Random Thoughts Thread

[oldshurst442]

On 2/8/2023 at 10:18 AM, ccap41 said:

My honest opinion is that those big guns in Merc, Ferrari, and Red Bull are just scared. I'm sure Cadillac/GM/Andretti can justify how they'll bring more total revenue to the sport but I think they're more scared of a legitimate OEM coming into the sport and bringing with them a truly competitive car. I think it will take some time to get their feet under them so I wouldn't expect a podium-finishing car in the first year but I/we KNOW they have it in them to learn and engineer with the best. 

I don't really like Alpine supplying them their power unit the first two years but I guess if that's what they need to do to get into the sport, then that's what they'll have to do. I'd MUCH prefer a Cadillac car with a Cadillac power unit. A Nissan(Renault) power unit in a Cadillac.. just makes me cringe a little. 

They already have one race under their belts this season, Rolex 24hr of Daytona. They finished 3rd & 4th to the Acuras which were just waaaay faster cars. 

I understand 100% on why you dont like an Alpine powered Cadillac  F1 car, even for a couple of years.   I share the same sentiments.  

But its a faster learning curve.  F1 bosses ask what Cadillac has to offer, but Cadillac asks the same of F1.  Cadillac and GM need a return of investment as well.   

F1 engines and the computer contolled suspension technologies are not the same with the other General Motors racing leagues that GM is involved in.  To engineer a 1.6 liter V6 Formula One engine from the ground up and be  succesful with it getting a couple of podiums will take a looong time, let alone to have it be reliable...  

Corvette Racing in IMSA , Cadillac Racing in IMSA , and Chevrolet in Indy and  Nascar with the "Camaro" already have the tools and software to analyse what engine speeds and RPMs are necessary in the curves of the specific race circuits.  What suspension tunings are needed at the various race tracks etc...    So that learning curve WILL be done by the Cadillac race team WITH Andretti and his team's expertise.  

Its the knowledge of what kind of 1.6 liter V6 engine is needed to compete on the FIRST day of RACING DAY that Alpine's involvement will be needed for those first two years.   Cadillac has the expertise  to whip an engine just like that, but when Mercedes and Ferrari and all others are waaaaaay past engine development and are at the stage of trying to cheat the rules is where a new team, not only Cadillac, is at a disadvantage.  

I liken that situation as how the NHL does its expansion teams.   Each existing team gets to protect a certain amount of forwards and defensemen and 1 goalie.  And the expansion team picks the unprotected players from the league and gets to have a competing team from the moment the puck drops from the expansion team's first game.  What is an expansion team to do?  Suit up also-rans, has-beens and 18 year olds and years of finishing last to rely on draft picks? It wouldnt be fun for the expansion team's fan base to see their team lose and lose and lose and lose some more for 4-5-6...10 years before the expansion team could field a contender?  

IMSA, when Aston Martin and then with Ford, sandbagged the other racing teams so that the newcomers have a chance to win.  Im sure Mercedes or Ferrari wont be thrilled by having restricter plates on their engines to restrict horsepower so Cadillac could have a chance to win if Cadillac were to engineer an engine on their own for the first year...

To put it another way...I as a Bruins fan...was PISSED to have lost Jeremy Lauzon to the Seattle Kraken.  Or Colin Miller to Las Vegas.  But...as a hockey fan, it was fun seeing Las Vegas go to the Cup final in the first year or seeing the moves they made to be competitive 2 years later. Ditto for the Kraken.   The Kraken are not too shabby.  Sucks for teams like Anaheim, San Jose and Vancouver...   But hey...Seattle and Las Vegas had to pay a shyte load of money to the other NHL owners.  They have to fill the seats with fans.  Wouldnt be in the interest of the rest of the NHL, the NHLPA, the Kraken and the Knights to have the Knights and Kraken lose and have the new stadiums empty if the NHL operated as how Formula One seems to want to operate...

 

 

Not eloquent what I said. Possibly too long and wordy.  I had a great way to explain myself yesterday...but the site was down...

You guys get this post instead...

[ccap41]

14 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

Its the knowledge of what kind of 1.6 liter V6 engine is needed to compete on the FIRST day of RACING DAY that Alpine's involvement will be needed for those first two years.   Cadillac has the expertise  to whip an engine just like that, but when Mercedes and Ferrari and all others are waaaaaay past engine development and are at the stage of trying to cheat the rules is where a new team, not only Cadillac, is at a disadvantage.  

But, if it's a 2026 entry, every single team is on a new learning curve. That's why 2026 is a target for a few new teams. They will be "merging" their new EV technology with raving technology and that's one way companies like Ford are justifying putting resources into F1. 

If Cadillac enters in 2026 with an Alpine power unit, it'll be an all-new unit, just like every other car in the field in 2026. 

[oldshurst442]

7 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

But, if it's a 2026 entry, every single team is on a new learning curve. That's why 2026 is a target for a few new teams. They will be "merging" their new EV technology with raving technology and that's one way companies like Ford are justifying putting resources into F1. 

If Cadillac enters in 2026 with an Alpine power unit, it'll be an all-new unit, just like every other car in the field in 2026. 

I did not know that.  Many things I did not know of...or more honestly, didnt put the effort to inform myself proper and spewed off an opinion. 

For whatever reason, I ignored and thought that the new engine tech and rules would be applied after 2026. 

I...have modified my opinion vastly in this regard concerning the power unit issue.  I now AGREE with the Formula One owners to question Cadillac and GM as to why they wouldnt want to engineer power unit of their own.  Everybody, like you said, is on equal footing in 2026.  The same learning curve for everybody.  

It looks like we are both on the same page though, regarding this whole thing with F1, the FIA, Cadillac and Andretti.  Its a mess with the F1 owners and the opposite opinion that the FIA seems to hold, and admittedely, its a mess with Cadillac and Alpine with Cadillac wanting to use someone else's engine tech for 2 years.   

[ccap41]

31 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

I did not know that.  Many things I did not know of...or more honestly, didnt put the effort to inform myself proper and spewed off an opinion. 

For whatever reason, I ignored and thought that the new engine tech and rules would be applied after 2026. 

I...have modified my opinion vastly in this regard concerning the power unit issue.  I now AGREE with the Formula One owners to question Cadillac and GM as to why they wouldnt want to engineer power unit of their own.  Everybody, like you said, is on equal footing in 2026.  The same learning curve for everybody.  

It looks like we are both on the same page though, regarding this whole thing with F1, the FIA, Cadillac and Andretti.  Its a mess with the F1 owners and the opposite opinion that the FIA seems to hold, and admittedely, its a mess with Cadillac and Alpine with Cadillac wanting to use someone else's engine tech for 2 years.   

I mean, I do still understand why they'd outsource their power unit because teams are currently developing their 2026 power units and if Cadillac weren't starting yet, they would be behind the curve. I just don't really like it. 

I get it. I don't like it as a somebody who would want to see a Cadillac powered by a Cadillac. 

I also think it would be an easy sticker to add to the side, "Powered by UIltium" to advertise their electric vehicles. 

[oldshurst442]

22 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

I mean, I do still understand why they'd outsource their power unit because teams are currently developing their 2026 power units and if Cadillac weren't starting yet, they would be behind the curve. I just don't really like it. 

I get it. I don't like it as a somebody who would want to see a Cadillac powered by a Cadillac. 

I also think it would be an easy sticker to add to the side, "Powered by UIltium" to advertise their electric vehicles. 

Ill be back for this.  Id like to continue our chit chat.   I got to to go to work.  

I agree 100% BTW.   I like the fact that we are on the same page.  I like to hear more of your opinion on this...especially considering Ford is going racing in F1 and all what the entails regarding Ford in F1, regarding Ford VS Ferrari and Ford VS GM (Cadillac) especially if  Andretti/Cadillac will not be accepted but the possibilities of what happens in F1 if Andretti/Cadillac become a team.     To bring American rivalry to a European entity while at the same time flaming an old rivalry with Ferrari must be a very exciting time for FoMoCo and its fans.  

[G. David Felt]

This is cool seeing the GMC EV Pickup out and about being tested.

2024 GMC Sierra EV Prototype Spotted Testing (gmauthority.com)

[G. David Felt]

This is interesting as 4 people with knowledge of the Monday Announcement by Ford but unable to be identified as they are not allowed to talk to the press let the cat out of the bag.

Ford to announce $2.5B battery plant in Marshall with Chinese partner (detroitnews.com)

One has to wonder how the redneck owners of Ford Products will feel about a Chinese company being one of the biggest battery cell builders/suppliers for Ford EVs?

Interesting times we live in for sure.

[G. David Felt]

Interesting race review for the fastest SUV.

 

[G. David Felt]

Happy Birthday @Chris_Doane

Been so long since we seen him post anything here and I wonder what he is up to? 

[oldshurst442]

@ccap41

I dont follow any racing leagues.  I know of certain things that go on so Im not completely in the dark, so bare with me and my opinions.  I may hit the head on the nail on some things and my opinion of it might sound reasonable, but othertimes I may be waaaay out on left field and my opinion on the matter will be quite wrong...

 I know that Indy car uses a 2.2 liter turbo V6.   I just informed myself that  with hybrid assist is coming for 2024. 

I know that IMSA in the former GT class with Corvette has a 5.5 liter limit with I think is a 560 horsepower limit.  

The class that Cadillac competes in also has a 5.5 liter limit and I think the RPMs are also limited but the horsepower levels are allowed to reach 700 horsepower?  or something like that.  

In NASCAR...there is a 358 cubic inch limit, it MUST be a V8, up until recently it had to be carbureted...and I think on a few race tracks, the engine is also limited on horsepower.  

Anyway... 

Cadillac does NOT build its own racing engines.  They are corporate engines. General Motors corporate engines.  BUT...the truth of it all, its Chevrolet V8s...   The V6 in Indycar is a Chevrolet.   Buick and Oldsmobile actually built race engines for Indycar and Nascar but those days are long gone...

Another point I want to say, and correct me if Im wrong, and to the other things I just said, is that even in IMSA, the 5.5 liter V8 is not a pure Cherolet design 100%.  Corvette racing and Pratt and Miller have designed that engine and its not 100% based on the Chevrolet Small Block.   The C8-R engine WITH the Z06 engine are as close to each other as ever...  But in years past, when the 6.2 liter was in the Corvette, the C7-R used a 5.5 liter that was not necessarily the same as that 6.2 liter.   The LS7 from the C6 Z06 shared many parts with the C6-R 7 liter, but IMSA changed the rules and had a cap on displacement.

OK...with all that said and done, GM racing on the whole would NOT have a hard time designing a Formula One 6 cylinder with hybrid assist as GM racing on the whole has a lot of right now experience in developping and racing many TYPES of engines.  

358 cubic inch V8s

5.5 liter V8s

2.2 liter V6s

Indycar is as close to Formula One as they could get in many ways.  Although different in many many ways, not so different that they couldnt engineer a V6 with hybrid assist ON THEIR OWN WITHOUT the help of Alpine.  

I understand their reasoning to go with Alpine for 2 years.  Maybe its for the fuel effiency requirements of F1 that are different than Indycar's? 

I understand the concerns for the Formula One owners.  (Now that you have pointed out important information to me)

I also do NOT understand why they would want to use Alpine engines for 2 years as they have the expertise and know-how from Pratt-Miller, Corvette Racing, Andretti, Indycar WITH the help of Honda no less.

I also do NOT understand  that THEY do NOT understand the very MARKETING implications that YOU have pointed out BY going with Alpine for 2 years.  That decision WILL affect Ultium in the marketplace by GOING with Alpine and by NOT being an Ulitum powered race car.  Those last 2 statements seem similar but are 2 different things.  Have a race car NOT being powered by your brand and being powered by a competitor is NOT a smart marketing move...even for 2 years...  

With that being said, imagine what the racing grid could be like when the Euro racers and fans and announcers and IN the paddocks where ALL the Euro-snob owners are realizing that Ford AND Cadillac are beside them ON that aforementioned racing grid...

Now imagine us North Americans IF on racing day we KNOW that a Ford powered F1 car and a Cadillac powered F1 car is leaving Ferrari and Mercedes in the dust?   

 

Edited February 12, 2023 by oldshurst442

[oldshurst442]

https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/rooting-super-bowl-lvii-says-194400008.html

 

Whether you’ll be rooting for the Philadelphia Eagles or the Kansas City Chiefs this Super Bowl Sunday, how well you score with your financial habits might be tied to your preferred team. Indeed, a new survey found that, for example, Eagles fans are more positive about their finances — but Chiefs fans are better at having emergency savings.

 

Really?    Because I...as a Dallas Cowboys fan, its more like Im rooting for the Chiefs to win this Superbowl because well...PHOQUE the Eagles!!!  But hey...with all the useless false information and disinformation today, why not schlub this shyte on top of all the other shyte we read on the interwebs. 

Oh...what an anticlimactic way to finish the last 8 seconds.   A couple of nothing plays to only to Hail Mary it falling short by a country mile to an empty field with nobody around for miles... 

PS:  Im suuuuuper happy that Mahomes gets his 2nd in 3 appearances and possibly on his way to maybe making a run to try to catch up tp Brady...   Anyway...Troy was 3 on 3.  Just sayin'.  

[oldshurst442]

Possibly new Lambo to replace old Lambo

 

And for this possible new Lambo to replace the old one, Im happy for the Corvette C8 because the way the Chevy designers stylized the C8, they  ended up with a forward thinking design DESPITE what some haterz were saying that the C8 is ugly or overdone or whatever they were saying...

Similar pointed nose. Similar front end air ducts.  Similar kind of air entry in front of the rear wheels.  One is CLEARLY Lambo DNA while the with the other, one could see faint Corvette DNA.  Hey...the Corvette evolved greatly...    

Now...Im NOT saying Lambo copyed Corvette, and Im NOT saying that the C8 is NOT European mid-engine mainly Lambo inspired, because it is...with a touch of Corvette in that Euro/Lambo inspiration with a small dab of Ferrari as well.  What I AM saying is that Lambo has ALWAYS been aggressive and arrogant with a smidgen of boyracer.   Coincidentally, Corvette too, has ALWAYS been aggressive and arrogant with a smidgen of boyracer and when Corvette went mid-engined, the C8's styling has at least been on par with what is going on for Italo-exotics and not in a past tense kinda way...but in a future kinda way.  And THAT is a good thing for Corvette going forward in the future. 

Pure modern, as in the last 15 years at least, Lambo  rear styling.   With a GREAT way to place the exhausts!!!   Hopefully that styling exercise makes it to the real thing.  

 

Two very very different rear ends...but...the Vette gets some hate for having Camaro taillights.   

*SIGH*  

The Vette rear end IS busy, maybe TOO busy, but regarding the lights, what I see is taillights that emulate what Lambo has been doing with its tailights since a long time.  And I actually PREFER those so called Camaro lights.  I believe that the classical round Vette lights wouldnt be jivin'  with the new mid-engine look...

 

The one thing I do not like about the Ferrari rear...is the quad lights.  For me...it doesnt work.

 For me...this works more

 

And I see what the Corvette stylizers were aining for...and I approve.   

Let me remind my readers that Ferrari is the Italian exotic car brand that I prefer over Lamborghini.  Just wanted to point that out. 

[G. David Felt]

Very COOL, 3 more Cadillac EVs we will see this year for production in 2024.

Trio of Cadillac EVs to debut in 2023, start production in 2024 (greencarreports.com)

[G. David Felt]

Seems that VW is rethinking the names of their EVs.

Seems the names will live on as ID.ProductName.

VW says best-selling SUV will go electric as the ID.Tiguan (electrek.co)

ID2 is getting a complete redesign based on the new MEB+ platform which will see the ID2 become the ID.Golf along with the ID.Tiguan.

[G. David Felt]

This is an awesome read.

Hyundai Ioniq 6 Gets Low Starting Price and Tesla-Beating Range (businessinsider.com)

 

[G. David Felt]

Latest reviews are just bashing Tesla as junk compared to Korean or other EV products. 

Kia, Hyundai Catching up to Elon Musk's Tesla With Stylish Electric SUVs (businessinsider.com)

Tesla Model Y Vs. Kia EV6: Comparing the Sporty Electric SUVs (businessinsider.com)

Just looks alone show how dated Tesla has become.

EV6 versus Tesla Y

Ioniq 6 versus Tesla 3

[ccap41]

I still think the Model 3 is a much cleaner, better looking vehicle. 

While I do like the awkward Ionic 6, the Model 3 looks better.

[Robert Hall]

The Model 3 is bland and generic, looks like all of Teslas other dated designs..but the generic consumers seem to like them.

 

Edited February 23, 2023 by Robert Hall

[ccap41]

I agree it's on the bland side but bland isn't always bad. Some cleaner/simpler/bland designs in an ocean of vehicles with non-functional vents and tailpipes can be a little refreshing. 

 

[ccap41]

[oldshurst442]

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

I agree it's on the bland side but bland isn't always bad. Some cleaner/simpler/bland designs in an ocean of vehicles with non-functional vents and tailpipes can be a little refreshing. 

 

100% in agreement!!!

[oldshurst442]

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

All nonsense, useless tacky add-ons for boy-racer image that does NOTHING especially on CUVs.  Electric CUVs.   If the Chevy CUV SS had those vents be functional to let the air flow  through for less drag for more efficiency of some sort, then I wouldnt be so critical and in agreement with you. But...its plastic boy-racer overkill.   Like like you said, cleaner, simpler designs just means less is more!!!  

The Tesla Model 3 and Y are frumpy.  Too frumpy.  Simple and clean but way too frumpy.  And that has dated the design quite fast since other OEMs have decided to join the EV club.  But....the Model S looks good to this day.  It has aged and its loooong in the tooth ONLY because its OVER a decade old now.  But the Model S is a very clean design.  Its sleek and it has looked great all this time BECAUSE its a clean no nonsense design.  

[oldshurst442]

 

 

[G. David Felt]

@Drew Dowdell @surreal1272 @oldshurst442 @Robert Hall @ccap41 @riviera74 I am sure there are many and I wish like slack they had an @channel ability as this video is just too funny. Does not matter if your drive a car, suv, truck, ev or ICE. This is the Union St. Exit to down town Seattle at the Convention center and the off-ramp is a 50 plus year old off-ramp that is way too short and clearly so many people do not pay attention to the signs that go from 60mph to 20 mph in about 500 feet. As such, I just discovered that one of the folks working in the building at the off-ramp has built a compilation video of all the crashes. Enjoy Seattle Stupidity at it's best.

 

Found a tweet of the off ramp and someone actually driving it. Seems it is 60 to 30 in a few hundred feet at best and then like 50 feet to 20mph and around the corner. Crazy.

 

[G. David Felt]

Exciting to see the spy photos of the EV above the LYRIQ out in winter weather testing.

Electric Cadillac Crossover Above Lyriq Spied Testing (gmauthority.com)

I do like the more traditional upright back on this suv.

[ccap41]

17 minutes ago, David said:

@Drew Dowdell @surreal1272 @oldshurst442 @Robert Hall @ccap41 @riviera74 I am sure there are many and I wish like slack they had an @channel ability as this video is just too funny. Does not matter if your drive a car, suv, truck, ev or ICE. This is the Union St. Exit to down town Seattle at the Convention center and the off-ramp is a 50 plus year old off-ramp that is way too short and clearly so many people do not pay attention to the signs that go from 60mph to 20 mph in about 500 feet. As such, I just discovered that one of the folks working in the building at the off-ramp has built a compilation video of all the crashes. Enjoy Seattle Stupidity at it's best.

 

Found a tweet of the off ramp and someone actually driving it. Seems it is 60 to 30 in a few hundred feet at best and then like 50 feet to 20mph and around the corner. Crazy.

 

I think you may have shared this awhile ago or maybe I just came across it elsewhere awhile ago.

Either way, it's pretty crazy to have an offramp to a stoplight in such a short distance. Any car shouldn't have an issue but larger SUVs, half-ton truck and larger, and box trucks will have to really know the area to be able to make this turn or potential stop. 

[G. David Felt]

2 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

I think you may have shared this awhile ago or maybe I just came across it elsewhere awhile ago.

Either way, it's pretty crazy to have an offramp to a stoplight in such a short distance. Any car shouldn't have an issue but larger SUVs, half-ton truck and larger, and box trucks will have to really know the area to be able to make this turn or potential stop. 

I think you might have seen it elsewhere as I never seen the videos till, I was cruzing during a boring all hands meeting on YouTube and came across it today. Then I find on binging the twitter coverage from one of the local news stations.

I agree with you that the exit ramp that is there and I took a couple weeks back to take the wife to the Flower and Garden show at the convention center is short and terrible off ramp to a red light. Yet it was built back in 1960 when autos were a different breed.

I will say they just finished a major expansion of the convention center and hotel rooms to attract tech conventions and I was surprised as many locals that this ramp was not closed for good. Politicians got their way with a old, design poor exit ramp that really should have been made to go away.

[oldshurst442]

33 minutes ago, David said:

I will say they just finished a major expansion of the convention center and hotel rooms to attract tech conventions and I was surprised as many locals that this ramp was not closed for good. Politicians got their way with a old, design poor exit ramp that really should have been made to go away.

Montreal also has a not so quite similar road. But a deadly one. A small tunnel.  

It is called 'tunnel de la mort' in French.  Tunnel of death.   

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunnel_de_la_mort

The wiki page doesnt do enough to define how dangerous it is.  It is called tunnel of death because there has been MULTIPLE deadly car crashes there.  Even BEFORE 1992.  It has always had the nickname as far as I can remember.  As far back as even the late 1970s...     Both intersections have this tunnel thing going on that caused blind spots and drivers could not see the traffic lights properly so on both intersections, both ways, drivers couldnt see the red light to stop and just burned the red light causing deadly collisions.  Only one set of tunnels have been demolished in the ealry 2000s.  Both tunnels should have been demolished but nothing has happened yet. 

To add more danger to this shytty tunnel, the sidewalk is too small for pedastrians but because the bridge itself belongs to different railway companies, nothing is happening.  The news report is condemning the tunnel, the railway companies and the city by shaming them about the dangers,  If you watch the video, even if you dont understand, there are several images where one could see how dangerous it is, especially in the winter.  There is a public voice, thanx in part to journalism like this to change this intersection.   Report made in 2019...   The entire road will eventually be reconfigured.  Soon...  

https://ici.radio-canada.ca/info/videos/media-8034316/renover-tunnel-mort#:~:text=Surnommé le « Tunnel de la,'empruntent%2C selon des citoyens.

 

I have used this road countless of times with my parents and when I got my license and drove for myself.   I never had an issue. But it is dangerous.  

[Drew Dowdell]

Regarding Tesla's blandness. They are trying to get away from some of the traditional elements and decorations we have on cars, but somehow they still fall short.

There is some excellent grille-less design out there.

Styling 25 years ahead of its time. Imagine if this came out with an electric powertrain in 2023! Oldsmobile would have been lauded as a trendsetter.

Ditto

You want a sports coupe? We've got your sports coupes.

 

If someone buys a car based on looks, I don't think there will be a lot of demand for abandoning the hood-cabin or hood-cabin-boot design. You'll get a few people buying an appliance that the i3-Bolt-Leaf shaped vehicles will be fine for, but the rest of us (who aren't buying crossovers) want the traditional 2 or 3-box design.  If you build it that way, you tend to want a "face" on the car, even if an open grille isn't necessary.

Four cars with grille-less design and they have more styling personality than every production Tesla made... combined.

 

[ccap41]

4 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Regarding Tesla's blandness. They are trying to get away from some of the traditional elements and decorations we have on cars, but somehow they still fall short.

There is some excellent grille-less design out there.

Styling 25 years ahead of its time. Imagine if this came out with an electric powertrain in 2023! Oldsmobile would have been lauded as a trendsetter.

Ditto

You want a sports coupe? We've got your sports coupes.

 

If someone buys a car based on looks, I don't think there will be a lot of demand for abandoning the hood-cabin or hood-cabin-boot design. You'll get a few people buying an appliance that the i3-Bolt-Leaf shaped vehicles will be fine for, but the rest of us (who aren't buying crossovers) want the traditional 2 or 3-box design.  If you build it that way, you tend to want a "face" on the car, even if an open grille isn't necessary.

Four cars with grille-less design and they have more styling personality than every production Tesla made... combined.

 

Two of those four have pretty large grill openings. They just aren't in the traditional "above bumper" location. The Olds are great examples. 

Personally, I think the styling of the 3 and S to be quite attractive (I do NOT like the Y & X). They're simple, clean and have RWD proportions. Yes, I believe they could do a little more up front to stand out but, I applaud them for not going the fake vent/grille route just to make "style". 

FWIW, the Beretta Z26 (my first car) also had a traditional grill=less design. There was obviously still a large opening for the radiator but it was below the bumper instead of above.

[oldshurst442]

Talk about Oldsmobile and their ahead of time designs.  Profile concept from the year 2000. 

 

4 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Two of those four have pretty large grill openings. They just aren't in the traditional "above bumper" location. The Olds are great examples. 

Personally, I think the styling of the 3 and S to be quite attractive (I do NOT like the Y & X). They're simple, clean and have RWD proportions. Yes, I believe they could do a little more up front to stand out but, I applaud them for not going the fake vent/grille route just to make "style". 

FWIW, the Beretta Z26 (my first car) also had a traditional grill=less design. There was obviously still a large opening for the radiator but it was below the bumper instead of above.

GM did that plastic grill thing during those times.  Being the late '80s early 1990s. 

 

[Drew Dowdell]

2 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Two of those four have pretty large grill openings. They just aren't in the traditional "above bumper" location.

Sure, but so do the Teslas

The Teslas are just marginally smaller.

I'm not saying that we should build to the same exact specifications a 1998 Integra.... just that grille-less design can be much more attractive than what Tesla is doing.  The only one I like styling-wise is the S, and that would be only if I couldn't pick from any other brand.

 

[Drew Dowdell]

5 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

GM did that plastic grill thing during those times.  Being the late '80s early 1990s. 

 

 

The slight difference on this one, that was not so much a grille insert, that was a styling homage to the Toronado of the day and years prior.  It's a dropped header panel and wide, thin grille opening that traces roots to the Toronado from 73 - 92, which itself harkens back to the Cord.  That Calais was envisioned to be a semi-luxury compact to compete with the import onslaught from Acura, Lexus, and Infiniti.  It was Roger Smith's wisdom of "make sure there's a cheap version so we sell a lot of them" that ruined the prestige.

 

[G. David Felt]

36 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Regarding Tesla's blandness. They are trying to get away from some of the traditional elements and decorations we have on cars, but somehow they still fall short.

There is some excellent grille-less design out there.

Styling 25 years ahead of its time. Imagine if this came out with an electric powertrain in 2023! Oldsmobile would have been lauded as a trendsetter.

Ditto

You want a sports coupe? We've got your sports coupes.

 

If someone buys a car based on looks, I don't think there will be a lot of demand for abandoning the hood-cabin or hood-cabin-boot design. You'll get a few people buying an appliance that the i3-Bolt-Leaf shaped vehicles will be fine for, but the rest of us (who aren't buying crossovers) want the traditional 2 or 3-box design.  If you build it that way, you tend to want a "face" on the car, even if an open grille isn't necessary.

Four cars with grille-less design and they have more styling personality than every production Tesla made... combined.

 

All awesome candidates for conversion to EV powertrain if the person loves the car enough.

[Drew Dowdell]

3 minutes ago, David said:

All awesome candidates for conversion to EV powertrain if the person loves the car enough.

If I hit the Powerball, I'm totally doing an Aurora EV conversion in black like the one above.

[Robert Hall]

2 hours ago, David said:

@Drew Dowdell @surreal1272 @oldshurst442 @Robert Hall @ccap41 @riviera74 I am sure there are many and I wish like slack they had an @channel ability as this video is just too funny. Does not matter if your drive a car, suv, truck, ev or ICE. This is the Union St. Exit to down town Seattle at the Convention center and the off-ramp is a 50 plus year old off-ramp that is way too short and clearly so many people do not pay attention to the signs that go from 60mph to 20 mph in about 500 feet. As such, I just discovered that one of the folks working in the building at the off-ramp has built a compilation video of all the crashes. Enjoy Seattle Stupidity at it's best.

 

Found a tweet of the off ramp and someone actually driving it. Seems it is 60 to 30 in a few hundred feet at best and then like 50 feet to 20mph and around the corner. Crazy.

 

The second video definitely makes the first video make more sense...watching the first video w/o the second it looks like the vehicles are pulled into the wall above.  

Reminds me a bit of 'Deadman's Curve' here on I-90 in downtown Cleveland..3-4 lanes going downhill into a tunnel, then a nearly 90 degree right turn after the tunnel, then the freeway merges into another freeway parallel to the lake...

I've been in the middle lane slowing to 35 while cars pass me in the left (outer lane) standing on their brakes at 70...   I imagine it can get quite dicey in winter when it gets icy..

2 hours ago, David said:

Exciting to see the spy photos of the EV above the LYRIQ out in winter weather testing.

Electric Cadillac Crossover Above Lyriq Spied Testing (gmauthority.com)

I do like the more traditional upright back on this suv.

Makes sense for practicality, though...sort of an XT6 EV equivalent? 

[oldshurst442]

10 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

If I hit the Powerball, I'm totally doing an Aurora EV conversion in black like the one above.

Me too brotha!  Me too!!! 

[Robert Hall]

That first gen Aurora was a beautiful car...GM a bunch of designs in the 90s I liked a lot...the Aurora, last gen Riviera, the '92 and '98 STS generations, the final Eldorado, a couple generations of Park Avenue.  I like the final boats also like the Roadmaster, Caddy Brougham, Caprice and Impala SS...huge cars, but they looked slick.

[ccap41]

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Sure, but so do the Teslas

The Teslas are just marginally smaller.

I'm not saying that we should build to the same exact specifications a 1998 Integra.... just that grille-less design can be much more attractive than what Tesla is doing.  The only one I like styling-wise is the S, and that would be only if I couldn't pick from any other brand.

 

Damn, I guess the subtlety of the Tesla's had me completely overlook it. 

[surreal1272]

3 hours ago, David said:

clearly so many people do not pay attention to the signs that go from 60mph to 20 mph in about 500 feet.

That is a HORRIBLE design flaw. Reminds me of some the short exits on I-17 in Phoenix but that is a whole other level of dumb if the speed drops that quick because of the shortness of the exit. I will say, though, that most folks just need to actually pay attention to the damn road and that might not be such a bad spot. Just craziness.

Edited February 23, 2023 by surreal1272

[G. David Felt]

4 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

If I hit the Powerball, I'm totally doing an Aurora EV conversion in black like the one above.

I would do my mid 80's Monte Carlo SS Aero or standard with T-Tops. Course this is cool too.

Experimental EV: 1967 Buick Riviera Electric Vehicle | Barn Finds

[Drew Dowdell]

3 hours ago, ccap41 said:

Damn, I guess the subtlety of the Tesla's had me completely overlook it. 

Most vehicles don't need the cooling capacity provided by gaping mouths we see on vehicles today. Trucks and SUVs that can tow, sure. But If you notice all the SUVs/CUVs with sub-5,000 lbs tow ratings with these massive grilles, most of the grille is false. (Explorer, Traverse, Acadia, etc.). 

Aurora got all the cooling needed for a DOHC V8 just from the scoop at the bottom of the car.  There's no way a tiny 1.5T in a GMC Terrain needs this much grille real estate to keep cool.

[regfootball]

Interesting tidbit I found; which I suspected is true; being a northern snow state dweller. And it reminded me of the time I test drove the 2019 Malibu with CVT as a possible successor to my 2016 Malibu, before I ultimately got my Regal TourX. The salesman at that time said, people are interested in the Malibu until they find out they can’t get all wheel drive on it. Then they go straight to looking at an Equinox. 
 

https://www.autoblog.com/2019/03/14/2019-nissan-altima-awd-second-drive-review-gaining-traction/

 

“All-wheel drive is available only with the base 2.5-liter engine. While one could argue that the uplevel engine, a variable-compression 2.0-liter turbo, could really use four driven wheels to put its hearty 280 lb-ft of torque to the pavement, the standard engine is the choice of the vast majority of Altima buyers. Nissan product planners saw AWD as a mass-market feature — particularly in cold-weather states — rather than a niche item to enhance the performance of the most expensive models. That's a democratic notion and also appears to be shrewd business. ———-According to Bruce Pillard, head of marketing for the Altima, in the most recent month's sales figures nearly one in four Altima buyers chose all-wheel drive, and the take rate runs closer to 50 percent in northern states. (In Canada, the feature is standard.) “———

 

seems to be this is how you keep interest in the midsize sedans  ah but you can’t mark them up as much I guess 

 

 

Edited February 26, 2023 by regfootball

[Drew Dowdell]

8 hours ago, regfootball said:

Interesting tidbit I found; which I suspected is true; being a northern snow state dweller. And it reminded me of the time I test drove the 2019 Malibu with CVT as a possible successor to my 2016 Malibu, before I ultimately got my Regal TourX. The salesman at that time said, people are interested in the Malibu until they find out they can’t get all wheel drive on it. Then they go straight to looking at an Equinox. 
 

https://www.autoblog.com/2019/03/14/2019-nissan-altima-awd-second-drive-review-gaining-traction/

 

“All-wheel drive is available only with the base 2.5-liter engine. While one could argue that the uplevel engine, a variable-compression 2.0-liter turbo, could really use four driven wheels to put its hearty 280 lb-ft of torque to the pavement, the standard engine is the choice of the vast majority of Altima buyers. Nissan product planners saw AWD as a mass-market feature — particularly in cold-weather states — rather than a niche item to enhance the performance of the most expensive models. That's a democratic notion and also appears to be shrewd business. ———-According to Bruce Pillard, head of marketing for the Altima, in the most recent month's sales figures nearly one in four Altima buyers chose all-wheel drive, and the take rate runs closer to 50 percent in northern states. (In Canada, the feature is standard.) “———

 

seems to be this is how you keep interest in the midsize sedans  ah but you can’t mark them up as much I guess 

 

 

And it’s stupid that manufacturers, not just Nissan, do stuff like this.

Lincoln dropped AWD in the Nautilus for the final 2 years of production. 

Chrysler/Dodge dropped AWD in V8 Models of the LX cars after 2015.

GM dropped AWD in the diesel Equinox/Terrain for its final years.

 

Doing that doesn’t increase sales.

[oldshurst442]

Domaine des Hauts Bois Angouleme

Camp-Leb  Mel    1981/17-11-22  

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 27, 2023 by oldshurst442

[G. David Felt]

FYI - You might not see me post much in the coming weeks as on Friday night I twisted my knee being in a hurry and popped my ACL. Braced up and on crutches and pain meds. Have to see an orthopedic doctor this week.

[ccap41]

49 minutes ago, David said:

FYI - You might not see me post much in the coming weeks as on Friday night I twisted my knee being in a hurry and popped my ACL. Braced up and on crutches and pain meds. Have to see an orthopedic doctor this week.

Ahhhh bummer, bud! Hopefully nothing actually tore and "just" physical therapy can get you moving again. Fingers crossed for a speedy recovery. 

I'd think you'd have MORE time sitting in front of a computer/phone now, haha. 

[G. David Felt]

43 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Ahhhh bummer, bud! Hopefully nothing actually tore and "just" physical therapy can get you moving again. Fingers crossed for a speedy recovery. 

I'd think you'd have MORE time sitting in front of a computer/phone now, haha. 

True, I am finally downstairs working, so I am able to keep an eye on the site. WOW, I have a high pain tolerance, but this is a new kind of pain that I have not experienced. Roll my left leg to the left and all is fine. Roll it to my right and wow, stars. On top of this, just got a call from my doctor about discomfort I have had in my right hip and waking up at night with my right calf cramping and he had me get x-rays on Friday. Results show degenerative disc in L1 to L7 and L5 pinching on my sciatic nerve. Go figure, nothing I ever do is easy or in small quantities. LOL

[G. David Felt]

Two interesting stories for today:

https://cleantechnica.com/2023/02/26/us-auto-industry-down-3-million-sales-19-since-2019/

QUOTE:

“Fun fact. The overall auto industry has on average declined 1.18% y/y since 2015. In this span, BEVs have grown on average 57.67% y/y while ICE sales declined 2.51% y/y. Total ICE production in 2022 was just 74 million … a level last seen in 2007! With BEVs really capturing the market now it seems clear we are well past ‘peak ICE’ which happened in 2017 at 96.5 million cars.”

Compared to 2021, things change up a bit. Tesla still saw strong growth — just not as much of course (37%). Cadillac was up decently (14%). And a few other brands were up moderately — GMC was up 7%, Chevrolet was up 6%, and Mercedes was up 6%. Chevrolet (80,000+) and GMC (35,000+) were up the most in volume terms aside from Tesla (~139,000).

Looking at the suffering brands, Honda lost the most volume-wise year over year (down a whopping 428,021), followed by Nissan (-236,355), Toyota (-178,032), Ram (-102,137), and Jeep (-94,097). In terms of a percentage drop, Fiat is still on the bottom of the pile. (Is Fiat going to survive in the USA?) Buick (-42%), Acura (-35%), Honda (-33%), and Alfa Romeo (-30%) also saw a significant drop in sales year over year.

OUCH on the sales front.

The car folks like @ccap41 @oldshurst442 @surreal1272 @Robert Hall @Drew Dowdell @riviera74 should enjoy this story.

[VIDEO] 2025 Corvette Zora: Would You Buy One? - Corvette: Sales, News & Lifestyle (corvetteblogger.com)

 

[oldshurst442]

@David

Not fun screwing up your knee.   Hope you have a speedy recovery.  Hopefully no surgery will be involved but either way, I see lots of physiotherapy in your near future.  I had reconstructive knee surgery myself  a little more than a decade ago  (years of hockey and skiing abuse) only to tell you that I feel your pain literally and figuratively speaking.  

I think that @surreal1272 went through the same as well.   

We could be called the 3 Amigos I guess.

  

 

You could be Chevy Chase because you are the tallest one and I could be Martin Short as I am the shortest one. And @surreal1272 could be Steve Martin because well...he would be the remaining 3rd Amigo.  

 

Regarding the upcoming Zora.  No...I wouldnt be buying one even if I had the money. 

1. Not my type of car.  

2. My expectations of life has changed DRASTICALLY the last 24 hours.   I would have never bought 100 000 dollar cars in the first place before certain knowledge of certain events that I learned about the last 24 hours, but even moreso now.  

Although I sooooooo want Chevrolet to release a Corvette like that sometime soon! 

I have seen myself think in the negative the last month or two. Part of that I think is simple old age cynicism as I get closer to 50.  Philosophical realities that older, wiser (hopefully) people experience as they age and see how crappy human nature can be as the naive younger self grows older. 

On top of that,   I also have seen myself wanting to re-live some of my youthful frustrations that I have endured.  I am not in a dark place. Im fine even though these last words typed seem like such a downer.  Life for me and my family is just GREAT!  We are all doing great. Health and love to which I wish everyone here the same as I and my family are!   

 

 

Edited February 27, 2023 by oldshurst442