Random Thoughts Thread

[Drew Dowdell]

14 hours ago, balthazar said:

I'm wiling to roll up my sleeves w U on this one, Bill.
Define for me, if you will, specifically how Cadillac is chasing the Germans. What is it the Germans own that is proprietary?

To me, chasing on road ultimate performance rather than comfort. 

[A Horse With No Name]

14 hours ago, balthazar said:

I'm wiling to roll up my sleeves w U on this one, Bill.
Define for me, if you will, specifically how Cadillac is chasing the Germans. What is it the Germans own that is proprietary?

I am on Balthazar's side in this...and I really dislike how the new Lincolns came out.

[ccap41]

The ATS was almost the exact measurements of the 3 Series when it came out. If I'm not wrong, it was within a half inch on every exterior dimension. 

"The ATS was presented as a true BMW 3 Series competitor, and was benchmarked against what Cadillac says is the best 3 Series ever, the E46. "

If that isn't them bench marking the Germans...then I don't know what is.

[ccap41]

I saw this random EV bus downtown today. Hopefully one of the local fleets is replacing theirs with them.  Something Mr @dfelt would like to see and NOT HEAR because near silent. 

[Drew Dowdell]

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

I saw this random EV bus downtown today. Hopefully one of the local fleets is replacing theirs with them.  Something Mr @dfelt would like to see and NOT HEAR because near silent. 

We have hybrid busses here in Pittsburgh. Not completely silent, but there is a substantial difference in the amount of noise they make.... they can also creep up on you if you've got headphones in because they can be as quiet as a gasoline car at slow speeds. 

The drivers here however, drive them like they're on the 'Ring

[balthazar]

10 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

To me, chasing on road ultimate performance rather than comfort. 

Are the 2 mutually exclusive?
Can 'we' live with a CTS that's eminently comfortable AND a CTS-V that is less so but is leading edge in performance?

[balthazar]

10 hours ago, ccap41 said:

The ATS was almost the exact measurements of the 3 Series when it came out. If I'm not wrong, it was within a half inch on every exterior dimension. "The ATS was presented as a true BMW 3 Series competitor, and was benchmarked against what Cadillac says is the best 3 Series ever, the E46. "

If that isn't them bench marking the Germans...then I don't know what is.

So IYO- building a competitor that mirrors the size class dimensions means Cadillac is "copying" BMW? Is everyone else building a car to that close dimensionally also 'copying', and who presented those dimensions first?

 

[Drew Dowdell]

8 hours ago, balthazar said:

Are the 2 mutually exclusive?
Can 'we' live with a CTS that's eminently comfortable AND a CTS-V that is less so but is leading edge in performance?

But that's not what Cadillac is doing. Is the CTS comfortable by current standards? Sure, it's the same as a BMW or Audi with firm suspension and firmer seats.

I don't expect a boaty ride like my Olds, but something akin to the more cloud-like ride of the S80 with air suspension would be good.

And plush seats rather than the park benches that all cars seem to come with these days

[Cmicasa the Great]

On 9/12/2017 at 6:43 PM, ocnblu said:

Cadillac disappoints me.  They have some of the richest luxury heritage in the world.  Yet they continue to disrespect that heritage by chasing the likes of Mercedes-Benz and BMW.  It just.does.not.work.

I prefer Lincoln's take on American luxury, if not their lame naming scheme.  They are not apologizing for being true to their homeland.

I would love nothing more for Cadillac to return home.  These articles pointing out the "problem" of the Escalade not "fitting in" with the rest of the lineup really get on my nerves, when it is the only Cadillac that actually adheres to what made them great in the first place.

 

On 9/12/2017 at 7:27 PM, Drew Dowdell said:

Indeed. At least the Escalade stays true to it's roots. I will say that the CT6 is probably an excellent blend of America and Euro. The CTS and ATS are too Euro even for my tastes.

 

On 9/12/2017 at 9:07 PM, balthazar said:

I'm wiling to roll up my sleeves w U on this one, Bill.
Define for me, if you will, specifically how Cadillac is chasing the Germans. What is it the Germans own that is proprietary?

Personally I a bit lost on some of the statements. I grew up with Cadillacs in the house hold.. my parents bought used as they could not afford new ones.. but they were usually only 3 years old when they did. My dad a staunch GM guy.. was usually into Chevy's, Buicks, and Olds.. but my mom, being the woman that she is.. wanted elegant.. thus her '76 Riviera got traded in for a '79 Eldo.. then an 84 Seville.. and then.. so on. Those cars while elegant and full of luxury for the day.. were never even remotely sporty. They were great in their expression of what luxury was for that time.. but one has to modernize to compete. BMW was the target for Gen Xers.. and Millenials.. but not desirable by Baby Boomers as they retired. They are a blend of Sport and Lux. Cadillac, if they still adhered to the old ways.. would still be seen as stodgy and old.. by X and Millennials. The issue here is that BBs are in their 70s now.. cars for them will not be the concern in 15 years. A brand cannot survive on dying or non-driving consumers. Cadillac started on this new venture back in 2003, essentially with the CTS. Some can argue that they started with the STS and ETC in '95, but I just don't see it as clearly defined considering the most sporty thing about them was that they boasted the then techno tour de force Northstar at 300HP.  With various tries.. and growth.. not failures.. because to change the way of business after 100 years.. rise, then fall.. then rise again.. innovation needs to happen. German vehicles were known as the Engineering giants in luxury. American vehicles were known for straight line, old school. Cadillac.. the premier luxury group in the United States had to be the one to step up.. and they have done a fine job. 

Fast forward to today.. I see the new line of products coming to emulate much of what was learned from the CT6 and Escala in terms of luxury. They will soften up the ride.. elongate the interior.. up the ante in luxury trim.. but still be bold while being some what conservative. The Cadillac that I own versus the three I owned before, simply put.. blows them away in every way. Not just performance but luxury. Yes... the Gen3 CTS-V rides more sporty than the Gen2s.. and my '05 STS. But the handling is next level. The only complaint I have of this generation CTS is that it only comes in one body style.. which makes zero sense considering that the competition comes in 4. 

BTW.. to the Lincoln comment. Lincoln is FAILING. Its no if ands or buts. 8708 sales last month with essentially 4 SUVs and a lower price versus Cadillac at 15,016 last month with essentially 2 SUVs, with the XT5 almost selling as many as the entire Lincoln line-up, cars included. Remember CUVs are the growth segment.. Lincoln has 4 vs Cadillac's 2. Both makers have 6 vehicles total. The Continental, cheaper, and more "traditional" was supposed to absolutely kill the CT6 hasn't lived up to the hype. That's with a same sized XTS, same priced on the lots with the new big Caddy also outselling the Continental, by 2:1. 

We can philosophize all we want.. but in truth.. the new buyers.. the modern buyers want Cadillacs over Lincolns ways of doing things. I don't see Cadillac doing anything but changing with the times. Their deficiencies lie in not having all the products that their competition has. Simple as that. I don't kno why it is even debated.. U can not beat a Mercedes, when they have products that compete with Chevy, Buick, and Cadillac under one roof, not to mention variants of those vehicles. Its not going to happen.. GET IT THRU YOUR HEADS!!!

 

[Cmicasa the Great]

21 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

To me, chasing on road ultimate performance rather than comfort. 

But that's not the case completely. The Escalade, XT5, XTS and CT6 are pretty comfy. The CTS has always been more euro flavored in driving dynamics. That was the point.. as the ATS is now as well. They are literally being replaced soon. Not to mention.. the market doesn't seem to want floaty couches of yester- year anymore. The easiest thing for Caddy to do to appease people such as U.. and people such as me.. is tune the Touring mode to be more soft, while the Sport mode stays the same. MRC is capable of such. So much so, in fact.. for me.. I usually leave my car in Sport mode. 

[ccap41]

11 hours ago, balthazar said:

So IYO- building a competitor that mirrors the size class dimensions means Cadillac is "copying" BMW? Is everyone else building a car to that close dimensionally also 'copying', and who presented those dimensions first?

 

Yes, its clearly what they were aiming for. If you're open about targeting a specific car then yes, you're not doing your own thing. You're trying to follow/beat somebody else's creation. That's not original at all. 

[Robert Hall]

24 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Yes, its clearly what they were aiming for. If you're open about targeting a specific car then yes, you're not doing your own thing. You're trying to follow/beat somebody else's creation. That's not original at all. 

Follow the leader..standard business practice/product strategy for big, established companies.   Original was doing something like the Model S.   Too radical of a departure from the norm. 

[ccap41]

Yep, follow the leader. 

Lincoln has attempted to set their own pace with the Continental. That's no sport sedan. We'll see how that fairs down the road. 

[Robert Hall]

2 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Yep, follow the leader. 

Lincoln has attempted to set their own pace with the Continental. That's no sport sedan. We'll see how that fairs down the road. 

I like the direction Lincoln is going...the market is big enough that there is room for comfort-oriented luxury cars as well as performance-oriented luxury cars, IMO...Lexus seems to try and play both directions, and Cadillac does to a degree.  

Edited September 14, 2017 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[Drew Dowdell]

3 hours ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

But that's not the case completely. The Escalade, XT5, XTS and CT6 are pretty comfy. The CTS has always been more euro flavored in driving dynamics. That was the point.. as the ATS is now as well. They are literally being replaced soon. Not to mention.. the market doesn't seem to want floaty couches of yester- year anymore. The easiest thing for Caddy to do to appease people such as U.. and people such as me.. is tune the Touring mode to be more soft, while the Sport mode stays the same. MRC is capable of such. So much so, in fact.. for me.. I usually leave my car in Sport mode. 

Volvo is doing quite well with their latest floating couches.

But Cadillac is by far in the best position to offer both in a single vehicle.  With magnetic ride control that they already have and air springs they could easily add as an option.... there could be a dial for "Serenity", "Touring", or "Sport".  click it to whichever you prefer.  

[Cmicasa the Great]

2 hours ago, ccap41 said:

Yes, its clearly what they were aiming for. If you're open about targeting a specific car then yes, you're not doing your own thing. You're trying to follow/beat somebody else's creation. That's not original at all. 

U kno I will never give U credit for being the brightest bulb in the pack.. and nothin here is gonna change that.

Similar dimensions DO NOT MAKE A COPY. The ATS is better than the 3Series hands down.. at least the mission the 3Series set out to be before it started copying the philosophy of LEXUS..soft sport/lux. The only real advantage the current 3Series has over an ATS is that it has a 1inch larger backseat.. something that apparently an ENTHUSIASTS such as yourself requires because hauling around your punk ass friends  in the backseat is fun.

The part I put in bold actually means that Cadillac is not copying.. but taking the creation to a higher, better level..aka IMPROVING. By your rationale every CUV that has hit the market with similar size to the Benz ML is a copy. The Camaro is a copy of the Mustang. The Lincoln brand is a copy of Cadillac. Lexus is a copy of Buick... I could go on.

[Cmicasa the Great]

6 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Volvo is doing quite well with their latest floating couches.

But Cadillac is by far in the best position to offer both in a single vehicle.  With magnetic ride control that they already have and air springs they could easily add as an option.... there could be a dial for "Serenity", "Touring", or "Sport".  click it to whichever you prefer.  

Volvo like Suburu operates quite nicely on niche customers. The two are more like APPLE than any other maker IMO. Globally Volvo is also like other Euro makers in that they have plenty of models that don't touch luxury.. they are more of a BUICK/GMCDenali competitor if we were using GM's brands. 

Yes.. Cadillac has technology that allows it to be BOTH. I can attest to the fact that MRC is both.. and the new generation, from what I am hearing is capable of even more.

[ccap41]

@Cubical-aka-Moltar I completely agree. The competition is too tight with all of the sport sedans right now that it would be tough to even crack the segment so what else do you do? Make your own. And this isn't even making a segment it's bringing back what they used to be. 

[ccap41]

10 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

U kno I will never give U credit for being the brightest bulb in the pack.. and nothin here is gonna change that.

Similar dimensions DO NOT MAKE A COPY. The ATS is better than the 3Series hands down.. at least the mission the 3Series set out to be before it started copying the philosophy of LEXUS..soft sport/lux. The only real advantage the current 3Series has over an ATS is that it has a 1inch larger backseat.. something that apparently an ENTHUSIASTS such as yourself requires because hauling around your punk ass friends  in the backseat is fun.

The part I put in bold actually means that Cadillac is not copying.. but taking the creation to a higher, better level..aka IMPROVING. By your rationale every CUV that has hit the market with similar size to the Benz ML is a copy. The Camaro is a copy of the Mustang. The Lincoln brand is a copy of Cadillac. Lexus is a copy of Buick... I could go on.

  

They were open about making a 3 Series w/ a Cadillac badge on it. 

It's not the same when you're entering a market and publicly bench marking something and you build said vehicle within an inch everywhere. Mustang and Camaro were never THAT physically close to each other. 

Look at you taking shots at somebody who WANTS an ATS. Sorry brochacho, some ppl don't think Cadillac(or any company) is perfect. 

Lincoln brand is copying Cadillac brand? In what way?!? Cadillac builds sports sedans and Lincoln...doesn't. 

 

[Robert Hall]

24 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Volvo is doing quite well with their latest floating couches.

But Cadillac is by far in the best position to offer both in a single vehicle.  With magnetic ride control that they already have and air springs they could easily add as an option.... there could be a dial for "Serenity", "Touring", or "Sport".  click it to whichever you prefer.  

I really like what Volvo is doing..  love their interiors.   Kind of like where Genesis is going also.  

[ccap41]

"We appreciate why BMW's 3 Series sedans have been popular for so long. Apparently Cadillac has a similar appreciation, as its engineers make no bones about using the BMW sedan as the benchmark for their new ATS."

"How closely did Cadillac emulate BMW? The 3 Series and ATS are within an inch of each other in exterior dimensions except for the BMW's 1.3-in. longer wheelbase."

"Cadillac emulated the 3 Series' packaging, but might have been better off its back seat were a bit more spacious. Set the four seats for 6-foot-tall folks and the ATS is tight in back. Yes, there are tens of thousands of 3 Series sold that prove this may not actually be a problem, but another inch of rear seat legroom would have been nice in the ATS."

"The fun part is the Caddy/BMW comparo. Start with both company's 2.0-liter dohc direct-injected fours: Cadillac's puts out 272 bhp, while the BMW generates 240 bhp. Both engines produce 260 lb.-ft. of torque. "

"Is the new Cadillac ATS as good as a BMW 3 Series? Remember "the same, only different?" The pair does share quite a bit—in everything from overall size and drivetrains to intent. They are remarkably close."

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/first-drives/reviews/a18340/2013-cadillac-ats-1/

 

7 minutes ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

I really like what Volvo is doing..  love their interiors.   Kind of like where Genesis is going also.  

Heck, I think the exteriors look great on their new stuff as well. 

[Drew Dowdell]

1 minute ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Volvo like Suburu operates quite nicely on niche customers. The two are more like APPLE than any other maker IMO. Globally Volvo is also like other Euro makers in that they have plenty of models that don't touch luxury.. they are more of a BUICK/GMCDenali competitor if we were using GM's brands. 

Yes.. Cadillac has technology that allows it to be BOTH. I can attest to the fact that MRC is both.. and the new generation, from what I am hearing is capable of even more.

Those niches are growing rapidly. Subaru is on pace to outsell all of Mazda and VW combined this year and Subaru only has 7 models (less if you don't count Outback as a separate model from Legacy).   They outsold all of Ford's car lineup.  Subaru's biggest concern is matching manufacturing capacity to meet growth.  With results like that, how much longer can we call Subaru a niche market vehicle?

Volvo is in a similar growth trajectory. They've outsold Lincoln YTD, they've outsold Jaguar/Land Rover YTD, they're neck and neck with Infiniti YTD.  The new XC60 just hit the showrooms, a new S60 is coming, plus a smaller crossover I think, @William Maley will correct me as I'm out of the loop, the XC40.  Acura, Audi, and Buick need to be looking in their rearview mirrors.  Even if Volvo is niche today, they won't be niche for long. 

[Drew Dowdell]

Cadillac benchmarked the 3-series period.  I was at the reveal for the ATS. They benchmarked BMW and then did the performance one better specifically to make a point that they were capable of it.   And the result of that is that today, no one argues which entry to mid-lux compact handles better, Cadillac or BMW, it's largely a wash there... people are relegated to arguing about infotainment systems and glovebox linings.  The point is that BMW and Cadillac can now be credibly mentioned in the same sentence and cross-shopped.

That was then, this is now.

These days, and this is just my impression, Cadillac is chasing the market in a different way.  I think they realized with the most recent CTS that no matter how great it is... no matter how strong the halo of the V-Series, people like SMK will turn their nose up at it and walk away since it doesn't have a 3-point star.  The CT6 is the first step in that direction of going back to offering tweeners. The CTS, CT6, and XTS are all overlapping each other in the showroom right now, and that is one of the biggest things holding the CT6 back in my opinion, as the CT6 is clearly the superior vehicle of the 3. That is a discrepancy that JDN is working to correct.  Cadillac rightly did not chase the X3 and has been rewarded with second best sales in that class, right after the sales king RX.  Cadillac does need more crossovers, but they should not chase the germans car for car.  The Escalade doesn't need to change the formula, but it does need a substantial update before the Navigator comes to eat its lunch.... and it will eat the Escalade's lunch.  You guys know how much of a fan of the Escalade I am and I'd probably still go with the new Navigator at this point.  If Cadillac doesn't knock it out of the park with an interior to match or beat the Navigator, the Escalade is toast and will become the alsoran that the Navigator has been these last 10 years.  In that regard, the Navigator is the new benchmark of the segment.... not the GLS, not the Range Rover, not that hideous new X7 concept.  Cadillac needs to look at their friends in Dearborn because they have a huge hit coming. 

[Cmicasa the Great]

34 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Those niches are growing rapidly. Subaru is on pace to outsell all of Mazda and VW combined this year and Subaru only has 7 models (less if you don't count Outback as a separate model from Legacy).   They outsold all of Ford's car lineup.  Subaru's biggest concern is matching manufacturing capacity to meet growth.  With results like that, how much longer can we call Subaru a niche market vehicle?

Volvo is in a similar growth trajectory. They've outsold Lincoln YTD, they've outsold Jaguar/Land Rover YTD, they're neck and neck with Infiniti YTD.  The new XC60 just hit the showrooms, a new S60 is coming, plus a smaller crossover I think, @William Maley will correct me as I'm out of the loop, the XC40.  Acura, Audi, and Buick need to be looking in their rearview mirrors.  Even if Volvo is niche today, they won't be niche for long. 

Not saying they are.. but point was they play to a certain demo.. I have long said that Buick should watch out for Volvo.. and actually Suburu as well. The Saab line should have been completely given to Buick after the BK.. the 9-4x should have been a alternative to the SRX from Buick tho. Hell when U look at Buick now they have the Regal which was a 9-3 Platform mate.. the TourX with reminds me a great deal of the SportCombi.. the LaX, which was a platform mate to the 9-5.. and for Subie.. they have GMC, which honestly.. GM should just integrate in sales marketing like LR/Jag does.

[Cmicasa the Great]

55 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

  

They were open about making a 3 Series w/ a Cadillac badge on it. 

It's not the same when you're entering a market and publicly bench marking something and you build said vehicle within an inch everywhere. Mustang and Camaro were never THAT physically close to each other. 

Look at you taking shots at somebody who WANTS an ATS. Sorry brochacho, some ppl don't think Cadillac(or any company) is perfect. 

Lincoln brand is copying Cadillac brand? In what way?!? Cadillac builds sports sedans and Lincoln...doesn't. 

 

Cadillac never said they were copying BMW. But then.. even if they did they created a BETTER 3series in the spirit of the original than did BMW.

And I stand CORRECT again.. about your buffoonery.  Go back and read what I said.. "BY YOUR RATIONALE.." Ironically the Cadillac/Lincoln comment is hilarious since technically.. Lincoln was a copy of Cadillac after Billy Durant and Cadillac's founder Henry Leland parted ways.. causing Leland to go to Henry Ford and create Lincoln. 

[Cmicasa the Great]

33 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Cadillac benchmarked the 3-series period.  I was at the reveal for the ATS. They benchmarked BMW and then did the performance one better specifically to make a point that they were capable of it.   And the result of that is that today, no one argues which entry to mid-lux compact handles better, Cadillac or BMW, it's largely a wash there... people are relegated to arguing about infotainment systems and glovebox linings.  The point is that BMW and Cadillac can now be credibly mentioned in the same sentence and cross-shopped.

That was then, this is now.

These days, and this is just my impression, Cadillac is chasing the market in a different way.  I think they realized with the most recent CTS that no matter how great it is... no matter how strong the halo of the V-Series, people like SMK will turn their nose up at it and walk away since it doesn't have a 3-point star.  The CT6 is the first step in that direction of going back to offering tweeners. The CTS, CT6, and XTS are all overlapping each other in the showroom right now, and that is one of the biggest things holding the CT6 back in my opinion, as the CT6 is clearly the superior vehicle of the 3. That is a discrepancy that JDN is working to correct.  Cadillac rightly did not chase the X3 and has been rewarded with second best sales in that class, right after the sales king RX.  Cadillac does need more crossovers, but they should not chase the germans car for car.  The Escalade doesn't need to change the formula, but it does need a substantial update before the Navigator comes to eat its lunch.... and it will eat the Escalade's lunch.  You guys know how much of a fan of the Escalade I am and I'd probably still go with the new Navigator at this point.  If Cadillac doesn't knock it out of the park with an interior to match or beat the Navigator, the Escalade is toast and will become the alsoran that the Navigator has been these last 10 years.  In that regard, the Navigator is the new benchmark of the segment.... not the GLS, not the Range Rover, not that hideous new X7 concept.  Cadillac needs to look at their friends in Dearborn because they have a huge hit coming. 

I up your post because their is some validity to it.. but I would say that Cadillac is very capable of doing exactly what is necessary to beat the Navigator when it hits for real. Next Escalade is due next year for '19. Everything I have seen suggest that Cadillac will up the interiors.. up the lux.. and up the HP.. which is really the only thing I see as a superior trait of the brand new Navigator. Ford literally copied the looks of the Escalade/Denali and put its grille and badge on it.. so looks are not superior. 

[William Maley]

53 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Those niches are growing rapidly. Subaru is on pace to outsell all of Mazda and VW combined this year and Subaru only has 7 models (less if you don't count Outback as a separate model from Legacy).   They outsold all of Ford's car lineup.  Subaru's biggest concern is matching manufacturing capacity to meet growth.  With results like that, how much longer can we call Subaru a niche market vehicle?

Volvo is in a similar growth trajectory. They've outsold Lincoln YTD, they've outsold Jaguar/Land Rover YTD, they're neck and neck with Infiniti YTD.  The new XC60 just hit the showrooms, a new S60 is coming, plus a smaller crossover I think, @William Maley will correct me as I'm out of the loop, the XC40.  Acura, Audi, and Buick need to be looking in their rearview mirrors.  Even if Volvo is niche today, they won't be niche for long. 

Yes, there is an XC40 coming. It will possibly debut later this month according to a news story that I'm reading as I type this.

Autocar: Volvo XC40 Previewed in New Video

[cp-the-nerd]

2 hours ago, ccap41 said:

Yep, follow the leader. 

Lincoln has attempted to set their own pace with the Continental. That's no sport sedan. We'll see how that fairs down the road. 

It's a bit disingenuous to lambaste Cadillac for "following the leader" and praise the Lincoln Continental in the same breath. Besides the widely accepted notion that the Continental is one of the most derivative designs in the luxury market, it's a car built entirely within the confines of what the "One Ford" strategy had available. Everyone knows this. It's on an inferior FWD-based transverse platform among longitudinal-engine luxury cars.

They can have credit for making a solid product that appears to be greater than the sum of its humble parts, but in no way are they a pioneering brand based on that product.

[ccap41]

11 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Cadillac never said they were copying BMW. But then.. even if they did they created a BETTER 3series in the spirit of the original than did BMW.

But they didn't create a better product. They created something equally as good. Both have highs and both have lows but, If I'm not wrong, most comparisons was almost a coin flip as to which was better. Caddy had the chassis while the BMW had the engines. 

 

13 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

BY YOUR RATIONALE..

My rationale had nothing to do with Lincoln. it was solely the BMW 3 being copied by Cadillac. 

What did Lincoln make that was within an inch of every exterior measurement of Cadillac while also saying "we're bench marking X Lincoln" ? 

1 minute ago, cp-the-nerd said:

It's a bit disingenuous to lambaste Cadillac for "following the leader" and praise the Lincoln Continental in the same breath. Besides the widely accepted notion that the Continental is one of the most derivative designs in the luxury market, it's a car built entirely within the confines of what the "One Ford" strategy had available. Everyone knows this. It's on an inferior FWD-based transverse platform among longitudinal-engine luxury cars.

They can have credit for making a solid product that appears to be greater than the sum of its humble parts, but in no way are they a pioneering brand based on that product.

All of your excuses on why the Continental SHOULDN'T be a good car has nothing to do with why it IS a good car. While it isn't some ground breaking technological advancement(although those seats are pretty damn nifty) they went and did their own thing and said from the beginning what the goal of the car was, and it wasn't to be like another car. 

Outside of enthusiasts, nobody gives a fck what wheels drive your car. It isn't a sports sedan so why does it matter if it is FWD based or RWD based? I'd bet half of the buyers in this large, luxury car segment don't know if their luxury car is FWD or RWD based, they just get AWD if they want it. 

[ccap41]

12 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Cadillac will up the interiors

I thought you already said they're top notch and that there's nothing else that could be done to improve them anyway? 

[Cmicasa the Great]

22 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

I thought you already said they're top notch and that there's nothing else that could be done to improve them anyway? 

Never said anything like that. Topnotch today doesn't meant topnotch tomorrow 

[cp-the-nerd]

37 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

All of your excuses on why the Continental SHOULDN'T be a good car has nothing to do with why it IS a good car. While it isn't some ground breaking technological advancement(although those seats are pretty damn nifty) they went and did their own thing and said from the beginning what the goal of the car was, and it wasn't to be like another car. 

Outside of enthusiasts, nobody gives a fck what wheels drive your car. It isn't a sports sedan so why does it matter if it is FWD based or RWD based? I'd bet half of the buyers in this large, luxury car segment don't know if their luxury car is FWD or RWD based, they just get AWD if they want it. 

That's such a cop out argument. You're implying Lincoln *could have* built a sport sedan Continental but chose not to. No, they went the only direction they had available. It was either build a cushy, flashy Continental with a focus on creature comforts or drop the large luxury segment.

And again, you don't get trailblazing credit when you design a very derivative-looking car.

I said it was a good product for what it is. I just find it to still be something of a placeholder while we wait years for Lincoln's real comeback cars.

Edited September 14, 2017 by cp-the-nerd

[G. David Felt]

40 minutes ago, cp-the-nerd said:

 It's on an inferior FWD-based transverse platform among longitudinal-engine luxury cars.

I would not totally agree with you on this, look at Audi and how EVERYTHING is based on a FWD platform with AWD option and it has not hurt them.

My big issue with the Continental is for such a large supposed to be Luxury car, the interior space SUCKS. Especially back seat as there is NO SPACE for big guys. My personal test is set the front seat for myself to be comfy and then get in behind the seat and i have to open my legs to push up on the sides of the front seat and bend my neck and fold up as there is no head room or legroom.

[balthazar]

A brand cannot survive on dying or non-driving consumers.

We can dispense with this sentiment- I've been reading this as far back as 30 years ago. BBs are also the demographic buying Mercedes. It's not generational, its the demographic.

As far as the ATS being a better 3-series.... if BMW improves the 3-series to outperform the ATS, are they then benchmarking/copying Cadillac?

[cp-the-nerd]

9 minutes ago, dfelt said:

I would not totally agree with you on this, look at Audi and how EVERYTHING is based on a FWD platform with AWD option and it has not hurt them.

My big issue with the Continental is for such a large supposed to be Luxury car, the interior space SUCKS. Especially back seat as there is NO SPACE for big guys. My personal test is set the front seat for myself to be comfy and then get in behind the seat and i have to open my legs to push up on the sides of the front seat and bend my neck and fold up as there is no head room or legroom.

Notice I said inferior FWD-based *transverse* platform. I did not simply say it's FWD-based and inherently inferior, which is how you responded to it. Audi sedans have longitudinally arranged engines and are dynamically superior to anything Lincoln builds. The Continental is no engineering marvel. It's overweight and drives reasonably well in spite of its shortcomings.

[ccap41]

14 minutes ago, cp-the-nerd said:

Notice I said inferior FWD-based *transverse* platform. I did not simply say it's FWD-based and inherently inferior, which is how you responded to it. Audi sedans have longitudinally arranged engines and are dynamically superior to anything Lincoln builds. The Continental is no engineering marvel. It's overweight and drives reasonably well in spite of its shortcomings.

Who cares though? They made it public that they aren't chasing "dynamic" cars so be it transverse or longitudinally. Why fork out the cash for a different chassis for something so minute to their target audience? If they were pretending to be a sports sedan, you'd be spot on and I'd agree 100%. 

What are its shortcomings? It isn't a sport sedan(and they're not afraid to hide it)? lol 

[ccap41]

50 minutes ago, dfelt said:

My big issue with the Continental is for such a large supposed to be Luxury car, the interior space SUCKS. Especially back seat as there is NO SPACE for big guys. My personal test is set the front seat for myself to be comfy and then get in behind the seat and i have to open my legs to push up on the sides of the front seat and bend my neck and fold up as there is no head room or legroom.

Sometimes I think you just hate vehicles to hate them because the legroom in a Continental is larger than an S Class.. You see professional athletes 7ft tall in S Classes.

S Class Front Legroom: 41.4 inches

Rear Legroom: 34.1 inches

Continental Front Legroom: 44.4 inches

Rear Legroom: 41.3 inches

If you don't like the Continental, that's totally cool. Just use something that makes more sense...lol 

[ccap41]

1 hour ago, cp-the-nerd said:

That's such a cop out argument. You're implying Lincoln *could have* built a sport sedan Continental but chose not to. No, they went the only direction they had available. It was either build a cushy, flashy Continental with a focus on creature comforts or drop the large luxury segment.

And again, you don't get trailblazing credit when you design a very derivative-looking car.

I said it was a good product for what it is. I just find it to still be something of a placeholder while we wait years for Lincoln's real comeback cars.

I'm not implying they could have at all. They just don't give a $h! to do that. What benefit would they have gotten by trying to make a sport sedan and then being one of like 10 entrants or go the route they did and they're more like 1 of 5. But like you said, they don't even have something to make as a sport sedan so what good would it have done them to hold onto their other $h! for X more years until they finish their D4 platform(or whatever the heck it's called)? 

Everything is kind of a placeholder until the next, better product comes down the line.. Who knows if Lincoln will ever make real "comeback cars". I think Ford/Lincoln are too big of pansies to allow them to really go nuts. 

[cp-the-nerd]

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

Who cares though? They made it public that they aren't chasing "dynamic" cars so be it transverse or longitudinally. Why fork out the cash for a different chassis for something so minute to their target audience? If they were pretending to be a sports sedan, you'd be spot on and I'd agree 100%. 

What are its shortcomings? It isn't a sport sedan(and they're not afraid to hide it)? lol 

Shortcomings: it's well over two tons and doesn't have chassis tech to hide it, it only has 6 forward gears, and doesn't have the engineering to put turbo V6 power down without some torque steer despite the AWD. Basically the same shortcomings as a 5-year-old XTS V-Sport, but one that simply goes a step further in luxury. If you're shopping in the $50-70k range, these things do matter when you test drive competitors and see what bespoke luxury engineering has to offer.

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

I'm not implying they could have at all. They just don't give a $h! to do that. What benefit would they have gotten by trying to make a sport sedan and then being one of like 10 entrants or go the route they did and they're more like 1 of 5. But like you said, they don't even have something to make as a sport sedan so what good would it have done them to hold onto their other $h! for X more years until they finish their D4 platform(or whatever the heck it's called)? 

Everything is kind of a placeholder until the next, better product comes down the line.. Who knows if Lincoln will ever make real "comeback cars". I think Ford/Lincoln are too big of pansies to allow them to really go nuts. 

You seem to think that Lincoln is the only company with a comfortable luxury barge and that it's not losing anything to accomplish this with a largely mass market FWD/AWD powertrain. There are $30k midsize cars with better transmissions.

Again, it's a nice car, the best Lincoln's had to offer in a long time. Don't oversell it with nonsense about "going their own way."

Edited September 14, 2017 by cp-the-nerd

[ccap41]

13 minutes ago, cp-the-nerd said:

Shortcomings: it's well over two tons and doesn't have chassis tech to hide it, it only has 6 forward gears, and doesn't have the engineering to put turbo V6 power down without some torque steer despite the AWD. Basically the same shortcomings as a 5-year-old XTS V-Sport, but one that simply goes a step further in luxury. If you're shopping in the $50-70k range, these things do matter when you test drive competitors and see what bespoke luxury engineering has to offer.

You seem to think that Lincoln is the only company with a comfortable luxury barge and that it's not losing anything to accomplish this with a largely mass market FWD/AWD powertrain. There are $30k midsize cars with better transmissions.

Again, it's a nice car, the best Lincoln's had to offer in a long time. Don't oversell it with nonsense about "going their own way." <-

1 of 5(as a random estimate) was not in an way insinuating that they are the only ones doing it. 

I've gotten on them as well for using the wrong transmission. I don't know how but they needed to launch that with the 9spd. I know it wasn't really possible with how things times out but they should have pushed this back or something. That should have been a "Needs to get finished" for it to launch. 

I will never understand why people care about what a vehicle weighs IF it does its intended goal. Luxury car weighs too much, still does what it needs to accomplish. 

 

[G. David Felt]

3 hours ago, ccap41 said:

Sometimes I think you just hate vehicles to hate them because the legroom in a Continental is larger than an S Class.. You see professional athletes 7ft tall in S Classes.

S Class Front Legroom: 41.4 inches

Rear Legroom: 34.1 inches

Continental Front Legroom: 44.4 inches

Rear Legroom: 41.3 inches

If you don't like the Continental, that's totally cool. Just use something that makes more sense...lol 

Howdy CCAP41, Actually I love the looks of the car, I was very excited as I grew up with Continentals from the late 70's and 80's so seeing a new one had me all set for potentially owning one myself. I have brought this up before that where each manufacture measures to state their hip room, leg room, head room seems to be a non standard that I find very frustrating. 

I have a 40 inch inseam, that means I am more legs than body. As such once I get a front seat set for me and then get out to test the back seat that rear leg room is no where what they state and this is one of my pet peeves. I swear many auto makers measure the front leg room with the seat all the way back then move that seat all the way forward and measure the back seat, like EPA testing that Shows big differences between real world driving and EPA testing for MPG, I find leg room to be a AUTO INDUSTRY BIG LIE!

Love the look and design of the Continental, but the inside is a disappointment to me as it is NOT for a family of big people. I am 6'6" tall, my oldest sister is 6' tall and we cover the shortest to tallest in our family, so when it comes to testing a car, SUV, Truck, I have to make sure I can always sit behind myself and then I know anyone can sit comfy in the car.

No Hate to Hate, Only Auto love but with the real facts that some car's are not made with the true leg, hip, body, head room they state.

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

I will never understand why people care about what a vehicle weighs IF it does its intended goal. Luxury car weighs too much, still does what it needs to accomplish. 

This is very true, people in Tree Hugging Green PNW have always gotten on my about driving full size lifted SUV's and I say so what. I do NOT care about MPG as much as safety and room. After having a suburban rear end my Oldsmobile rental Delta 98 that was totaled and only bent bumper on the Suburban, I would rather wrap my family and friends in steel and protect them over MPG. 

Yes I acknowledge that I can afford to buy the gas for poor MPG auto's, but I agree with you that the CHOICE of Auto I pick meets my needs and desires.

Valid Point here.

[Drew Dowdell]

I watch very little TV. I only have cable because Albert watches it sometimes.

I was scrolling through the on screen guide this evening...... what utter crap is on TV these days?!  I seriously pay for this?

[A Horse With No Name]

12 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I watch very little TV. I only have cable because Albert watches it sometimes.

I was scrolling through the on screen guide this evening...... what utter crap is on TV these days?!  I seriously pay for this?

I have not watched television on a regular basis since the 1970s...

[balthazar]

I laugh when 'device' commercials talk about 'catch your favor shows anytime, anywhere' when there's nothing broadcast worth bothering with.
Days go by without me watching. I have taken in the first 2 episodes of AHS- but if it doesn't hold my interest, I'll bail.

[Drew Dowdell]

20 minutes ago, balthazar said:

I laugh when 'device' commercials talk about 'catch your favor shows anytime, anywhere' when there's nothing broadcast worth bothering with.
Days go by without me watching. I have taken in the first 2 episodes of AHS- but if it doesn't hold my interest, I'll bail.

The only series I even watch are on Netflix.  Most of them older series, some of them current. I love House of Cards and The Crown is pretty good too. 

[Robert Hall]

I'm a few months into truly cord cutting, no cable or satellite since leaving Az in June. So far, so good.  I have an Amazon Fire TV stick w/ Amazon, Hulu, Acorn, Netflix, Sling and network apps. About the only live TV I watch are NFL games and motorsports.  Stream a lot of tv shows, mostly British crime like Unforgotten, Broadchurch, Hinterland, Endeavour (excellent Inspector Morse prequel) etc.  For American, I've enjoyed catching up on Silicon Valley, Bosch and Better Call Saul.  

Edited September 15, 2017 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[Cmicasa the Great]

18 hours ago, ccap41 said:

But they didn't create a better product. They created something equally as good. Both have highs and both have lows but, If I'm not wrong, most comparisons was almost a coin flip as to which was better. Caddy had the chassis while the BMW had the engines. 

 

My rationale had nothing to do with Lincoln. it was solely the BMW 3 being copied by Cadillac. 

What did Lincoln make that was within an inch of every exterior measurement of Cadillac while also saying "we're bench marking X Lincoln" ? 

 

They did.. The ATS is a superior vehicle to the current 3Series in all ways I can see except the rear seat room which is irrelevant as fuck to me. The engines in the ATS,  are just as great as the ones in the BMW. Say what U want.. I've had the pleasure of all and really what blew me away was the FACT that the boys at Caddy.. with just one try in a same sized vehicle finally.. were able to not only match, but exceed the class leader in sales and originator of the segment. That's the part U fail to get thru your skull. Every other maker.. Benz.. Audi.. Lexus.. Infiniti tried and failed for several generations with SAME SIZED offerings. Cadillac.. the Sofa of luxury finally gets rid of the idea of a tweener CTS (which used to lose to the smaller cars all the time due to being the same size as their larger sisters.. 5series.. E-Class.. A6 GS) and brings a new competitor.. FOR THE FIRST TIME.. and a COIN TOSS is the only way they can come up with a winner.. against the segment creator.

The rationale is that U can seem to understand that I was using "Lincoln copying Caddy.. Camaro copying Mustang.. " as an example of the lunacy U kicked out concerning the ATS "copying" the 3Series.

LINCOLN COPIED CADILLAC WHEN IT WAS CREATED BY THE SAME FOUNDER OF BOTH BRANDS.

[balthazar]

2 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The only series I even watch are on Netflix.  Most of them older series, some of them current. I love House of Cards and The Crown is pretty good too. 

You already watch more TV than I do; there's no show I "love". Netflix I've also found to be relatively barren.

[G. David Felt]

9 hours ago, balthazar said:

You already watch more TV than I do; there's no show I "love". Netflix I've also found to be relatively barren.

Have to agree that there is not much on TV worth watching anymore. Those into reality TV need to get a life of their own, off the couch and get that body moving.

Movies are the only thing worth watching.

[Cmicasa the Great]

11 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The only series I even watch are on Netflix.  Most of them older series, some of them current. I love House of Cards and The Crown is pretty good too. 

Vikings, Last Kingdom, Ozark, Sense8, Travelers, Originals, Chewing Gum... check 'em out