Cadillac News: Cadillac's Dealers Hold On As de Nysschen's Plan Comes To Into Action

[William Maley]

Imagine you are a dealer sitting in a meeting and the head of the brand that you sell tells everyone that sales will get worse before they get better. Well that was what Johan de Nysschen, Cadillac's president told dealers last summer. Now dealers are getting a first look at 'worse' looks like.

Automotive News that a number of dealers have lost on incentive cash in the first quarter because they missed sales targets set by GM. Discounts and lease offers have also dried up as well. Previously, Cadillac offered deals on the ATS and CTS to help remove the massive stock sitting on dealer lots.

This is reflected in Cadillac's sales. ATS dropped 23 percent, while the CTS saw a 47 percent drop. Cadillac's marketing chief Uwe Ellinghaus said in a interview last month that April would be "the first month where we see the natural demand for ATS and CTS."

Now the slump in sales is part of de Nysschen's plan to get Cadillac on the right footing with a smaller supply of vehicle and incentives that are modest. The plan also includes better marketing and new products through 2020.

Dealers support de Nysschen's plan, but they are worried about how long the plan will take and whether it actually works.

"The dealer council has a lot of faith in Johan's long-term plan. But the sales decline is a bit of a tough pill to swallow with the industry rocking right now," said Keith Harvey, a member of Cadillac's National Dealer Council.

Source: Automotive News (Subscription Required)

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[Drew Dowdell]

If you're going to dry up incentives so drastically, you need to adjust the price as well.  I get that he doesn't want to appear like they are giving discounts for their cars, but then the MSRP needs to be adjusted.

[smk4565]

CTS sales in 2014 were the lowest ever.  And the ATS is selling at a slower rate than the 2004-2006 CTS that used to be good for 4,000 units a month at the same price point.  Both cars need upgraded interiors, a better take on the Art and Science look and both need to replace CUE.  GM should just pay Google or Apple $100 million to have them make an in car info-tainment system and be done with it.

 

The big problem is marketing, and after years of GM and others convincing everyone they need a crossover (because they got better margins on them than cars) they now have to convince people to buy a RWD (or AWD) sedan.  From the early 90s when the Explorer and Grand Cherokee hit, automakers made SUVs = luxury in advertising. 

 

So now, how does Cadillac make sedans cool and convince people to buy sedans instead of crossovers?  Because people are spending $40-50k on Honda Pilots, RX350s, Buick Enclaves, Tahoes, Grand Cherokees, etc.  And a lot of them don't use the 3rd row or tow anything.   Cadillac needs to get that crossover market buying their cars and say this is more luxurious, better handling, safer, better braking, more fuel efficient than a crossover, and bring those buyers in.

[Drew Dowdell]

I can't reveal any more than this;  A new CUE is very near on the horizon.

[William Maley]

I can't reveal any more than this;  A new CUE is very near on the horizon.

 

*And then, a chorus of angels sang.*

[ZL-1]

If you're going to dry up incentives so drastically, you need to adjust the price as well.  I get that he doesn't want to appear like they are giving discounts for their cars, but then the MSRP needs to be adjusted.

Not really; IMHO in Cadillac's case I think it's holding to MSRP and improving the content (i.e. eliminating the 'base models').

[Drew Dowdell]

 

If you're going to dry up incentives so drastically, you need to adjust the price as well.  I get that he doesn't want to appear like they are giving discounts for their cars, but then the MSRP needs to be adjusted.

Not really; IMHO in Cadillac's case I think it's holding to MSRP and improving the content (i.e. eliminating the 'base models').

 

 

Yes, but they still need to clear out the existing inventory on the lots. 

[Guest Z064ever]

We traded a 2008 CTS Premium Sport model on a  a 2015 Cadillac ATS Coupe (Performance) with various discounts, a good trade in, and an ultra low interest rate we feel it was an okay deal. To be  frank the problem with the new CTS and ATS are that their pricing is at least $5- 6000 too high, and the V models to come are $10- 15,000 too high.  End of story.

[smk4565]

CTS isn't priced too high, it is the cheapest car in the segment.

 

E-class:  $52,650

Jag XF:  $50,175

5-series: $49,950

GS350:   $48,600

Audi A6:  $46,200

CTS:        $45,345

[Z-06]

We traded a 2008 CTS Premium Sport model on a  a 2015 Cadillac ATS Coupe (Performance) with various discounts, a good trade in, and an ultra low interest rate we feel it was an okay deal. To be  frank the problem with the new CTS and ATS are that their pricing is at least $5- 6000 too high, and the V models to come are $10- 15,000 too high.  End of story.

 

This is the typical GM buyer mentality Cadillac has to meet or overcome.

[balthazar]

The big problem is marketing, and after years of GM and others convincing everyone they need a crossover (because they got better margins on them than cars) they now have to convince people to buy a RWD (or AWD) sedan.

So now, how does Cadillac make sedans cool and convince people to buy sedans instead of crossovers?

This is the very same boat Porsche (among others) is in. Porsche "convinced" everyone they need a SUV, and now they are primarily a SUV brand (65% sold last month were NOT cars)… because that's where the profits are. How will Porsche convince people that their sports cars are cool and convince them to buy them??

 

Or maybe… this is also not a problem.

[smk4565]

Porsche still makes big margins on SUVs, you can run a Macan up to $100k.  I mean SUVs in general.  People are spending $45-50k on a Jeep, Tahoe, Explorer, Pilot, etc and those aren't luxury brand products.  Cadillac should be able to steal those type of buyers and get them into a luxury car rather than a non-luxury SUV that costs the same money.

 

I think it easier to steal crossover buyers than 5-series/E-class buyers.  But Cadillac has to make sedans seem cooler and better than crossovers, and take those buyers away from Ford, Jeep, etc.

[balthazar]

Porsche flipped itself from a sports car maker to a sporty SUV maker. 

No doubt the profit margins are much higher than on the cars, which they were losing money on.

What Porsche should have done is strived to make their cars cool again and make them the best in their segment.

IMO, they took the easy way out.

 

Jeep started the luxury SUV segment in the 1960s. Regardless of what some think is a 'luxury brand', individual product determines a 'luxury' label. mercedes, obviously, makes a number of non-luxury sedans; just because they all have the same grilles/emblems doesn't make those models 'luxury'.

 

But today's market has largely & commonly placed SUVs on par with 'cars', erasing the 'detriment' a -say- 1975 Suburban or Land Rover had with a very plain & spartan interior and next to no amenities. Now a loaded Tahoe LTZ has just about all the common features lux SUV buyers are looking for and regardless of the emblem, it is outfitted & priced as a luxury product. Just like mercedes- not all are (or are not) luxury models under their respective brands.

Edited May 14, 2015 by balthazar

[smk4565]

Porsche charges $360 for a rear wiper on a 911, another $3,850 for alantera seat inserts and $1720 for painted air vent slats.  With stupid overpriced options like that, I can see why they make $20,000 margin per car. 

 

Are you suggesting that Cadillac follow Porsche and become primarily an SUV maker?  Then we wouldn't need GMC, you could just have 4 crossovers with the Escalade at Cadillac.

 

Cadillac is so hell bent on going after BMW, but it isn't working.  They would have an easier time getting people spending $40-50k on a domestic SUV to buy a CTS than getting a 5-series driver to buy a CTS.  They should re-target the advertising.

[balthazar]

You'd think with "stupid overpricing' like those examples, there would be no way POSSIBLE to lose money on sports cars… but Porsche said they were.

 

I'm not suggesting Cadillac build only SUVs, I'm stating that a brand known for a lot of hardcore sports cars now primarily exists to build SUVs. In other words, Porsche doesn't at all seem to mind being a SUV brand… and perhaps Cadillac doesn't mind also not selling proportionally as many cars as they used to. These things are really only of interest to Corporate planners, not enthusiasts or the general consumer.

 

I've said it before, I really don't care how many vehicles Cadillac sells, I just want the marque to be healthy and last another 125 years.

[SoCalCTS]

Johan "de Nissan" knows nothing. Infiniti still isn't a premium brand. Only an Americn can fix Cadillac. The new CT names are dumb. I'm convinced he is here to kill the Cadillac brand.

[G. David Felt]

Interesting times we live in as Jeep just announced they are going to build a luxury SUV to compete against the Germans and Cadillac.

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-05-13/jeep-plans-luxury-model-to-take-on-mercedes-suvs-and-range-rover

 

So it will be interesting to see how everyone else deals with the model change of who is a luxury maker and what auto's they actually sell.

 

I think this slow down is good as it will get rid of the dealers who really do not have the pockets to serve the luxury market and have survived based on just moving steel.

 

Better stronger network of dealers and those willing to invest in better showrooms and service centers will position Cadillac as a strong brand to compete against.

[ZL-1]

 

 

If you're going to dry up incentives so drastically, you need to adjust the price as well.  I get that he doesn't want to appear like they are giving discounts for their cars, but then the MSRP needs to be adjusted.

Not really; IMHO in Cadillac's case I think it's holding to MSRP and improving the content (i.e. eliminating the 'base models').

 

 

Yes, but they still need to clear out the existing inventory on the lots. 

 

True

[Cmicasa the Great]

If you're going to dry up incentives so drastically, you need to adjust the price as well.  I get that he doesn't want to appear like they are giving discounts for their cars, but then the MSRP needs to be adjusted.

 

See I believe they should stay the course, keep prices where they are, and add to their line up and sales will come. How and why would anyone think that car sales would rise in a market with high CUV sales? Cadillacicon1.png sales will improve per model when they offer other products that get people in the showroom. You have no idea how many SRX sales are converted from Escalade desires.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Cmicasa the Great

[Cmicasa the Great]

The largest issue with jumping with reinventing their cars  Cadillac trying to compete with competitors that simply offer more variety of product. The CTS would benefit, in terms of sales, as well as customer retention, if they offered the mix that Benz offers with the EClass . I can get an Eclass sedan, coupe, wagon, convertible, AMG , diesel, or hybrid. There is no way that we or they should expect sales in Eclass or 5 Series numbers if they don't have a similar line-up. 

The last gen CTS at least had a wagon which accounted for 3% of sales, a Coupe, 30% of sales, and a Vseries, 9% of sales, to add to the sedan'snumbers. This is what happens when you delete more than 40% of the options, you, ironically, no, logically, lose 40% of your sales. 

Just look at the numbers. Better yet! Hey JDN and GM look at the numbers. Take the absence of the Coupe, for instance. I bet you good money that the savings is nonexistent when the higher ATPs of those previous gen. trims come in to play. The CTS Coupe was priced about $4,000 more than the sedan if memory serves me. There justification for not having a Gen3 Coupe is most likely the fact that the ATS Coupe and ELR exist. So what? Benz AND BMW have mid size coupes. Benz and BMW have small two doors as well. They also have sport coupes. Of course both of theirs have convertible tops while Cadillac's can't even get a Damn sunroof.  The ELR is sexiest Coupe on the market and I can't even get a CTS Coupe style tilt sunroof. 

To hell with the constant ridicule, thoughts of buyer apprehension because of price or brand cachet. Anyone not understanding why Cadillac sales are down is just blind and not willing to look at the problem straight on; no car for my particular desire or niche? I'm going to the competition.

 

Offer a Stick in the CTS. Niches add up.  The thing is that these aren't even expensive in execution versus payoff. Quite frankly I would even suggest that in this particular situation, and as the only one in the class with a stick, they could charge slightly more than the automatic simply because they would have the only game in town. 

Being different is a shoe in for more sales, 1 piece at a time.

[Cmicasa the Great]

I can't reveal any more than this;  A new CUE is very near on the horizon.

 

 

U mean like the upcoming features and improvements like:

 

Improved system speed and performance

Faster, more accurate map loading and voice command execution

Faster service reprogramming

Redesigned navigation interfaces

Single press mute navigation voice/cancel route

Expanded cities with 3D maps

Bluetooth Media browsing  

[Cmicasa the Great]

You'd think with "stupid overpricing' like those examples, there would be no way POSSIBLE to lose money on sports cars… but Porsche said they were.

 

I'm not suggesting Cadillac build only SUVs, I'm stating that a brand known for a lot of hardcore sports cars now primarily exists to build SUVs. In other words, Porsche doesn't at all seem to mind being a SUV brand… and perhaps Cadillac doesn't mind also not selling proportionally as many cars as they used to. These things are really only of interest to Corporate planners, not enthusiasts or the general consumer.

 

I've said it before, I really don't care how many vehicles Cadillac sells, I just want the marque to be healthy and last another 125 years.

 

 

In another conversation elsewhere a person commented that GM is a "company that know(s) how to manufacturer and sell trucks" considering the fact that Cadillac, as a whole with regards to sales is losing market due to not having "trucks" (read more SUV/CUVs) to accommodate the trends of the luxury market currently. 

 

Who can honestly say that people would make some of the crazy comments being made about brand cachet or pricing if Cadillac sales were still in growth like 2013? Who can actually say that they would be if THEY had a new XT5, XT3, and XT7 on the lot Now? I mean Right Now. Just based on trends of CUV sales Cadillac would be selling at the very least more than Audi

[Cmicasa the Great]

 

We traded a 2008 CTS Premium Sport model on a  a 2015 Cadillac ATS Coupe (Performance) with various discounts, a good trade in, and an ultra low interest rate we feel it was an okay deal. To be  frank the problem with the new CTS and ATS are that their pricing is at least $5- 6000 too high, and the V models to come are $10- 15,000 too high.  End of story.

 

This is the typical GM buyer mentality Cadillac has to meet or overcome.

 

 

 

I call a lot of BS on what some people type pertaining to pricing . I'm all for expecting a DEAL. But seriously? At a Cadillac dealership? The very idea that someone would even say some of the things that are being said about pricing is proof positive that Cadillac has a problem of value shoppers coming off of the years from 2008 to now. I believe a great deal of it has to do with the previous CTS being a tweener. People need to realize that the Gen 2 CTS, because it was a tweener, lost almost every comparo the magazines threw at it *due to being simply to big when being compared to the 3series, thus more weight, slower performance, or being too "low rent" when being compared to the 5series, due to a $10,000 price gap. Cadillac upped the price, yes, but they also upped the car. Perceptions have to catch up with reality in this situation or we will see them go back to mediocre vehicles that can't actually compete in any way except pricing. People can't have it both ways.I think that the current car should have been named STS and the ATS should have taken the name CTS. Better yet, the CT name changes should have been implemented when the XTS first debuted so that their would be no confusion as to what was what and what was for whom.*

 

In the end Cadillac's shuffling of leaders may be the cause, but that seems to be on the mend with both Johan and Uwe heading the charge. I am confident that they will turn things around. I would offer that we reflect on what Johan said upon speaking to dealers last year. He warned that sales would get worse before they got better. I believe when rebooting a brand, thus time seemingly in proper fashion, it is absolutely unreasonable to believe anything else. 

 

Cadillac discounts have shriveled on anything but leftovers. The CTS is missing almost 40% of its previous line up without the couple, Vseries, or wagon. It is directly priced with the XTS, which unlike the DTS sitting next to the 05-10 STS , is actually a competent driver despite being FWD. Again, Rebooting without the Fritz Henderson/Brian Nesbit misaligned XTS will bring more focus on the brand. The ATS is the first real entry Cadillac has ever taken seriously in its segment. It needs to be allowed to gel. The issues that are brought up, normally in regards to its backseat are new one to the lunacy as before the 3series decided to go big, losing a great deal of it's "3seriesness" it was no larger in the back seat than the ATS.

 

If a buyer wants cheap go buy a Chevy, Honda or Honda. Heck premium? Lincoln or Buick. If you want cheap luxury then go buy used. I can promise you right now one can find a 2013 S550 for about $58,000 with about 23k on the odometer. Cadillac should not want you as a buyer if you can't stomach their prices for a competitive product. Mind you if they were still offering previous gen workmanship on the CTS, which wasn't bad, quite nice in fact, but not on the current car's level, then I would agree with your original assessment. They are not. They are offering vehicles now that are not only on par with the Germans, but in some areas surpassing them. Sales? Why are they not keeping up? They need better variety. Again, no coupe alone is losing them 30% of previous generation sales or trade in.

[Drew Dowdell]

 

I can't reveal any more than this;  A new CUE is very near on the horizon.

 

 

U mean like the upcoming features and improvements like:

 

Improved system speed and performance

Faster, more accurate map loading and voice command execution

Faster service reprogramming

Redesigned navigation interfaces

Single press mute navigation voice/cancel route

Expanded cities with 3D maps

Bluetooth Media browsing  

 

 

I'm talking about the guts that makes all of the above possible. 

[smk4565]

Cue needs to lose the touchscreen in favor of a clicky wheel.

 

Engines are the next phase that needs improvement.  In last months Car and Driver comparison the ATS coupe 3.6 got a 5 out of 10 in engine NVH, and a 5.6 seconds 0-60 time.   The comparable Audi S5 did 0-60 in 4.5 seconds and got a 9 in NVH.  The 335i (now 340i) was not in that test, but you know a BMW straight six is the gold standard of NVH and the 335i and C400 can do 0-60 in 4.8 or less.

 

I'd propose removing the 2.5 L and the 2.0T from the Cadillac lineup, making the new 335 hp V6 the base engine in the $35k ATS and $45k CTS, the plugin hybrid 2.0t becomes an option for the greenies with the 3.0 tt v6 making 400 hp an option.   The coming 500 hp TT V8 would be the ATS-V and CTS V-sport.   They need to drastically increase power.  Even Infiniti dropped the G25 model in favor of making the 328 hp V6 the base engine priced against a 240 hp BMW 328i because they knew they had to have wow factor just to get sales. 

[frogger]

Looks like when you copy html from GMI it keeps the links

[Drew Dowdell]

Cue needs to lose the touchscreen in favor of a clicky wheel.

 

Engines are the next phase that needs improvement.  In last months Car and Driver comparison the ATS coupe 3.6 got a 5 out of 10 in engine NVH, and a 5.6 seconds 0-60 time.   The comparable Audi S5 did 0-60 in 4.5 seconds and got a 9 in NVH.  The 335i (now 340i) was not in that test, but you know a BMW straight six is the gold standard of NVH and the 335i and C400 can do 0-60 in 4.8 or less.

 

I'd propose removing the 2.5 L and the 2.0T from the Cadillac lineup, making the new 335 hp V6 the base engine in the $35k ATS and $45k CTS, the plugin hybrid 2.0t becomes an option for the greenies with the 3.0 tt v6 making 400 hp an option.   The coming 500 hp TT V8 would be the ATS-V and CTS V-sport.   They need to drastically increase power.  Even Infiniti dropped the G25 model in favor of making the 328 hp V6 the base engine priced against a 240 hp BMW 328i because they knew they had to have wow factor just to get sales. 

 

The ATS 3.6 is being replace by the new 3.6 for 2016. 

[Cmicasa the Great]

 

Cue needs to lose the touchscreen in favor of a clicky wheel.

 

Engines are the next phase that needs improvement.  In last months Car and Driver comparison the ATS coupe 3.6 got a 5 out of 10 in engine NVH, and a 5.6 seconds 0-60 time.   The comparable Audi S5 did 0-60 in 4.5 seconds and got a 9 in NVH.  The 335i (now 340i) was not in that test, but you know a BMW straight six is the gold standard of NVH and the 335i and C400 can do 0-60 in 4.8 or less.

 

I'd propose removing the 2.5 L and the 2.0T from the Cadillac lineup, making the new 335 hp V6 the base engine in the $35k ATS and $45k CTS, the plugin hybrid 2.0t becomes an option for the greenies with the 3.0 tt v6 making 400 hp an option.   The coming 500 hp TT V8 would be the ATS-V and CTS V-sport.   They need to drastically increase power.  Even Infiniti dropped the G25 model in favor of making the 328 hp V6 the base engine priced against a 240 hp BMW 328i because they knew they had to have wow factor just to get sales. 

 

The ATS 3.6 is being replace by the new 3.6 for 2016. 

 

 

 

Yup. The only thing I wonder is WHY. JDN wants to distance the brand from GM, so why not take this opportunity to go exclusive to turbos outside of V and Escalade? 

 

2.0L TT could go from 220HP to 320HP

3.0L TT could go from 340HP detuned to 400HP

3.6L TT could go from 410 to 465HP

 

then bring in the TT V8 4.5L as a 500 to 600 HP engine.

 

My original point was why used the NA 3.6L with 335HP when they could just as easily go Cadillac exclusive with the 3.0L TT and more torque to boot 

[smk4565]

I would argue to replace the 200 hp 2.5 liter four cylinder and 270 hp 2.0T with the 335 hp V6 at those price points.  Make the V6 the value engine rather than the step up.  This way the least powerful Cadillac on market is 335 hp, and save the four cylinders for Chevy and Buick.

[Drew Dowdell]

I would argue to replace the 200 hp 2.5 liter four cylinder and 270 hp 2.0T with the 335 hp V6 at those price points.  Make the V6 the value engine rather than the step up.  This way the least powerful Cadillac on market is 335 hp, and save the four cylinders for Chevy and Buick.

 

Wait.. so BMW can peddle a 180hp 4-cylinder 320i, Audi can peddle a 220hp 4-cylinder A4, Mercedes can run a 241hp 4-cylinder C-Class.... but Cadillac must have a 335 hp V6 minimum?

[balthazar]

[goalposts so far in distance, can't see 'em from here]

[Z-06]

 

The ATS 3.6 is being replace by the new 3.6 for 2016. 

 

 

That engine is uncompetitive with the force-induced engines from the competitors.

[goalposts so far in distance, can't see 'em from here]

 

And he still soldiers on this site.

[smk4565]

 

I would argue to replace the 200 hp 2.5 liter four cylinder and 270 hp 2.0T with the 335 hp V6 at those price points.  Make the V6 the value engine rather than the step up.  This way the least powerful Cadillac on market is 335 hp, and save the four cylinders for Chevy and Buick.

 

Wait.. so BMW can peddle a 180hp 4-cylinder 320i, Audi can peddle a 220hp 4-cylinder A4, Mercedes can run a 241hp 4-cylinder C-Class.... but Cadillac must have a 335 hp V6 minimum?

 

 The bottom end Infiniti has 328 hp, so why not.  BMW doesn't have a sales problem, hey can pretty much do whatever they want and they keep on selling.  But how does Cadillac get more ATS and CTS sales?   Cadillac is already priced cheaper than Jaguar, Lexus and the Germans, they have to generate excitement some how, so why not more power.

 

And they'll probably make the alpha chassis Camaro with a standard 325 hp V6 for $25,000, yet not put a standard V6 in a Cadillac, that's whack.

 

Let's see the outrage if they put a 200 hp 4-cylinder in the Camaro and made the Camaro SS a 330 hp V6.  Because if that engine lineup is good enough for Cadillac then it should be more than enough for Chevrolet.  And the 90s Camaro had 200 hp base, 305 optional, so they can get those same numbers with better fuel economy now with smaller engines.  In the 90s the Seville/Deville had 275-300 hp, and today the CTS/XTS are making 270-304 hp, so if 90s level horsepower is okay for Cadillac, why not do the same for Chevy. 

Edited May 14, 2015 by smk4565

[Z-06]

 

 

We traded a 2008 CTS Premium Sport model on a  a 2015 Cadillac ATS Coupe (Performance) with various discounts, a good trade in, and an ultra low interest rate we feel it was an okay deal. To be  frank the problem with the new CTS and ATS are that their pricing is at least $5- 6000 too high, and the V models to come are $10- 15,000 too high.  End of story.

 

This is the typical GM buyer mentality Cadillac has to meet or overcome.

 

 

 

Mind you if they were still offering previous gen workmanship on the CTS, which wasn't bad, quite nice in fact, but not on the current car's level, then I would agree with your original assessment. They are not.

 

What original assessment?

[Drew Dowdell]

 

 

I would argue to replace the 200 hp 2.5 liter four cylinder and 270 hp 2.0T with the 335 hp V6 at those price points.  Make the V6 the value engine rather than the step up.  This way the least powerful Cadillac on market is 335 hp, and save the four cylinders for Chevy and Buick.

 

Wait.. so BMW can peddle a 180hp 4-cylinder 320i, Audi can peddle a 220hp 4-cylinder A4, Mercedes can run a 241hp 4-cylinder C-Class.... but Cadillac must have a 335 hp V6 minimum?

 

 The bottom end Infiniti has 328 hp, so why not.  BMW doesn't have a sales problem, hey can pretty much do whatever they want and they keep on selling.  But how does Cadillac get more ATS and CTS sales?   Cadillac is already priced cheaper than Jaguar, Lexus and the Germans, they have to generate excitement some how, so why not more power.

 

And they'll probably make the alpha chassis Camaro with a standard 325 hp V6 for $25,000, yet not put a standard V6 in a Cadillac, that's whack.

 

Let's see the outrage if they put a 200 hp 4-cylinder in the Camaro and made the Camaro SS a 330 hp V6.  Because if that engine lineup is good enough for Cadillac then it should be more than enough for Chevrolet.  And the 90s Camaro had 200 hp base, 305 optional, so they can get those same numbers with better fuel economy now with smaller engines.  In the 90s the Seville/Deville had 275-300 hp, and today the CTS/XTS are making 270-304 hp, so if 90s level horsepower is okay for Cadillac, why not do the same for Chevy. 

 

 

How's that base engine strategy worked out for Infiniti so far?

 

The alpha Camaro is almost certainly coming with a 2.0T as the base engine. Also expect it to drop massive amounts of weight.  I am completely guessing here, but I bet it will be slightly larger than the ATS but weigh about the same or less. 

 

Now.. I agree with ditching the 2.5 from the ATS, but the 2.0T as a base is fine... in fact the 2.0T is probably the best match for that car unless you're going for a V-series (and I just spent a day and a half driving the ATS-V, more on that later).  If Cadillac wants to keep something in the 200hp range they should use the new 1.6T instead. 

[Drew Dowdell]

 

 

The ATS 3.6 is being replace by the new 3.6 for 2016. 

 

 

That engine is uncompetitive with the force-induced engines from the competitors.

[goalposts so far in distance, can't see 'em from here]

 

And he still soldiers on this site.

 

 

There are 4 engine choices in the ATS with 2 more coming in the future. If you don't like that V6, there will be no less than 5 other engines to choose from. In my experience, the 2.0T is the best choice in the ATS, excluding the V-series, as it keeps the car lighter and still has satisfying thrust. 

 

I also want to say that you are badly pre-judging it. There is more to the powertrain than just the engine and my assessment of the new 8-speed auto coming to Cadillac is that it is a whole new level of good. In sport mode it can shift as fast or faster than the Porsche DCT and it has a wider range of gear ratios than the previous 6-speed. 

[Z-06]

 

 

 

The ATS 3.6 is being replace by the new 3.6 for 2016. 

 

 

That engine is uncompetitive with the force-induced engines from the competitors.

[goalposts so far in distance, can't see 'em from here]

 

And he still soldiers on this site.

 

 

There are 4 engine choices in the ATS with 2 more coming in the future. If you don't like that V6, there will be no less than 5 other engines to choose from. In my experience, the 2.0T is the best choice in the ATS, excluding the V-series, as it keeps the car lighter and still has satisfying thrust. 

 

I also want to say that you are badly pre-judging it. There is more to the powertrain than just the engine and my assessment of the new 8-speed auto coming to Cadillac is that it is a whole new level of good. In sport mode it can shift as fast or faster than the Porsche DCT and it has a wider range of gear ratios than the previous 6-speed. 

 

 

Drew, a transmission cannot add to what the engine lacks. The competitors are already offering 8 speeds, don't have SAE numbers to abide by, thereby providing more power than advertised. Is it cheating? Yes, you bet it is, but GM has to respond and the 3.6 is a 38 special in the battle of 45s.

 

Besides that, isn't that's what got GM into problem? The lack of full commitment. The peak torque of the new 3.6 is less than the torque of the 2.0T. That is unacceptable. The truth is this engine as much as GM claims is new, which it is possibly, is not going to be an exclusive Cadillac and therefore was "needed" by the bean counters to make financial sense.

 

"If you don't like that V6, there will be no less than 5 other engines to choose from." Why stop there? No, I will find some other company that will. And that's going to be everyone else except Cadillac. I'll give you even better, why even offer that engine? It'll save you typing to defend that decision, since ATS has already 5 other engine choices, according to you.

 

We have had this discussion before, and there's no contest that GM has messed this one up. Even the Cadillac Fan here who is supporter of the two bozos in charge at its helm claims that too.

[smk4565]

Let's look at this way.  The 3.6 V6 can't compete with the supercharged Audi and Jaguar V6s, the bi-turbo Merc V6 or the BMW turbo six that just got a power bump, all those engines make way more torque at a much lower rpm.

 

This leaves 2 options.  Don't even offer the 3.6 liter, go from 2.0T base engine to a 3.0 TT V6 mid range.  Or option 2 is put the 3.6 V6 against the competitors 240 hp turbo fours and and remove the 2.0T engine.

 

Cadillac doesn't need both engines.  I'd rather see them use the 3.6 V6 as the base engine, then the marketing people can promote how Cadillac has a standard V6 and has standard 335 hp, while the competition has 4 cylinders, less power, etc.  And if Chevy and Buick are using turbo 4s, it makes Cadillac look better compared to them. 

[G. David Felt]

Let's look at this way.  The 3.6 V6 can't compete with the supercharged Audi and Jaguar V6s, the bi-turbo Merc V6 or the BMW turbo six that just got a power bump, all those engines make way more torque at a much lower rpm.

 

This leaves 2 options.  Don't even offer the 3.6 liter, go from 2.0T base engine to a 3.0 TT V6 mid range.  Or option 2 is put the 3.6 V6 against the competitors 240 hp turbo fours and and remove the 2.0T engine.

 

Cadillac doesn't need both engines.  I'd rather see them use the 3.6 V6 as the base engine, then the marketing people can promote how Cadillac has a standard V6 and has standard 335 hp, while the competition has 4 cylinders, less power, etc.  And if Chevy and Buick are using turbo 4s, it makes Cadillac look better compared to them. 

That works for the US market, but what about all the Morons in Europe that allow taxing on the size of the engine. The 2.0T is perfect for that market. You OK with it being there?

[Z064ever]

 

We traded a 2008 CTS Premium Sport model on a  a 2015 Cadillac ATS Coupe (Performance) with various discounts, a good trade in, and an ultra low interest rate we feel it was an okay deal. To be  frank the problem with the new CTS and ATS are that their pricing is at least $5- 6000 too high, and the V models to come are $10- 15,000 too high.  End of story.

 

This is the typical GM buyer mentality Cadillac has to meet or overcome.

 

You guys are so smart.  GM is following your line, and it is sinking.  Wisdome does not come from spouting the company line it comes with seeing reality, and reacting properly.  Lexus got to be a major player by coming in lower, and giving more.  Cadillac was doing that and getting built back up in volume and transaction price.  Low and behold the geniuses come in, say that is wrong let them pay more, and they will come. Guess what, wrong again.  By the way  I can negotiate and get incentives from BMW dealers and etc., but that just flies in the face or your "logic," and you are wiser than I.  I bow to the superior marketing and sales intellect.

[smk4565]

 

That works for the US market, but what about all the Morons in Europe that allow taxing on the size of the engine. The 2.0T is perfect for that market. You OK with it being there?

 

They could use the 2.0T for foreign market, and not offer the 3.6 V6.  But without a competitive diesel (or diesels) they have no shot in Europe anyway.

[William Maley]

Ok, I need to throw in some sense into this conversation before I get really angry.

 

 

 

 

We traded a 2008 CTS Premium Sport model on a  a 2015 Cadillac ATS Coupe (Performance) with various discounts, a good trade in, and an ultra low interest rate we feel it was an okay deal. To be  frank the problem with the new CTS and ATS are that their pricing is at least $5- 6000 too high, and the V models to come are $10- 15,000 too high.  End of story.

 

This is the typical GM buyer mentality Cadillac has to meet or overcome.

 

You guys are so smart.  GM is following your line, and it is sinking.  Wisdome does not come from spouting the company line it comes with seeing reality, and reacting properly.  Lexus got to be a major player by coming in lower, and giving more.  Cadillac was doing that and getting built back up in volume and transaction price.  Low and behold the geniuses come in, say that is wrong let them pay more, and they will come. Guess what, wrong again.  By the way  I can negotiate and get incentives from BMW dealers and etc., but that just flies in the face or your "logic," and you are wiser than I.  I bow to the superior marketing and sales intellect.

 

 

A few points:

 

1. "Lexus got to be a major player by coming in lower, and giving more."

That they did, but also they had a little bit luck as well. If Lexus was to launch before or after 1989, would they have achieved the same success? Who knows. But in due time, Lexus start to creep in price. Consider this: The 1989 LS 400 started around $38,000, while three years later, the price increased to $45,000 - inching closer to the competitors.

Also, I would argue that Lexus at the moment doesn't give more in terms of features for the price.

 

2. "GM is following your line, and it is sinking." - Wait, GM is following our line? When did we get a red telephone to de Nysschen? I need to talk to him about this great idea I had for the SRX-V.

 

Also, I don't think GM is following our line. I think they're going with what they know and learned from 'hopefully' past experiences. 

3. "Cadillac was doing that and getting built back up in volume and transaction price. Low and behold the geniuses come in, say that is wrong let them pay more, and they will come."

I don't think anyone at Cadillac is saying that. de Nysschen has said that he is planning to cut back on incentives and deals to raise Cadillac's prestige back up, along with boosting resale values. NOT TO INCREASE SALES!!!

 

4. "By the way I can negotiate and get incentives from BMW dealers and etc."

 

The reason you can negotiate and get incentives from BMW? They're currently locked in battle with Mercedes-Benz to reclaim the best selling luxury make in the U.S. Consider these numbers: In 2014, BMW outsold Mercedes-Benz by 9,347 vehicles (333,738 vs. 330,391). A lot of that came down to lease deals and incentives. 

 

 

 

 

That works for the US market, but what about all the Morons in Europe that allow taxing on the size of the engine. The 2.0T is perfect for that market. You OK with it being there?

 

They could use the 2.0T for foreign market, and not offer the 3.6 V6.  But without a competitive diesel (or diesels) they have no shot in Europe anyway.

 

 

Hmm.. about that diesel engine.

de Nysschen said a diesel is coming in 2019 at LA

Also, Cadillac's chief engineer says four and six-cylinder diesel engines are coming

 

I'm going to stop here before I start yelling at my screen, which isn't good for anyone.

[Z-06]

 

 

We traded a 2008 CTS Premium Sport model on a  a 2015 Cadillac ATS Coupe (Performance) with various discounts, a good trade in, and an ultra low interest rate we feel it was an okay deal. To be  frank the problem with the new CTS and ATS are that their pricing is at least $5- 6000 too high, and the V models to come are $10- 15,000 too high.  End of story.

 

This is the typical GM buyer mentality Cadillac has to meet or overcome.

 

You guys are so smart.  GM is following your line, and it is sinking.  Wisdome does not come from spouting the company line it comes with seeing reality, and reacting properly.  Lexus got to be a major player by coming in lower, and giving more.  Cadillac was doing that and getting built back up in volume and transaction price.  Low and behold the geniuses come in, say that is wrong let them pay more, and they will come. Guess what, wrong again.  By the way  I can negotiate and get incentives from BMW dealers and etc., but that just flies in the face or your "logic," and you are wiser than I.  I bow to the superior marketing and sales intellect.

 

 

Those are not similar things mister. If you would have said all luxury vehicles are over-priced the comment would have not arisen. No one is doubting or caring about your Henry Kissinger like negotiating skill.

 

It was a statement that can be read either way depending on what the goal Cadillac wants, your wise-dome (sorry wise-dumb or is it wisdom) decided to Low and Behold the wrong way. And besides that go and educate yourself on my prior posts, to save your energy just go a few ones above and you can see whether I parrot what GM feeds.

 

For your uninformative Lexus comment, the only reason(s) Lexus outsells other luxury brands is/are FWD vehicles - namely two of them - ES and RX. The rest of the vehicles mostly trail behind the more expensive German competitors despite of, according to you, giving more while cuming in lower.

[Drew Dowdell]

 

 

 

 

The ATS 3.6 is being replace by the new 3.6 for 2016. 

 

 

That engine is uncompetitive with the force-induced engines from the competitors.

[goalposts so far in distance, can't see 'em from here]

 

And he still soldiers on this site.

 

 

There are 4 engine choices in the ATS with 2 more coming in the future. If you don't like that V6, there will be no less than 5 other engines to choose from. In my experience, the 2.0T is the best choice in the ATS, excluding the V-series, as it keeps the car lighter and still has satisfying thrust. 

 

I also want to say that you are badly pre-judging it. There is more to the powertrain than just the engine and my assessment of the new 8-speed auto coming to Cadillac is that it is a whole new level of good. In sport mode it can shift as fast or faster than the Porsche DCT and it has a wider range of gear ratios than the previous 6-speed. 

 

 

Drew, a transmission cannot add to what the engine lacks. The competitors are already offering 8 speeds, don't have SAE numbers to abide by, thereby providing more power than advertised. Is it cheating? Yes, you bet it is, but GM has to respond and the 3.6 is a 38 special in the battle of 45s.

 

Besides that, isn't that's what got GM into problem? The lack of full commitment. The peak torque of the new 3.6 is less than the torque of the 2.0T. That is unacceptable. The truth is this engine as much as GM claims is new, which it is possibly, is not going to be an exclusive Cadillac and therefore was "needed" by the bean counters to make financial sense.

 

"If you don't like that V6, there will be no less than 5 other engines to choose from." Why stop there? No, I will find some other company that will. And that's going to be everyone else except Cadillac. I'll give you even better, why even offer that engine? It'll save you typing to defend that decision, since ATS has already 5 other engine choices, according to you.

 

We have had this discussion before, and there's no contest that GM has messed this one up. Even the Cadillac Fan here who is supporter of the two bozos in charge at its helm claims that too.

 

 

2.5, 2.0T, 3.6, 3.0TT (highly likely), 3.6TT, 2.0T-Hybrid, I4-Diesel, V6-Diesel

There is nothing messed up with the 3.6 V6 as long as other options are available too.  There is nothing wrong with offering an additional option.  Don't like it? Don't buy it.

 

And yes, the engine is remaining Cadillac exclusive for now and when it does get shared will only be shared with upper end Buick... something along the lines of an Avenir and possibly Lacrosse.

[Drew Dowdell]

Cadillac is very intentionally NOT following the German model at this point... they are actively thumbing their nose at it.

[smk4565]

It appears as if the 2016 Camaro is getting the 3.6 liter V6 with 330 hp.  So it won't be a Cadillac exclusive.  The Camaro will have the 270 hp turbo four as the base engine.   Even if Cadilac drops the 2.5 liter ATS, the Camaro would have the same base engine and same step up engine as the ATS/CTS.  To me a Cadillac should be better than a Chevy. 

 

I'd make the V6 the base Cadillac engine (sort of the rental spec model) and the performance trim would jump up to a 3.0TT V6.  ATS-V and CTS/CT6 V-sport models can be a TT V8 with 475 hp and dump the 3.6TT.

[balthazar]

To me audi should be better than a VW, but for some reason you can get a VW 2.0 engine all the way up to an A6.

 

Or…. this is also not a problem.

[daves87rs]

Here, I'll keep it simple: The line up needs more shake up. If GM wants to keep comparing themselves to other automakers, then they will just get their asses handed to them.

 

Lincoln, for as useless as it is, at least will get some direction and a chance to go it's own way to dive into the market. It's why I think it has a chance to do something.....

 

The problem with caddy is that it is trying to be in a market that no one cares about it. Comparing it to the Benz and Beemer boys is that they are still popular and old school (style wise) Yet, I still see talks of numbers...

 

 

While there is nothing wrong with chasing benchmarks (can still check some of those boxes), some new models might help here as well. Maybe shake up the image a little.....edgy, sporty, and fun (with a little cred to that truck that still sells. Bring back some emotion to a bunch of letters...

 

 

(okay, time to get off my soapbox and get yelled at) I'm a bit emotional here, simply to the fact that I think Caddy has stalled due to lack of change......

[daves87rs]

Cadillac is very intentionally NOT following the German model at this point... they are actively thumbing their nose at it.

 

 

Which would be a good start....

[daves87rs]

 

 

We traded a 2008 CTS Premium Sport model on a  a 2015 Cadillac ATS Coupe (Performance) with various discounts, a good trade in, and an ultra low interest rate we feel it was an okay deal. To be  frank the problem with the new CTS and ATS are that their pricing is at least $5- 6000 too high, and the V models to come are $10- 15,000 too high.  End of story.

 

This is the typical GM buyer mentality Cadillac has to meet or overcome.

 

You guys are so smart.  GM is following your line, and it is sinking.  Wisdome does not come from spouting the company line it comes with seeing reality, and reacting properly.  Lexus got to be a major player by coming in lower, and giving more.  Cadillac was doing that and getting built back up in volume and transaction price.  Low and behold the geniuses come in, say that is wrong let them pay more, and they will come. Guess what, wrong again.  By the way  I can negotiate and get incentives from BMW dealers and etc., but that just flies in the face or your "logic," and you are wiser than I.  I bow to the superior marketing and sales intellect.

 

 

 

Well good, then don't forget to stay down then. Sadly, it is marketing that is eating them alive....cause it's sure not the product. The only product I see overpriced now is the CTS, but that is more based on the fact that it was the entry level product before the ATS, so those before might have noticed the increase there. Creating an image for the cars would be nice though...

 

I'm not so sure where you see this "sinking" part of GM,as everything can be adjusted on the fly here.......