Random Thoughts Thread

[Drew Dowdell]

11 minutes ago, dwightlooi said:

For the Government types it's an excuse to pass laws, make regulations and divert funds to get industries to come to them to beg for relief, favors or handouts, thereby empowering and enriching themselves and their buddies?

For people in White Coats it's billions of dollars in funding, adoration and maybe a prize from Stockholm vs losing your tenure, being ostracized and having no money?

For Celebrities, Media morons and Joe the Tree Hugger its a convenient avenue to feel good about themselves and have others feel good about them?

It's like the Medieval Church really... the Kings are for power through the Divine Right of Kings supported by the Church. The Wise Men was for it for legitimacy, patronage and not being burned at the stake. The Low Born are for it because serfdom sucked and it was comforting to think that they are servants to God and the promise of eternity, rather than slaves to their lords and clergy!

That's an awfully convoluted way to get grift. There are far easier ways to get it than creating a global lie and getting 96% of scientists to agree with it. 

[Drew Dowdell]

Quote

Waste has never been really a problem

Quote

Waste has never been really a problem

Quote

Waste has never been really a problem

Quote

Waste has never been really a problem

hmmm..... except.... it's a problem....

Nuclear Waste Costs Americans Billions Every Year | by FSI Stanford | Freeman Spogli Institute for International Studies | Medium

"We’re spending $6 billion a year trying to deal with the problem, and we’ll continue to spend $4.5 to $5 billion a year without solving the problem."

So, spend $12 billion... two years of maintenance on the problem and build a few breeder reactors to break down the waste and eliminate the problem and generate a few gigawatts of power at the same time. 

[G. David Felt]

3 minutes ago, dwightlooi said:

Because when they don't say that or they lose their jobs, get ostracized and get no money for their labs? And, when they do they get tenure, get acclaimed and are showed with billions of research money?

No, I am not high. Compared to other pollutants Nuclear Waste has never really been a problem ever though environmental types like to make it the boogieman. Nuclear waste is COMPACT and SOLID. Regardless of how toxic and/or radioactive they are, the Earth is a HUGE place and there is no shortage of arid and stable places where you can put them under shelter above the water table for centuries if need be. For context, ALL of the Nuclear waste generated in the USA since the Manhattan Project is about 80,000 tons whereas the Great Pyramid is about 5 million tons.

WOW, when it comes to Nuclear. You have the size right about 80,000 tons at 2018 and it is toxic and destructive and the Great Pyramids has nothing to do with this. No one would mind 5 million tons of rock, 80,000 tons of toxic waste everyone minds.

NO ONE wants that waste even when it is a solid rock area that used to be a salt mine and upon turning liquid into solid form to bury it, states still do not want to deal with it. 

Washington state has over 56 million gallons of High Level Nuclear waste due to Hanford and the work done there to nuclearize this country. As such, it is in rusting out in ground storage tanks that are now leaching into the underground water tables and the INCOMPETANT Last Administration was too stupid to work with the facts and scientist to address this, instead like an Ostrich, they stuck their idiot heads in the sand and re-classified the waste to regular nuclear waste which it is not.

A solution was found to turn the liquid into a solid and bury it in a place that would not as you state leak into ground water, sadly the few areas in this country that could do that refuse to let it happen for various reason.

To quote: I can understand not understanding a complicated subject like nuclear waste. It’s willful ignorance that I can’t forgive.

Bureaucrats frustrate Hanford scientists | Guest Opinion | Tri-City Herald (tri-cityherald.com)

Quote: America’s nuclear waste is accumulating at over 75 sites in 35 states. In 2016, Stanford scholars discussed why there was no clear way forward for its final disposal. Not much has improved.

The steep costs of nuclear waste in the U.S. (stanford.edu)

As of March 2020, we now have 83,000 metric tons of Nuclear waste in this country.

5 Fast Facts about Spent Nuclear Fuel | Department of Energy

U.S. nuclear industry - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

[dwightlooi]

3 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

hmmm..... except.... it's a problem....

Nuclear Waste Costs Americans Billions Every Year | by FSI Stanford | Freeman Spogli Institute for International Studies | Medium

"We’re spending $6 billion a year trying to deal with the problem, and we’ll continue to spend $4.5 to $5 billion a year without solving the problem."

So, spend $12 billion... two years of maintenance on the problem and build a few breeder reactors to break down the waste and eliminate the problem and generate a few gigawatts of power at the same time. 

Two things... We spend billions on placating environmental idiots on a non-issue -- that's nothing new. You can spend millions on trying to accommodate a turtle who leaves in an area bisected by a pipeline; it's as big and as tiny of a problem as you want to make it.

That fact is that we can simply take all the wastes, pile in in a the desert with a roof over it. The world wouldn't end and for 99.9999999% of the population it wouldn't be within 200 miles of anything they do. Maybe you can't live with that. I can.

[Drew Dowdell]

2 minutes ago, dwightlooi said:

Two things... We spend billions on placating environmental idiots on a non-issue -- that's nothing new. You can spend millions on trying to accommodate a turtle who leaves in an area bisected by a pipeline; it's as big and as tiny of a problem as you want to make it.

That fact is that we can simply take all the wastes, pile in in a the desert with a roof over it. The world wouldn't end and for 99.9999999% of the population it wouldn't be within 200 miles of anything they do. Maybe you can't live with that. I can.

Silly. Just bury the problems in the desert instead of dealing with them and actually using it to our advantage. 

[loki]

2 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I had a hard time following what the point you were trying to make here was, but I'll address the points here that I do understand.

There is a difference between the Electric company that services your house and the electric company that generates the electricity and the electric company that operates the grid. The grids are often non-profit entities regulated by the state and fed.  The local power utilities are the ones who bill you... they are private companies and they are regulated by the states. The generation companies aren't really regulated by anyone except in terms of pollution control. 

I am all in favor of nuke power... I think a national program of Nuke, rooftop solar, and wind would make the national grid as green as can be.  Use modern breeder reactors and pebble bed reactors that are self regulating and nuke power would be super safe with nearly no waste.  The problem is the NIMBYs.... no one wants a reactor in their back yard because of Chernobyl, Three Mile Island, and Fukushima. It is the sad truth about the future of nuke power in the US.  It's like how the Olds V8 diesel killed the passenger diesel market in the US.

The purpose is to ensure the general welfare.  Grids cross state lines (out of necessity, see also: Texas and what happens when you don't), so under the commerce clause, the grids are covered under the federal powers.  The Feds were basically powerless during the Texas power outage for that exact reason... the best they could do is send generators and blankets.  If it were any other state, there would be federal action at the grid level. 

what parts didn't you understand? my alternate source of what describes socialism instead of a straight definition?

the commerce clause has been used to cover anything the law makers wanted to use it on, even gardens for self(family) consumption. find the Wickard v Filburn decision.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wickard_v._Filburn
"An Ohio farmer, Roscoe Filburn, was growing wheat to feed animals on his own farm. The US government had established limits on wheat production, based on the acreage owned by a farmer, to stabilize wheat prices and supplies. Filburn grew more than was permitted and so was ordered to pay a penalty. In response, he said that because his wheat was not sold, it could not be regulated as commerce, let alone "interstate" commerce (described in the Constitution as "Commerce... among the several states"). The Supreme Court disagreed:"
so, of course the law/logic is covered, but this also supports the case that the commerce clause makes the federal gov all powerful. this is an authoritarian view and it requires authoritarian power to enforce socialism.. be it regulated or actually planned. if the farmer cannot grow food for his family/livestock w/o penalty, then the government has control over your life/property. he is not free to be productive outside of coercion.

if the federal gov is all powerful(commerce clause), that goes against the 10th amendment.

i guess i'm not arguing that you are wrong, but i'm arguing that the supposed limits to how our economy works, legally, is soooooo flawed, it can't be called capitalism.  I know most people call it mixed, but really only because we have the illusion of property rights...at least when it's not the wealthy/influential against the gov. so because we don't have enshrined property rights in 99.999999% of the cases, we actually have socialism.... at least a weak form of it, just stop calling it mixed. lol

[dwightlooi]

36 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Silly. Just bury the problems in the desert instead of dealing with them and actually using it to our advantage. 

Why not? When it is not a problem to begin with and doing otherwise is hugely expensive and of minimal benefit? It is in fact silly to choose a vastly more expensive solution to what is essentially a non-problem. Put another way, we can totally clean up nuclear test sites rather than simply make them off limits. But it is a so expensive in exchange for a remote and largely useless plot of land you simply just put up a few signs and call it a day. Not just us, the Russians, the Chinese and everyone else does that. I have no problems with it. I'll rather talk about lead contamination of drinking water or Oxides of Nitrogen in the air than worry about non-issues like nuclear waste or Carbon Emissions.

[dwightlooi]

.

Edited March 22, 2021 by Drew Dowdell
Post Removed: User put into moderated status

[ccap41]

3 hours ago, ykX said:

So what happened to No Politics rule? ....

The admin wanted it in so it gets a pass. 

[Drew Dowdell]

3 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

The admin wanted it in so it gets a pass. 

Up until about 30 second ago, we had been keeping it civil and philosophical, and then @dwightlooi ruined it again.... he is now under moderation watch... anything he posts will have to be approved by me until his points start expiring. 

[G. David Felt]

20 minutes ago, dwightlooi said:

Why not? When it is not a problem to begin with and doing otherwise is hugely expensive and of minimal benefit? It is in fact silly to choose a vastly more expensive solution to what is essentially a non-problem. Put another way, we can totally clean up nuclear test sites rather than simply make them off limits. But it is a so expensive in exchange for a remote and largely useless plot of land you simply just put up a few signs and call it a day. Not just us, the Russians, the Chinese and everyone else does that. I have no problems with it. I'll rather talk about lead contamination of drinking water or Oxides of Nitrogen in the air than worry about non-issues like nuclear waste or Carbon Emissions.

Nuclear waste is a Problem and Burying it in the sand will contaminate who knows what lies beneath. There are better ways to deal with it than just pushing it off into an area that you feel is unimportant.

As proven in 2015 we can convert the liquid waste into glass and then bury it safely.

Turning nuclear waste into glass: Physics Today: Vol 68, No 2 (scitation.org)

The other option and yes it costs money but as @Drew Dowdell pointed out, we can build the proper facilities to deal with this waste and generate power also.

[dwightlooi]

1 hour ago, David said:

VW has announced that they have ended all ICE development joining Audi as they focus on EV's for VW and Audi by 2030. Porsche will be the only company to continue with ICE for now as it funds the transition to EVs. Porsche will eventually join Audi and VW in becoming an all EV company but at a later date.

VW CEO did state the following: Duesmann gave no timeline for when the automaker will stop producing combustion engines. "Our customers will probably decide when the last combustion engine comes off the production line," he said.

That's not exactly a bad thing. There is not much additional efficiency to be squeezed out of the ICE. The last thing we need is any more annoying, unreliable, unrefined and expensive "improvements" to get another 0.5 mpg. Anyone who had to put up with, or modify their cars to get rid of, Auto Start-Stop knows what I mean. Also, how has previously stellar Honda-Acura reliability been since they adopted those 1.5L turbo engines boosted to 21 psi in their Accord? I am sure their customers appreciate going from 5 stars to 3 stars...

Edited March 22, 2021 by dwightlooi

[G. David Felt]

As I posted VW has with Audi joined the growing group of companies focusing on pure EV R&D and selling as long as they sell the current lineup of ICE auto's.

As such we now have the following list of auto companies that no longer will be investing in ICE technology, sell what they have as long as people buy it and the future will be Electric vehicles.

• Audi
• VW
• Daimler
• Volvo
• Jaguar
• Land Rover
• Stellantis
• PSA
• Bentley
• Aston Martin

Companies that will end ICE auto's as EV replacements come out.

• GM
• Ford
• Honda
• Nissan

There are more companies that would fit the list but this is what I found from their auto companies news release sections.

[balthazar]

2 hours ago, David said:

the Great Pyramids has nothing to do with this

It was a simple illustration of volume.

 

50 minutes ago, David said:

following list of auto companies that no longer will be investing in ICE technology

OEMs have a long history of saying/promising this and delivering that. Time will tell.

[surreal1272]

2 hours ago, dwightlooi said:

Because when they don't say that or they lose their jobs, get ostracized and get no money for their labs? And, when they do they get tenure, get acclaimed and are showered with billions of research money?

No, I am not high. Compared to other pollutants Nuclear Waste has never really been a problem even though environmental types like to make it the boogieman. Nuclear waste is COMPACT and SOLID. And, regardless of how toxic and/or radioactive they are, the Earth is a HUGE place and there is no shortage of arid and stable places where you can put them under shelter above the water table for centuries if need be. For context, ALL of the Nuclear waste generated in the USA since the Manhattan Project is about 80,000 tons whereas the Great Pyramid is about 5 million tons.

No. You are definitely high to think there is some grand conspiracy amongst scientists because that’s all we ever hear about, those super rich and corrupted scientists LOL. Oh wait.

 

And the nuclear/pyramid comparison is just, well, dumb because it makes zero sense in the grand context of what’s being talked about here. 
 

Save the tinfoil act for your nationalist buddies on Facebook. 

1 hour ago, dwightlooi said:

Why not? When it is not a problem to begin with and doing otherwise is hugely expensive and of minimal benefit? It is in fact silly to choose a vastly more expensive solution to what is essentially a non-problem. Put another way, we can totally clean up nuclear test sites rather than simply make them off limits. But it is a so expensive in exchange for a remote and largely useless plot of land you simply just put up a few signs and call it a day. Not just us, the Russians, the Chinese and everyone else does that. I have no problems with it. I'll rather talk about lead contamination of drinking water or Oxides of Nitrogen in the air than worry about non-issues like nuclear waste or Carbon Emissions.

Again, just dumb “logic” on every level but again, I’m not even surprised at this point. 

[surreal1272]

2 hours ago, dwightlooi said:

Two things... We spend billions on placating environmental idiots on a non-issue -- that's nothing new. You can spend millions on trying to accommodate a turtle who leaves in an area bisected by a pipeline; it's as big and as tiny of a problem as you want to make it.

That fact is that we can simply take all the wastes, pile in in a the desert with a roof over it. The world wouldn't end and for 99.9999999% of the population it wouldn't be within 200 miles of anything they do. Maybe you can't live with that. I can.

Almost 8 billion people on this planet and you think nuclear power is the best option, like somehow we won’t use up all the usable land at some point and start looking at that previously unused land (like we’ve done too many times in the past) when we realize we screwed that up too because some alleged “smart” folks thought it was a good idea to just dump some nuclear waste here? You are a special one there Dwight. That’s all I will say about it at this point. 

1 hour ago, dwightlooi said:

Also, how has previously stellar Honda-Acura reliability been since they adopted those 1.5L turbo engines boosted to 21 psi in their Accord? I am sure their customers appreciate going from 5 stars to 3 stars...

That’s big talk about reliability coming from an Audi owner. 

Edited March 22, 2021 by surreal1272

[loki]

1 hour ago, dwightlooi said:

.

my notification said he quoted me.... i can't see it.  awwww loki sad.

Edited March 22, 2021 by loki
add image

[trinacriabob]

3 hours ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Japan...

This reminds me ... I really want to be able to go (which also implies getting into) Quebec this fall to see the amazing red, orange, and yellow leaf color spectacle.

 

[dwightlooi]

31 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

No. You are definitely high to think there is some grand conspiracy amongst scientists because that’s all we ever hear about, those super rich and corrupted scientists LOL. Oh wait.

 

And the nuclear/pyramid comparison is just, well, dumb because it makes zero sense in the grand context of what’s being talked about here. 
 

Save the tinfoil act for your nationalist buddies on Facebook. 

Again, just dumb “logic” on every level but again, I’m not even surprised at this point. 

It is not a conspiracy that people -- including people wearing white coats -- jump on a bandwagon for expediency of repute, monetary or career gains.

It is also not a conspiracy that practically ALL the repute, money and career opportunity for a "scientist" lies with supporting not contravening the Global Warming hypothesis and the massive political and social momentum it carries. As I have said, it is not very different from Wise Men supporting nonsense like the Earth Centric universe -- even Galileo (prudently) recanted his articulations to the contrary so he doesn't have to die or spend the rest of his life in a tower somewhere.

No tin foil hat needed to recognize the very simple fact that ALL the nuclear wastes mankind have made or will ever make can be put in a very small area that even if heavily polluted is not a problem for 99.9999% of the surface of the planet. That is good enough for me and for anyone with some common sense.

Edited March 22, 2021 by dwightlooi

[dwightlooi]

2 hours ago, loki said:

I know most people call it mixed, but really only because we have the illusion of property rights...at least when it's not the wealthy/influential against the gov. so because we don't have enshrined property rights in 99.999999% of the cases, we actually have socialism.... at least a weak form of it, just stop calling it mixed. lol

I said EXACTLY... then went on to implicate and berate a hero of the left from over 75 years ago without without actually naming him, his position or his political affiliation. But I guess it still hurts the moderator's leftist sensibilities.

[G. David Felt]

2 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Almost 8 billion people on this planet and you think nuclear power is the best option, like somehow we won’t use up all the usable land at some point and start looking at that previously unused land (like we’ve done too many times in the past) when we realize we screwed that up too because some alleged “smart” folks thought it was a good idea to just dump some nuclear waste here? You are a special one there Dwight. That’s all I will say about it at this point. 

That’s big talk about reliability coming from an Audi owner. 

@dwightlooi needs to watch WALL-E a perfect movie of how humanity can mess up the planet for good not caring about it for future generations.

WALL·E (2008) - IMDb

You can only waste so much before it catches up with us. After all we already have plastic mess in the ocean and along what was once beautiful beaches due to the I careless as the planet has plenty of space.

I have a hard time that anyone thinks this is OK to do to our planet as long as private companies make a profit at the ecologies expense.

When do we wake up to realize that if we want ourselves as well as our kids and grandkids and future generations after that to live in a clean healthy planet, we have to stop destroying it.

That sometimes means making the hard decisions about ease of use, cleaning up and recycling as well as looking at all green energy sources and preparing for both extreme cold and heat to insure humanity can stay alive and be warm.

Sad when we see marine life having to struggle due to the I Do Not Care about Society only myself Humans.

[oldshurst442]

2 hours ago, dwightlooi said:

. But I guess it still hurts the moderator's leftist sensibilities.

Phoque off with that shyte

There is no place for that kind of talk here.

Speak what you need to speak, but if you are proven to be an idiot, then you are an idiot...

Dont insult others for your idiocy...

 

 

 

Edited March 23, 2021 by oldshurst442

[oldshurst442]

6 hours ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Would also punch a Redwings fan in the face any day of the week. 

Habs fans certainly need a punch to the face.  Well...Habs fans of the '80s.  Today's Habs fans are just...well...you got to feel sorry for them.  More pathetic than Habs fans are Maple Leafs fans.  

Ive heard though, the absolute worst fans are Bruins fans (from Boston....Im a good fan as Im...not from there...) and Flyer's fans.  Well...Ive heard that Boston and Philly sports teams fanatics in general are jerks.

So...could I make a suggestion?  Wouldnt you rather punch a  Bruins and Flyers fans in the face instead? 

[oldshurst442]

12 hours ago, ykX said:

I have been at local dealership over the weekend.  Saw first Mach 1.  Was fully loaded and dealer marked it up another $10k as "market adjustment" up to $70k total.  Simply crazy.

 

Crazy. Yes!  Even crazier if there is gonna be a buyer for it at that price.

But it is such a niiiiice car though.  Wouldnt mind owning it.  

[surreal1272]

2 hours ago, dwightlooi said:

I said EXACTLY... then went on to implicate and berate a hero of the left from over 75 years ago without without actually naming him, his position or his political affiliation. But I guess it still hurts the moderator's leftist sensibilities.

No. It’s because you were talking out of your ass. Someone who calls themselves “Alt-Right” can take an immediate dismissal from any serious conversation here because you’re not interested in actual facts. You’re interested in trying to sound right about literally everything that is (most of the time) a direct contradiction of the actual facts (like your climate change and scientists associated with it). Again, you’re not fooling anyone here with the obvious slant you constantly try to push here. Don’t blame your ignorance on “leftists”. You did that all on your own and it’s only gotten worse since your boy got the boot almost five months ago. 

3 hours ago, dwightlooi said:

It is not a conspiracy that people -- including people wearing white coats -- jump on a bandwagon for expediency of repute, monetary or career gains.

It is also not a conspiracy that practically ALL the repute, money and career opportunity for a "scientist" lies with supporting not contravening the Global Warming hypothesis and the massive political and social momentum it carries. As I have said, it is not very different from Wise Men supporting nonsense like the Earth Centric universe -- even Galileo (prudently) recanted his articulations to the contrary so he doesn't have to die or spend the rest of his life in a tower somewhere.

No tin foil hat needed to recognize the very simple fact that ALL the nuclear wastes mankind have made or will ever make can be put in a very small area that even if heavily polluted is not a problem for 99.9999% of the surface of the planet. That is good enough for me and for anyone with some common sense.

Says the person who jumped on the Alt-Right bandwagon, the same group who actually believe in “alternative facts”. Your opinion on this is worth about as much as Giuliani speaking in front of a Landscaping business with his “facts” about voter fraud. 

Edited March 23, 2021 by surreal1272

[oldshurst442]

10 hours ago, ccap41 said:

Redwings fan?!?

Back when we were in the same division and it was a great rivalry, home games against Detroit were known as "punch a Redwings fan in the face day".

Isnt hockey great?  

Such a strong emotion that the game gives us, that we want to punch our opponent's fans in the face.

I mean, in football, there are some team's fans you wanna clobber.  Eagle's fans.  Raider's fans. Some say Cowboy's fans.  But that is where the hatred ends. 

In hockey though...EVERYBODY wants to bash in EVERYBODY's face in.    

Yeah...Hockey is awesome!   You could feel the love in the air.   

On 3/21/2021 at 8:44 PM, trinacriabob said:

I have never had a thing for most of Oceania.

Especially when planes got better and they decided to make the trip from LAX or SFO nonstop.  I can't sit on a plane, in the economy cabin, for 14 hours.  My limit is about 11 or 12.

The thought of going somewhat appealed to me when I was younger and they used to do it in 2 segments:  Los Angeles to Honolulu, and Honolulu to Australia (SYD, MEL, etc.)

However, as far as Oceania goes, I might like to go to places like Bora Bora or Pago Pago.

Bora Bora - French Polynesia

Pago Pago - American Samoa

Beautiful.  

Just beautiful.

Bora Bora and the big mountain in the background and it looks like King Kong could reside there.

Pago Pago and it looks like the calm before a nasty torrential rain storm. 

[balthazar]

[G. David Felt]

13 hours ago, ykX said:

I have been at local dealership over the weekend.  Saw first Mach 1.  Was fully loaded and dealer marked it up another $10k as "market adjustment" up to $70k total.  Simply crazy.

 

You would think if they want to keep it on the floor as an attractor for people to come in and look at and then possibly buy something else, then just put a sign on it that says NOT FOR SALE.

Then later once the excitement has worn off, sell it for MSRP if possible. Doing things like this would be a I WILL NOT BUY FROM YOU thing.

This is the kind of crap that makes me walk away from a dealership due to stupidity like this. IDIOTS! ?

[oldshurst442]

3 hours ago, trinacriabob said:

This reminds me ... I really want to be able to go (which also implies getting into) Quebec this fall to see the amazing red, orange, and yellow leaf color spectacle.

Yeah. Its awesome.  I know you wanna visit Quebec for other reasons too, but if its ONLY to see the fall colours with the leaves changing, Vermont does it nice too if our borders arent open still by then. 

[G. David Felt]

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

Yeah. Its awesome.  I know you wanna visit Quebec for other reasons too, but if its ONLY to see the fall colours with the leaves changing, Vermont does it nice too if our borders arent open still by then. 

One Day I want to get up to come eat at your place and talk auto's. Would be a blast! Hopefully you have some big dishes since I am a big eater!  

[oldshurst442]

^^^

  I could arrange that!

 

[balthazar]

1 hour ago, David said:

Doing things like this would be a I WILL NOT BUY FROM YOU thing.

Not sure I get what the objection is. Isn't that the same ballpark you yourself are willing to pay for a Rivian?
Are BE dealers 'non-idiots' because their 'market adjustment' is baked into the sticker already?? ?

[G. David Felt]

15 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Not sure I get what the objection is. Isn't that the same ballpark you yourself are willing to pay for a Rivian?
Are BE dealers 'non-idiots' because their 'market adjustment' is baked into the sticker already?? ?

Very clear, dealership days are numbered for those that think people will buy crazy marked up auto's.

Rivian states a price and if you want that product, you pay that price, not $10K over the stated price which the stupid Ford Dealer is trying to gouge out of a customer. So yes this Ford dealer is an IDIOT! People need to go to dealers that do not do this and give their business to dealerships that respect the buying process and not gouging for dollars.

[balthazar]

But ALL battery electric prices are crazy marked-up!
Kia wants 82% markup on their BE Kona, at least the Mach 1 markup is only 16% !! ?

Edited March 23, 2021 by balthazar

[balthazar]

1 hour ago, David said:

dealership days are numbered for those that think people will buy crazy marked up auto's.

That's what SO MANY people said about Starbucks.

[daves87rs]

10 hours ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Agree completely. Would also punch a Redwings fan in the face any day of the week. 

Humor to divert from our debate...

[ykX]

8 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

Crazy. Yes!  Even crazier if there is gonna be a buyer for it at that price.

But it is such a niiiiice car though.  Wouldnt mind owning it.  

In a year they will be selling for MSRP or less.  Even Shelbys were going for MSRP after the first year and this is not as special as Shelby.

[ykX]

6 hours ago, David said:

not $10K over the stated price which the stupid Ford Dealer is trying to gouge out of a customer.

It is not gouging if there will be a person willing to pay that kind of money for this car.  It is called demand and supply.

I would say gouging is when people sell necessary for livelihood items during shortage, like people were selling masks and hand sanitizer 10-20 times the real price during the beginning  of pandemic.  Mach 1 is basically a luxury item, not something someone needs to survive.

[oldshurst442]

5 hours ago, balthazar said:

That's what SO MANY people said about Starbucks.

You could buy automobiles at Starbuck's now?

Since when?  ?

 

 

Edited March 23, 2021 by oldshurst442

[surreal1272]

7 hours ago, balthazar said:

Not sure I get what the objection is. Isn't that the same ballpark you yourself are willing to pay for a Rivian?
Are BE dealers 'non-idiots' because their 'market adjustment' is baked into the sticker already?? ?

You know good and well that is not even close to the same thing and I think Dave covered nicely as to why that is the case. Ford bakes in a mark up already as will Rivian. The problem, and CLEAR difference here, is there greedy ass Ford dealership milking an already marked up MSRP by an additional 15%. If you don’t see the problem, as well as the difference, there then I don’t know what else can be said at this point. When all you seem to want to find is bad stuff, then that is all you will get.

6 hours ago, balthazar said:

That's what SO MANY people said about Starbucks.

Except his statement is becoming more true by the year.

[balthazar]

I dunno; Mach 1 was already $60K. That's unquestionably in the 'disposable income' range. I doubt the bottom line (# of customers) would change much if it were $70K from the factory. And if 'market adjustments' didn't work, dealers would discontinue the practice. IOW; buyer is still paying $70K if it's all factory or factory/dealer; they can always walk away.

Most folk don't like to pay anymore than they have to, but it's inarguable that there is that pool who'll pay $60K for a $27K Mustang, or $100K for a $40K F-150. To some, its even bragging rights. ?

[ykX]

21 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

The problem, and CLEAR difference here, is there greedy ass Ford dealership milking an already marked up MSRP by an additional 15%.

The solution is very clear.  If I were on the market for Mach 1 I would just need to look a little farther than my local dealer and there you go - Mach 1 BELOW MSRP only 10 miles from were I live.  This dealer would get my business.

2021 Ford Mustang Mach 1 in Red Bank, NJ | New York City Ford Mustang | George Wall Ford Lincoln

 

[balthazar]

Competition / commerce. 

[A Horse With No Name]

10 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

Habs fans certainly need a punch to the face.  Well...Habs fans of the '80s.  Today's Habs fans are just...well...you got to feel sorry for them.  More pathetic than Habs fans are Maple Leafs fans.  

Ive heard though, the absolute worst fans are Bruins fans (from Boston....Im a good fan as Im...not from there...) and Flyer's fans.  Well...Ive heard that Boston and Philly sports teams fanatics in general are jerks.

So...could I make a suggestion?  Wouldnt you rather punch a  Bruins and Flyers fans in the face instead? 

No, I love the Bruins. Redwings fans and Cowboys fans (outside of CCAP) I would happily punch in the face. 

[A Horse With No Name]

14 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Almost 8 billion people on this planet and you think nuclear power is the best option, like somehow we won’t use up all the usable land at some point and start looking at that previously unused land (like we’ve done too many times in the past) when we realize we screwed that up too because some alleged “smart” folks thought it was a good idea to just dump some nuclear waste here? You are a special one there Dwight. That’s all I will say about it at this point. 

That’s big talk about reliability coming from an Audi owner. 

The turbo motors are easily damaged in accidents also, according to my claims adjuster daughter. One reason I didn't buy a Civic SI. But her room mate bought a Civic sI so....

14 hours ago, balthazar said:

It was a simple illustration of volume.

 

OEMs have a long history of saying/promising this and delivering that. Time will tell.

Follow the money, follow the money. 

[surreal1272]

37 minutes ago, ykX said:

The solution is very clear.  If I were on the market for Mach 1 I would just need to look a little farther than my local dealer and there you go - Mach 1 BELOW MSRP only 10 miles from were I live.  This dealer would get my business.

2021 Ford Mustang Mach 1 in Red Bank, NJ | New York City Ford Mustang | George Wall Ford Lincoln

 

True but the issue is not whether to check another dealer but the fact that the milking process exists there in the first place. 

38 minutes ago, balthazar said:

I dunno; Mach 1 was already $60K. That's unquestionably in the 'disposable income' range. I doubt the bottom line (# of customers) would change much if it were $70K from the factory. And if 'market adjustments' didn't work, dealers would discontinue the practice. IOW; buyer is still paying $70K if it's all factory or factory/dealer; they can always walk away.

Most folk don't like to pay anymore than they have to, but it's inarguable that there is that pool who'll pay $60K for a $27K Mustang, or $100K for a $40K F-150. To some, its even bragging rights. ?

That is missing my point entirely and you are moving the bar a bit. The MSRP is just that and the dealerships are just being greedy A-holes, disposable income or not. It is funny how you consider it to be “disposable” income at $60K yet two thirds of your favorite mode of transportation, full size pick ups, cross that threshold by leaps an bounds. Guess “disposable” is a subjective term. 

Edited March 23, 2021 by surreal1272

[balthazar]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

Most folk don't like to pay anymore than they have to, but it's inarguable that there is that pool who'll pay $60K for a $27K Mustang, or $100K for a $40K F-150. To some, its even bragging rights.

Trucks, at least, can make you money back (like in my case).

I'm among those who do not like paying more than I have to. I've only owned 1 new vehicle out of 22 because buying new is a nonsensical financial move... but yes; #23 will be brand new and yes; it's going to be mad expensive. I could get something off-lease that would do the job, but sometimes you treat yourself

But I'm also in the camp of 'if 2 parties agree on the price, that's what the price then is'. I abhor folk who say 'I don't like your price because you only paid X for it' - that's emphatically irrelevant. I had a customer once ask me if I offered a cash discount. I said 'yes; 10% on labor'. They returned 'You aren't in the 10% tax bracket!' Me: 'What does that have to do with anything?'
He’s been my customer probably 10 years now. Worked on his house, his business and his trucks.

Edited March 23, 2021 by balthazar

[trinacriabob]

13 hours ago, David said:

One Day I want to get up to come eat at your place and talk auto's. Would be a blast! Hopefully you have some big dishes since I am a big eater! 

+ 1

- - - - -

What I was really going to say is that, in terms of looks, the new Toyota Supra is a fright.

[surreal1272]

4 hours ago, balthazar said:

Trucks, at least, can make you money back (like in my case).

I'm among those who do not like paying more than I have to. I've only owned 1 new vehicle out of 22 because buying new is a nonsensical financial move... but yes; #23 will be brand new and yes; it's going to be mad expensive. I could get something off-lease that would do the job, but sometimes you treat yourself

But I'm also in the camp of 'if 2 parties agree on the price, that's what the price then is'. I abhor folk who say 'I don't like your price because you only paid X for it' - that's emphatically irrelevant. I had a customer once ask me if I offered a cash discount. I said 'yes; 10% on labor'. They returned 'You aren't in the 10% tax bracket!' Me: 'What does that have to do with anything?'
He’s been my customer probably 10 years now. Worked on his house, his business and his trucks.

Your case is 1 in 50. Feel free to reference the post I made last week about idiots who lift their trucks, bling it out, and put all sorts of useless accessories on it. Also, whether you buy new or used isn’t the point. It’s the out of date and out with the times dealerships who think it is perfectly fine to milk another $10K for something they, themselves, didn’t even make. Imagine being able to get that vehicle directly from the maker and cutting out the dealership con game. 

[G. David Felt]

12 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Your case is 1 in 50. Feel free to reference the post I made last week about idiots who lift their trucks, bling it out, and put all sorts of useless accessories on it. Also, whether you buy new or used isn’t the point. It’s the out of date and out with the times dealerships who think it is perfectly fine to milk another $10K for something they, themselves, didn’t even make. Imagine being able to get that vehicle directly from the maker and cutting out the dealership con game. 

Totally agree here and this is what corrupt dealerships fear is that the EV change over will cut them out as People will pay what they perceive as a fair price. Saturn was rated as one of the highest buying experiences due to the set prices, no gouging and the ability to come in and buy what you want at the marked price. Dealerships got a fair % as did GM and everyone felt good about it.

Tesla has done so well even with crappy fit n finish due to the amount of people not wanting to play the traditional dicker game or price gouging of a dealership. Look at the auto, build it the way they want and see what the price is and move forward to buy no matter what.

Mach 1 is a cool car, no doubt about it. Ford has it marketed as such at a MSRP price. They need to control the dealers by ensuring a fair profit for prepping and selling the auto and stop the gouging.

As I stated, if they want the auto on the dealership floor to bring people in, then put a Not For Sale sign on it over a crazy price of gouging the market.

You have hit the nail on the head Surreal, thank you.