Random Thoughts Thread

[G. David Felt]

Interesting reading, I do not agree with everything they have stated, but interesting reading none the less.

2022 GMC Sierra 2500 review: The right tool for the job - Roadshow (cnet.com)

OUCH, $20,000 premium for Plug-in Hybrid is stupid. If you Hybrid the various levels, you truly push this into Escalade territory. Probably be a bargain once you get it as a CPO.

2022 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4xe plug-in packs $20,000 premium over standard SUV - Roadshow (cnet.com)

Some very cool Smart Garage Door Openers.

Best smart garage door openers of 2022 - CNET

Mazda has returned to U.S. manufacturing with the CX50 Production in Huntsville Alabama.

2023 Mazda CX-50 production begins, marking company's return to US manufacturing - Roadshow (cnet.com)

[balthazar]

?  Ford charges you $19,500 for a mere 70 mile increase in range on the Lightning.

Welcome to the new OEM "gouging". 

[Robert Hall]

4 hours ago, David said:

 

2022 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4xe plug-in packs $20,000 premium over standard SUV - Roadshow (cnet.com)

 

Ouch...absurd upcharge..and the 4xe has a 4cyl...barf.

Edited January 28, 2022 by Robert Hall

[Drew Dowdell]

On 1/26/2022 at 10:37 AM, riviera74 said:

OK. Why are Camaro sales last year so low compared to the Challenger and the Mustang?

I'm pretty nimble for a 43 year old and even I have difficulty getting in and out of it... as would just about anyone over 5'2".

That said, once you're in, it is a very comfortable fit. I really love driving it because it is so light and nimble (relative to the other two) and even the V6 is more than plenty for most anyone. 

But the Challenger is easier to live with day to day than both of them. It's big, as easy to get in and out of as my '81 Toronado, and rides comfortably.  The V6 isn't really enough for its mass, but Dodge will happily sell you any of a selection of V8s. 

The Challenger is also the only one of the three to offer AWD. 

[Drew Dowdell]

21 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

Ouch...absurd upcharge..and the 4xe has a 4cyl...barf.

That's a pretty disingenuous comparison in that article. The 4xe is optioned similar a mid-level TrailHawk with a Hemi which is $61k.  It is nowhere near a base Laredo.  

[trinacriabob]

On 1/24/2022 at 6:53 PM, David said:

 

Attractive enough looking vehicle.

- - - - -

Random thought:

While my blood pressure is thankfully close to normal, I seem to get all these animal videos when I open my browser ... I'm guessing that watching dogs, cats, deer, and other critters being goofy sure seems to lower blood pressure.

Edited January 29, 2022 by trinacriabob

[trinacriabob]

On 1/26/2022 at 10:37 AM, riviera74 said:

OK. Why are Camaro sales last year so low compared to the Challenger and the Mustang?

If the three of them were sitting there without badging, and I had no handle on the Big 3's styling vocabulary and what their predecessors looked like, I would pick 1) Challenger, 2) Mustang, and 3) Camaro.

I've had to work hard at warming up to Chrysler products.  There's no denying that the Challenger is an attractive sports coupe from most vantage points.

It seems that most people can't specifically identify or verbalize what it is they like about a specific design, but they still know how to, and ultimately do, zero in on good design.

[Drew Dowdell]

Just preserving for posterity in case the post gets deleted...

 

Also... follow us on Facebook! Cheers and Gears | Facebook

[surreal1272]

3 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Just preserving for posterity in case the post gets deleted...

 

Also... follow us on Facebook! Cheers and Gears | Facebook

You know what they about one's head and rent free living right? Guess who is clearly living inside his head, AND on his dime lol? That is all I am going to say because my past feelings on the matter still apply here. Ditch the poison.

[surreal1272]

57 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

You know what they say about one's head and rent free living right? Guess who is clearly living inside his head, AND on his dime lol? That is all I am going to say because my past feelings on the matter still apply here. Ditch the poison.

Corrected above in bold

[balthazar]

I... I d-don't know... 

[oldshurst442]

^^^

I see what is going on here...

and it enrages me that such a thing could exist...

Piss on the dude that created this atrocious thing

I wish I could have never seen such a thing

Phoquing bullshyte!!!

 

[oldshurst442]

This however

 

is acceptable

[Cory Wolfe]

On 1/22/2022 at 10:26 AM, balthazar said:

Oh, and states like KY charging you a YEARLY valuation tax on your vehicle... YEARLY.

South Carolina is the same way, BUT there isn't a traditional sales tax applied to vehicle sales, just a $500 max "infrastructure" fee. Short term you pay less, but it doesn't take very many years to surpass what sales tax would have cost. 

On 1/24/2022 at 1:26 PM, Drew Dowdell said:

Unibody v. BOF ride quality comes down more around what the manufacturer does beyond that decision.  My BOF Avalanche rides fantastic on the highway, most of the Ram pickups and Magnaride equipped Denalis do too.  The F-150 rides terrible unless there is one version out there with an active suspension that I haven't driven yet.  The Ford Mach-E rides like crap if you don't get the active suspension.  The Telsa Model 3, which is unibody, rides like a Conestoga wagon. 

Yeah, it's definitely down to suspension set-up and tuning.

Interestingly, ride quality is one difference I've noticed between the Model 3 and Model Y. The MY rides worse despite feeling slightly softer sprung. The M3 is more composed and comfortable; it even feels a bit more solid. The ride/handling is pretty similar to my old ATS.

On 1/24/2022 at 2:50 PM, David said:

Wow, Maverick gas truck new orders on hold now too.

Seems demand is so crazy that Ford is stopping new orders to manage customer expectations. 

It's not overly surprising to me that demand for these is so high. 

On 1/25/2022 at 11:28 AM, David said:

Seems after 13 years since its resurrection that the Dodge Challenger has finally taken the crown as top selling Muscle Car.

I'm surprised it took this long. The Challenger is probably the most well-rounded of the three and has stuck with tried-and-true, well, everything. These days, it would be the one I'd buy despite the Camaro being a better fit for little ol' me. I almost bought one instead the Tesla, twice; both times a Challenger was in the running. Give me a nice wide-body Scat Pack in purple. 

On 1/26/2022 at 10:37 AM, riviera74 said:

OK. Why are Camaro sales last year so low compared to the Challenger and the Mustang?

They've been trending in the wrong direction ever since they switched to Alpha. It seems no one really wanted a smaller Camaro, especially after the refresh. Covid shortages likely put the final nail in the coffin. 

10 hours ago, balthazar said:

I... I d-don't know... 

It's blasphemy, but I don't hate it.

15 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Just preserving for posterity in case the post gets deleted...

 

Upon my return, I sort of wondered what happened to him. I don't think I want, nor care, to know. 

[oldshurst442]

42 minutes ago, Cory Wolfe said:

They've been trending in the wrong direction ever since they switched to Alpha. It seems no one really wanted a smaller Camaro, especially after the refresh. Covid shortages likely put the final nail in the coffin. 

I dont think size is an issue.   Even going to Alpha.  Camaro had respectable numbers as compared to Mustang all the way through.  Forget about Camaro sales even beating Mustang for a couple of years. 

CHEVROLET CAMARO – US – BY YEAR

 

 

Year	sold
2009	61,648
2010	81,299
2011	88,249
2012	91,314
2013	80,294
2014	86,297
2015	77,502
2016	72,705
2017	67,940
2018	50,963
2019	48,266
2020	29,777
2021	21,893

FORD MUSTANG – US – BY YEAR

 

 

Year	sold
2005	160,975
2006	166,530
2007	134,626
2008	91,251
2009	66,623
2010	73,716
2011	70,438
2012	90,706
2013	77,186
2014	82,635
2015	122,349
2016	105,932
2017	81,866
2018	75,842
2019	72,489
2020	61,090
2021	52,384

 

I think Chevrolet missed the boat in that they never got away from that same look SINCE 2009.  Even BEFORE that. The movie Transformers came out in 2007.  2 years before the car actually came out. But as people, we got to see the SAME style Camaro SINCE 2007.

Before Alpha on the Zeta ONLY for the movie...

And the Alpha Camaro

 

Virtually unchanged.  1969 Camaro being the inspiration for both generations. 

The Mustang had the fastback Mustang of the mid '60s as inspiration, but both generations do NOT look alike.  Like...at ALL.

Ill use the Bullitt editions to  illustrate my point

 

As far as the Challenger goes. Well, it seems like what Ive said is contradictory... 

But I also explained why the Challenger went from trailing in sales to today Camaro levels to where Challenger leads in sales. 

Drew also pointed it out.

AWD V6

Although it is slightly bigger, the Mustang is also kinda like a bunker inside, not as much as an Alpha Camaro, but Camaro DID see 70 000 units 2 or 3 years...so I dont think its a MAJOR factor.   

But the Challenger DID use ITS strengths to its advantage.

Its NOT a track machine with its size and weight. What it IS though its a MUSCLE car through and through.   The Mustang and Camaro have evolved from being muscle cars to being all around sports cars, which is also a good thing, BUT...the folk from Auburn Hills played UP the MUSCLE car image by UPPING the horsepower levels to UNGODLY amounts terrorizing Lamborghinis and Teslas along with its pony car peers and came up with MUSCLE car trim names like Scatpack 392, Superbee, Hellcat, Demon.  

The Camaro FAILED to impress with the IMAGE of WANTING a ZL1...  

The ZL1 ALSO spanked cars ABOVE its class.  Its a silent Porsche killer on the track. 

But...MUSCLE car people dont care for that.   And...Porsche people dont care about Camaros.

Hennessey gets it when HE introduced The Exorcist...  THAT should have been Chevrolet doing that if Chevrolet was following instead of leading with the horsepower wars.

Mustang...dont forget, has Shelby Performance.  The GT350 made a splash with their "flatplane" crank V8...   Hinting at Corvette C8 Z06...

Shelby tied in with Mustang also has MUSCLE CAR type SUPERSNAKES.

 

Just to say, the Camaro is stale, boring and does NOT get anybody excited to own one. 

The Mustang and Challenger excite folk because their marketing has evolved since 2007.

Transformer movies are looooong gone.  Even the movie franchise, The Bumblebee movie from 2-3 years ago, gave up on the Camaro and went back to their roots with a VW Bug...

 

Edited January 30, 2022 by oldshurst442

[trinacriabob]

On 1/28/2022 at 8:03 PM, Drew Dowdell said:

I'm pretty nimble for a 43 year old and even I have difficulty getting in and out of it... as would just about anyone over 5'2".

That said, once you're in, it is a very comfortable fit. I really love driving it because it is so light and nimble (relative to the other two) and even the V6 is more than plenty for most anyone. 

But the Challenger is easier to live with day to day than both of them. It's big, as easy to get in and out of as my '81 Toronado, and rides comfortably.  The V6 isn't really enough for its mass, but Dodge will happily sell you any of a selection of V8s. 

The Challenger is also the only one of the three to offer AWD. 

If the V6 is the Pentastar that goes into the Charger, I could live with that.

I need to test sit this car, at the very least.  How's the visibility, especially to the rear?

I wonder how much longer this model with be available - with an ICE - since it looks like the curtain may fall on Charger.

[Drew Dowdell]

7 minutes ago, trinacriabob said:

If the V6 is the Pentastar that goes into the Charger, I could live with that.

I need to test sit this car, at the very least.  How's the visibility, especially to the rear?

I wonder how much longer this model with be available - with an ICE - since it looks like the curtain may fall on Charger.

It’s the same V6, but it’s not as powerful as the Camaro V6.  The visibility isn’t the best compared to sedans, but it’s better than the other 2.

[trinacriabob]

2 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

I dont think size is an issue.   Even going to Alpha.  Camaro had respectable numbers as compared to Mustang all the way through.  Forget about Camaro sales even beating Mustang for a couple of years. 

 

And the Alpha Camaro

The Mustang had the fastback Mustang of the mid '60s as inspiration, but both generations do NOT look alike.  Like...at ALL.

I have to laugh at your opening line: "I don't think size is an issue."  Societies have seemingly debated this for thousands of years.  Just kidding.

I never took the first Camaro that came back to us as a retro rehash.  It has a scrunched up look I didn't like from the very beginning.  Maybe it was a good thing that no one tried to release a Trans Am equivalent with another division.  They tested the market for GM as a whole with just the Camaro.

I like this last Mustang you've put up.  They look different enough and there's more going on in the grille, the side sculpting, and all that.  I'm not so sure I like the Mustang's dashboard, from what I've seen on line and at the auto shows.  It's got a spartan and squarish austerity I don't like.

Again, the Challenger decided to sculpt its dashboard in an interesting way and in a way that shows it's related to the Charger.  Thumbs up to that.

[Cory Wolfe]

3 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

I dont think size is an issue.   Even going to Alpha.  Camaro had respectable numbers as compared to Mustang all the way through.  Forget about Camaro sales even beating Mustang for a couple of years. 

All valid points. 

Whatever the cause, we can see that Camaro sales were pretty flat and segment leading for nearly the entire run of the 5th gen model. Sales slumped a bit when the 6th gen Mustang came out and then they never recovered after that. Perhaps the Mustang was simply stuck in a rut (the same rut that the Camaro is in now) prior to that 2015 redesign. 

[oldshurst442]

3 hours ago, trinacriabob said:

Again, the Challenger decided to sculpt its dashboard in an interesting way and in a way that shows it's related to the Charger.  Thumbs up to that.

FCA, allowed for this to happen.  Marchionne was not a total fool. He knew where to spend money on improvements and increase the value of the vehicles he knew that were and are going to be cash cows for FCA. 

 

[oldshurst442]

1 hour ago, Cory Wolfe said:

All valid points. 

Whatever the cause, we can see that Camaro sales were pretty flat and segment leading for nearly the entire run of the 5th gen model. Sales slumped a bit when the 6th gen Mustang came out and then they never recovered after that. Perhaps the Mustang was simply stuck in a rut (the same rut that the Camaro is in now) prior to that 2015 redesign. 

 

Yeah!  The numbers dont lie.  

 

Ironically enough though, 2015 is when the Hellcat came out. And Im gonna post its sales numbers as I have no idea what those are.  As I type this, Im curious to see when did the Challenger numbers start going up. Im willing to bet, its around 2015. maybe in 2016.    Maybe 'twas 2018 when Dodge made the V6 model available with AWD?

Here goes:

DODGE CHALLENGER – US – BY YEAR

 

 

Year	sold
2008	17,423
2009	25,852
2010	36,791
2011	39,534
2012	46,788
2013	51,462
2014	51,611
2015	66,365
2016	64,478
2017	64,537
2018	66,716
2019	60,997
2020	52,955
2021	54,315

 

 

Well, whatever the reasons are for the Camaro to slip in sales, and in reality, its not just one main reason, Chevrolet needs to seriously rethink there marketing strategy for its Camaro.  Tough sale as GM's marketing is crap. 

[G. David Felt]

R.I.P. To the Big Block V8 on the on the Crate Motor Site. Officially Dead is the LS7 base block and the LS& 427/570.

Course there is the all New 10.4 L 1,000HP plus big block still or you can go small block look, but an electric motor replacement.

Here they build drop in electric motor solutions to look like old V8 motors.

Webb Motorworks (@webbmotorworks) • Instagram photos and videos

[balthazar]

? NO ; the big block crate is alive & flourishing, along with the small block.
SO MANY choices! 

2022 big blocks available ~ 
ZZ632 : 1004 / 876
ZZ572 : 727 / 680
ZZ572 : 621 / 645
ZZ502 : 508 / 580
502HO : 461 / 558
ZZ454 : 469 / 519
454HO : 438 / 500
ZZ427 : 480 / 490
HT502 : 406 / 541

As for Webb motor works; their electric-motor-inside-a-V8-casting costs between $50 grand and $70 grand! 
A ZZ502 is $15K! You could build FOUR hot rod ZZ502s for the cost of ONE Webb kit.

[Cory Wolfe]

So, on the topic of Challengers, my latest diecast arrived the other day.

 

[Drew Dowdell]

9 hours ago, Cory Wolfe said:

Yeah, it's definitely down to suspension set-up and tuning.

Interestingly, ride quality is one difference I've noticed between the Model 3 and Model Y. The MY rides worse despite feeling slightly softer sprung. The M3 is more composed and comfortable; it even feels a bit more solid. The ride/handling is pretty similar to my old ATS.

Have you had either of them back here?  The roads down your way are a bit nicer than what we have here..... and that's when the roads stay standing..

2 miles from my house.... 

[Cory Wolfe]

3 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Have you had either of them back here?  The roads down your way are a bit nicer than what we have here..... and that's when the roads stay standing..

The roads here are worse than most of rural Pennsylvania's in my experience. The problem here in South Carolina is they rarely repave anything. The major ring highway around Charleston is essentially a cheese grater and will make any interior rattle show itself. I can't speak for Pittsburgh specifically, but we've taken the Y through Breezewood and Altoona en route to Dubois. As noted, it is somehow less compliant and more wayward than the 3. We took my first 3 to Detroit, however, which definitely has worse roads. 

I'm not sure which Model 3 you may have been in, but my SR+ with the 18" aero wheels has a fairly compliant ride by my standards (I do prefer a nice stiff ride). It's definitely not a luxury car ride, mind you, but I feel it's in line with the ATS I had (granted, it had run-flats) and not quite as uncomfortable as my GTI could be. Something like the WRX I test drove before buying it was way worse, as well.

I will note that my newest 3 does have Michelin Pilot Sports and they ride better than the Michelin Primacy EV tires that usually ship with these. My first one had those and while it was slightly more harsh, it handled Detroit's ruins just fine. I can say that I wouldn't necessarily want to live solely with the Y there, however. 

[oldshurst442]

  We got the news about that bridge collapse up in Montreal.  Although its quite sad for the folk that got hurt, its kinda freaky for me to know that its but a couple of miles from your home.  I feel a connection with you.  Please dont feel weirded out. LOL

 

[Drew Dowdell]

4 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

  We got the news about that bridge collapse up in Montreal.  Although its quite sad for the folk that got hurt, its kinda freaky for me to know that its but a couple of miles from your home.  I feel a connection with you.  Please dont feel weirded out. LOL

 

I’m on that bridge multiple times a week and walk with whatever dog I’m watching in the park under it frequently. It definitely weirded me out. Not you, the bridge collapse.

[oldshurst442]

Yeah. I would imagine that you feel uneasy knowing that it could have been you or Albert on that bridge.   Not a good feeling.  

I didnt realize up until know how this is accident very personal to you.   

 

[oldshurst442]

This is my Challenger.  A 2015 Hellcat.  GT Spirit and its a resin model.  Its sealed meaning there are no openings.  Therefore the hood cant be opened to reveal the supercharged Hemi 'cause there aint no engine underneath.  The paint quality is outstanding. The interior is equally impressive but it aint accessible.  

[balthazar]

Again; to correct David's earlier post [ "you can go small block look, but an electric motor replacement."], here is the 2022 list of crate IC small blocks available ~

350 base : 265 / 351
350 Deluxe : 300 / 335
HT 383 : 323 / 444
350HO : 333/ 381
Ram Jet 350 : 350 / 403
SP350 : 357 / 407
SP350 : 385 / 405
ZZ6 : 404 / 406
ZZ6 EFI : 420 / 408
SP383 Deluxe : 435 / 445
SP383 EFI : 450 / 436
LS3 : 430 / 425
LS364 : 452 / 441
LSX376-B15 : 476 / 444
LSX376-B8 : 476 / 475
LS376-480 : 495 / 473
LS376 : 525 / 486
DR525 : 525 / 494
LS376 : 533 / 477
LSX454 : 627 / 586
LS9 : 638 / 604

Discontinued : LS427 505/470, LSA 556/551

No worries IC fans; more than enough IC goodness to suit your needs!

[daves87rs]

45 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Again; to correct David's earlier post [ "you can go small block look, but an electric motor replacement."], here is the 2022 list of crate IC small blocks available ~

350 base : 265 / 351
350 Deluxe : 300 / 335
HT 383 : 323 / 444
350HO : 333/ 381
Ram Jet 350 : 350 / 403
SP350 : 357 / 407
SP350 : 385 / 405
ZZ6 : 404 / 406
ZZ6 EFI : 420 / 408
SP383 Deluxe : 435 / 445
SP383 EFI : 450 / 436
LS3 : 430 / 425
LS364 : 452 / 441
LSX376-B15 : 476 / 444
LSX376-B8 : 476 / 475
LS376-480 : 495 / 473
LS376 : 525 / 486
DR525 : 525 / 494
LS376 : 533 / 477
LSX454 : 627 / 586
LS9 : 638 / 604

Discontinued : LS427 505/470, LSA 556/551

No worries IC fans; more than enough IC goodness to suit your needs!

That makes me happy…

[balthazar]

5 hours ago, balthazar said:

As for Webb motor works; their electric-motor-inside-a-V8-casting costs between $50 grand and $70 grand! 
A ZZ502 is $15K! You could build FOUR hot rod ZZ502s for the cost of ONE Webb kit.

In reading their website further, it provides an expected range of SIXTY miles... depending of course on vehicle weight, terrain & driving style. 

This is a joke, right?!? $70 grand, no installation, and a max of 60 miles range?

Anyone think they'll sell any?

[Robert Hall]

9 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I’m on that bridge multiple times a week and walk with whatever dog I’m watching in the park under it frequently. It definitely weirded me out. Not you, the bridge collapse.

I've driven over that bridge a few times when visiting the Burgh...last time about 6 years ago..

6 hours ago, balthazar said:

In reading their website further, it provides an expected range of SIXTY miles... depending of course on vehicle weight, terrain & driving style. 

This is a joke, right?!? $70 grand, no installation, and a max of 60 miles range?

Anyone think they'll sell any?

Seems pointless for such a low range, but if you are only doing 1/4 mile at a time, I guess that's ok.

[ccap41]

17 hours ago, Cory Wolfe said:

All valid points. 

Whatever the cause, we can see that Camaro sales were pretty flat and segment leading for nearly the entire run of the 5th gen model. Sales slumped a bit when the 6th gen Mustang came out and then they never recovered after that. Perhaps the Mustang was simply stuck in a rut (the same rut that the Camaro is in now) prior to that 2015 redesign. 

The mustang was stuck in the live-axel-rut prior to 2015. Them stepping into the 20th century with IRS made a world of a difference. 

[surreal1272]

On 1/27/2022 at 6:13 PM, balthazar said:

?  Ford charges you $19,500 for a mere 70 mile increase in range on the Lightning.

Welcome to the new OEM "gouging". 

Good thing that never happened with ICE trucks. Just a $10K bump for a diesel engine, thats all. Just skip the fact that the longer range battery also comes with 137 extra horsepower and more standard equipment. Seriously, maybe stop using the SMK method and actually compare apples to apples. BTW, $9K of the $19K for an equipment group bump up. If you go with the standard range model, it is a $9K option so you are really only paying $10K for more range and more power, same as if one went from gas to diesel in your average Super Duty truck.

Edited January 31, 2022 by surreal1272

[balthazar]

1 minute ago, surreal1272 said:

Good thing that never happened with ICE trucks. Just a $10K bump for a diesel engine, thats all.

Correct- tho that's a 3/4-tonner.
Diesel from GM in my 1/2-ton was $2390 over the 4-cyl, and nets you another 120 miles of range.
Significantly better deal than $19,500 and 70 miles.

[G. David Felt]

Found this site, very interesting reviews especially on stuff for the outdoors person. I liked this electric All-Terrain Skateboard that could go all over.

Electric All-Terrain Skateboard Review: Evolve Hadean Carbon Is My New Favorite Way to Commute | GearJunkie

The review says it is like snowboarding on any terrain.

Very cool reviews on all kinds of outdoor gear including select auto's that are focused on the outdoor world.

Latest | GearJunkie

[ccap41]

46 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Significantly better deal than $19,500 and 70 miles.

As this has been gone over many times already, you know damn well you're getting A LOT more than just 70 miles of range for that 20k. 

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

Correct- tho that's a 3/4-tonner.
Diesel from GM in my 1/2-ton was $2390 over the 4-cyl, and nets you another 120 miles of range.
Significantly better deal than $19,500 and 70 miles.

The class is irrelevant. Diesel itself has always commanded a certain premium without the extra package that is offered on top of the extended range Lightning. They are not any near as far off as you are implying once you stop comparing apples to oranges.

35 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

As this has been gone over many times already, you know damn well you're getting A LOT more than just 70 miles of range for that 20k. 

And was explained to him yet again and he chose to ignore it. Again, that SMK method.

[G. David Felt]

3 hours ago, balthazar said:

Correct- tho that's a 3/4-tonner.
Diesel from GM in my 1/2-ton was $2390 over the 4-cyl, and nets you another 120 miles of range.
Significantly better deal than $19,500 and 70 miles.

Keep in mind that while FORD is limiting how much they say their F150 Lighting can tow / haul, we all know they have proven to outdo Diesel as their own video proves.

 

[balthazar]

2 hours ago, ccap41 said:

As this has been gone over many times already, you know damn well you're getting A LOT more than just 70 miles of range for that 20k. 

Both standard range Lightning & extended range Lightning are dual-motor. Extended range does get you one single extra thing (beyond the 70 miles max of additional range), the Ford Charge Station Pro for your home. The cost for that as a stand-alone piece is $800 (requires a licensed electrician to install it). So that still leaves you with : $18,700 for 70 miles additional range. 

2 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

The class is irrelevant.

No more 'apples to apples'???  Half-ton to half-ton is irrelevant? C'mon....

[balthazar]

25 minutes ago, David said:

Keep in mind that while FORD is limiting how much they say their F150 Lighting can tow / haul, we all know they have proven to outdo Diesel as their own video proves.

You're comparing a FAR overloaded scenario to factory tow ratings; not legit.
Remember the '70s Chevy 2500 ads where a 350 V8 was towing 187 TONS and 230 TONS? They were posted on this board.

That was 155 HP / 250 TRQ (1978 numbers). Whatcha wanna bet a 445 HP / 910 TRQ TD can better those numbers... by a LOT? But do these carnival exhibits really matter??
 

Edited January 31, 2022 by balthazar

[G. David Felt]

26 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Both standard range Lightning & extended range Lightning are dual-motor. Extended range does get you one single extra thing (beyond the 70 miles max of additional range), the Ford Charge Station Pro for your home. The cost for that as a stand-alone piece is $800 (requires a licensed electrician to install it). So that still leaves you with : $18,700 for 70 miles additional range. 

No more 'apples to apples'???  Half-ton to half-ton is irrelevant? C'mon....

You get more than the 70 miles and the Level 2 charger at home. You get more horsepower and torque. You know that.

Electrics I think will change how we look at things, but I do agree that 1500 to 1500, 2500 to 2500 and 3500 to 3500. With that, we need to look at all the details and I honestly have not looked at the true differences between the standard battery pack and the extended battery pack on the details other than range, HP and Torque.

22 minutes ago, balthazar said:

You're comparing a FAR overloaded scenario to factory tow ratings; not legit.
Remember the '70s Chevy 2500 ads where a 350 V8 was towing 187 TONS and 230 TONS? They were posted on this board.

That was 155 HP / 250 TRQ (1978 numbers). Whatcha wanna bet a 445 HP / 910 TRQ TD can better those numbers... by a LOT? But do these carnival exhibits really matter??
 

Yes, Yes they do as sadly too many people point to the marketing fluff as proof their auto is better than the other guys and I remember the crazy overloaded Chevy commercials and how the Chevy guys would talk that up at Ford and Ram guys. It is the same with this marketing stunt, the Ford guys are gonna point to that as a far better truck pulling a crazy amount of weight compared to Tesla having their truck pull 300,000 lbs of plane.

[balthazar]

3 minutes ago, David said:

ou get more than the 70 miles and the Level 2 charger at home. You get more horsepower and torque. You know that.

On a discussion of range, more power output is irrelevant; a byproduct of more kW, not a separate addition. 

Edited January 31, 2022 by balthazar

[ccap41]

48 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Both standard range Lightning & extended range Lightning are dual-motor. Extended range does get you one single extra thing (beyond the 70 miles max of additional range), the Ford Charge Station Pro for your home. The cost for that as a stand-alone piece is $800 (requires a licensed electrician to install it). So that still leaves you with : $18,700 for 70 miles additional range. 

"To be fair, Lightning buyers get more than 33 extra kWh for their extra 20 grand. Although Ford nominally lists the battery upgrade as a $10,000 option, it is bundled with Equipment Group 312A (listed as a $9,500 option, despite the fact that you can't separate it from the Extended-Range Battery). While confusing to consumers (@balthazar) at best and intentionally misleading (@balthazar) at worst, opting for the combined equipment and battery package does net Lightning XLT buyers quite a bit of extra features, such as 20-inch wheels, Ford's latest Co-Pilot 360 Advanced Driver Assist System, power tailgate with tailgate step and work surface, heated front seats and steering wheel, and the 9.6-kW Pro Power generator, among other things."

https://www.motortrend.com/news/2022-ford-f-150-lightning-extended-range-battery-configurator/

[G. David Felt]

24 minutes ago, balthazar said:

On a discussion of range, more power output is irrelevant, a byproduct of more kW, not a separate addition. 

Not really, as has been proven, you can get maximum power out on a smaller battery, but it also reduces range and with that, range is a critical part of customers buying EVs. As such, makes sense that you would give more HP/Torque in addition to longer range.

[balthazar]

32 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Lightning buyers get

OK, thanks - I get it now. 

So a Lightning XLT standard range has the 311A package as standard (no heated seat/wheel, no power seat, no box lighting, no tailgate step, etc).
For some reason Ford bundles all the amenities people want in 312A with the extra batteries, so while the extended range battery is listed as $10K, you're forced to also take the $9500 312A package. 

You can buy a standard-range Lightning with the 312A package, just not the inverse (extended range withOUT 312A.  Ford seems to be more restrictive on configuration the Lightning than GM is with the IC 1/2-tons.

Lightning XLT standard range plus 312A plus spray-in bedliner & floor liners stickers at $64,764 (including $1695) destination.

[balthazar]

50 minutes ago, David said:

as has been proven, you can get maximum power out on a smaller battery

So Ford can build the same kW battery and give it more power? I don't get what you're saying.

[surreal1272]

2 hours ago, balthazar said:

Both standard range Lightning & extended range Lightning are dual-motor. Extended range does get you one single extra thing (beyond the 70 miles max of additional range), the Ford Charge Station Pro for your home. The cost for that as a stand-alone piece is $800 (requires a licensed electrician to install it). So that still leaves you with : $18,700 for 70 miles additional range. 

No more 'apples to apples'???  Half-ton to half-ton is irrelevant? C'mon....

The focus is not the truck here. It’s the engine options and the price bump that goes with it. You know exactly what I’m talking about.