Cadillac CTS Sales are Down 41% in 2015

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2015/06/chart-day-cadillac-cts-sales-41-2015/

 

In each of the last five months, General Motors has failed to sell more than 1,800 copies of the CTS. Sub-2K CTS sales months are unheard-of. Even in 2012, when CTS volume slid 15%, Cadillac averaged 3,914 CTS sales per month in the United States and never fell below 2,300.

 

"Escalade and SRX sales are masking how bad things really are for Cadillac." Posted on TTAC Facebook page.

 

[Cmicasa the Great]

*edited to remove personal attack, don't do it again* - Mod

 

Can I get a thread on why the Audi A6.. put of the German 3, has only sold 8,978 models this year??? 

 

On a more logical note... The CTS sees a drop in sales from last Gen after a major price hike and a drop of variations. How much of a drop? About 40%. How much of a percentage did the Coupe and VSeries account for? About 40%. Wagon was a bonus. 

 

 

 

nice pic

Edited June 12, 2015 by Drew Dowdell
Removed personal attack

[El Kabong]

No worries Casa... I'll shut down this one REAL good:

In May of 2015, Cadillac's Alpha vehicles (ATS and CTS) sold 4,145 units. Total sales for the year so far are 18,450.

In May of 2015, Lincoln total car sales, split over two different Ford-based platforms, totalled 3,909 units. Total sales for the year so far are 16,021.

Bottom Line: Cadillac's car sales could be better. But at least they're using a bespoke platform that uses some pretty nifty engineering.

Meanwhile, Lincoln is selling worse, while rolling on worse.

I know whose situation I'd rather be in, is what I'm saying :D

Edited June 12, 2015 by El Kabong

[smk4565]

Because GM product planning is poor, and they don't put enough money into Cadillac to develop a coupe and sedan at the same time.  Interestingly enough, C-class sales are up, and they also rose the price, and didn't have a coupe or AMG model to sell over the past year.   Although they have the AMG now and the coupe and convertible are coming soon.

 

The A6, CTS, GS, Q70 also sell poorly because those brands mostly cater to entry lux buyers and they don't have the prestige of BMW or Mercedes.  Those brands also can't get people out of their SUVs into a sports/luxury sedan for some reason. 

Edited June 12, 2015 by smk4565

[El Kabong]

"Because GM product planning is poor, and they don't put enough money into Cadillac to develop a coupe and sedan at the same time..."

Uh... You do realize the ATS comes in coupe and sedan forms... right? And I wouldn't expect a CTS coupe, for the same reason I wouldn't expect an E-Class coupe-nobody would buy it.

GM needs to improve Cadillac sales... but in the meantime they're at least canny enough to be utilizing only one platform to do it with.

Edited June 12, 2015 by El Kabong

[Cmicasa the Great]

No worries Casa... I'll shut down this one REAL good:

In May of 2015, Cadillac's Alpha vehicles (ATS and CTS) sold 4,145 units. Total sales for the year so far are 18,450.

In May of 2015, Lincoln total car sales, split over two different Ford-based platforms, totalled 3,909 units. Total sales for the year so far are 16,021.

Bottom Line: Cadillac's car sales could be better. But at least they're using a bespoke platform that uses some pretty nifty engineering.

Meanwhile, Lincoln is selling worse, while rolling on worse.

I know whose situation I'd rather be in, is what I'm saying :D

 

 

 

He will try and make some excuse about how the lower sales of the MKZ and MKS are actually more relevant to the sales race despite them both being derived from base line Fords and have pretty $h!ty driving dynamics and about as much cachet as a tube of BenGay.

 

 

CTS lost sale because it lost 40% of its line-up from the previous model on top of the $10,000 price hike and a move from being entry level to the mid-size offering at Cadillac selling at the same price as the larger XTS, which is still perceived, because of its larger size and available AWD in the HI-PO model , as a "Flagship at a Mid-Size car price."

 

28,000+ car sales vs Lincoln's MKZ, MKS, and for spit and giggles... the MKC's 25,000+// with the Cadillacs selling at a higher ATP

[Cmicasa the Great]

Because GM product planning is poor, and they don't put enough money into Cadillac to develop a coupe and sedan at the same time.  Interestingly enough, C-class sales are up, and they also rose the price, and didn't have a coupe or AMG model to sell over the past year.   Although they have the AMG now and the coupe and convertible are coming soon.

 

The A6, CTS, GS, Q70 also sell poorly because those brands mostly cater to entry lux buyers and they don't have the prestige of BMW or Mercedes.  Those brands also can't get people out of their SUVs into a sports/luxury sedan for some reason. 

 

 

To the C-Class point.. there are almost 400 pre-2015 C-Classes for sale in the U.S., and last month their were about a 1000 more.. all being sold at nice discounted pricing.

[smk4565]

"Because GM product planning is poor, and they don't put enough money into Cadillac to develop a coupe and sedan at the same time..."

Uh... You do realize the ATS comes in coupe and sedan forms... right? And I wouldn't expect a CTS coupe, for the same reason I wouldn't expect an E-Class coupe-nobody would buy it.

GM needs to improve Cadillac sales... but in the meantime they're at least canny enough to be utilizing only one platform to do it with.

The ATS coupe arrived during the 3rd model year of the sedan, not exactly speedy roll out.  So if the excuse of Cadillac not having any body styles other than sedan for the CTS being the reason for low sales, well that is their own stupidity then.  Make a CTS coupe then, no one is stopping them.

 

There is an E-class coupe, and an E-class convertible and wagon.  M-B is adding C-class and S-class convertibles in 2016, so that all 3 lines have sedan, coupe, convertible.

 

Side note, the MKS is ending production early next year so 2016 is the last model year.  The Continental will essentially take it's place, so Lincoln will still just have 2 sedans.

[El Kabong]

I defer to Casa's sales numbers at this point.

This thread was started to highlight Cadillac's sales woes. A bit of context makes the situation a bit clearer and rather less dire.

In other words: much ado about rather little. Now: onward!

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

Don't hate the messenger.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

This article carries on where the one below started earlier this year,

 

http://www.carscoops.com/2015/02/cadillac-has-hard-time-selling-ats-and.html

 

"Cadillac’s ATS and CTS aren’t too good at convincing people to choose them over German premium sedans. Dealers throughout the United States are offering significant discounts on the two sedans. In some cases, the 2014 Cadillac ATS is offered with up to $12,000 off a sticker price that starts at about $33,215. 

The situation is similar with the 2014 CTS, which is offered with a discount of up to $17,500 from the starting price of $45,345. According to a report from Reuters, dealers have been asking for Cadillac incentives for a long time.

What this says is Cadillac’s strategy to rival BMW and Mercedes-Benz in the luxury sedan market doesn’t appear to be working. Drivers of German luxury sedans aren’t willing to switch to Cadillac."

[Cmicasa the Great]

 

"Because GM product planning is poor, and they don't put enough money into Cadillac to develop a coupe and sedan at the same time..."

Uh... You do realize the ATS comes in coupe and sedan forms... right? And I wouldn't expect a CTS coupe, for the same reason I wouldn't expect an E-Class coupe-nobody would buy it.

GM needs to improve Cadillac sales... but in the meantime they're at least canny enough to be utilizing only one platform to do it with.

The ATS coupe arrived during the 3rd model year of the sedan, not exactly speedy roll out.  So if the excuse of Cadillac not having any body styles other than sedan for the CTS being the reason for low sales, well that is their own stupidity then.  Make a CTS coupe then, no one is stopping them.

 

There is an E-class coupe, and an E-class convertible and wagon.  M-B is adding C-class and S-class convertibles in 2016, so that all 3 lines have sedan, coupe, convertible.

 

 

It is well known that I agree with this sentiment. The thing is that we kno this.. we have the information.. we kno that the competition has extra variants that feed their sales.. we kno it we kno it we kno it... yet.. idiots who like to troll.. well known for trolling and comparing Lincoln numbers to Cadillac in an effort to bolster that $h!ty brand.. keep posting threads like this since 2013

[Cmicasa the Great]

This article carries on where the one below started earlier this year,

 

http://www.carscoops.com/2015/02/cadillac-has-hard-time-selling-ats-and.html

 

"Cadillac’s ATS and CTS aren’t too good at convincing people to choose them over German premium sedans. Dealers throughout the United States are offering significant discounts on the two sedans. In some cases, the 2014 Cadillac ATS is offered with up to $12,000 off a sticker price that starts at about $33,215. 

The situation is similar with the 2014 CTS, which is offered with a discount of up to $17,500 from the starting price of $45,345. According to a report from Reuters, dealers have been asking for Cadillac incentives for a long time.

What this says is Cadillac’s strategy to rival BMW and Mercedes-Benz in the luxury sedan market doesn’t appear to be working. Drivers of German luxury sedans aren’t willing to switch to Cadillac."

 

 

I gotta say that being able to buy a $45K vehicle for $28K is a helluva bargain.. but its the norm within an Industry that U have no knowledge of apparently. This is most likely to U cheering on and believing that a slightly plusher Fusion or Taurus.. is the epitome of the segment.

 

$17,500??? I kno where I could get a $50,000 discount on a 2014 S63AMG 4matic.. that's a fact

[El Kabong]

Don't hate the messenger.

Such drama.

I merely dismiss the message.

[El Kabong]

This article carries on where the one below started earlier this year,

 

http://www.carscoops.com/2015/02/cadillac-has-hard-time-selling-ats-and.html

 

"Cadillac’s ATS and CTS aren’t too good at convincing people to choose them over German premium sedans. Dealers throughout the United States are offering significant discounts on the two sedans. In some cases, the 2014 Cadillac ATS is offered with up to $12,000 off a sticker price that starts at about $33,215. The situation is similar with the 2014 CTS, which is offered with a discount of up to $17,500 from the starting price of $45,345. According to a report from Reuters, dealers have been asking for Cadillac incentives for a long time.What this says is Cadillac’s strategy to rival BMW and Mercedes-Benz in the luxury sedan market doesn’t appear to be working. Drivers of German luxury sedans aren’t willing to switch to Cadillac."

 

 

I gotta say that being able to buy a $45K vehicle for $28K is a helluva bargain.. but its the norm within an Industry that U have no knowledge of apparently. This is most likely to U cheering on and believing that a slightly plusher Fusion or Taurus.. is the epitome of the segment.

 

$17,500??? I kno where I could get a $50,000 discount on a 2014 S63AMG 4matic.. that's a fact

Indeed. And as I alluded to earlier, GM isn't as compelled to give the dealers extra wiggle room on incentives when it's only one basic platform that's underpinning both cars. The reality is that these cars are selling at an acceptable rate versus the German contenders, especially considering that the ATS is a first-generation car in the most competitive sub-segment of the class. Finally, it would appear that GM's long-term strategy with Cadillac in terms of trickle-down tech and engineering is about to pay off in a big way with the new Camaro riding on an Alpha platform.

Bottom Line: this strategy is both why and how Ford is spending five billion (at least) on Lincoln. I would hope that the author of this thread is level-headed about any Lincoln-based threads referencing these facts going forward.

But I really, REALLY doubt it

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

 

This article carries on where the one below started earlier this year,

 

http://www.carscoops.com/2015/02/cadillac-has-hard-time-selling-ats-and.html

 

"Cadillac’s ATS and CTS aren’t too good at convincing people to choose them over German premium sedans. Dealers throughout the United States are offering significant discounts on the two sedans. In some cases, the 2014 Cadillac ATS is offered with up to $12,000 off a sticker price that starts at about $33,215. 

The situation is similar with the 2014 CTS, which is offered with a discount of up to $17,500 from the starting price of $45,345. According to a report from Reuters, dealers have been asking for Cadillac incentives for a long time.

What this says is Cadillac’s strategy to rival BMW and Mercedes-Benz in the luxury sedan market doesn’t appear to be working. Drivers of German luxury sedans aren’t willing to switch to Cadillac."

 

 

I gotta say that being able to buy a $45K vehicle for $28K is a helluva bargain.. but its the norm within an Industry that U have no knowledge of apparently. This is most likely to U cheering on and believing that a slightly plusher Fusion or Taurus.. is the epitome of the segment.

 

$17,500??? I kno where I could get a $50,000 discount on a 2014 S63AMG 4matic.. that's a fact

 

I understand the CTS to be a fine automobile from Cadillac.  Never, ever, have I said it was not, nor have I ever suggested it was less than a Ford equivalent, which does not really exist anyway.  At least not is size and architecture.  And although my Father retired from Cadillac and I was raised a GM kid and have driven in more GM vehicles than I have Ford, I wish GM no ill and cheer for them whenever I can. But….. I must admit taking an ounce of pleasure in providing this information, right smack in the face, of the same few people who trash Lincoln’s ever step, every chance they get, which is legendary.  My point?  One size, shape or approach does not fit all.  GM needs to better understand it’s customer, and adjust it’s whole approach to that demographic.  If that means a bit more conventional and desirable plush-ness in a luxury sedan that also differentiates itself from the world, rather than duplicate it, then so be it.  And since every other luxury automaker seems to have prioritized offering the customer what they want, CUV’s, then Caddy is now behind the 8-ball there.  People want them so bad they are settling for that tired excuse of a small CUV, and GM is happy to keep lowering the price of it through incentives.

 

Come on Caddy, you can do better.

[smk4565]

Cadillac should build a mid-size crossover on Alpha to compete with the X5 and GLE-class.   Something in between where the SRX is now and the Escalade.

 

Cadillac should also make ATS and CTS convertibles.  They are going to make a Camaro convertible, so clearly the platform is capable.  I think convertibles add a bit of cool factor to a brand, it would help Cadillac's image.

[surreal1272]

Cadillac's situation has been explained many times and this is just yet another attempt by an employee of the competition to try and paint them in a negative light. Just picking up where he left off at another forum site.

 

Personally I see nothing wrong with the cars themselves but can someone at Cadillac please get that 1994 instrument cluster out of the ATS. It completely ruins an otherwise great car. 

 

Oh, and I know they did not sell well the last time, but another CTS wagon would be great!

[El Kabong]

Eh-Cadillac's doing well enough with what they have. And they'll be getting more in due time. Their strategy is being copied by Ford, so it can't be ALL bad.

Some folks just need perspective.

[ccap41]

Here we go... Hey Wings since your ole lady won't tug U off I guess U are using this as your hand motivation huh???

 

 

+1

 

I saw the thead title..and who started it.. ugh. He never stops.

[ccap41]

This article carries on where the one below started earlier this year,

 

http://www.carscoops.com/2015/02/cadillac-has-hard-time-selling-ats-and.html

 

"Cadillac’s ATS and CTS aren’t too good at convincing people to choose them over German premium sedans. Dealers throughout the United States are offering significant discounts on the two sedans. In some cases, the 2014 Cadillac ATS is offered with up to $12,000 off a sticker price that starts at about $33,215. 

The situation is similar with the 2014 CTS, which is offered with a discount of up to $17,500 from the starting price of $45,345. According to a report from Reuters, dealers have been asking for Cadillac incentives for a long time.

What this says is Cadillac’s strategy to rival BMW and Mercedes-Benz in the luxury sedan market doesn’t appear to be working. Drivers of German luxury sedans aren’t willing to switch to Cadillac."

There is no doubt in my mind I would have bought an ATS for 22k!  I know a lot of people aren't a huge fan of their styling but I think they are the second best looking in their class to the C Class(I know a lot of people find that boring as well...)

 

Eh-Cadillac's doing well enough with what they have. And they'll be getting more in due time. Their strategy is being copied by Ford, so it can't be ALL bad.

Some folks just need perspective.

What strategy is Ford copying?

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

 

This article carries on where the one below started earlier this year,

 

http://www.carscoops.com/2015/02/cadillac-has-hard-time-selling-ats-and.html

 

"Cadillac’s ATS and CTS aren’t too good at convincing people to choose them over German premium sedans. Dealers throughout the United States are offering significant discounts on the two sedans. In some cases, the 2014 Cadillac ATS is offered with up to $12,000 off a sticker price that starts at about $33,215. 

The situation is similar with the 2014 CTS, which is offered with a discount of up to $17,500 from the starting price of $45,345. According to a report from Reuters, dealers have been asking for Cadillac incentives for a long time.

What this says is Cadillac’s strategy to rival BMW and Mercedes-Benz in the luxury sedan market doesn’t appear to be working. Drivers of German luxury sedans aren’t willing to switch to Cadillac."

There is no doubt in my mind I would have bought an ATS for 22k!  I know a lot of people aren't a huge fan of their styling but I think they are the second best looking in their class to the C Class(I know a lot of people find that boring as well...)

 

Eh-Cadillac's doing well enough with what they have. And they'll be getting more in due time. Their strategy is being copied by Ford, so it can't be ALL bad.

Some folks just need perspective.

What strategy is Ford copying?

 

I too am confused when he says that. On one hand he claims they need to be more like them. Then he says they copy them.

So confused somebody is.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

 

Here we go... Hey Wings since your ole lady won't tug U off I guess U are using this as your hand motivation huh???

 

 

+1

 

I saw the thead title..and who started it.. ugh. He never stops.

 

Really?

How often would you say I am harsh on Cadillac, relative to some who trash Lincoln in every breathe?

[El Kabong]

The strategy being followed is the one where Dearborn is spending large dollars on a bespoke platform for Lincoln, with future trickle-down applications for Ford. I believe it's even RWD-based.

It's one of the the funniest parts of the whole "Cadillac needs to better" schtick. Cadillac has already moved into Phase 2 of this strategy with the Omega platform (Alpha being earmarked for the Camaro and all). Here wings is dissing it even as his employer emulates it.

Sad, really

Edited June 12, 2015 by El Kabong

[cp-the-nerd]

Cadillac is done playing it safe. They're gunning for the Germans and the cars are there, they just need to let the reputation catch up, and for God's sake, they need some GOOD ADVERTISING. They introduced the ATS coupe with a dork walking next to it getting the attention of women. It was so stupid that I felt embarrassed just watching it.

 

The year that the junior Caddy had its best sales, they ran the ATS vs the World campaign. They were great ads and they worked.

 

Hopefully with the improved 2016 powertrains and two V-series models, they can pull their head out of their ass from a marketing standpoint.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

The strategy being followed is the one where Dearborn is spending large dollars on a bespoke platform for Lincoln, with future trickle-down applications for Ford. I believe it's even RWD-based.

It's one of the the funniest parts of the whole "Cadillac needs to better" schtick. Cadillac has already moved into Phase 2 of this strategy with the Omega platform (Alpha being earmarked for the Camaro and all). Here wings is dissing it even as his employer emulates it.

Sad, really

You keep repeating this nonsense as if it’s true.  Lincoln is not creating some one-off ultra-expensive magical platform that will sweep in and save the day for Lincoln.  That does sound like Cadillac’s failed plan, based on sales and the topic of this thread, but it is NOT Lincolns.

No, what Ford is creating via improvements in flexible manufacturing, is a platform that is FLEXIBLE to any direction they want to go in, for both brands, to accommodate FWD or RWD.  At least that is the Rumor and leave it at that.  And that would only be small fraction of the monies allocated for their Phase II development that will propagate over the next 5-6 years. Phase I completed recently with the rollout of the new MKX. 

 

Otherwise, believe WTF you want.

[ccap41]

The strategy being followed is the one where Dearborn is spending large dollars on a bespoke platform for Lincoln, with future trickle-down applications for Ford. I believe it's even RWD-based.

It's one of the the funniest parts of the whole "Cadillac needs to better" schtick. Cadillac has already moved into Phase 2 of this strategy with the Omega platform (Alpha being earmarked for the Camaro and all). Here wings is dissing it even as his employer emulates it.

Sad, really

Are you serious? Every automaker ever does that.  If Ford is copying GM in anything it isn't the "trickle down effect". MB? BMW? Audi? Everybody pushes their high end tech into their top tier products to showcase them. 

 

C'mon 'Bong.. I know you aren't a Ford guy but saying they are copying the "trickle down effect" is ludacris and you know it.

[El Kabong]

The strategy being followed is the one where Dearborn is spending large dollars on a bespoke platform for Lincoln, with future trickle-down applications for Ford. I believe it's even RWD-based.

It's one of the the funniest parts of the whole "Cadillac needs to better" schtick. Cadillac has already moved into Phase 2 of this strategy with the Omega platform (Alpha being earmarked for the Camaro and all). Here wings is dissing it even as his employer emulates it.

Sad, really

You keep repeating this nonsense as if it’s true. Lincoln is not creating some one-off ultra-expensive magical platform that will sweep in and save the day for Lincoln. That does sound like Cadillac’s failed plan, based on sales and the topic of this thread, but it is NOT Lincolns.

No, what Ford is creating via improvements in flexible manufacturing, is a platform that is FLEXIBLE to any direction they want to go in, for both brands, to accommodate FWD or RWD. At least that is the Rumor and leave it at that. And that would only be small fraction of the monies allocated for their Phase II development that will propagate over the next 5-6 years. Phase I completed recently with the rollout of the new MKX.

Otherwise, believe WTF you want.

Let's see if I got this right:

-The platform is not "magical" but will apparently support RWD, AWD, and FWD applications. Uh... Sounds vaguely Gandalf-ish to me

-Ford is NOT emulating Cadillac's supposed "failed strategy" of trickle-down chassis tech, but this platform will support both Lincoln and Ford products. Golly :/

-Ford is NOT emulating Cadillac's supposed strategy, and you know this based on what you then say "at least that is the rumor and leave it at that." Well, THAT has the ring of authority, right there.

-Then, after blowing your whole argument out of the water ALL BY YOURSELF with that "rumor" disclaimer you go on to describe all the (Monopoly?) money Ford is going to spend on PHASE II of the project.

Holy. Freaking. Crap.

You write some incredibly stupid things. But this may well be the capper.

The strategy being followed is the one where Dearborn is spending large dollars on a bespoke platform for Lincoln, with future trickle-down applications for Ford. I believe it's even RWD-based.

It's one of the the funniest parts of the whole "Cadillac needs to better" schtick. Cadillac has already moved into Phase 2 of this strategy with the Omega platform (Alpha being earmarked for the Camaro and all). Here wings is dissing it even as his employer emulates it.

Sad, really

Are you serious? Every automaker ever does that. If Ford is copying GM in anything it isn't the "trickle down effect". MB? BMW? Audi? Everybody pushes their high end tech into their top tier products to showcase them.

C'mon 'Bong.. I know you aren't a Ford guy but saying they are copying the "trickle down effect" is ludacris and you know it.

Ford doesn't do it.

Yet.

And no, it's not ludacris at all. We're about to get a Cadillac-chassis Camaro whose chassis tech would be unthinkable if it hadn't underpinned two Cadillacs first. By the same token, the economics of scale allowed by building large amounts of Camaros helps amortize the cost of an expensive platform, or allows the beancounters to hold the line on Cadillac prices versus sales numbers.

By way of comparison: Cadillac's one platform will underpin three cars, none of which has any real competition in-house. Ford will use three platforms for the same-size or class of vehicles, and two of those platforms will have Ford sedan equivalents.

It ain't rocket surgery.

Edited June 12, 2015 by El Kabong

[Drew Dowdell]

This is a topic worthy of discussion and I was going to bring it up myself as well.  There is no need for personal attacks just because a member who is a fan of another brand brought it up. 

 

Let's move forward keeping this in mind please. 

[ccap41]

 

 

The strategy being followed is the one where Dearborn is spending large dollars on a bespoke platform for Lincoln, with future trickle-down applications for Ford. I believe it's even RWD-based.

It's one of the the funniest parts of the whole "Cadillac needs to better" schtick. Cadillac has already moved into Phase 2 of this strategy with the Omega platform (Alpha being earmarked for the Camaro and all). Here wings is dissing it even as his employer emulates it.

Sad, really

You keep repeating this nonsense as if it’s true.  Lincoln is not creating some one-off ultra-expensive magical platform that will sweep in and save the day for Lincoln.  That does sound like Cadillac’s failed plan, based on sales and the topic of this thread, but it is NOT Lincolns.

No, what Ford is creating via improvements in flexible manufacturing, is a platform that is FLEXIBLE to any direction they want to go in, for both brands, to accommodate FWD or RWD.  At least that is the Rumor and leave it at that.  And that would only be small fraction of the monies allocated for their Phase II development that will propagate over the next 5-6 years. Phase I completed recently with the rollout of the new MKX. 

 

Otherwise, believe WTF you want.

Let's see if I got this right:

-The platform is not "magical" but will apparently support RWD, AWD, and FWD applications. Uh... Sounds vaguely Gandalf-ish to me

-Ford is NOT emulating Cadillac's supposed "failed strategy" of trickle-down chassis tech, but this platform will support both Lincoln and Ford products. Golly :/

-Ford is NOT emulating Cadillac's supposed strategy, and you know this based on what you then say "at least that is the rumor and leave it at that." Well, THAT has the ring of authority, right there.

-Then, after blowing your whole argument out of the water ALL BY YOURSELF with that "rumor" disclaimer you go on to describe all the (Monopoly?) money Ford is going to spend on PHASE II of the project.

Holy. Freaking. Crap.

You write some incredibly stupid things. But this may well be the capper.

 

The strategy being followed is the one where Dearborn is spending large dollars on a bespoke platform for Lincoln, with future trickle-down applications for Ford. I believe it's even RWD-based.

It's one of the the funniest parts of the whole "Cadillac needs to better" schtick. Cadillac has already moved into Phase 2 of this strategy with the Omega platform (Alpha being earmarked for the Camaro and all). Here wings is dissing it even as his employer emulates it.

Sad, really

Are you serious? Every automaker ever does that.  If Ford is copying GM in anything it isn't the "trickle down effect". MB? BMW? Audi? Everybody pushes their high end tech into their top tier products to showcase them. 

 

C'mon 'Bong.. I know you aren't a Ford guy but saying they are copying the "trickle down effect" is ludacris and you know it.

Ford doesn't do it.

Yet. :D

 

They don't? You mean to tell me the first EcoBoost was a 1.0l in the Fiesta? or was it in their largest, "fanciest"(I don't consider it fancy but you know it was the top of the line vehicle at the time) Ford Taurus SHO? Then their most popular trucks and now they have the 3.5eb in anything they can cram it in.

 

It is just how every automaker works. Not just GM.

Edited June 12, 2015 by ccap41

[El Kabong]

This is a topic worthy of discussion and I was going to bring it up myself as well. There is no need for personal attacks just because a member who is a fan of another brand brought it up.

Let's move forward keeping this in mind please.

Fair enough. But let's also look at the flimsiness of his counterargument. There is a huge difference between discussion and semantics. Edited June 12, 2015 by El Kabong

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

This is a topic worthy of discussion and I was going to bring it up myself as well.  There is no need for personal attacks just because a member who is a fan of another brand brought it up. 

 

Let's move forward keeping this in mind please. 

Thank you.

[Drew Dowdell]

 

This is a topic worthy of discussion and I was going to bring it up myself as well. There is no need for personal attacks just because a member who is a fan of another brand brought it up.

Let's move forward keeping this in mind please.

Fair enough. But let's also look at the flimsiness of his counterargument. There is a huge difference between discussion and semantics.

 

 

Attack arguments all you want. Back it up with facts and links. That's what we're here for.

 

Personal attacks are off limits. 

[El Kabong]

Very well. But from my perspective the point has been decisively made. I cited sales data, wings cited rumours. I pointed out the similarities in Lincoln's strategy, he refuted them and then used different terms that just contradicted what he said.

To further illustrate my point I'll just leave this link from Autoblog describing the chassis that Dearborn is spending all that cash on, and it's short AND long-term strategy for said platform.

http://www.autoblog.com/2014/10/27/lincoln-5-billion-revival-d6-chassis/

Edited June 12, 2015 by El Kabong

[Drew Dowdell]

 

 

 

The strategy being followed is the one where Dearborn is spending large dollars on a bespoke platform for Lincoln, with future trickle-down applications for Ford. I believe it's even RWD-based.

It's one of the the funniest parts of the whole "Cadillac needs to better" schtick. Cadillac has already moved into Phase 2 of this strategy with the Omega platform (Alpha being earmarked for the Camaro and all). Here wings is dissing it even as his employer emulates it.

Sad, really

You keep repeating this nonsense as if it’s true.  Lincoln is not creating some one-off ultra-expensive magical platform that will sweep in and save the day for Lincoln.  That does sound like Cadillac’s failed plan, based on sales and the topic of this thread, but it is NOT Lincolns.

No, what Ford is creating via improvements in flexible manufacturing, is a platform that is FLEXIBLE to any direction they want to go in, for both brands, to accommodate FWD or RWD.  At least that is the Rumor and leave it at that.  And that would only be small fraction of the monies allocated for their Phase II development that will propagate over the next 5-6 years. Phase I completed recently with the rollout of the new MKX. 

 

Otherwise, believe WTF you want.

Let's see if I got this right:

-The platform is not "magical" but will apparently support RWD, AWD, and FWD applications. Uh... Sounds vaguely Gandalf-ish to me

-Ford is NOT emulating Cadillac's supposed "failed strategy" of trickle-down chassis tech, but this platform will support both Lincoln and Ford products. Golly :/

-Ford is NOT emulating Cadillac's supposed strategy, and you know this based on what you then say "at least that is the rumor and leave it at that." Well, THAT has the ring of authority, right there.

-Then, after blowing your whole argument out of the water ALL BY YOURSELF with that "rumor" disclaimer you go on to describe all the (Monopoly?) money Ford is going to spend on PHASE II of the project.

Holy. Freaking. Crap.

You write some incredibly stupid things. But this may well be the capper.

 

Are you serious? Every automaker ever does that.  If Ford is copying GM in anything it isn't the "trickle down effect". MB? BMW? Audi? Everybody pushes their high end tech into their top tier products to showcase them. 

 

C'mon 'Bong.. I know you aren't a Ford guy but saying they are copying the "trickle down effect" is ludacris and you know it.

Ford doesn't do it.

Yet. :D

 

They don't? You mean to tell me the first EcoBoost was a 1.0l in the Fiesta? or was it in their largest, "fanciest"(I don't consider it fancy but you know it was the top of the line vehicle at the time) Ford Taurus SHO? Then their most popular trucks and now they have the 3.5eb in anything they can cram it in.

 

It is just how every automaker works. Not just GM.

 

 

I think he was saying it didn't trickle from Lincoln to Ford.   At best Lincoln got the 3.5EB at the same time when the MKS Ecoboost came out.   GM has been introducing technology in Cadillac first for a while now (and previously also Oldsmobile as it was more of an experimental tech division).  The 3.6 V6 started at Cadillac. The Northstar started at Cadillac. Magnetic ride control started at Cadillac.  Navigation started at Oldsmobile. Onstar started with Cadillac and Buick.  

[Guest George]

The elephant in the showroom is the CUE system...I'm on my 7th Cadillac, and it is my last unless the next one is available without CUE.  

[El Kabong]

Precisely.

You can't have a premium brand without premium tech that eventually makes its way down the line. See also: Alfred Sloan.

Edited June 12, 2015 by El Kabong

[El Kabong]

I modified an earlier post to include this. CCAP probably just saw the first draft, so I'll reiterate for clarity:

We're about to get a Cadillac-chassis Camaro whose chassis tech would be unthinkable if it hadn't underpinned two Cadillacs first. By the same token, the economics of scale allowed by building large amounts of Camaros helps amortize the cost of an expensive platform, or allows the beancounters to hold the line on Cadillac prices versus sales numbers.

By way of comparison: Cadillac's one platform will underpin three cars, none of which has any real competition in-house. Ford will use three platforms for the same-size or class of vehicles, and two of those platforms will have Ford sedan equivalents.

[ccap41]

^ I see more what you're talking about now, my bad man.

[El Kabong]

^ I see more what you're talking about now, my bad man.

No worries. I was doing some pretty good editing and stuff there for a bit *L*

There's such a thing as modular tech (fuel injectors, software, smaller components like that), and yes, all automakers do that. But when it comes to the expensive stuff like chassis, ideally you want to be able to develop state of the art stuff with the knowledge that it can eventually be less than state of the art expensive. This is what D6 is all about for Ford, and it is what both Omega and Alpha are for GM. We have already seen that the next BMW 7-Series chassis will be hard-pressed to match the weight savings of Omega, which is a testament to GM's engineering might when properly motivated and funded. Now, keep in mind that there are already rumours of an Omega-bodied Buick. So... A Buick with BMW-comparable chassis tech is possible. And Buick is Rung Two on the hierarchy.

Edited June 12, 2015 by El Kabong

[Drew Dowdell]

The elephant in the showroom is the CUE system...I'm on my 7th Cadillac, and it is my last unless the next one is available without CUE.  

 

CUE will continue in Cadillacs, but I have it on excellent authority that it will be getting a substantial upgrade and revision very very soon. (I'm actually expecting the announcement in the next 2 weeks)

[cp-the-nerd]

The CT6 had a pretty significant change to the CUE layout. I like the new physical controls.

 

[El Kabong]

CUE, like iDrive, will evolve rapidly. It'll be fine. As will the CT6. That interior does look good, don't it?

[surreal1272]

CUE, like iDrive, will evolve rapidly. It'll be fine. As will the CT6. That interior does look good, don't it?

I was a little unsure about the CT6 interior at first but after seeing much closer shots like this one, it has really grown on me. The materials look top notch and any update to CUE is welcome news. No physical volume button is a deal killer for me (I'm old school like that).

[cp-the-nerd]

There are physical volume buttons on the steering wheel, and at least now you can find the swipe bar without looking.

[surreal1272]

There are physical volume buttons on the steering wheel, and at least now you can find the swipe bar without looking.

True but old habits die hard sometimes 

 

More physical buttons for some of the other redundant controls are also a bonus for me. I don't want to search through several screens just to adjust the A/C for example. At least the CT6 seems to address that.

Edited June 12, 2015 by surreal1272

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

In regards to commonly used controls, I would put HVAC at the bottom of the list.  I set my auto climate to 70 deg and forget it.  

Radio and phone functions are at the top of the list, and those are on the steering wheel anyway.  So although I prefer more individual control buttons, I do not find myself using them that much anyway.

[hyperv6]

Well one has to step back and take in the whole picture here on what is going on.

 

As pointed out by several we have less models and higher price but we need to adjust more to see even more what is going on here.

We all knew going in that Cadillac is not longer expected to run high volumes. They are now a lower volume and higher profit vehicle. With this said even with selling less cars odds are GM is seeing more profit vs. the heavily discounted older lower price models that sold in a little higher numbers.

We also have to consider with the lower volumes higher percentage drops and gains are cars in the hundreds not thousands of units as high volume units see.

 

We also are seeing some very good cars but lets face it GM has made it clear that these are not the cars that those at GM with vision want. The folks who are not the problem have finally convinced GM to put the money up to make these cars just what they need to be and that is better than the others. Not just bench mark the others but set the bench mark. So while we now have $12 Billion dollars to spend it will take 5 years to see the results in the product. We will see improvements in dealers and marketing in the mean time.

 

As for who is number one, two three or even four it matters little as once GM gets better product going they will maintain and grow sales slowly. There is not going to be any rocket to number one here. Image and trust has to be earned one model  at time and even over a series of products. While this is going on the profit per unit sold will be as high or higher than the most profitable pick up trucks out there. Even sitting number 4 in sales GM will realize around 50% of their sedan profits from the low volume of Cadillac's they will sell.

 

That is why they have invested so much. Cadillac is and will be a car only a select few will be able to afford and buy. It no longer will be for the Faux rich that like to pretend. GM will make inroads and continue to make more money even at these lower volumes here. There is really little risk here for the most part as with this segment you have room to take these risk at these prices.

 

For the most part it is not much more expensive to make a car like the CTS over a Malibu from an engineering stand point. Now it does hold more content and better quality materials but the development is not much more and even then much of the technology trickles down and gets paid off with all the models it makes its way to.

 

Now for a dose of reality on Lincoln they were on their way out. Mulally if he had his way would have had them gone with their one brand thinking. with the way sales have been it was a case where it made sense till those inside Ford showed the profit potential of a Lincoln brand if done right. At this point those who saved Lincoln have preserved the brand and are working like Cadillac used to do and are working to make the best cars they can out of lesser platforms. They like GM of the past are working their platforms up and not down as GM is now doing. This ass backwards approach is not ideal but it is all they have for now. They too are wanting Ford to go all in like GM did for Cadillac but at this point that is not going to happen. So for now they will do the best they can with the Taurus transformed into a Continental and a Mustang transformed into some kind of coupe. They will supplement with the Ford SUV line much as Cadillac has been doing for profits. If they can prove their worth they may get the money they need but they will be years behind and at best challenging Lexus and Acura. They will make money but not as much per unit. They will have to rely on higher volumes and be the luxury of the masses. The Continental will replace the 300 as the favorite of the Bingo hall gray hairs and not the movers and shakers of Wall Street.

I do wish Ford would fund Lincoln properly as they are pissing away a chance to do it right. Some there have learned from GM and want to follow the same path. Too bad there is not enough of them.

 

As for the big picture just step back and look at all that is going on and that will be happening and it all will work out. These cars will be bringing in good money got GM and never have to be out selling Benz or BMW. Now as they do gain more market with time and new product it will be all the more.

 

The bottom line here for Cadillac is not volume but profits. Read the profits and follow the money. GM is selling Cadillac's like Cadillac's used to be sold not like high volume fancy Chevys. But I see some of you already understand this and a few others really have no clue. The industry is no longer one product plan fits all in the 80's and 90's. GM tired that and we know that worked out.  

[smk4565]

Lincoln is beyond saving to make them a luxury brand.  They could be used as a Buick competitor, perhaps Acura competitor at best.

 

Cadillac will spend $12 billion, but then what?  They better have another $12 billion over the next 5 years, because the competition doesn't sit still.  I question the long term commitment to the plan if sales don't pick up, and marketing could play a big role in that.

 

As far as profitability goes, GM turned a $2.8 billion profit last year, while Mercedes and BMW were closer to $7 billion.  Cadillac can't have that great of margins with the incentive spending they do, and if the GMC and Cadillac margins were so high, you'd think the company would post a higher total.

[balthazar]

Lincoln certainly isn't beyond 'saving' - look at how far mercedes came from the horrible state they were in the 70s & 80s and were building basically junk.