important part of that.

Fair enough....but-what does it really have going for it, say against the E class or the GS? It does have the looks (really growing on me now), but at least to me does not stand out in any huge way......

hyperv6 · June 16, 2015

Dave it is kind of pointless to say much on the CTS at this point for several reasons.

One the advertising and marketing is being transformed as we speak. They put the spot light on the CT6 in the first installments and right now the ATS V next up will be the CTSV soon that should put a spot light on the entire model line.

Second the is going to be replaced as well as the ATS once the flag ship gets here. This was stated by Cadillac not long ago.

This hopefully will replace the similarities of each model.

Third the real key is as long as they are making money volume is not so much a question. It was made clear that Cadillac was no longer a volume brand and with the increased prices the focus was not on selling more car but more expensive cars to make a profit. We are not provided with these numbers. Note too that a 10% drop in sales in hundreds of cars not thousands.

I really do not think things are in that much peril yet and we just need to let the new team complete their transformation before we can judge where they are at.

As I have pointed out in this segment you do not have to be the volume sales leader to win. It is all about profits. Sell too many cars for the wrong reasons and you can damage your image if your products are in the wrong hands. This is the Rolex segment not the Timex.

June 16, 2015

The thing is that Wings U are wanting Lincoln to be something it is not.. to compete where it doesn't. U wish Lincoln to be seen as an alternative to the #1 Luxury brand, currently Benz, when it is not. It would be like me trying to compare a Cadillac with a Rolls. Once upon a time, but not in my life-time or yours. Buick on the other hand can be called Premium with no red-flags being raised. It is a premium brand.. as is Lincoln. Lincoln, nor Buick have't have the cachet, the platforms, or even the wherewithal to be mentioned in the same sentence as Benz, BMW, Audi, or even its origins sister, Cadillac. Lexus.. because of the LS, GS, and LX have a real claim to being luxury.. Cadillac is aspiring to be what it once was WITH actual cars that fit the bill. Are luxury buyers jumping ship from the Germans to experience it in droves.. not yet. Much of this is Cadillac's own damn fault.. and has nothing to do with the cars it HAS, but the cars it DOESN'T.

BUICK.. and Lincoln are EXACTLY the same business model. In fact,. if GM and Ford were to ever merge... it would be these two names that would have to be decided upon which to keep.. not Cadillac.

Lincoln's damage currently is much worse than that which was Cadillac's back in 2002. Facts:

In 2002 when the CTS debuted:

1) Cadillac was looked upon as a "older, snooty, people brand" but not damaged. The issue was that Benz, Caddy's truest competitor at the time (Not BMW) was moving towards the BMW model with SPORT/LUX while Cadillac was still pushing Luxo-Floaty rides like the Deville.

2) Cadillac,ironically, followed the Lincoln idea in '98 with the Escalade intro instantly bringing youth into the brand..

3) The CTS was so polarizing as a Cadillac that it instantly peaked interest from people who would otherwise pass it by.

4) The Intro of the XLR, SRX, and new STS was icing on the cake. The fact that none of those vehicles survived the real change at Cadillac.. 2009's BK, was quite possibly part of the plan.

5) Cadillac actually has had unique attributes that none of the other GM vehicles have had. Sure the Escalade shares with the Tahoe and Yukon.. but it is truly elevated in a way that I have to turn my head away when an Escalade pulls side by side.. especially a Platinum. Engine.. AWD.. Looks.. Interior.. Suspension... brand Cachet... It also shared with Saab... the BLS/9-3 and the SRX/9-4.. but neither ever made it here to it's main market.

On to Buick...

Buick was EXACTLY where Lincoln is... in 2007 when the Enclave appeared... but only in the United States. Buick has the advantage of China.. and interesting enuff Opel (Side Note: Buick is the largest reason why GM does not want to kill Opel). Personally I love the way GM has handled the Buick brand... and its sales in the US are seriously coming up in a way that I'm betting many pre-BK execs did not expect. I mean there was debate on whether it.. or Pontiac should have survived. Of course Lincoln does not have Buick's clout in China.. it does not have Opel (Europe)... it only has the United States of which last year it didn't even brake 95K sales. Buick on the other hand sold 228K in the US.. and 1.1 Million abroad, mostly in China last year. IN FACT... Buick is inadvertently keeping Opel alive thru out this shared.. by Ford, GM(Opel), and Fiat Euro issue. Buick... with VERANO.. ENCORE.. REGAL (yup Regal) LaCrosse.. and Enclave are killing... My only issue really stems from why isn't Buick pushing the full line-up on Opel.. and vice versa. Who wouldn't love to see an Astra OPC here in the U.S.?

Observations from the last NYIAS revealed a weird dynamic in the Big Apple.. GM somehow had made Buicks as buzz worthy as Lexus.. Point of fact. . there were actually more people sitting in Buick's Encore.. Regal, LaX, Enclave, and Verano than their closest counterparts at Lexus. The Enclave was a curious thing.. as I heard several people commenting on its size.. and essentially how it had a more luxo interior than the RX, but with more space.

The HARD PART

This is not a congratulatory to Cadillac, Buick, or GM. They still have a lot of work to do. BUt it is a reality check to Lincoln and Ford...

I kno it is very hard to have a legitimate discussion with some of U in the thread because many impose such an asinine look on everything said about Ford that it moots the original objective of me, the OP.

That being said.. I am not trying to offend or belittle Lincoln. Point of fact I am offering a way in which it could survive the market turbulence it is experiencing by, ironically because of your statement, "NOT offer(ing) products that start at $23,080." Quite frankly they should!!! Having their entry level starting above Cadillac's.. BMW's... and even Benzes'... is UNBELIEVABLE. I was discussing it with a friend the other day.. and quite frankly that brand strategy automatically limits their sales to that 6K-7K monthly they are at now. SOme tout it like some sort of pride.. that because Ford believes that Lincoln is a $37K-$70K commander... the actual buyer does too. It does not.. and YES.. sales speak volumes to that. This is the one segment where sales are completely relevant to the desirability of the vehicle. Only in the super-Luxo status of limited Bentley, Rolls, and Porsche non-Sports cars can limited sales be immune. A Full-Line Luxo builder??? Sales are an indicator of desirability. Right now.. in the U.S. at least.. BMW, Benz, and Lexus are supreme in that regard.. but Cadillac.. finally with proper product is coming on strong. They need marketing. They need MORE of that product. Cadillac and Lincoln currently have the EXACT same amount of names... yet Cadillac at a higher ATP is selling almost 10K more per month.. with that so-called "handicap" Buick selling 15K as well. GM was smart as hell with this strategy.. because if gets to service customers who want luxo.. but at a slightly lessor price. Despite the Verano starting at $23K.. it is ATPing at closer to $30K In a tiered strategy the Buick brand should STOP.. where Caddy begins. Profits soar. Hence the reason why VW wanted Porsche despite Audi...

Cadillac is now able to offer a $100K Omega.. or $200K Cien... This is the flaw of Lexus. They are a tweener trying to sell the consumer on a $100K LS460h and a $400K LF-A on the same showroom floor as an ES350.. that has the same engine.. EXACTLY The same engine as the Camry. No options.. just that. Yes an ATS has the 2.5L from the Malibu in it.. but it is an OPTIONAL engine. The ES has no options. Not to mention the ATS and Malibu/Regal have virtually nothing else in common. Same can't be said for the Camry/ES.. nor the Fusion/MKZ

I don't know where to go with this casa. You seem to be continuing a lot of previous discussions from other sites I think. All I have said here regarding Lincoln, is repeated what everyone knows, that they are building the brand and that they are moving upscale a bit in coming years, while also straddling higher volume, entry level segments and everything in between. I did not compare them to anyone, other than to state they are hardly in a hard place as some keep repeating, with continued sales gains that can soon be counted in years, not months. Small gains, but nonetheless.

And my other remark, was that Ford's premium trim strategy, which they continue to grow with Platinum spreading across segments, in addition to Vignale in Europe, is to offer choice and compete with lessor luxury brands, like Buick. You can disagree with that, and dissect the strategies 10 ways to Sunday, but customers don't and won't. A $50K sedan or $60K CUV is what they see.

Anyway, back to the topic, Cadillac's struggles.

Edited June 16, 2015 by Wings4Life

hyperv6 · June 16, 2015

As for Buick guys you are comparing two car the Lacrosse and Regal that are two of the oldest models on two of the oldest platform. same with the Enclave too.

I think if you give them time to finish things here you will see a very different Buick emerge.

Note too while the present Buicks are based on similar Chevy Models they are very different in offerings. They give intangible that Chevy does not offer in many areas. Much quieter and better suspension offerings as well as AWD on all models but one.

While Ford tries to sell a Fusion with AWD stickered at nearly $44K with the titanium package Buick offers the GS AWD stickered at $42 and is a better car. Buick is moving to compete with more mid to lower Lexus and Audi models as well as the future lower models of BMW and Benz. Buick and Cadillac are not fully repositioned yet and still have work to do.

That $12 Billion to Cadillac is not only going to move Cadillac up but give Buick to grow.

Lets face it Buick has little room to grow till they get Cadillac right. The ATS price wise is a better deal than a Lacrosse and the XTS is still in the way to a point too. Same for the GS. While a great car for little more you can get a Regal with the same Turbo 4 engine.

If Van Gogh was painting a painting would you judge it till completed? That is where Cadillac and Buick are now they are both in creation of where they are going. Cadillac already said they were not good enough and wanted better and won the support from GM finally. Buick has yet to show the future and we just saw a hint this January with the Avenir. We need to let this plan mature a bit as we have more to come on this to fully judge the whole plan. What we have now is far from complete.

Cmicasa the Great · June 16, 2015

The thing is that Wings U are wanting Lincoln to be something it is not.. to compete where it doesn't. U wish Lincoln to be seen as an alternative to the #1 Luxury brand, currently Benz, when it is not. It would be like me trying to compare a Cadillac with a Rolls. Once upon a time, but not in my life-time or yours. Buick on the other hand can be called Premium with no red-flags being raised. It is a premium brand.. as is Lincoln. Lincoln, nor Buick have't have the cachet, the platforms, or even the wherewithal to be mentioned in the same sentence as Benz, BMW, Audi, or even its origins sister, Cadillac. Lexus.. because of the LS, GS, and LX have a real claim to being luxury.. Cadillac is aspiring to be what it once was WITH actual cars that fit the bill. Are luxury buyers jumping ship from the Germans to experience it in droves.. not yet. Much of this is Cadillac's own damn fault.. and has nothing to do with the cars it HAS, but the cars it DOESN'T.

BUICK.. and Lincoln are EXACTLY the same business model. In fact,. if GM and Ford were to ever merge... it would be these two names that would have to be decided upon which to keep.. not Cadillac.

Lincoln's damage currently is much worse than that which was Cadillac's back in 2002. Facts:

In 2002 when the CTS debuted:

1) Cadillac was looked upon as a "older, snooty, people brand" but not damaged. The issue was that Benz, Caddy's truest competitor at the time (Not BMW) was moving towards the BMW model with SPORT/LUX while Cadillac was still pushing Luxo-Floaty rides like the Deville.

2) Cadillac,ironically, followed the Lincoln idea in '98 with the Escalade intro instantly bringing youth into the brand..

3) The CTS was so polarizing as a Cadillac that it instantly peaked interest from people who would otherwise pass it by.

4) The Intro of the XLR, SRX, and new STS was icing on the cake. The fact that none of those vehicles survived the real change at Cadillac.. 2009's BK, was quite possibly part of the plan.

5) Cadillac actually has had unique attributes that none of the other GM vehicles have had. Sure the Escalade shares with the Tahoe and Yukon.. but it is truly elevated in a way that I have to turn my head away when an Escalade pulls side by side.. especially a Platinum. Engine.. AWD.. Looks.. Interior.. Suspension... brand Cachet... It also shared with Saab... the BLS/9-3 and the SRX/9-4.. but neither ever made it here to it's main market.

On to Buick...

Buick was EXACTLY where Lincoln is... in 2007 when the Enclave appeared... but only in the United States. Buick has the advantage of China.. and interesting enuff Opel (Side Note: Buick is the largest reason why GM does not want to kill Opel). Personally I love the way GM has handled the Buick brand... and its sales in the US are seriously coming up in a way that I'm betting many pre-BK execs did not expect. I mean there was debate on whether it.. or Pontiac should have survived. Of course Lincoln does not have Buick's clout in China.. it does not have Opel (Europe)... it only has the United States of which last year it didn't even brake 95K sales. Buick on the other hand sold 228K in the US.. and 1.1 Million abroad, mostly in China last year. IN FACT... Buick is inadvertently keeping Opel alive thru out this shared.. by Ford, GM(Opel), and Fiat Euro issue. Buick... with VERANO.. ENCORE.. REGAL (yup Regal) LaCrosse.. and Enclave are killing... My only issue really stems from why isn't Buick pushing the full line-up on Opel.. and vice versa. Who wouldn't love to see an Astra OPC here in the U.S.?

Observations from the last NYIAS revealed a weird dynamic in the Big Apple.. GM somehow had made Buicks as buzz worthy as Lexus.. Point of fact. . there were actually more people sitting in Buick's Encore.. Regal, LaX, Enclave, and Verano than their closest counterparts at Lexus. The Enclave was a curious thing.. as I heard several people commenting on its size.. and essentially how it had a more luxo interior than the RX, but with more space.

The HARD PART

This is not a congratulatory to Cadillac, Buick, or GM. They still have a lot of work to do. BUt it is a reality check to Lincoln and Ford...

I kno it is very hard to have a legitimate discussion with some of U in the thread because many impose such an asinine look on everything said about Ford that it moots the original objective of me, the OP.

That being said.. I am not trying to offend or belittle Lincoln. Point of fact I am offering a way in which it could survive the market turbulence it is experiencing by, ironically because of your statement, "NOT offer(ing) products that start at $23,080." Quite frankly they should!!! Having their entry level starting above Cadillac's.. BMW's... and even Benzes'... is UNBELIEVABLE. I was discussing it with a friend the other day.. and quite frankly that brand strategy automatically limits their sales to that 6K-7K monthly they are at now. SOme tout it like some sort of pride.. that because Ford believes that Lincoln is a $37K-$70K commander... the actual buyer does too. It does not.. and YES.. sales speak volumes to that. This is the one segment where sales are completely relevant to the desirability of the vehicle. Only in the super-Luxo status of limited Bentley, Rolls, and Porsche non-Sports cars can limited sales be immune. A Full-Line Luxo builder??? Sales are an indicator of desirability. Right now.. in the U.S. at least.. BMW, Benz, and Lexus are supreme in that regard.. but Cadillac.. finally with proper product is coming on strong. They need marketing. They need MORE of that product. Cadillac and Lincoln currently have the EXACT same amount of names... yet Cadillac at a higher ATP is selling almost 10K more per month.. with that so-called "handicap" Buick selling 15K as well. GM was smart as hell with this strategy.. because if gets to service customers who want luxo.. but at a slightly lessor price. Despite the Verano starting at $23K.. it is ATPing at closer to $30K In a tiered strategy the Buick brand should STOP.. where Caddy begins. Profits soar. Hence the reason why VW wanted Porsche despite Audi...

I don't often say this, but there are a lot of good points above.

Go back and look at a lot more of my stuff since returning.. and U will say it more often than not

Cmicasa the Great · June 16, 2015

Keeping those base cloth trim, 2.4 liter engines etc is like old GM. When you could get a Buick or Pontiac for the same price as a Chevy pretty much. The Buick base model should basically be like the Chevy LTZ, then Buick can still offer a trim above that to set themselves apart.

The Lacrosse was marketed and designed to be an alternative to the Lexus ES350. At the time of its release.. the ES350 featured Cloth seats. It made the move to "Nuluxe" imitation leather for the 2012 model year. Frankly.. I think cloth seats SHOULD be an option in ANY class. I think that limiting choices is not luxury. Yes.. that means that if a person wants.. WANTS cloth seats in their Mercedes S-Class they should be able to order them. Perhaps to keep it premium.. they should all return to having Velour on the menu

Let me tell U.. this $h! was COMFY.. and U never slid down. I once took a girl out in my uncle's 75 Fleetwood... This was in 1988.. and she let me do things to her that a 16 year shouldn't even kno existed all because she sat back there and said "wow.. these seats are so soft..."

Drew Dowdell · June 16, 2015

I too miss the good cloth seats of yore. I wouldn't mind cloth seat options if they were really nice.

Cmicasa the Great · June 16, 2015

You know what's killing me here? 7 pages of brands this/brands that, yet I fail to see how they can fix CTS issue in general.

There is a reason why the car is not selling....and I'll start with two:

1- Is it still here? (what advertising?)

2- ATS. Kinda makes the CTS pointless. BMW is a company, not a division like Caddy. You do not need to compete with them on every level. You move the product that sells......

I get it...I like the CTS-but I fail to see the point in it at the moment.....and guessing by the sales, I am not the only one........

Your points are valid to a point.

1) Absolutely. I am seeing effin Mustang ads every freaking day. Had the same momentum of the ATS ads, in the beginning, kept up, then their sales would be double. Speculation yes... but I saw a great deal of excitement seeing the ATS racing down the mountain side in Italy(?) a few years back.. "Robot Arms" would have been fine had a celebration actually been in order. The CTS, on the other hand started off with one commercial that I remember and haven't seen since... the "Moon Shot."

2) I don't agree with this at all. The ATS is necessary and should be fleshed out. A beautiful car left bland in anything not incorporating full fascia. The LED vertical front lights should be across the board at Cadillac. The ATS should have had a convertible ready for Summer. A Wagon. A Hybrid. It is possibly the most important car at Cadillac in convincing the masses that Cadillac is no longer "snooty and old luxury."

In view of sales the proportion of sales is on point with the CTS tho. Eclass sells almost 45 of what the C-Class does. Same for the two Cadillacs. ATS sales need to go up though, but they could do this by advertising it and offering more desirable options.

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