Random Thoughts Thread

[balthazar]

Moltar- you mentioned Wikipedia in another thread ; anyone question the site's rule of only using published sources for information - like everything published is somehow peer-reviewed. I guess there's little other way of doing things; assumedly users will discount the grossly inaccurate sources, but this relies on a strange, amorphous 'community think' where anonymous strangers all have the 'better good' of the 'internet encyclopedia' at heart.

I mean, whats supposed to happen when all the published sources are widely inaccurate?

[G. David Felt]

2 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Moltar- you mentioned Wikipedia in another thread ; anyone question the site's rule of only using published sources for information - like everything published is somehow peer-reviewed. I guess there's little other way of doing things; assumedly users will discount the grossly inaccurate sources, but this relies on a strange, amorphous 'community think' where anonymous strangers all have the 'better good' of the 'internet encyclopedia' at heart.

I mean, whats supposed to happen when all the published sources are widely inaccurate?

I agree, having helped my wife research info for her college degree and seeing that schools clearly state you NEVER USE WIKIPEDIA as it is grossly inaccurate, I also cannot trust it as a published site of solid info, but it is an interesting site of info which I still have also used, but do my best to ignore.

[oldshurst442]

14 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Moltar- you mentioned Wikipedia in another thread ; anyone question the site's rule of only using published sources for information - like everything published is somehow peer-reviewed. I guess there's little other way of doing things; assumedly users will discount the grossly inaccurate sources, but this relies on a strange, amorphous 'community think' where anonymous strangers all have the 'better good' of the 'internet encyclopedia' at heart.

I mean, whats supposed to happen when all the published sources are widely inaccurate?

There's a lot of long words there Mr. Balthazar. Im not but a humble restauranteur. 

 

11 minutes ago, dfelt said:

I agree, having helped my wife research info for her college degree and seeing that schools clearly state you NEVER USE WIKIPEDIA as it is grossly inaccurate, I also cannot trust it as a published site of solid info, but it is an interesting site of info which I still have also used, but do my best to ignore.

Ahhhhh....now I understand what was meant!

I too...question Wikipedia...but I do use it...a lot...but as a guideline rather than concrete information. 

Wiki has its place. Its accurate enough when one knows where to get better more accurate information from and just uses Wiki to guide him in the right direction.

 

Edited December 26, 2017 by oldshurst442

[Robert Hall]

25 minutes ago, dfelt said:

I agree, having helped my wife research info for her college degree and seeing that schools clearly state you NEVER USE WIKIPEDIA as it is grossly inaccurate, I also cannot trust it as a published site of solid info, but it is an interesting site of info which I still have also used, but do my best to ignore.

Actually, it's quite accurate for the most part as far as automotive info..I use it for all sorts of factual data..like what year was a particular town settled, who won the NFC East in 1988, what is the estimated population of a city, etc.   Schools don't like Wikipedia as it keeps people out of their libraries.     I've seen some things clearly inaccurate on Wikipedia, but for ordinary daily use I think it's fine.    Google + Wikipedia on my phone answers a lot of general daily questions that come up in life, IMO..

For car data, if I'm interested in lots of arcane info on older models, I might dig through my Collectible Automobile or Hemmings Classic Car magazines, but for basic facts and figures Wikipedia seems fine---like what engines were in the 3rd generation Corolla, what is the wheelbase of the 1st gen Equinox, or what was the first year of the Escalade.  I have found glaring errors on occasionally, but not often.   Some cars the facts are pretty thin on but some have lots of details...

I don't use Wikipedia as my only source, of course, I use it conjunction with other sources on the internet...like if I'm traveling somewhere, I read up on the location in Wikipedia if I haven't been there, check Yelp for restaurant and other business reviews, study Google Maps to understand the layout of the freeways and streets, etc..

Edited December 26, 2017 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[oldshurst442]

2 minutes ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

Actually, it's quite accurate for the most part as far as automotive info..I use it for all sorts of factual data..like what year was a particular town settled, etc.   Schools don't like Wikipedia as it keeps people out of their libraries.     I've seen some things clearly inaccurate on Wikipedia, but for ordinary daily use I think it's fine. 

Like I said in the funny post above...(well, it was funny to me anyhow...)

Wiki works excellently well for what it is. Its free on the internet and no advertisements make it lean one way or the other. 

A troll just cant change info on Wiki just because he can because he cant. 

There is a "google" amount of information on wikipedia rivaling Google itself.

There is also an Encyclopedia Britannica amount of information at Wikipedia too, albeit not as precise I gather. But then again...Encyclopedia Britannica may not be without bias...

So...Wiki has its place on the internet in 2017 and going forward...

 

[oldshurst442]

38 minutes ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

I don't use Wikipedia as my only source, of course, I use it conjunction with other sources on the internet...like if I'm traveling somewhere, I read up on the location in Wikipedia if I haven't been there, check Yelp for restaurant and other business reviews, study Google Maps to understand the layout of the freeways and streets, etc..

I do EXACTLY the same thing!!!

 

[Robert Hall]

...and Google Street View and sometimes Google Earth.  I like to scope out locations before I visit them.  I'm a map geek, been a fan since I was a kid.  Devouring Rand McNally road atlases, Thomas guides, D&K, Fodor and Frommes guides...

[balthazar]

but as a guideline rather than concrete information. 

^ I think this sums up the best approach.

Some things are nearly impossible to have incorrect on WP- like a sports win or the first year for Product X- agreed. But in accounts of an event, especially when the entry pulls bits from multiple sources on the same event... who knows FOR SURE which account of that bit is accurate?

The historical event I've been researching has numerous published accounts already out there, but even the few reliable ones are riddled with inaccuracies, myths and fabrications. Yep; my own research and analysis has shown this up. As I read & re-read these few 'reliable' sources, more and more of the erroneous bubbles to the surface.

If one is an enthusiast about a historical event, then those errors are difficult to stomach.

[daves87rs]

11 hours ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

Fascinating how the Lake Effect snow bands and patterns lead to light dustings in some areas and big snows in other areas, often very close together.    Had only 2-3 inches or so here in the south west Cleveland suburbs, just cold today.   Up the coast to the east--maybe 25-30 miles away--they've had 8-10 inches so far with another foot coming...and 2 hours up the coast in Erie, Pa they had 53 inches in 2 days!

Yep, like that here as well..... we got like 2-3 inches, and about 40 miles north they got 6-8.....

Crazy how those bands work sometimes......

[oldshurst442]

12 hours ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

...and Google Street View and sometimes Google Earth.  I like to scope out locations before I visit them.  I'm a map geek, been a fan since I was a kid.  Devouring Rand McNally road atlases, Thomas guides, D&K, Fodor and Frommes guides...

Me too.

I dont do car GPS. (The Acura's is shyte anyway.) I do Google Maps whether on Google Earth or on Google Maps and get directions that way and see for myself what route is better for me at home.  

If the destination is far, like an out of city or province destination, I will print the directions at home and drive...the old fashion way and observe what is going. The print out is like having an old fashioned map. 

If the location is complicated...I will use Google Street View at home before leaving and get a visual of what the destination travel looks like before hand.

 I too, studied all kinds of road maps that belonged to my dad. 

I also had a globe growing up  that I studied and learned all the countries and the United States and where are they in the world from that globe. 

 

[Robert Hall]

Had a globe also...and a couple hardbound World Atlases that I'd study as a kid.   I print out directions also when going to an unfamiliar area.    The last 6 months have been a lot of fun, the sense of being in a new place to explore but one that is also vaguely familiar (I lived in NE Ohio from '88-94 when in college and grad school, but my travels through the region were limited then).  

[Cmicasa the Great]

Keep hoping and thinking that there is more to all this DOHC TT Turbo V8 shit than just giving it exclusively to Corvette. That this will be leveraged to Cadillac for a better ROI

[oldshurst442]

3 hours ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Keep hoping and thinking that there is more to all this DOHC TT Turbo V8 $h! than just giving it exclusively to Corvette. That this will be leveraged to Cadillac for a better ROI

I would want for Cadillac to use this engine myself. Unfortunately, clueless luxury buyers require DOHC V8s for their purchases. So Cadillac has to do that. The Northstar V8 was well accepted by this crowd, so Cadillac should have never left that behind. 

However, I dont know how I wanna feel about this for Corvette. 

I do understand, maybe, the push for DOHC for the Vette. Does it have to do with CAFE and getting a better carbon footprint? Or something like that?

Whatever it may be...The pushrod Chevy small block is THE greatest V8 of our times, and BECAUSE it is compact, I would assume that a rear mid-engined Corvette could benefit EVEN more from using it even MORE than a front mid-engined Vette does...

I have NEVER heard anything negative about a pushrod V8 being in the Corvette, so I am a tad on the fence with that...

 

[G. David Felt]

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

The pushrod Chevy small block is THE greatest V8 of our times...

I have NEVER heard anything negative about a pushrod V8 being in the Corvette...

This is why we see so many auto's from JEEP, Ford, Mercedes-Benz to Asian auto's that end up on some custom auto builders shop and a Small Block GM V8 ends up under the hood.

GM has built the world's best V8 engine and as some are so big on using sales numbers to prove their auto is better than the GM V8. This just proves this many times over as the best auto engine out there period is the Pushrod V8 IMHO.  

[FAPTurbo]

6 minutes ago, dfelt said:

GM has built the world's best V8 engine

[Frisky Dingo]

The GM V8 is absolutely NOT the world's best V8. That is such an incredibly daft thing to say I can't quite wrap my head around it.

[balthazar]

It's definitely top shelf.

Defining "best" is going to vary with opinion/bias & criteria.

[Robert Hall]

1 hour ago, dfelt said:

This is why we see so many auto's from JEEP, Ford, Mercedes-Benz to Asian auto's that end up on some custom auto builders shop and a Small Block GM V8 ends up under the hood.

 

The reason customizers use SBCs is they are cheap and lots of parts are available and lots of people know how to work on them.   

[oldshurst442]

Yes.  

About the SBC NOT being the best V8 engine.

But they make gobs of power,  could be customized to make even more power with ease because lots of people know how to hop them up and usually are as simple as bolt ons and are more reliable than well...mom always being there for you. Fuel efficient as fuel efficient could get when one is talking about high horsepower.  The SBC is a RACE motor as its also a daily driver motor as its also a sports car motor as its also a work horse truck motor. The block stays mostly the same in all variants, just the type of material of the block and cylinder heads and cams change for the different vocation of the motor is tasked to do. Its ENGINEERED that way from the get go.   And more importantly than all of that...which is substantial considering all that I said above...is that the Chevy Small Block fits under ALL hoods of ANY car of ANY type of ANY country of origin. Other engineers of all kinds and automobile dudes AROUND the world use it in THEIR projects including using it as boat engines and AIRPLANE engines.

Now...with the couple of people frowning upon that statement...

Those are criterias that I put forth.

No biases as what I said is very truthful. General statements. But very very representative of the Chevy Small Block.

I challenge ANYBODY to rebuttal this...

NO!

Not by PUTTING down the SBC!!!  (The MODERN TODAY LS series of engines and we are now into the modern LT series) 

BUT BY ACTUALLY PRESENTING ANOTHER V8 CURRENTLY UNDER PRODUCTION AND FIGHT YOUR WAY AROUND YOUR NAYSAYING!!!

 

 

Edited December 27, 2017 by oldshurst442

[Frisky Dingo]

The SBC is a great engine. Nobody here is saying it isn't. But it's not the greatest V8. The only maybe metric you could come close to making that argument with is value and build potential. And it's absolutely very significant. I would even argue it's in the top-5 best/greatest. But THE 'best'? No.

 

Mercedes/AMG or Ferrari are really your only 2 players in contention for such a title, imo. 

[balthazar]

^ I'm sure there are people that would argue that theory, too.

Quote

The reason customizers use SBCs is they are cheap and lots of parts are available and lots of people know how to work on them.

You forgot the PRIMARY reason the quantity of those swaps is made.

Edited December 27, 2017 by balthazar

[G. David Felt]

3 hours ago, Frisky Dingo said:

The GM V8 is absolutely NOT the world's best V8. That is such an incredibly daft thing to say I can't quite wrap my head around it.

To use what some of you seem to think makes an auto best, sales numbers. GM has built the best V8 based on pure sales numbers alone since it is the leading built engine. Small Block V8 pushrod.

So how would you state what the best V8 engine is? 

Probably one of those over rated DOHC engines that revs a ton, produces a decent number of HP and weak Torque like so many European engines or Asian engines do?

Just saying if you go by sales numbers, GM is the best if not one of the top two in the world and I believe Ford would be right there with them.

2 hours ago, Frisky Dingo said:

The SBC is a great engine. Nobody here is saying it isn't. But it's not the greatest V8. The only maybe metric you could come close to making that argument with is value and build potential. And it's absolutely very significant. I would even argue it's in the top-5 best/greatest. But THE 'best'? No.

 

Mercedes/AMG or Ferrari are really your only 2 players in contention for such a title, imo. 

I would have to disagree with you as I have seen way too many people look at the crazy cost to keep those engines running and end up going for reliability and long life. In goes the SBC.

[Frisky Dingo]

1 hour ago, dfelt said:

To use what some of you seem to think makes an auto best, sales numbers. GM has built the best V8 based on pure sales numbers alone since it is the leading built engine. Small Block V8 pushrod.

So how would you state what the best V8 engine is? 

Probably one of those over rated DOHC engines that revs a ton, produces a decent number of HP and weak Torque like so many European engines or Asian engines do?

Just saying if you go by sales numbers, GM is the best if not one of the top two in the world and I believe Ford would be right there with them.

I would have to disagree with you as I have seen way too many people look at the crazy cost to keep those engines running and end up going for reliability and long life. In goes the SBC.

 

Using sales numbers to back up the claim of what engine is 'best' is downright comical.

 

 

Yeah, by all means, let's hear these stories about Ferrari and AMG owners who have swapped GM small blocks into their cars.  

[balthazar]

There certainly have been more small block transplants into Mercedes of various vintages than the other way around.

- - - - -
An interesting contrast ~
• the current MBAMGGT black series offers a 6.2L SC V8, rated at 622 HP and 468 TRQ.
This is the top V8 from Daimler according to what I googled up.

• the GM LT4 is a 6.2L SC V8, rated at 650 HP and 650 TRQ.
• the GM LT5 is a 6.2L SC V8, rated at 755 HP and 715 TRQ (slated for 2019).

I'm expecting that this, also, is an incredibly daft/ face-palming criteria to judge motor vehicle engines by.

Edited December 28, 2017 by balthazar

[smk4565]

Mercedes-AMG only has one V8 now, the 4.0 liter bi-turbo, makes anywhere from 479 hp to 603 hp and 627 lb-ft depending on the car.  

The Ferrari 488 has a 3.9 liter V8 with 660 hp and 560 lb-ft.

The McLaren 720S has a 4.0 liter V8 with 710 hp and 568 lb-ft

You have the Bentley with over 810 lb-ft of torque from their V8, who's to say what is best.

[balthazar]

How about we add them together; HP + TRQ = 'power total'?

[daves87rs]

8 hours ago, FAPTurbo said:

Well, at least he wasn't talking about the rest of the car....

[balthazar]

I'd guess that's the face Kermit makes when FAP asks Kermit to check his underwear for onion chunks.

[oldshurst442]

6 hours ago, Frisky Dingo said:

 

 

Mercedes/AMG or Ferrari are really your only 2 players in contention for such a title, imo. 

I would agree to those two in contention.

Now...give me a reason or two so I could change my mind...

Pagani using an AMG motor or  a Ferrari V8 sounding like a symphony just wont cut it. 

I need more than that...because while swapping a Honda motor in a Civic with an LS engine is no big thing...swapping it and making it work to fly is another...

As we all know...weight is the ultimate enemy to go faster, but its an even bigger factor when you wanna fly...

And while LOVE me some classical Mozart or Beethoven or Chopin and the like and I compare those masterpieces to Ferrari engine sounds no matter what the Ferrari cylinder count maybe...

I also love the sweet beat of rock-n-roll.  And I compare that sound to the American V8...

Here...an example of how I dont mind hearing this day in day out over ANY Ferrari engine.

 

And if anybody can convince me...its you Frisky.

So...give me reasons. 

[Cmicasa the Great]

17 hours ago, Frisky Dingo said:

The GM V8 is absolutely NOT the world's best V8. That is such an incredibly daft thing to say I can't quite wrap my head around it.

So in your opinion.. what is??? Yeah Benz, BMW, Ferrari, VW, Toyota, and Nissan.. all build a nice. sometimes magnificent V8s.. but really.. great engineering shouldn't only be about how it sounds and such.. but how long it lasts under daily use. Durability being the key thing. Hell.. my 396 is an original build as far as I kno. Yeah.. I've updated the ignition to HEI, replaced the rockers and a few valve springs.. but it cost me in total about $500.. and on an engine that is 52 years old.

The OHV stigma... for some reason despite the engine's contemporary configuration, superior HP and fuel efficiency and low maintenance... GM still allows peoples idiotic perceptions... caused by even more idiotic Media, to influence their use of this engine company wide as the V8 of choice. They have successfully incorporated Direct-Injection as well as AFM in the OHV design, which is neither low tech or old tech.

We currently have these well known OHV engines on the market... and if U are lucky, u have driven at least one car that they show up in and can agree or disagree with what I'm saying:

5.3L 355HP/385 lbs AFM

6.0L 361HP/385 lbs AFM

6.2L 415HP/460lbs

6.2L 420HP/465 lbs

6.2L 460HP/465 lbs

6.2LS/C 650-HP/650 lbs

7.0L 505HP/470 lbs

6.2LS/C  755HP/715lbs S/C

I won't even get into the easy and cost effectiveness of investing just a few hundred dollars to make them even more powerful vs the tuning one of the Germans or Japanese 

 This full range of V8 engines which have been mainstays on Wards "Best Engines" for years in their previous and current configs. should be held up in HIGH REGARD with in GM, and in the automotive community as a whole.

The only other maker that matches GM's V8s in terms of power and durability is Mercedes Benz. I always liken it to the fact that both makers have been around for almost the same amount of time, and operated in every single country on the planet as the other... Giving both a diversity in Engineering that seemingly is only rivaled by each other.

One thing that Mercedes doesn't do in a comparison between the two... is match GM's efficiency... These OHV engines in some cases are as efficient as many other makers's V6s. Imagine a Chevy Tahoe weighing 1000 lbs more than a Honda Pilot... getting almost identical F/E as that Pilot while touting about 60 more HP. 

My RANT has been for several years that GM hold fast to there great creation... Drop it into their FULL LINE... from Chevy to Cadillac. The gripe once was that OHV engines were not as quiet and smooth as a OHC... perhaps 15... perhaps even 10 years ago... but not today. I challenge ANYONE of U to go out and test drive a 550i... then go test a lowly Chevy SS... I will guarantee that U will not notice much of a difference in driving dynamics, specifically in the engine. The one thing U might notice and gripe about... is that the V8 growl is in absent in the car that it should be... and present in the one it shouldn't...

 

[Cmicasa the Great]

 

13 hours ago, Frisky Dingo said:

 

Using sales numbers to back up the claim of what engine is 'best' is downright comical.

Yeah, by all means, let's hear these stories about Ferrari and AMG owners who have swapped GM small blocks into their cars.  

One doesn't have to use sales numbers.. the idea that MOST Ferrari owners wouldn't put a Chevy engine in their vehicle is simply one of authenticity.. as one would hope.. when buying and restoring certain high end vehicles.. something that has an equivalent today of $200K+, even if being from the past, would at least be worthy of a true engine restore. Even in Corvettes.. U don't see anyone trying to put a CHEVY 305 in it.. cause that would be deplorable. Of course.. some get TIRED of the BULLSHIT maintenance that is owning a world class POS that requires massive dollars to just maintain for an occasional 200 miles a year ride.. so they put some American BIG DICK.. in a lil Bitch of an Ital  :

[Drew Dowdell]

Horsepower per liter is the dumbest metric possible. If we use that metric, most 2-stroke chainsaws would beat most cars. Even your grandmother can make 800 horsepower if we spin her fast enough. 

[ccap41]

I think the only thing that makes one "best" is how it makes the driver feel while piloting the vehicle. They all have different characteristics and I think "value", hp per liter, sound, compactness, efficiency, durability all looked at individually are terrible. Combine them all and you'll never find a Ferrari or AMG v8 with 300,000 miles on it so they wouldn't even be considered..which wouldn't be accurate, imo.  

Deciding factor? How much irrational love for it do you have? 

[oldshurst442]

30 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

I think the only thing that makes one "best" is how it makes the driver feel while piloting the vehicle. They all have different characteristics and I think "value", hp per liter, sound, compactness, efficiency, durability all looked at individually are terrible. Combine them all and you'll never find a Ferrari or AMG v8 with 300,000 miles on it so they wouldn't even be considered..which wouldn't be accurate, imo.  

Deciding factor? How much irrational love for it do you have? 

 

Engineering SHOULD be a part of it...

SMK mentioned HP/liter...

Yet the EXTERIOR dimensions of a SBC is quite compact.  A 6.2 liter SBC is prolly SMALLER physically than a 3 point or 4 point something liter Ferrari V8. The volume of an engine in cubic inches or liters is NOT how physically big on the exterior the engine is, but how much air can flow inside the engine....and the engineering of a SBC to make it that compact and that voluminous on the inside has GOT to be a factor. 

If it aint...cool.

OK...

Money as in value.

An exotic V8 made by Ferrari, BMW, M-B/AMG, and any other manufacturer is expensive. Yes...exotic materials and production and stuff...

OK...

A SBC...is a race motor, is a daily driver motor, is a work horse motor and a sports car motor.

It has to have enough horsepower to win races in the racing world...and it does that.

It has to be docile enough to be a daily driver and as we know race motors are NOT ideal for daily driver use. It has to be fuel efficient for daily driver use...AND to win races...

It also has to be a sports car motor. Have enough racing balls and daily driver manners to be a daily driven sports car.

It also has to be a work horse where its torque numbers and horsepower have to be re-calibrated to do some blue collar work in Vans and pick-up trucks and...cop car duties. 

Ok...still not impressed.

 

You mentioned the following and loyalty  and passion an engine brings to its owners...

YOU GOT TO BE KIDDING ME???!!!

The LOYAL following the LS engines have is only matched by HEMIs and Ford Cleveland V8s...

Sure AMG V8s and Ferrari V8s have a following...maybe on the same level of a SBC...but probably not.

But its OK...

The SBC leads or is on top of ANY criteria ANYBODY wants to throw at it. 

Configure any factor you wanna talk about and I guarantee you that the SBC is be a part of that conversation. If not winning the criteria out-right, in second place for sure. 

More often than not...ANY criteria thrown at it...the SBC will be on top and if points were rewarded for podium placement...the SBC would win the competition...

Casa and myself GAVE MULTIPLE examples of why WE BOTH think the SBC is the greatest. 

All we have so far for the M-B/AMG and Ferrari motors...is just the sheer MENTIONING of them...NO EXAMPLES WERE GIVING OF WHY THESE MOTORS ARE BETTER/GREATER/MORE PASSIONATE MOTORS than the SBC.

The very fact that a Ferrari was bought by "an enthusiast" and dropped an LS engine in it is proof enough of how loyal/reliable an LS engine could be.

How easy it is to drop it in...fabrication was surely made...yet its MORE COST EFFECTIVE to RE-ENGINEER the back end of a FERRARI than just OVERHAUL AND MAINTAIN a FERRARI V8...

SYMPHONY OF A FERRARI V8?

SURE...again...the lustful sounds of an American V8 can even surpass the symphony of a Ferrari V8...

Edited December 28, 2017 by oldshurst442

[ccap41]

6 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

The SBC leads or is on top of ANY criteria ANYBODY wants to throw at it.

They will always lead the way in redneck ownership as well. 

 

7 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

myself GAVE MULTIPLE examples of why WE BOTH think the SBC is the greatest.

Were they all the personal opinions you just went on about? Or did I miss something factual in there? 

I have no real dog in this fight. I just don't think there is anything special about the SBC. 

I'd rather listen to the brash 6.2's from AMG, 5.2 from Ford, and the numerous flat plane crank Ferrari and Mclaren V8s. Are they "better"? You'd say no because of opinion but there's nothing that draws a definite line in the sand from the Chevy motor to other motors. 

But like I said, which one gives you the most feels? It sure seems like its the Chevy motor for you. I can't get enough of the 6.2 from AMG and the 5.2 from Ford. Without even driving them they get me all excited just hearing them! 

None of the other engines in the world will have the following of a SBC because its a truck motor too that sells hundreds of thousands of units per year. The volume alone gathers a great following before adding in the Camaro, Vette, and CTS-V. The Ford 5.0 and FCA 5.7 are the only ones that can compete on the level of following. 

[Frisky Dingo]

48 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

So in your opinion.. what is??? Yeah Benz, BMW, Ferrari, VW, Toyota, and Nissan.. all build a nice. sometimes magnificent V8s.. but really.. great engineering shouldn't only be about how it sounds and such.. but how long it lasts under daily use. Durability being the key thing. Hell.. my 396 is an original build as far as I kno. Yeah.. I've updated the ignition to HEI, replaced the rockers and a few valve springs.. but it cost me in total about $500.. and on an engine that is 52 years old.

The OHV stigma... for some reason despite the engine's contemporary configuration, superior HP and fuel efficiency and low maintenance... GM still allows peoples idiotic perceptions... caused by even more idiotic Media, to influence their use of this engine company wide as the V8 of choice. They have successfully incorporated Direct-Injection as well as AFM in the OHV design, which is neither low tech or old tech.

We currently have these well known OHV engines on the market... and if U are lucky, u have driven at least one car that they show up in and can agree or disagree with what I'm saying:

5.3L 355HP/385 lbs AFM

6.0L 361HP/385 lbs AFM

6.2L 415HP/460lbs

6.2L 420HP/465 lbs

6.2L 460HP/465 lbs

6.2LS/C 650-HP/650 lbs

7.0L 505HP/470 lbs

6.2LS/C  755HP/715lbs S/C

I won't even get into the easy and cost effectiveness of investing just a few hundred dollars to make them even more powerful vs the tuning one of the Germans or Japanese 

 This full range of V8 engines which have been mainstays on Wards "Best Engines" for years in their previous and current configs. should be held up in HIGH REGARD with in GM, and in the automotive community as a whole.

The only other maker that matches GM's V8s in terms of power and durability is Mercedes Benz. I always liken it to the fact that both makers have been around for almost the same amount of time, and operated in every single country on the planet as the other... Giving both a diversity in Engineering that seemingly is only rivaled by each other.

One thing that Mercedes doesn't do in a comparison between the two... is match GM's efficiency... These OHV engines in some cases are as efficient as many other makers's V6s. Imagine a Chevy Tahoe weighing 1000 lbs more than a Honda Pilot... getting almost identical F/E as that Pilot while touting about 60 more HP. 

My RANT has been for several years that GM hold fast to there great creation... Drop it into their FULL LINE... from Chevy to Cadillac. The gripe once was that OHV engines were not as quiet and smooth as a OHC... perhaps 15... perhaps even 10 years ago... but not today. I challenge ANYONE of U to go out and test drive a 550i... then go test a lowly Chevy SS... I will guarantee that U will not notice much of a difference in driving dynamics, specifically in the engine. The one thing U might notice and gripe about... is that the V8 growl is in absent in the car that it should be... and present in the one it shouldn't...

 

 

Cmicasa, a very well thought out post with a lot of good points. I'm fortunate enough to have driven at least one car/truck with every one of those engines, save the new ZR1 spec SC 6.2.

They are all great engines. The LS7, in particular, is one of my absolute favorite engines, regardless of cylinder count, layout, whatever. I would wholeheartedly support, and even argue for, it being brandied about in a discussion of the top 5- or even 3- best V8's. What puts that engine so high for me, and something that a some other GM engines lack, despite their power ratings, is character. The LS7 somehow manages to feel vastly different from an LS2. Fare more than it would appear on paper. Not only the power, but the delivery of it, the sound, the way it pulls through the rev range. I find most other GM V8's just slightly lacking in the thrill/enjoyment to completely wring out department. Being an OHV engine, it's top end will of course will be one of it's weaknesses compared to other V8's that are DOHC. They just have this mildly truckey/coarse nature. The LS7 doesn't. It feels much, much racier.

For what it's worth, my argument for 'best' is Ferrari V8 in Speciale spec in #1, and then MB's M159 6.2 V8 found in the SLS AMG BS. I could definitely be on board with the LS7 possibly being #3. To me, it really becomes a toss up between it, McLaren's TTV8, and AMG's new turbo V8.

 

 

@oldshurst442

[balthazar]

19 hours ago, Frisky Dingo said:

The GM V8 is absolutely NOT the world's best V8. That is such an incredibly daft thing to say I can't quite wrap my head around it.

 

4 minutes ago, Frisky Dingo said:

I could definitely be on board with the LS7 possibly being #3. To me, it really becomes a toss up between it, McLaren's TTV8, and AMG's new turbo V8.

Want to take a stab at pegging your stance somewhere between these 2 posts?

[oldshurst442]

13 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Were they all the personal opinions you just went on about? Or did I miss something factual in there? 

You think that a Silverado V8 and a Corvette V8 and C7R V8 and a Chevrolet SS/Caprice Cop Car/Camaro V8...which is basically the same block...  and how GM engineered the vocation of the LS series engine for each of these vehicles is OPINION versus fact?

You think that how compact exterior wise the LS engines are just opinion versus fact? 

You will deny the economies of scale the LS V8 engine enjoys and it has become very affordable to hot rodders and average joe red necks to real hard core engineering endeavors vis-a-vis the performance the LS engine makes and reliability it has and call THAT an opinion versus fact? 

And yes...I LOVE AMG and Voodoo motors myself. I also love the Oldsmobile big block and Pontiac big block V8s...Coyotes and Clevelands and old and new Hemis...THAT would be the ONLY opinion I gave....yet YOU were the one to pitch that criteria on to me...with your rhetorical question...

57 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Deciding factor? How much irrational love for it do you have? 

 Remember...I asked to give me examples of how other motors could compare....

I said DO NOT DENY THE SBC but to PROP UP other motors...

Frisky just posted some stuff while Im writing this...I havent read his post yet as Im still typing this post...

IM WILLING TO BET HE WILL NOT DISAPPOINT ME!!! 

You have failed me CCAP...

 

Edited December 28, 2017 by oldshurst442

[Frisky Dingo]

50 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

I think the only thing that makes one "best" is how it makes the driver feel while piloting the vehicle. They all have different characteristics and I think "value", hp per liter, sound, compactness, efficiency, durability all looked at individually are terrible. Combine them all and you'll never find a Ferrari or AMG v8 with 300,000 miles on it so they wouldn't even be considered..which wouldn't be accurate, imo.  

Deciding factor? How much irrational love for it do you have? 

 

This. 'Best' is simply that- the best. Power, sound, delivery, character, etc. Not production numbers, how many get used as the basis for engine swaps, not how much power they gain with mods. 

Because using those measures, one can argue that a Camry is 'better' than a McLaren F1. But how absurd does that sound?

 

20 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

 

Engineering SHOULD be a part of it...

SMK mentioned HP/liter...

Yet the EXTERIOR dimensions of a SBC is quite compact.  A 6.2 liter SBC is prolly SMALLER physically than a 3 point or 4 point something liter Ferrari V8. The volume of an engine in cubic inches or liters is NOT how physically big on the exterior the engine is, but how much air can flow inside the engine....and the engineering of a SBC to make it that compact and that voluminous on the inside has GOT to be a factor. 

If it aint...cool.

OK...

Money as in value.

An exotic V8 made by Ferrari, BMW, M-B/AMG, and any other manufacturer is expensive. Yes...exotic materials and production and stuff...

OK...

A SBC...is a race motor, is a daily driver motor, is a work horse motor and a sports car motor.

It has to have enough horsepower to win races in the racing world...and it does that.

It has to be docile enough to be a daily driver and as we know race motors are NOT ideal for daily driver use. It has to be fuel efficient for daily driver use...AND to win races...

It also has to be a sports car motor. Have enough racing balls and daily driver manners to be a daily driven sports car.

It also has to be a work horse where its torque numbers and horsepower have to be re-calibrated to do some blue collar work in Vans and pick-up trucks and...cop car duties. 

Ok...still not impressed.

 

You mentioned the following and loyalty  and passion an engine brings to its owners...

YOU GOT TO BE KIDDING ME???!!!

The LOYAL following the LS engines have is only matched by HEMIs and Ford Cleveland V8s...

Sure AMG V8s and Ferrari V8s have a following...maybe on the same level of a SBC...but probably not.

But its OK...

The SBC leads or is on top of ANY criteria ANYBODY wants to throw at it. 

Configure any factor you wanna talk about and I guarantee you that the SBC is be a part of that conversation. If not winning the criteria out-right, in second place for sure. 

More often than not...ANY criteria thrown at it...the SBC will be on top and if points were rewarded for podium placement...the SBC would win the competition...

Casa and myself GAVE MULTIPLE examples of why WE BOTH think the SBC is the greatest. 

All we have so far for the M-B/AMG and Ferrari motors...is just the sheer MENTIONING of them...NO EXAMPLES WERE GIVING OF WHY THESE MOTORS ARE BETTER/GREATER/MORE PASSIONATE MOTORS than the SBC.

The very fact that a Ferrari was bought by "an enthusiast" and dropped an LS engine in it is proof enough of how loyal/reliable an LS engine could be.

How easy it is to drop it in...fabrication was surely made...yet its MORE COST EFFECTIVE to RE-ENGINEER the back end of a FERRARI than just OVERHAUL AND MAINTAIN a FERRARI V8...

SYMPHONY OF A FERRARI V8?

SURE...again...the lustful sounds of an American V8 can even surpass the symphony of a Ferrari V8...

 

I feel like I am a VERY fair judge of cars. We all know Porsche is my favorite brand, and I am not making a case for any of their V8's being anywhere near the top here. Conversely, I don't care much for Mercedes or Ferrari. 

I'm merely being honest here. Until you've experienced a Ferrari V8, it's hard to accurately assess. I love a great American V8. I've had several. Hope to have several more. But Ferrari's V8.....it's just magical. Electric. It makes the hair on the back of your neck stand up. It's like you can feel and hear every step in the process of ambient air being sucked in with ferocity, squished into its oblivion, and then launched out with accompanied by a banshee howl. The throttle response, the intake noise, the manic power delivery and frenzied rush to the redline. It is truly an experience that is on another level from other MFR's V8's.

[ccap41]

5 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

You think that how compact exterior wise the LS engines are just opinion versus fact? 

How much smaller are they compared to say the 6.2 AMG? 

10 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

You think that a Silverado V8 and a Corvette V8 and C7R V8 and a Chevrolet SS/Caprice Cop Car/Camaro V8...which is basically the same block...  and how GM engineered the vocation of the LS series engine for each of these vehicles is OPINION versus fact?

Yes, it is an opinion that them doing that makes it any better than any other V8. I'm not dissing the engines themselves but using that as an argument as to why they are great, is weak sauce. 

[ccap41]

11 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

You will deny the economies of scale the LS V8

I don't even know what you're getting at here. I not once denied anything like that. You're in full rant-mode right now. 

13 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

You have failed me CCAP...

Sorry I don't have a huge boner over the SBC, for the most part. 

It just doesn't do anything special to me. It doesn't make me want to hear it or go drive a 5.3 Silverado. 6.2's? Yes. I'd love to experience the 7.0 LS7.

[Drew Dowdell]

Some of it boils down to preferences.  The italian supercar engines' soundtracks don't appeal to me. I like the deep throat growl of high displacement American V8s.  I also like low end torque... spinning an engine to 8,000 rpm doesn't appeal to me at all.  

So, other factors aside, I prefer the GM 6.2 or the Hemis.  Are they the best? That's not for me to decide, but they are certainly my personal preference.   I don't care at all about hp/liter or max peak horsepower as long as the actual delivery of the power is satisfying.  What it is like to live with is far more important than what it might perform like on paper.

Soundtrack + usable power delivery + reliability + fuel economy = GM SBC or Chrysler Hemi for me every day of the week and twice on Sundays.  A Sierra 6.2 at full tilt is what brings the hairs on my neck to stand up and take notice. 

[Frisky Dingo]

43 minutes ago, balthazar said:

 

Want to take a stab at pegging your stance somewhere between these 2 posts?

 

I don't fully understand your question.

5 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Some of it boils down to preferences.  The italian supercar engines' soundtracks don't appeal to me. I like the deep throat growl of high displacement American V8s.  I also like low end torque... spinning an engine to 8,000 rpm doesn't appeal to me at all.  

So, other factors aside, I prefer the GM 6.2 or the Hemis.  Are they the best? That's not for me to decide, but they are certainly my personal preference.   I don't care at all about hp/liter or max peak horsepower as long as the actual delivery of the power is satisfying.  What it is like to live with is far more important than what it might perform like on paper.

Soundtrack + usable power delivery + reliability + fuel economy = GM SBC or Chrysler Hemi for me every day of the week and twice on Sundays.  A Sierra 6.2 at full tilt is what brings the hairs on my neck to stand up and take notice. 

 

Even by Domestic V8 standards, a Sierra 6.2 is quite mild. In both sound and character.

[ccap41]

6 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Soundtrack + usable power delivery + reliability + fuel economy = GM SBC or Chrysler Hemi for me every day of the week and twice on Sundays.  A Sierra 6.2 at full tilt is what brings the hairs on my neck to stand up and take notice. 

Exactly! That's all that really matters. What it makes you feel and how much the driver likes it. There are just too many variables to truly decide what makes one engine "better" than the other when there are hundreds of thousands of other parts that play a factor in the vehicle as well...the rest of the vehicle. 

One example: fuel economy? gearing + aero efficiency + wheel weight/tire drag play a major role so the engine might be efficient or not and the other parts of the vehicle could drag it down or prop it up to look better or worse than it is. 

None of us here could factually separate the GM 6.2 from the Ford 5.0 in which engine ALONE is the most efficient. There are too many factors in both trucks and cars to make the engines alone just another piece to the puzzle. 

[oldshurst442]

50 minutes ago, Frisky Dingo said:

This. 'Best' is simply that- the best. Power, sound, delivery, character, etc. Not production numbers, how many get used as the basis for engine swaps, not how much power they gain with mods. 

Because using those measures, one can argue that a Camry is 'better' than a McLaren F1. But how absurd does that sound?

You forgot about engineering...

I agree with what you said...

But...when a Ferrari 488's engine gets to be engineered cost effectively and put into a 1500 or 2500 series pick-up truck to do blue collar work at lasts 300 000 miles with not major overhauls and sells about 1 million units per year every year and then and also continues to be a Ferrari 488 racing around Lemans and and daily driven...

Yes...the 3.9 liter Ferrari 488 V8 is engineered to the highest degree of super sports car order...as like a SBC...

The SBC is also a work horse lasting 300 000 hard miles. 

The SBC also does 200 000 daily driven miles in cop duty form.

200 000 daily driven family car miles in fuel efficient comfort.

200 000 daily hard driven sports car miles that give that 300-400 hundred thousand dollar Ferrari 488 a run for its performance money...

And while yes...

THE BEST means so many things to many many people...

The point is still stands that a SBC is THE greatest V8 of our modern times...

And Cadillac...DESPITE these merits NEEDS to go DOCH but Corvette would be STUPID to dump the usual pushrod SBC formula to chase the NOW mundane DOHC V8 world...

 

And while CCAP does not get a hard on for the SBC...EXPOSING HIS BIASED argument WORSE than mine...actually...mine is just focused on PRAISING the MERITS of the SBC...I HAVE NOT denounced the other contenders...

YES a Ferrari V8 SOUNDS terrific...

So does a SBC.

Different sounds...but that does not take away from the opponent...

Its just different sounds...and the SBC sounds just as GOOD as a Ferrari V8...

THEY ARE BOTH EQUAL...

Yet...the SBC is also found on a Silverado...sounds OK on a Silverado...but its meant to do WORK...HARD WORK...

NOT RACING WORK...BLUE COLLAR WORK...

 

8 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

There are too many factors in both trucks and cars to make the engines alone just another piece to the puzzle. 

And yet...a SBC (or a Ford V8) do both racing AND blue collar work...

Its a TESTAMENT to the engineering of an engine...

A long time ago...ENTHUSIASTS used to mention engineering of a Ferrari engine over a 1986 Monte Carlo SS catalytic converter choked 305 V8 or Crossfire 350 is soooooo superior...

Yet now...we seem to NOT want to address ENGINEERING into the equation...

Funny how that is...

And NO!

Im not ranting or raging...

Just giving my opinion...

Giving you folk a damned good argument.

Alls I get back is what YOU folk prefer....

Frisky...YOU prefer the Ferrari V8.

CCAP...you would prefer the Voodoo yet want to experience that HANDBUILT EXOTIC 7.0 liter SBC...

Yeah...its just as EXOTIC as a Ferrari V8 and AMG V8 that IS also HANDBUILT...

Yet...the block of that 7.0 liter is mind numbing similar to a Silverado SBC...

The SBC...although NOT the same lineage of that 283 V8 that found itself in the Corvette in 1955...has EVOLVED HUGELY...

Ignore that...its OK...

But dont laugh at me, DFELT or Casa when we say the SBC is THE GREATEST modern V8...Because we are NOT far from the truth when we say that...

Strong words those were....I agree...THE GREATEST...

Mohammed Ali said the exact same thing about himself....HE PROVED his worth...and I think the SBC proves its worth time and time again as well...

[ccap41]

7 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

And while CCAP does not get a hard on for the SBC...EXPOSING HIS BIASED argument WORSE than mine...actually...mine is just focused on PRAISING the MERITS of the SBC...I HAVE NOT denounced the other contenders...

What in the f*ck are you even talking about at this point? 

If you're speaking of biased you're the only one arguing for only one engine here. 

9 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Yet now...we seem to NOT want to address ENGINEERING into the equation...

So go into detail about how much better the Chevy engine is engineered compared to an AMG engine. Is it because it is a truck motor too? Is that your argument for the SBC? It is a truck and race motor? Hello Ford Coyote and FCA Hemi. 

 

11 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

CCAP...you would prefer the Voodoo yet want to experience that HANDBUILT EXOTIC 7.0 liter SBC...

You keep skipping over the AMG 6.2. Regardless, ...so what..? I can't love more than one engine family? 

 

12 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Mohammed Ali said the exact same thing about himself....HE PROVED his worth...and I think the SBC proves its worth time and time again as well...

You're right. And they're building a DOCH turbo engine. 

[oldshurst442]

@ccap41It looks like you are raging about me ONLY concentrating on the SBC...

 

YOU have failed to talk to me about how 1 motor...1 motor  not...many motors could challenge MY saying the SBC is the greatest...

 

If it takes MULTIPLE motors from DIFFERENT manufactures from DIFFERENT countries of origin to disprove MY saying the SBC is the greatest...you have already lost the argument.

 

Yes...what about the Hemi?

The Hellcat or Demon engine?

Yes...what about the Voodo or 6.2 liter AMG motor?

Or the 3.9 liter Ferrari V8?

Or the 4.0 liter BMW motor?

YOU pick just one of those and talk to me about it...

I gave you MULTIPLE angles on MULTIPLE posts backing up MY view of the SBC being the greatest...YOU do the same...

Just pick ANY V8 modern in production NOW and go for it!!!

Just ONE motor....

You see...the LS is also a FAMILY of engines doing a PLETHORA of things...the BLOCK stays the same...the cams, the cylinder heads and the materials that make up the block differ....

YOU have a tall order to fill and THAT is why YOU are raging...

Like I said...pick just ONE motor and convince me why that ONE motor is THE greatest...

 

[Frisky Dingo]

1 minute ago, oldshurst442 said:

@ccap41It looks like you are raging about me ONLY concentrating on the SBC...

 

YOU have failed to talk to me about how 1 motor...1 motor  not...many motors could challenge MY saying the SBC is the greatest...

 

If it takes MULTIPLE motors from DIFFERENT manufactures from DIFFERENT countries of origin to disprove MY saying the SBC is the greatest...you have already lost the argument.

 

Yes...what about the Hemi?

The Hellcat or Demon engine?

Yes...what about the Voodo or 6.2 liter AMG motor?

Or the 3.9 liter Ferrari V8?

Or the 4.0 liter BMW motor?

YOU pick just one of those and talk to me about it...

I gave you MULTIPLE angles on MULTIPLE posts backing up MY view of the SBC being the greatest...YOU do the same...

Just pick ANY V8 modern in production NOW and go for it!!!

Just ONE motor....

You see...the LS is also a FAMILY of engines doing a PLETHORA of things...the BLOCK stays the same...the cams, the cylinder heads and the materials that make up the block differ....

YOU have a tall order to fill and THAT is why YOU are raging...

Like I said...pick just ONE motor and convince me why that ONE motor is THE greatest...

 

 

 

You see, to me, this is part of the problem here.

 

Are we discussing an entire family of V8's, or ONE V8. A family is LS engines. A family is B Series engines. An ENGINE is an LS2. Or a B18C. 

 

And if we are talking entire families- MB's M156/159 powered everything from GT Roadsters, to full-size lux sedans, to full on sport coupes. That's a pretty broad spectrum. Dare I say.....nearly as broad as GM's V8. Which only goes in trucks, 2 sedans, and 2 sport coupes. 

 

The M156 makes great low end torque, unlike some other DOHC engines, and yet still revs out and makes great power even north of 7,000 rpm in some applications. Not to mention it has made over 600 hp in some applications and that's in N/A form. 

 

Even if we were to look at Ferrari's V8, some iteration of it has been used in everything from Maserati sedans, to ultra limited edition Alfa Romeos, to Ferrari supercars, nearly every one of each is generally accepted to be the best of it's class, in very large part due to their engine.

 

 

[ccap41]

3 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

YOU have failed to talk to me about how 1 motor...1 motor  not...many motors could challenge MY saying the SBC is the greatest...

Fine, The AMG 6.2 sounds like absolute heaven and its characteristics are actually similar to the Chevy 6.2 but it sounds better to me. 

Personally, the ability to be in a truck or a police car means less than nothing when talking about the "best" V8. Cool, they're made for sh!tty vehicles where people don't care what's under the hood or what the drive wheels probable are, awesome. BUT THE ENGINE IS THE BEST IN THE WORLD!!! 

Give me the high performance end of the spectrum. 

You keep speaking LS but now it must be a production vehicles' engine? Isn't that just left for the 5.3? Ever talk to anybody who's driven the 5.3? I know two chevy guys and one neutral guy who say it's a dud. One bought an older 6.0, one got a 3.5EB F150, and the neutral guy ended up with a car. 

13 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

YOU have a tall order to fill and THAT is why YOU are raging...

Classic Olds... tells somebody else they're raging while posting a half of a page. 

I'm not even going to try and convince you why I think the AMG 6.2 is "better" and I already explained why. If you'd like me to highlight it for you, let me know. 

[oldshurst442]

23 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

Whatever it may be...The pushrod Chevy small block is THE greatest V8 of our times

 

19 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

About the SBC NOT being the best V8 engine.

@Frisky Dingo

 To be fair....I did ALWAYS mention the SBC in ALL of my posts...

Yes...that includes ALL LS and now LT variants...

And why shouldnt I?

The way GM and Chevy deliver us the SBC, the way cylinder heads and cams interchange into ALL family lineages MOST of the time...I dont see why I would NOT include ALL family variants...

Again...its a testament to how much THOUGHT has gone to engineering the SBC...

 

 

Edited December 28, 2017 by oldshurst442