BMW News: Debut: 2016 BMW 7-Series

[Drew Dowdell]

CAFE is coming, yet no one cars that the Escalade is 6,000 lbs and gets 15 mpg. It still sells, and I don't see Cadillac making it all aluminum to get weight down.

The A8 4.0 gets 18/29 mpg, beats the LS460, S550 and 750i, and the A8 has the worst sales volume of the 4.

I am bit surprised the 750i is priced higher than the S550. It is like BMW telling people to buy the 740i by putting that big of a price premium on the V8.

I'm not sure what the Escalade has to do with the 7-Series or CT6's CAFE scores.

What I DO know is that GM was producing half-ton pickups that were producing 25mpg highway with port-injected smallblocks and (if memory serves) four-speed automatics. And that was two truck generations ago. They have the tech in hand, it's just that the customers at the time didn't demand it.

Overall corporate CAFE score. The Escalade sells really well and that is actually hurting their score. Not like it is going anywhere but they just need to make the big girl drink a little less. Or, make it bigger!

 

No way was GM making a v8 half ton TWO generations ago that was getting 25mpg. With the bragging rights that they would tout in their commercials there is no way they wouldn't utilize it. When gas was $4/gallon down here(US) the consumer didn't want a truck that got 25mpg????

 

The Avalanche could do 21 - 22 on the highway back with a 6-speed, so I imagine a fairly basic Silverado 1500 V8 could do at least that and probably better.

I probably should have clarified that the Silverado/Sierra in question was a hybrid. And it was the second-generation of GM's hybrid tech (they actually kicked things off with a mild hybrid version of the truck previous to that one). Point being: making a 5500-pound Escalade meet CAFE standards is going to be difficult, but quite doable.

The Escalade needs to do no such thing. It is a Corporate average.. not per model average. Escalade can go right on being a gas guzzler as long as they sell 3 Volts, a Bolt, and a Sonic or 3 for every one Escalade they sell (the ratios are made up, but you get my point).

But even still.. BMW and Mercedes just paid the fine for years and built it into their pricing. With transaction prices on the Escalade up $20,000 or so, GM could add a $500 per vehicle fine to the sticker price and buyers wouldn't even blink.

[El Kabong]

Ya, the same basic system was used in the Tahoe, pickups, and even the Escalade. There weren't a lot of takers, although the tech itself was quite viable.

I not sure what Ford's future plans are, but if I were to guess it would have to be cost-efficient. That isn't a troll attempt, but it IS a reflection of the money they've pumped into their truck program recently plus the ensuing vendor hassles putting a crimp in revenue. An EcoBoost hybrid, possibly with electrically-actuated turbos, makes the most sense to me at this point, but the 3.2L diesel is not out of the question.

Is the little 3.2 any good? I haven't heard anything about it. I mean I doubt they would make a bad engine but it seems odd they chose to do an I-5. right now it is only in the Transit, correct?

I don't know if that particular engine is any good. But based on my new purchase I can say that a 3L-sized turbo diesel can be a legit engine for a half-ton truck.

[Cmicasa the Great]

Interesting that BMW didn't mention a diesel as one of the engines.  I guess we have to wait a model year for the diesel and V12.  Which got me thinking, I am surprised they don't have a diesel S-class for the USA.  Unless the take rate was so low on the last one or perhaps they will wait for the new straight six turbo diesel before they offer it in the S-class.

 

The plug-in hybrid S-class is the lowest priced S-class, and it only gives up 9 hp and 1 lb-ft of torque to the 750i.  A much better option than BMW's wimpy hybrid.

 

 

speaking of... 

 

The idea that the CT6 is not an S-Class/7 series competitor is literally under-promising, and over-delivering by Cadillac.

 

Compare:

 

From Benz site:

 

1) The S-Class Plug-In Hybrid also offers multiple drive modes so you can customize how you want to spend and recover energy.

 

The CT6- Plug-In Hybrid will allow driver to choose among three operating modes named Normal, Sport and Hold:

 

 

2) The S-Class Plug-In Hybrid will drive solely on electric power up to 20 miles

 

   The CT6 Plug-In Hybrid will drive solely on electric power up to 37 miles

 

   The 740e Plug-In Hybrid will drive solely on electric power up to 23 miles

 

 

3) S-Class Plug-in Hybrid Combined power output of 436 hp, 479 lb-ft of torque (3.0-liter V6 gasoline engine + electric motor)

Acceleration: 0-to-60 mph in 5.2 seconds 

 

 CT6 Plug-in Hybrid combined power output of 335hp, 432 lb-ft of torque (2.0L Turbo+ Electric motor)

Acceleration: TBA.. but I'm betting it is lower than that 5.2 seconds

 

  740e combined power output of 308hp, 332 lb-ft of torque (2.0L Turbo+ Electric motor) in the X5e it gets to 60 in 6.5 seconmds so I would guess it should pull into 60 at about 6.2 in the 740e

 

 

4) S-Class Plug-In is est city/highway: 21/26 mpg

 

   CT6 Plug-in is est to be more than double that of the conventional CT6 (which we kno is similar in many respects, due to weigh savings, to that of the      

CTS (2.0L Turbo with 6speed gets 20/30MPG).. so a CT6 Plug in coming in at 40/60mpg??? 

 

Keep in mind that the S-Class Plug-In Hybrid is est (by C&D) to come in at an almost "Tahoe like" 5100lbs. I gonna throw the cash down on "Black"

Edited June 12, 2015 by Cmicasa the Great

[oldshurst442]

QUestion I have is, why are the German brands afraid of stylistic change??

It could be a "If it  aint broke, dont fix it" approach they are taking...

But now that Cadillac and Jaguar are gaining momentum...perhaps they will need  to crank it up in style just a tad...

 

I feel like Mercedes has borrowed Arts and Science from Cadillac and have put their own spin on it...

Their cars are angular as well

late 1990s

Very square

 

late 2000s

Some angular and round lines are appearing in the S Class

 

2015 S Class..Ill use the coupe

Sharp edges and creases have appeared...

 

CLS

albeit not as strong as Cadillac's design...creases and edges are very visible...

 

CLA

 

 

Sure...not quite Cadillac style Arts and Science angular lines...Mercedes does it its way...Mercedes uses rounded rear fenders and a rounded roof line as to mask their interpretation of Arts and Science...

Edited June 12, 2015 by oldshurst442

[balthazar]

I think that's logical. IIRC, it first showed up in one of the many SUVs over at MBUSA (GL? GLK?)
Prior to, the m-class was as round & amorphous as a bullfrog, but the GL(?) came out with a bunch of sharp edges that MBs never had before.

The issue is that now they have multiple 'schools' of design going; 'A&S' lines (SUVs), the 'Pontiac' line (CLA, S-Coupe), 'old school' line (s-class), 'modern sleek' (CLS) and 'the box the refrigerator came in' (sprinter/ metris). Depends on the day & the person you ask if that's either diversified, or schizophrenic.

 

 

 

But now that Cadillac and Jaguar are gaining momentum…

Jag has zero momentum- they have nice lines & the specs are competitive, but no one buys Jags.

 

 

Which got me thinking, I am surprised they don't have a diesel S-class for the USA.

"Everything should be available at launch!!" comes into play here. MB had a diesel AND a hybrid in the S-class, but they dropped them with the redesign. Probably put the money into the SCoupe instead.

Edited June 12, 2015 by balthazar

[smk4565]

 

Interesting that BMW didn't mention a diesel as one of the engines.  I guess we have to wait a model year for the diesel and V12.  Which got me thinking, I am surprised they don't have a diesel S-class for the USA.  Unless the take rate was so low on the last one or perhaps they will wait for the new straight six turbo diesel before they offer it in the S-class.

 

The plug-in hybrid S-class is the lowest priced S-class, and it only gives up 9 hp and 1 lb-ft of torque to the 750i.  A much better option than BMW's wimpy hybrid.

 

 

speaking of... 

 

The idea that the CT6 is not an S-Class/7 series competitor is literally under-promising, and over-delivering by Cadillac.

 

Compare:

 

From Benz site:

 

1) The S-Class Plug-In Hybrid also offers multiple drive modes so you can customize how you want to spend and recover energy.

 

The CT6- Plug-In Hybrid will allow driver to choose among three operating modes named Normal, Sport and Hold:

 

 

2) The S-Class Plug-In Hybrid will drive solely on electric power up to 20 miles

 

   The CT6 Plug-In Hybrid will drive solely on electric power up to 37 miles

 

   The 740e Plug-In Hybrid will drive solely on electric power up to 23 miles

 

 

3) S-Class Plug-in Hybrid Combined power output of 436 hp, 479 lb-ft of torque (3.0-liter V6 gasoline engine + electric motor)

Acceleration: 0-to-60 mph in 5.2 seconds 

 

 CT6 Plug-in Hybrid combined power output of 335hp, 432 lb-ft of torque (2.0L Turbo+ Electric motor)

Acceleration: TBA.. but I'm betting it is lower than that 5.2 seconds

 

  740e combined power output of 308hp, 332 lb-ft of torque (2.0L Turbo+ Electric motor) in the X5e it gets to 60 in 6.5 seconmds so I would guess it should pull into 60 at about 6.2 in the 740e

 

 

4) S-Class Plug-In is est city/highway: 21/26 mpg

 

   CT6 Plug-in is est to be more than double that of the conventional CT6 (which we kno is similar in many respects, due to weigh savings, to that of the      

CTS (2.0L Turbo with 6speed gets 20/30MPG).. so a CT6 Plug in coming in at 40/60mpg??? 

 

Keep in mind that the S-Class Plug-In Hybrid is est (by C&D) to come in at an almost "Tahoe like" 5100lbs. I gonna throw the cash down on "Black"

 

The V8 S-class gets 17/26 mpg, I am pretty sure a V6 hybrid will beat that.   In the CLS the bi-turbo V6 gets 20/30 mpg, granted it isn't as heavy a car as the S-class, but if they had an S400, I think it could get 18/28 mpg.   Not sure how a hybrid system would add virtually no mpg gain on and S-class and a 200% gain on a CT6. 

 

S250 Bluetec was World Green car of the year in 2012, and S500 hybrid was runner-up in 2015.   I didn't see the A8 or 7-series winning anything.

 

CT6 poses no threat to the S-class, it won't be priced high enough for people to cross shop it.  The 7-series barely mounts a challenge, and the other guys are also rans in this segment.

[Cmicasa the Great]

 

 

Interesting that BMW didn't mention a diesel as one of the engines.  I guess we have to wait a model year for the diesel and V12.  Which got me thinking, I am surprised they don't have a diesel S-class for the USA.  Unless the take rate was so low on the last one or perhaps they will wait for the new straight six turbo diesel before they offer it in the S-class.

 

The plug-in hybrid S-class is the lowest priced S-class, and it only gives up 9 hp and 1 lb-ft of torque to the 750i.  A much better option than BMW's wimpy hybrid.

 

 

speaking of... 

 

The idea that the CT6 is not an S-Class/7 series competitor is literally under-promising, and over-delivering by Cadillac.

 

Compare:

 

From Benz site:

 

1) The S-Class Plug-In Hybrid also offers multiple drive modes so you can customize how you want to spend and recover energy.

 

The CT6- Plug-In Hybrid will allow driver to choose among three operating modes named Normal, Sport and Hold:

 

 

2) The S-Class Plug-In Hybrid will drive solely on electric power up to 20 miles

 

   The CT6 Plug-In Hybrid will drive solely on electric power up to 37 miles

 

   The 740e Plug-In Hybrid will drive solely on electric power up to 23 miles

 

 

3) S-Class Plug-in Hybrid Combined power output of 436 hp, 479 lb-ft of torque (3.0-liter V6 gasoline engine + electric motor)

Acceleration: 0-to-60 mph in 5.2 seconds 

 

 CT6 Plug-in Hybrid combined power output of 335hp, 432 lb-ft of torque (2.0L Turbo+ Electric motor)

Acceleration: TBA.. but I'm betting it is lower than that 5.2 seconds

 

  740e combined power output of 308hp, 332 lb-ft of torque (2.0L Turbo+ Electric motor) in the X5e it gets to 60 in 6.5 seconmds so I would guess it should pull into 60 at about 6.2 in the 740e

 

 

4) S-Class Plug-In is est city/highway: 21/26 mpg

 

   CT6 Plug-in is est to be more than double that of the conventional CT6 (which we kno is similar in many respects, due to weigh savings, to that of the      

CTS (2.0L Turbo with 6speed gets 20/30MPG).. so a CT6 Plug in coming in at 40/60mpg??? 

 

Keep in mind that the S-Class Plug-In Hybrid is est (by C&D) to come in at an almost "Tahoe like" 5100lbs. I gonna throw the cash down on "Black"

 

The V8 S-class gets 17/26 mpg, I am pretty sure a V6 hybrid will beat that.   In the CLS the bi-turbo V6 gets 20/30 mpg, granted it isn't as heavy a car as the S-class, but if they had an S400, I think it could get 18/28 mpg.   Not sure how a hybrid system would add virtually no mpg gain on and S-class and a 200% gain on a CT6. 

 

S250 Bluetec was World Green car of the year in 2012, and S500 hybrid was runner-up in 2015.   I didn't see the A8 or 7-series winning anything.

 

CT6 poses no threat to the S-class, it won't be priced high enough for people to cross shop it.  The 7-series barely mounts a challenge, and the other guys are also rans in this segment.

 

 

 

Got my S-Class numbers from Benz site.. so maybe the Germans are doing what they obviously do very well; lie their asses off to get idiots in the showrooms convincing the fools that they are actually better

[smk4565]

I think that's logical. IIRC, it first showed up in one of the many SUVs over at MBUSA (GL? GLK?)

Prior to, the m-class was as round & amorphous as a bullfrog, but the GL(?) came out with a bunch of sharp edges that MBs never had before.

The issue is that now they have multiple 'schools' of design going; 'A&S' lines (SUVs), the 'Pontiac' line (CLA, S-Coupe), 'old school' line (s-class), 'modern sleek' (CLS) and 'the box the refrigerator came in' (sprinter/ metris). Depends on the day & the person you ask if that's either diversified, or schizophrenic.

 

 

 

But now that Cadillac and Jaguar are gaining momentum…

Jag has zero momentum- they have nice lines & the specs are competitive, but no one buys Jags.

 

 

 

Which got me thinking, I am surprised they don't have a diesel S-class for the USA.

"Everything should be available at launch!!" comes into play here. MB had a diesel AND a hybrid in the S-class, but they dropped them with the redesign. Probably put the money into the SCoupe instead.

They have a diesel S-class, it just isn't sold here.  If you go to Europe you can buy one, it isn't like they lack the product, they are just choosing not to sell it here for some reason.  The take rate must be too low.

 

I think Mercedes styling goes in cycles.  In the 50s and 60s they were very rounded, in the 70s they started to do straighter sides while keeping the round lights.  In the 80s and early 90s they were very blocky and squared off, then they went back to curvy, rounded body lines in the early 2000s, they did a brief stint of sharper edges and straight lines with the 08 C-class, 2010 E-class, and the GL, but they seem to be going back to rounded off styling.  I tend to think they are at their best with the more rounded off bodies, seems more elegant.

[oldshurst442]

 

I think Mercedes styling goes in cycles.  In the 50s and 60s they were very rounded, in the 70s they started to do straighter sides while keeping the round lights.  In the 80s and early 90s they were very blocky and squared off, then they went back to curvy, rounded body lines in the early 2000s, they did a brief stint of sharper edges and straight lines with the 08 C-class, 2010 E-class, and the GL, but they seem to be going back to rounded off styling.  I tend to think they are at their best with the more rounded off bodies, seems more elegant.

 

 

True to what you said...however...their cars were either rounded...or square...in the past....today...ever since Cadillac is finally on M-B's radar screen...and oh hell yeah...M-B is taking notice...M-B's design language has a tad of Arts and Science angular and sharp edges and creases to their body work...

 

somewhere between yourself, myself and Balthazar's description lies the truth about how M-Bs are styled...but dont you forget...Cadillac's Arts and Science is very visible in M-B's design language...

 

What is cool about that...is that M-B is copying Cadillac again...and Cadillac is leading the way again...

 

Are those fins on a late 60s Mercedes Benz?

 

Oh why yes it is!!!

Its sooooo awesome that no matter what Cadillac does...and no matter where Cadillac stands in the minds of people...Cadillac ALWAYS sets the trends...

There is no denying that Caddy's Arts and Science exists with Mercedes Cars...

Edited June 12, 2015 by oldshurst442

[smk4565]

The S500 plug in doesn't have an EPA rating yet.  I did find a European test drive of it, and in real world driving they got 29.4 mpg US as an average and 0-60 was 5.0 seconds.  I think those are solid numbers for a full size luxury car.  And the hybrid costs the same as the V8, they don't make you pay more for it.  So if you trade .2 or .4 seconds of 0-60 time and the sound of a V8, you get about 10 mpg more, which is a pretty good deal.  I guarantee the 7-series and CT6 won't offer their hybrid as the lowest priced model, and Lexus tacks on like $20k for their hybrid V8 that gets lame mileage anyway, and is still less powerful than the S550, because the Lexus V8 is old and weak and unchanged since 2007.

[G. David Felt]

Call me less than impressed. Is the new 7 series nice looking yes, but like others have stated very much a larger version of the 3 series. For the kind of money they are asking for I expect better.

 

Interior is where I am dumb founded. How can you say this is anything but a failure. Bland straight dash with an after thought screen screwed into the center of the dash. The 1980's console was more a driving center in the 7 series then than this is now.

 

Interior from the first 7 series in the 80's

 

 

2016 7 series interior

 

[Cmicasa the Great]

^^^ I agree... the part I'm having trouble with is why people are thinking that the BMW interior is superior to the CT6 in terms of design or quality... just because. The only thing I will give the 7series over the CT6 in reality is that it will offer that driverless parking feature.. cool as $h!. Outside of that.. I am still in #TeamCadillac all the way.

 

 

yes

 

 

[El Kabong]

BMW's interiors have never been more than adequate, even on their most advanced cars. The most glaring example of this to my mind is the i8.

[Frisky Dingo]

Some things I'd like to add-

 

 

First off, in all honesty, I'm not blown away by any of these cars. From the S Class to the CT6. If it were my money, and I HAD to buy one from this class, it'd probably be an A8/S8. Their powertrain combined with their gorgeous interiors would probably seal the deal for me. That said, I can't really justify spending the money these things fetch. They're slightly bigger/nicer versions of cars that already offer a ton of luxury and content. And better driving dynamics.

 

I just feel like in the year 2015, your six figure halo luxury model needs to drop jaws and wow people. That doesn't mean it has to be extreme, but it needs to look expensive and have massive presence. And I don't think any of these cars do. BMW should have made the new 7 look like a 4 door version of their Gran Lusso Concept. Cadillac had at the very least be making whatever comes in above the CT6 look like either the Ciel or the Elmiraj. These cars should stop people on the street and make them envious and lustful. Not be mistaken for the model one, or even two, rungs below in the lineup. Somebody needs to step up drop a bomb in the segment. 

 

As for the interior argument, I still like Audi's interiors the best. I think they have the perfect blend of materials, design, and ergonomics. BMW's aren't amazing, but they're nicer than a lot of people give credit for. The materials may not match Audi and MB's, but they're still certainly as good or better than Cadillac's, and they're not plagued by that disastrous CUE. Truth is, all of them have plenty nice interiors, but none of them are really incredible.

 

Regarding powertrains, a lot of fuss is made over I4's in this segment, but people just need to expect it is what it is. And it's inevitable. I don't have a problem with it, but I'd prefer it at least be paired with a hybrid system for some extra guts. I still wouldn't want one, however. Give me at least a boosted 8, or nothing at all.