Random Thoughts Thread

[trinacriabob]

On 3/27/2022 at 2:37 PM, balthazar said:

I don’t drink coffee, but maybe that one would suit me… ?

Wow, I enshrine you on C&G all the way from Lisbon, Portugal and no thumbs up?!?  LOL.

[G. David Felt]

2 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Will any of them be for transverse applications?

GM has stated that they will have e-crate solutions to support converting all ICE autos be it FWD, RWD and AWD to electric.

Currently GM has setup an ASE electrification conversion program for auto repair shops to get certified and do conversions with GM e-Crate Solutions and warranty. GMs Electric Vehicle Future | Performance (chevrolet.com)

I had signed up requesting information but was weeded out as I am not a current functional auto shop. As such, finding out what all is entailed in getting the certifications, access to wholesale pricing on e-Crate connect and drive solutions for GM auto conversions.

I honestly would love to have the Hummer Tri-Motor setup on my 1994 Suburban.  

[trinacriabob]

23 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

I dont drink coffee either.

People, like all the time, are really really surprised that I dont drink coffee.  Then some of them go on a rant telling me how weird and rare it is for a restaurant owner not to drink coffee.  I dont know what to tell these people...

Id give it a try, this Balthazar coffee.  But it probably be coffee flavoured milk syrup more than coffee tho.  

I would prefer JUST to visit Lisbon and drop by this coffee place.  Have their pastries instead.   Although I dont drink alcohol anymore, Id rather try Portugal's famous port wines.   That would be more my thing if I ever visit Portugal.  Then drive myself to Spain, see Gibraltar, Valencia, Barcelona.   Then off to France.  Marseille.   And if there is any time and money left, onward to Italy.   The Mediterranean is where my soul belongs.    But I would ALWAYS come home.  North America is home!   

The port wine is fine.  It is sometimes given as a token of appreciation at the end of a meal.  They make some nice pastries over there, as you say.  Also consider what a beautiful coastline and interior this country has.  

I'm with you on where your soul is.  I can relate.

[oldshurst442]

9 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Yeah, the independent rear suspension on the Aurora (and Riviera, Eldorado, and Seville) is a pretty compact setup, but it had to be. The Aurora has a tiny trunk relative to its overall size as it was a 4-door outgrowth of the Toronado which was a "personal" luxury car. The Toronados from '79 - '92 have relatively tiny trunks too.   I'm sure you could put a second motor back there, but you'd lose what trunk space you did have. 

You might be able to put the motor in the spare tire well, but then you'd need some sort of transmission/gearing to move the output and half-shafts forward to the axle line and with a motor hanging behind the rear wheels it would cause some .... interesting... driving dynamics. 

Looks like I have to choose another classic Oldsmobile to electrify.   Either hypothetically or who knows, for real!   Maybe what @David answered, maybe a GM Ultium E Crate package could be made to convert an Aurora.  

The thing that I find interesting is that the Aurora's styling still looks like it could be from today.  Maybe the belt line is lower than today's cars, it certainly has today's aero styling and EV grill-less face.   

[G. David Felt]

12 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Looks like I have to choose another classic Oldsmobile to electrify.   Either hypothetically or who knows, for real!   Maybe what @David answered, maybe a GM Ultium E Crate package could be made to convert an Aurora.  

The thing that I find interesting is that the Aurora's styling still looks like it could be from today.  Maybe the belt line is lower than today's cars, it certainly has today's aero styling and EV grill-less face.   

I see no reason you could not electrify an Aurora. Even if GM does not come out with an e-crate that fits, there are other options as you mentioned, Tesla which lately has been going into allot of FWD auto's making them AWD per EV West web site. So I have to think that yes, you could have the Aurora electrified to meet your needs.

[balthazar]

KBB says a '99 Aurora's 'fair price' is $2800.

Maybe it's just me, but it seems crazy to dump $50,000 into a car worth $3,000.

Why not just buy a $54,000 Model 3 and start driving tomorrow? Full warranty, latest amenities, no cobbled together Frankenstein car (OK, maybe strike that last one)....

 

[oldshurst442]

31 minutes ago, balthazar said:

KBB says a '99 Aurora's 'fair price' is $2800.

Maybe it's just me, but it seems crazy to dump $50,000 into a car worth $3,000.

Why not just buy a $54,000 Model 3 and start driving tomorrow? Full warranty, latest amenities, no cobbled together Frankenstein car (OK, maybe strike that last one)....

 

 

Because we love cars?

Finding and restoring barn finds will also cost the restorer about that much as well.  

Why go through the trouble to fix barn find Camaros/Mustangs/Challengers when their modern V8 counterparts cost just as much as restoring the classic ones?    

As far as the Olds Aurora/Tesla Model 3 electric thing goes?

This?

Or this?

 

Id rather the Aurora.  

And Im recycling...

 

 

[G. David Felt]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

KBB says a '99 Aurora's 'fair price' is $2800.

Maybe it's just me, but it seems crazy to dump $50,000 into a car worth $3,000.

Why not just buy a $54,000 Model 3 and start driving tomorrow? Full warranty, latest amenities, no cobbled together Frankenstein car (OK, maybe strike that last one)....

 

We have yet to see what the actual price is on the GM e-crate solutions and battery packs.

Ford has for sale their Mach-e motor, ELUMINATOR MACH E ELECTRIC MOTOR| Part Details for M-9000-MACHE | Ford Performance Parts

$4,095 each, do AWD is just $8,190.00

Ford Performance Parts is proud to offer the Eluminator!!! This electric motor is from the 2021 Mustang Mach E GT.   

• Peak power: 210kW (281hp)
• Peak torque: 430Nm (317 lb.-ft.)
• Max speed: 13,800rpm
• Gear ratio: 9.05:1
• Weight:  93kg / 205 lbs

Includes: 

• HV motor to traction inverter harness
• LV harness/connector
• Vent tube assembly.

Does NOT include:

• Traction inverter
• Control system
• Battery 

 

Part Type

Engine: Complete Engines

Warranty Availability

Not Available

Packaged Dimensions

22" x 22" x 32

Packaged Weight

220 lb(s)

Yes there are still other components, but no different than an ICE build in restoring an old auto.

 

[balthazar]

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

Why go through the trouble to fix barn find Camaros/Mustangs/Challengers

Simple; a '69 Z/28 in #4 'fair' condition is already worth around $45,000.

[balthazar]

41 minutes ago, David said:

Ford has for sale their Mach-e motor

So $4 grand for just the motor, add in the parts and battery cost that are not included, then the labor to remove the original powertrain, then the labor to fabricate mounting pieces/hardware, and install the whole new powertrain, plus upgrade/change out the existing subsystems (A/C compressor drive is one example). 

A Ford IC crate motor bolts right into a factory Ford car (for the most part).
A Tesla BE motor is a complete powertrain swap in a Ford car.

Why do you guys think EVWest charges $50 grand to source the components / do the labor?

[oldshurst442]

1 minute ago, balthazar said:

Simple; a '69 Z/28 in #4 'fair' condition is already worth around $45,000.

As soon as that #4 '69 Camaro Z/28 is daily driven, it will experience the same depreciation as a 2022 Camaro and it will lose half its value after the first year.  

Garage Queen it and this conversation becomes useless...

Drive it the winter in Michigan or in Quebec and that 1960s iron will rust within 5-6 years making it worthless. 1960s rust proofing tech was well...it wasnt. 

But...a 2022 Camaro, could actually BE driven in Michigan and in Quebec and it will rust at a much slower pace and to equal the rust damage of that #4 Camaro  will be double at 10 years.  

 #4 Camaro with 1960s tech, will not be fun to daily drive as we have been accustomed to 60 years of automotive refinement. 

Bring that 1960s Camaro to the modern world, and that #4 Camaro worth 45 000 dollars will cost you 80 thousand dollars.  It may or may NOT fetch 80 000 dollars at an auction.  Daily drive that restomodded Camaro and it WILL lose half its value after the 1st year and no way will you recoup your investment.

Again...Garage Queen the restomod Camaro to preserve its value and this conversation is useless...  as cars are MEANT to be driven. 

[G. David Felt]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

So $4 grand for just the motor, add in the parts and battery cost that are not included, then the labor to remove the original powertrain, then the labor to fabricate mounting pieces/hardware, and install the whole new powertrain, plus upgrade/change out the existing subsystems (A/C compressor drive is one example). 

A Ford IC crate motor bolts right into a factory Ford car (for the most part).
A Tesla BE motor is a complete powertrain swap in a Ford car.

Why do you guys think EVWest charges $50 grand to source the components / do the labor?

This is no difference than current ICE solutions. Right off the GM Performance web site, connect and cruise that does include pretty much everything except labor and the random parts to finish put this in the same price range today. Unless you do it all yourself, which MOST PEOPLE CANNOT DO, the cost is on par between ICE and EV systems and the future is looking bright for cheaper EV systems as battery cost, the biggest cost become cheaper. Solid-State Battery packs will really change the game as they become mainstream replacing existing Lithium-Ion.

[Drew Dowdell]

12 hours ago, balthazar said:

KBB says a '99 Aurora's 'fair price' is $2800.

Maybe it's just me, but it seems crazy to dump $50,000 into a car worth $3,000.

Why not just buy a $54,000 Model 3 and start driving tomorrow? Full warranty, latest amenities, no cobbled together Frankenstein car (OK, maybe strike that last one)....

 

Because Teslas are ugly. Auroras are not.

What would KBB say about the value of your Pontiac in its current condition? Why would you dump money into it?

[balthazar]

9 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

As soon as that #4 '69 Camaro Z/28 is daily driven, it will experience the same depreciation as a 2022 Camaro and it will lose half its value after the first year.  

#4 condition IS 'daily driven' condition. That's why I didn't use the 'garage queen' #1 concours-restored value here.

Are you restoring the Aurora to garage queen condition in your scenario? Full strip & repaint? All NOS parts & new interior?

Edited March 29, 2022 by balthazar

[balthazar]

37 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

What would KBB say about the value of your Pontiac in its current condition? Why would you dump money into it?

Hagerty a year ago says my GP in #4 condition was worth $10,600. With the physical condition, miles, & options, that's probably in the neighborhood.
Once the engine is rebuilt and the mechanics (brakes/ fuel/ tires) are redone, it'll edge upward from there. Complete, restored Tri-Powers are selling around $2500-2800 by themselves (the value of an entire running '99 Aurora). 

Even if it were running as is and only worth $10,000, I probably only have $2K invested in it. 

As for dumping money into it; as my first car I seem to be in some sort of love with it, but I would never put (a proportional) $166,000 into a $10,000 car- that's madness. [$50,000 into $3000 car].

Edited March 29, 2022 by balthazar

[balthazar]

8 hours ago, David said:

This is no difference than current ICE solutions. Right off the GM Performance web site, connect and cruise that does include pretty much everything except labor and the random parts to finish put this in the same price range today.

It's not remotely the same price range to buy & install a crate SBC into a -say- '70 Nova. It's literally just bolts in. That's not $10s of thousands of dollars, and any mechanical shop could handle it fine. It's totally different.

You can pick up a brand new crate 440HP 350 from Summit Racing for $6100, and you & a buddy can bolt it said Nova in a weekend and be driving Monday. 

  

Edited March 29, 2022 by balthazar

[Drew Dowdell]

3 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Hagerty a year ago says my GP in #4 condition was worth $10,600. With the physical condition, miles, & options, that's probably in the neighborhood.
Once the engine is rebuilt and the mechanics (brakes/ fuel/ tires) are redone, it'll edge upward from there. Complete, restored Tri-Powers are selling around $2500-2800 by themselves (the value of an entire running '99 Aurora). 

Unless I missed a post, your GP is not in #4 condition.... isn't the motor apart and some of it in pieces?  #4 is that you can pull it out and take it for a spin right now.

And once you get past a certain year/mileage, KBB stops being useful for valuations. Looking at multiple completed sales of Auroras online via eBay, it looks like that vintage Aurora with like 65k miles on it is more in the $7k range while KBB puts the trade in value at $2500 and private party at $3,300. A '92 Toronado with 65,000 miles in "Very good" condition KBB says is worth $850. I see them go on the FB Toronado pages all the time for $4k - $7k. If I could buy them for $850, I'd have a fleet of them and flip them for a quick $3k.  They won't even value my '81, but I bet KBB would tell me to sell it for scrap. A nice '85 with low miles just sold on eBay for $17,5k.

KBB is just not a good tool for something of even marginal collector status. They're only concerned with the recent model general consumer market.

[balthazar]

The GP motor is out / getting rebuilt, so yes; it'd be a #5 at the moment. 
With a rebuilt Tri-Power motor and all mechanics gone thru, it would bring better than #4 based on how it's equipped and having a rebuilt, rather than an original running motor.

I would agree on KBB- they don't do vintage pricing (which is why I used Hagerty), but a '99 Aurora isn't a collectible auto. There; their valuation is probably at least in the ballpark.

Edited March 29, 2022 by balthazar

[balthazar]

Are the late model prices you see for the Olds' you mention asking, or sold prices?

The only true metric of valuation is a compilation of sold prices. 

- - - - - 
I don't know if you guys are up on what my Camaro example above actually sells for. Other than the hoss-kick in the front fender, the body on this car was rust-free, Had a usable, complete interior but it had no trans and only a bare block for a powertrain. The values allow for a substantial investment in restoring it (which doesn't cost X-times more over a 6-cylinder coupe). 

HOWEVER, I still question what taking a high-demand car like this and deviating far from original (BE powertrain) would do to said value. You buy a relatively great condition car like below for $55K, put another $50K into it for electrification..... would it only be worth $50K? $30K? It's NOT going to be worth $105K, I can promise you that. What could you insure it for, value-wise?

Does it make fiscal sense?

[ccap41]

On 3/4/2022 at 9:58 PM, David said:

Tesla Cyber Truck is still Vaporware too. I bet RAM beats them to Mules, aka alpha and beta testing as well as to market.

At least Tesla has had physical vehicles to walk around.  

Not saying Ram won't beat them, that's up in the air. I'm just saying that video was 100% CGI and they don't currently have anything to show of it. 

[Drew Dowdell]

5 hours ago, balthazar said:

Are the late model prices you see for the Olds' you mention asking, or sold prices?

The only true metric of valuation is a compilation of sold prices. 
 

Yes, I was looking at completed transactions on eBay.

[oldshurst442]

8 hours ago, balthazar said:

#4 condition IS 'daily driven' condition. That's why I didn't use the 'garage queen' #1 concours-restored value here.

Are you restoring the Aurora to garage queen condition in your scenario? Full strip & repaint? All NOS parts & new interior?

Well, Im certainly NOT buying an Aurora from the Quebec region (or any other rust belt region) to make this transformation, that is for sure!

And I may not be restoring the Aurora to garage queen status because that may cost an astronomical amount of money to do.  If a drive -able Aurora exists in 2022/2023/2024, than Id fix, repair and restore it to levels were it would be SAFE to daily drive. And yeah, that will take a good amount of coin to do so but it wouldnt be astronomical either. It be to levels of where it cost to do as much as buying a Tesla Model 3 or Ford Mach E with all the bells and whistles.  60 to 70 grand.  Rough guestimate from not actual experience of restoring cars, but  from watching TV shows and dreaming of restoring and guestimating it with actual, pseudo-factual research...

With the same pseudo-factual research, I could confidently say that the amount I stated for the Aurora would not be far from what it would cost to restore a classic car to reach safe daily driven status.  It may even cost MORE.

With the example you gave, that Camaro's winning bid was 54 000. 

No transmission and no desirable engine.  It was only a bare block engine.  If you arent going the wrecked Sliverado/Camaro/Corvette/Escalade/Tahoe etc scrap car route for an engine and go directly to GM's brand new crate engines, a LT1 V8 still costs 8 000 dollars.  Plus all the bolt ons that need to be bolted on to function...   Radiators and hoses and alternators etc...

And although a 1969 Camaro is OBVIOUSLY more desirable than a FWD, 1990s jellybean defunct branded, old geazer personal coupe from a shytty American automotive manufacturer giant that fabricates cheap cars that fall apart (GM's image of the 1990s as opposed to GM's image in 1969), like I stated earlier, the 1969 Camaro when daily driven WILL lose half its value the first year.  

Maybe a #1 level restomodded Camaro will be worth about 100 000 to somebody. To get the Camaro to that level, its easy to spend THAT much coin to match its worth.   As soon as we daily drive it, that daily driven Camaro falls QUICKLY to 54 000 dollars as we see in your post...

REGARDLESS of motive power....   

Difference is, the Aurora will NEVER be worth 54 000 dollars, I agree. 

Point is:

1.  Money lost is STILL money lost.

2. When restoring a car no matter what the motivation is, a car restorer should NEVER look at what the car WILL be worth after the project is finished IF the restorer wants to use that car.  THAT restored car will ALWAYS BE a money pit and money loser.  Money lost is STILL money lost.

3. Insurance is the ONLY disadvantage I see in spending money on an Aurora EV-ing it vis-a-vis restoring a classic car. 

Get into a car accident daily driving  an Aurora, and the insurance pay-out will not be worth the time and money spent doing so as opposed to the classic car.  But then again, daily driving a restored classic car will not fetch you #1 level rating.  The insurance category for garage queens and daily driven classic are NOT the same...    I dont know how much a daily driven car will be worth to the insurance company.    

4. Me personally, if I ever do such a thing, I would make sure I have 60 thousand dollars to burn, but Id be using that Aurora daily, driving it to the ground. Im driving it for 10 years making sure after 10 years it WILL be worth next to nothing but I will be getting ALL my money's worth from doing this conversion no different than buying a new Mach E and driving IT 10 years, driving IT to the ground and getting my money's worth for THAT EV... 

Edited March 29, 2022 by oldshurst442

[G. David Felt]

Wonder how many V8 Hellcats Pacifica vans they will sell? To be shown at SEMA 2022 this fall.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CQBr_Q0HCMp/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

[balthazar]

3 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

like I stated earlier, the 1969 Camaro when daily driven WILL lose half its value the first year.

Categorically false.
To wit; the Camaro I posted above- it's 'worth' $54K with no powertrain. Make it drivable, and in a year it's not somehow going to be worth $25K. In-demand collectible valuations don't work that way.

- - - - -
 

[surreal1272]

25 minutes ago, balthazar said:

In-demand collectible valuations don't work that way.

In demand collectibles don’t get driven on the daily like “normal” cars which was his core point. Sure, maybe it doesn’t lose half its value but if you drive that classic car 12-15K a year, it will work that way sooner than you think. Collectible cars, overall, only increase in value because they become garage queens, which was another core point of his. Cherry picking a made up number doesn’t change either of those points. 

[balthazar]

33 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Collectible cars, overall, only increase in value because they become garage queens, which was another core point of his.

That is ONE way a singular collectible can increase in value. 
Another is TIME. An engineless '69 Camaro wasn't worth 50 grand in -say- 1985.
The contention of "only" here is incorrect.

Think about it this way : if the half-life of a -say- vintage Camaro was 1 year, how could it ever have reached such (relative) high values today? Look at this POS; no motor, interior destroyed, rot & bondo. 43 bids, $16 grand... Doesn't make sense to me, but here it is : 

Edited March 30, 2022 by balthazar

[oldshurst442]

28 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Categorically false.
To wit; the Camaro I posted above- it's 'worth' $54K with no powertrain. Make it drivable, and in a year it's not somehow going to be worth $25K. In-demand collectible valuations don't work that way.

 

 

Dont be coy...

Buy that Camaro @ 54 000 dollars.  Good.

But it aint going anywhere as its got no powertrain...

Personally, I would NEVER buy THAT Camaro @ 54 000 U.S. BECAUSE its got no powertrain...but a fool and his money are soon parted and I aint no fool, but I digress.  A car is worth as much as the next guy wants to buy it...    OK...

Buy that Camaro @ 54 000 but its a heavy and huge paperweight. It aint good for anything other than telling your stupid foolish a$$ that you got a huge and heavy paperweight in the shape and form of a 1969 Camaro...

If you want to actually drive the thing, you gots to put a working engine in it.

Its got a block. That is it.  A block with no pistons and no rods and no pushrods and no springs and no tappets and no fuel hoses etc will be a time consuming endeavor to buy and acquire individually.  Presumably its a classic big or small block from the era. Like who makes those individual things anymore?  I dont think Year One and other sources similar make them.  And Im also assuming it will be an expensive endeavor as well. 

 Buying a turn key GM crate engine outright, a connect and cruise type deal, will set you back 10 000 dollars. For the LT1.  Want  more muscle and power like an LT4?  Pony up more money to the tune of 17 000.  The Camaro does have a transmission,  but now we are playing with modern stuff, so a modern transmission is a must. Add 5 000. Although some money could be recuperated by selling old transmission on E-Bay.

But 54 000 plus 15 000 equals 69 000.

That Camaro doesnt look like the brakes will be sufficient enough for the modern powertrain. Nor the suspension and the steering. Besides, it WILL be a daily driver so it will be advantageous for it to have  modern brakes and suspensions, not only for safety, but for comfort as 50 years of automotive evolution has made us never wanting to go back to the "good 'ole days."   To deny that would be disingenuous no matter how much of a classic car nut you are.     

Kaching Kaching is the sound of the cash register.  Oh no...not because you are going to rake in the money selling it, but that is the sound of Year One's cash register that YOU will be giving your money to on upgrading the Camaro...

That  54 000 dollar Camaro that you bought is now dangerously close in being a 100 000 dollar Camaro. Oh no!!!...NOT what its worth.  Its what is costing you...

It might actually be worth 100 000 to somebody after you are finished restoring/modding/prepping it. 

Problem is, YOU want to daily drive it. And you could daily it this way by restomodding it.  It will be safe, and it will be comfy. THAT is the idea, non?  

But once you put 25 thousand miles on it, hard miles, the first year, because THIS is what we are talking about, right?  When talking about daily-ing an EV convert Aurora, apples to apples...the value goes down by half, just like any other car.  

You know, parking lot dings,  Big Mac sauce and coffee spills, mud, sand, dust, rock chips on the hood. Maybe a windshield ding...    Its a daily driver after all...  

After year two, more chances of having minor fender benders. 

If driven in the rust belt, and the car was not rust proofed like a modern one, expect it to have holes after year 6.   Always keeping in context that we are not babying that Camaro.  Its a daily driver... 

[oldshurst442]

28 minutes ago, balthazar said:

That is ONE way a singular collectible can increase in value. 
Another is TIME. An engineless '69 Camaro wasn't worth 50 grand in -say- 1985.
The contention of "only" here is incorrect.

Think about it this way : if the half-life of a -say- vintage Camaro was 1 year, how could it ever have reached such (relative) high values today? Look at this POS; no motor, interior destroyed, rot & bondo. 43 bids, $16 grand... Doesn't make sense to me, but here it is : 

 Fool and his money with that Camaro as well.

But like I did my post above.

Getting a Camaro to where its safe to daily drive in 2022...WILL make you spend more money than what the car will eventually be worth. EVEN if it reverts to being a 15 000 dollar POS like this one.  At least a Camaro has the potential to be  worth 15K after being daily driven hard and not 500 dollars at the scrap yard like an EV converted Aurora...   

But...THIS one will need lots and lots of body work.  Even if this project is for a garage queen easy flip, the amount of time and money spent on it might not fetch the money spent on it when the project is done.  The person restoring it will have to keep a magic number in his head to what he thinks the finished project will be worth. Then the restorer needs to figure out what type of project car it will end up being. A restomod. A clone car of a certain trim. Whatever. Then the restorer will have to make a list of what he needs to complete it with prices in his worksheet to make a budget so he does not exceed the forecasted value...

Edited March 30, 2022 by oldshurst442

[oldshurst442]

25 thousand average daily drive KILOMETERS. 

12-15 thousand miles.

When I wrote 25 thousand average miles, I had kilometers in mind.  I wanted to state 12-15 thousand miles.  25 thousand would be the average mileage in kilometers for North Americans...

[balthazar]

I wouldn't buy that Camaro either! I think some of the Chevy pricing is ridiculous, and there's a ton of them to chose from, from the '60s. 

Yes- there are plenty of sources for new SBC & BBC engines- it's not hard to find 'em. And new foundry-cast blocks, also.
There's 2 new cast Buick big blocks out there, replicants of a motor only built 70-76.
There's companies still manufacturing new Model T parts.
Cripes - the repro BODIES now available is crazy- whole body shells.... that relatively new in the collector car world. 

This era of collectible cars continues to grow, as does values.
Take it from a guy who'd been involved in it 35 years now- it's never been bigger.

- - - - -
I just saw something the other week; average miles driven in the U.S. is 14,400. Don't recall the source.
Personally, I'm well under that. Only on target to do about 8500 this year.

29 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Getting a Camaro to where its safe to daily drive in 2022...WILL make you spend more money than what the car will eventually be worth.

You simply can't say that with any degree of certainty.

[G. David Felt]

As far as average miles driven, many sources but seems to roll between 14,200 to 14,400 now.

Average Miles Driven Per Year: Why It Is Important - Kelley Blue Book (kbb.com)

How Much Is The Average Car Payment In America? + 21 Stats! (simplyinsurance.com)

Average miles driven per year by state - CarInsurance.com

Average Miles Driven per Year: The Info You Need to Know  » (way.com)

[Robert Hall]

It's been a long time since I came close to the average for miles driven... IIRC, I drove under 2000 miles in 2020, and only about 3500 miles last year..this year, though, I've done over 3000 miles so far..

The '69 Mustang and '87 Mustang GT once they are road-worthy again would be driven maybe 100-200 miles a year, I wouldn't attempt to drive an old car daily, more as occasional weekend toys.

It will be interesting to see how things go w/ old car values when I eventually try and sell some of my brother's vehicles. 

Edited March 30, 2022 by Robert Hall

[G. David Felt]

4 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

It's been a long time since I came close to the average for miles driven... IIRC, I drove under 2000 miles in 2020, and only about 3500 miles last year..this year, though, I've done over 3000 miles so far..

The '69 Mustang and '87 Mustang GT once they are road-worthy again would be driven maybe 100-200 miles a year, I wouldn't attempt to drive an old car daily, more as occasional weekend toys.

It will be interesting to see how things go w/ old car values when I eventually try and sell some of my brother's vehicles. 

At least you can get low mileage auto insurance. Did that when the Pandemic started and saved a ton. Then with my kids and me now permanent work from home people, moved all the autos on our insurance to low mileage as at most maybe 5 to 6 K miles a year. Most we drive is up the highway to the pass to ski.

[trinacriabob]

Random but recurring thought:

A decade ago, and prior to that, I found it hard to decide WHICH vehicle I might want to buy from among the choices available to me.

Currently, I find it hard to decide IF there is a vehicle I might want to buy from among the choices available to me.

[G. David Felt]

3 hours ago, trinacriabob said:

Random but recurring thought:

A decade ago, and prior to that, I found it hard to decide WHICH vehicle I might want to buy from among the choices available to me.

Currently, I find it hard to decide IF there is a vehicle, I might want to buy from among the choices available to me.

So true, currently there is NOTHING available for me to choose to buy yet. 

The local Ford Dealers have no Mach-E in stock to check out and test fit my size in.

Rivian Store in Bellevue Washington has no demo unit either.

Tesla is a NO GO, too small as I tried all 4 current models and too poor of quality for me to even consider.

Not buying any new ICE auto, so I have about 3 years to wait, I think.

[balthazar]

[trinacriabob]

What NOT to be on April Fools Day ... or any day:  either her or Fred!

Happy April Fools Day!

[G. David Felt]

24 minutes ago, trinacriabob said:

What NOT to be on April Fools Day ... or any day:  either her or Fred!

Happy April Fools Day!

Yes happy April Fools day to you and everyone here.

[Robert Hall]

35 w/ sleet and snow mix for April fools...yay...was 25 and windy Monday, then 70 and sunny on Wednesday.

NE Ohio Spring always up and down, unpredictable...reminds me of this neat list of Midwestern seasons that makes its way around the internets...

[trinacriabob]

4 minutes ago, David said:

That's torture!

[ccap41]

21 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

35 w/ sleet and snow mix for April fools...yay...was 25 and windy Monday, then 70 and sunny on Wednesday.

NE Ohio Spring always up and down, unpredictable...reminds me of this neat list of Midwestern seasons that makes its way around the internets...

We're currently passing Third Winter. I think yesterday was the last day of 30's and it should be 50's-60's going forward! 

[G. David Felt]

51 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

We're currently passing Third Winter. I think yesterday was the last day of 30's and it should be 50's-60's going forward! 

Don't mess with Mother Nature!  

[Robert Hall]

Sun's out now, into the 40s...I think after work I'm going to go get grass seed, top soil, and mulch and get started on Spring yard work...then off to mud farming this weekend..

[G. David Felt]

We are snowing in the Mountains YAH!!!

Rain off and on in the Lowlands, upper 40s today and this weekend. Have started to get the yard going also like @Robert Hall

Front Grass is thatched and cleaned up last week, fertilized it, put down moss killer also, right now a nice dark green.

Back yard is in total remodel mode, have my garden area, but re-doing the rest to level out the yard, will take some pics and post later.

[balthazar]

[balthazar]

[regfootball]

ah, GM, we need something like this back......

although how would this translate to a longer greenhouse and possibly a hatch, 

Edited April 3, 2022 by regfootball

[balthazar]

57 minutes ago, regfootball said:

we need something like this back......

Here it was; didja buy one?
 

[regfootball]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

Here it was; didja buy one?
 

I was sort of referring more to the rounded shape of the Aurora, and the clean styling.  GM needs to bring back a few elegant cars like that.

As for the CT6, I did look at a couple before.....a bit above my pay grade right now.  Maybe in a few years if there are any nice low mile CT6 with the 10 speed auto I might look at one again actually.

[balthazar]

I don't expect to see that sort of 'low-cowl' proportion to come back anytime soon. The now-mandatory high nose (pedestrian regulation) and uber-high deck (CAFE regulation) would make a 'worn soap' sedan look very bloated. Think mercedes EQS.

Edited April 3, 2022 by balthazar