New York Auto Show: 2016 Cadillac CT6: Comments

[Cmicasa the Great]

Yes Drew... I see that.  C&D tested a 2.0L Turbo... and it came up as Curb weight: 3731 lb. Considering the CT6 is supposed to be about 70lbs lighter than the CTS.. then 3660 = DAMN!!!

 

 http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2014-cadillac-cts-20-turbo-test-review

[smk4565]

I doubt the CT6 is going to post sub 4 second 0-60 times with the twin turbo V6.  The CTS-V is in that 3.8 second territory, the CT6 isn't going to run that fast.  And it may weigh 3700 lbs in base trim with a 4 cylinder, but add a TT V6, AWD and you are probably at 4,000, then add power recline rear seats, 30 speakers, etc and I bet it is like 4200 lbs.  I suspect more like 4.5 seconds 0-60 like a CTS V-sport does.

 

What I don't get is what the car is positioned against.  Everyone talks weight and sportiness, but it doesn't look like a sports car.  If it looked like a Maserati Ghibli or A7 or CLS, I could see the point of marking the sporting credentials.  But the CT6 looks like a big CTS, it looks more like an executive luxury sedan, not a sports car.   We heard about how the ATS and CTS were lighter than the 3-series and 5-series, but ATS and CTS sales are in the tank, and BMW keeps surging forward.

[Cmicasa the Great]

I doubt the CT6 is going to post sub 4 second 0-60 times with the twin turbo V6.  The CTS-V is in that 3.8 second territory, the CT6 isn't going to run that fast.  And it may weigh 3700 lbs in base trim with a 4 cylinder, but add a TT V6, AWD and you are probably at 4,000, then add power recline rear seats, 30 speakers, etc and I bet it is like 4200 lbs.  I suspect more like 4.5 seconds 0-60 like a CTS V-sport does.

 

What I don't get is what the car is positioned against.  Everyone talks weight and sportiness, but it doesn't look like a sports car.  If it looked like a Maserati Ghibli or A7 or CLS, I could see the point of marking the sporting credentials.  But the CT6 looks like a big CTS, it looks more like an executive luxury sedan, not a sports car.   We heard about how the ATS and CTS were lighter than the 3-series and 5-series, but ATS and CTS sales are in the tank, and BMW keeps surging forward.

 

The CTS-V hasn't been tested yet.. the ATS-V was quoted as having a 0-60 in the 3.7 range.. with a 3.6L TT at 464HP and just RWD, and an est 3700lb weight. The CT6 TTV6, will be coming in at about 200-250lbs more, but an adjustable AWD system, capable in Sport mode of sending 80/20 to RWD/FWD.. just enough to give proper performance traction. And my bet is that the 400/400 number is gonna get a lift as well

 

 

Its a 7series, A8, LS460, and Xj competitor.. and JDN sees the LWB S-Class as over them all... as do most of us due to price and the fact that the LWB S-Class is the leader of the field, like it or not, in the same way that the 3series is in it's. Established... even if there are other vehicles in those segments that are superior in one area or another. If the SWB S-Class was sold here, the CT6 would most likely be, then, along with the other aforementioned, a competitor to it. THAT'S THAT. 

As to the 122.4 inch wheelbase CT6 versus the 124.6 inch S-class, needing a longer WB is a non-necessity at the moment as they are trying to establish themselves back into a segment that it essentially created, but left after those SOBs Smith and Zarella screwed the brand 25 years ago.

Either way.. whether JDN/GM.. me.. U.. any enthusiast thinks that this car is or isn't gonna be compared to the S-Class is redundant.. it will. I will absolutely love it if pre-conceived notions don't influence those comparos and the CT6 surprises and shuts up all.

 

[smk4565]

Well obviously it isn't an S-class competitor, the other Germans and Lexus are hardly competing with it, the S-class is the king daddy.  And I'd venture to guess very few people are buying the S-class for 0-60 time, even though it is fast, I don't think that is why they get sales.

 

I see Cadillac trying to sell the CT6 to people that would otherwise buy an A7, CLS, Jaguar XJ or Maserati Ghibli, which is to say people that want something sportier and more powerful than a normal A6 or E-class.  Problem is, the CT6 is larger than those cars, doesn't look sporty, and has the same engines basically a CTS has.  So why spend $20k more for a CT6 over a CTS for the same engines, and similar look.  The CLS gets the price premium over the E-class because it has sporty styling and a twin-turbo V8 (although a V6 is available now).  I just don't think the CT6 will sell because they won't be able to carve out a segment of buyers or convey what it is targeting in the advertising.

 

I would have rather seen them make it look radical like the Ciel or something sporty, but instead it is another 4-door sedan, and it isn't what the market wants in a big luxo barge sedan.  Cadillac already has loads of slow selling sedans, they played it safe with this car.  It should have been a V8 to V12 tank like the S-class, or bring back '59 Eldorado fins for all I care, at least it would be radical.

Edited April 7, 2015 by smk4565

[ZL-1]

I doubt the CT6 is going to post sub 4 second 0-60 times with the twin turbo V6.  The CTS-V is in that 3.8 second territory, the CT6 isn't going to run that fast.  And it may weigh 3700 lbs in base trim with a 4 cylinder, but add a TT V6, AWD and you are probably at 4,000, then add power recline rear seats, 30 speakers, etc and I bet it is like 4200 lbs.  I suspect more like 4.5 seconds 0-60 like a CTS V-sport does.

 

What I don't get is what the car is positioned against.  Everyone talks weight and sportiness, but it doesn't look like a sports car.  If it looked like a Maserati Ghibli or A7 or CLS, I could see the point of marking the sporting credentials.  But the CT6 looks like a big CTS, it looks more like an executive luxury sedan, not a sports car.   We heard about how the ATS and CTS were lighter than the 3-series and 5-series, but ATS and CTS sales are in the tank, and BMW keeps surging forward.

I think you're mssing the point GM/Cadillac is making with regard to the CT6 positioning: they're saying it competes with the SWB flagships (remember: you don't get the SWB S-Class in the US but it is sold elsewhere), but it is engineered to be lighter than the competition and therefore offer the driver engagement that flagships usually don't offer (Maserati aside, maybe).

[Cmicasa the Great]

Well obviously it isn't an S-class competitor, the other Germans and Lexus are hardly competing with it, the S-class is the king daddy.  And I'd venture to guess very few people are buying the S-class for 0-60 time, even though it is fast, I don't think that is why they get sales.

 

I see Cadillac trying to sell the CT6 to people that would otherwise buy an A7, CLS, Jaguar XJ or Maserati Ghibli, which is to say people that want something sportier and more powerful than a normal A6 or E-class.  Problem is, the CT6 is larger than those cars, doesn't look sporty, and has the same engines basically a CTS has.  So why spend $20k more for a CT6 over a CTS for the same engines, and similar look.  The CLS gets the price premium over the E-class because it has sporty styling and a twin-turbo V8 (although a V6 is available now).  I just don't think the CT6 will sell because they won't be able to carve out a segment of buyers or convey what it is targeting in the advertising.

 

I would have rather seen them make it look radical like the Ciel or something sporty, but instead it is another 4-door sedan, and it isn't what the market wants in a big luxo barge sedan.  Cadillac already has loads of slow selling sedans, they played it safe with this car.  It should have been a V8 to V12 tank like the S-class, or bring back '59 Eldorado fins for all I care, at least it would be radical.

.

 

Hey. Wouldn't it just be easier if U'd call Dieter up on the phone and ask him to marry U??? I've never seen anyone so on a company's jock    

 

People actually wanted the full-size Cadillac to enter a field of status quo styling with the Elmiraj or Ciel?? Ludicrous. #1 the Elmiraj is a coupe.. and its lines are coup-ish. If anything the CT7 will be that car, and it will be appropriate considering 'radical" design is better accepted in that situation. In this sitiation we essentially got the gorgeous CTS "bolstered".. The CTS, which take already takes a great deal of styling elements from the Ciel. 

 

To my point.. the S-Class isn't exactly exciting to look at.. and neither are the other two Germans. I personally believe when viewed next to any of them, the Cadillac tends to stand out in such a way that any owner should be proud, and will feel absolutely money.

 

As to styling... this is the segment... where the HELL.. would an Elmiraj fit in? 

 

 

the CT6

 

 

7Series

 

 

A8

 

 

the LS460

Edited April 7, 2015 by Cmicasa the Great

[smk4565]

Big luxury sedans usually have sedate styling, but I also imagine the people buying an A8 3.0 or 740i or Equus don't care much about driving engagement or handling. So Cadillac is selling weight savings and handling to a group of buyers that don't care about it.

Look within Cadillac's own brand, the Escalade is their biggest hit and it is obese with a big V8 and flashy styling. That is what Americans want. They built the ATS and CTS lighter than the 3 and 5 series and it made no difference, the 3-series is selling better than ever.

[G. David Felt]

Big luxury sedans usually have sedate styling, but I also imagine the people buying an A8 3.0 or 740i or Equus don't care much about driving engagement or handling. So Cadillac is selling weight savings and handling to a group of buyers that don't care about it.

Look within Cadillac's own brand, the Escalade is their biggest hit and it is obese with a big V8 and flashy styling. That is what Americans want. They built the ATS and CTS lighter than the 3 and 5 series and it made no difference, the 3-series is selling better than ever.

Only selling better in product lines that the ATS and CTS does not compete in yet. Coupes, Convertibles, Hybrids. In the Apple to Apple comparison they compete very strongly. Sales Numbers prove this.

 

But then you will still point to the over all numbers and say the Germans are better.

[smk4565]

The 5-series is sedan only in the USA, unless you want to count the Gran Turismo hatch which they hardly sell any of.  The 6-series holds the coupe and they split the sales numbers out.  5-series sales were up 32% to 5,100 last month, the CTS was down 48% to 1,500.  That would seem to prove BMW outselling the CTS 3 to 1.

 

The 3/4 Series had 14,830 sales last month, even if 4800 were coupes (1/3 take rate), that is still 10,000 sedans to the 2,000 sedans the ATS sold.  So BMW is winning at 5-1 ratio there.

 

I would question Johan though on where are the other body styles, where are the diesels, where are the hybrids?  They just keep making sedans with turbo 4s and V6s.  The CT6 has been in development at least 3 years, they couldn't develop a TT V8, a diesel v6 or plug-in hybrid drivetrain for it during that time?

[balthazar]

In the pics Cmicasa posted, Cripes does the BMW look like a circa 1998 Pontiac! It is beyond dated.

 

MB's unfortunate issue is they have the same exact body on the high-visibility cheap-o CLA as they do on the s-class. I don't get why MB wouldn't give the s-class unique bodywork.

 

Shocker to me; I had no idea toyota was putting the same IS nose on the LS!!! The design is horrifically polarizing, and tho you can make a case for it being 'edgy' on an entry-level IS, it's completely out of place for the sleepy flagship transportation nodule that the LS always has been. That cartoon face has GOT to throw sales into reverse. It's not remotely refined or luxurious-looking.

 

Audi ( and the MB) looks nice, just at the same time: nothing special and largely generic.

 

There's certainly very little to be wow'ed about with current auto design efforts.

[Cmicasa the Great]

Big luxury sedans usually have sedate styling, but I also imagine the people buying an A8 3.0 or 740i or Equus don't care much about driving engagement or handling. So Cadillac is selling weight savings and handling to a group of buyers that don't care about it.

Look within Cadillac's own brand, the Escalade is their biggest hit and it is obese with a big V8 and flashy styling. That is what Americans want. They built the ATS and CTS lighter than the 3 and 5 series and it made no difference, the 3-series is selling better than ever.

 

 

and U are suggesting that they sell an Elmiraj to a group of buyers that prefer sedate styling??? Gotta tell U that I really don't see U as a person who has Cadillac's best interest at heart. The 3series is selling better than the ATS for two main reasons; its the established entry car, and it has variants out the wazzoo. 

[Cmicasa the Great]

In the pics Cmicasa posted, Cripes does the BMW look like a circa 1998 Pontiac! It is beyond dated.

 

MB's unfortunate issue is they have the same exact body on the high-visibility cheap-o CLA as they do on the s-class. I don't get why MB wouldn't give the s-class unique bodywork.

 

Shocker to me; I had no idea toyota was putting the same IS nose on the LS!!! The design is horrifically polarizing, and tho you can make a case for it being 'edgy' on an entry-level IS, it's completely out of place for the sleepy flagship transportation nodule that the LS always has been. That cartoon face has GOT to throw sales into reverse. It's not remotely refined or luxurious-looking.

 

Audi ( and the MB) looks nice, just at the same time: nothing special and largely generic.

 

There's certainly very little to be wow'ed about with current auto design efforts.

 

 

Which is why I am surprised that so many thought that Cadillac would go crazy with the design of a car in this segment. Hell, based on the looks of Rolls and Bentley.. the higher U go up in price the more conservative U go in styling.

[balthazar]

I would disagree RE Rolls; it's not extreme at all but the proportions/blockiness of it look like nothing else IMO. 

Bentleys look cheap IMO; there's no external detailing. Watched a video of a Tesla vs. a Bentley GT3/R (or whatever) and it looked FAR worse than the regular model. Hokey.

 

I agree with your point RE Cadillac expectations, tho.
In a way I don't wonder if a great portion of those 'dissatisfied' with the CT6 really DO harbor Great Internal Hope that Cadillac really does blow their socks off.
It's like they know Cadillac can do it, whereas they have no hope BMW/MB/Audi can, or something along those lines. Just a theory.   

[hyperv6]

Here is the problem. Cadillac has been going along saying the CT6 was the flag ship and then they show several Show cars that were very well done and received yet the CT6 used little of the styling on any of them.

 

People expected a major move by Cadillac and the fact was GM was not fully committed to it during the development of the CT6. Lets face it GM argued with Mark over the cost of the door handles so the old GM was still in play to a point here.

 

Now just having good acceptance of the show cars and the new management coming in to GM telling them that they still have much to fix those at the new GM Finally committed $12 Billion to do it. This has relegated GM to state how the CT6 is going to be a very good car but it is now not our flagship. We can and will do better as we will also over haul the ATS and CTS again. This was stated as their new direction.

 

As for Cadillac they are evolving the A&S at a more rapid pace than Benz or BMW has as they only did refinements over the last 50 years of the same theme. Cadillac will do it in half the time.

 

Each model has it's trademark look. You could remove the emblems and most people could tell you what each is. Some are evolving well and some like Rolls just look like a Checker cab.

 

Audi and Bentley are the new players here as Audi is the youngest and Bentley has had to remove it's self as the Rolls boxy twin.

 

Cadillac has set the look but will evolve the body lines and shape to move forward. The hard lines made a statement but do not age well. They have given the new look a more even flow like on The Elmirage. I expect we will not see anything identical but we will see a move in this direction.

[smk4565]

CT6 is the largest, most expensive Cadillac, so it is their flagship until something else comes along.  Just like the RLX is Acura's flagship car.  Some companies just have a lousy flagship, such as Acura or Volvo.  I think Cadillac thought CT6 would be able to go against the Germans, but the Germans got better, and Cadillac didn't get their DOHC V8 through development in time, so they had to backtrack a little.  When Ed Whiticare was CEO in 2011 or whenever, they talked about the omega platform and a full size Cadillac to go against the S-class.

 

$12 billion buys 6 cars really, Mercedes spends $2 billion on a car sometimes, they spend $1 billion on the mid-cycle refresh of the E-class and it looks like they didn't do much to it, money goes fast.  If Cadillac gets 6 cars that is:

 

ATS, CTS replacements (CT3, CT5 or whatever)

XT5

XT3 small crossover

XT7 large crossover

CT8

 

That is 6 cars and the money is gone, the XTS and ELR aren't getting killed off so that saves money.  And I didn't even factor in a new Escalade, but they won't need one until after 2020, and most of that cost is from the Tahoe anyway.  That still leaves Cadillac with no sports car, just 4 sedans (+ coupe of CT3/CT5) and 4 crossover/SUV.

[G. David Felt]

Going up against a stale product line from MB and BMW. The tweaks show they have not done much on their product line and a C refresh is nice but not revolutionary. Cadillac can and I believe will trounce people like you who only want them to fail to justify your NissaBenzeing of MB to be just another also ran of mass produced auto's.

[Drew Dowdell]

CT6 is the largest, most expensive Cadillac, so it is their flagship until something else comes along.  Just like the RLX is Acura's flagship car.  Some companies just have a lousy flagship, such as Acura or Volvo.  I think Cadillac thought CT6 would be able to go against the Germans, but the Germans got better, and Cadillac didn't get their DOHC V8 through development in time, so they had to backtrack a little.  When Ed Whiticare was CEO in 2011 or whenever, they talked about the omega platform and a full size Cadillac to go against the S-class.

 

$12 billion buys 6 cars really, Mercedes spends $2 billion on a car sometimes, they spend $1 billion on the mid-cycle refresh of the E-class and it looks like they didn't do much to it, money goes fast.  If Cadillac gets 6 cars that is:

 

ATS, CTS replacements (CT3, CT5 or whatever)

XT5

XT3 small crossover

XT7 large crossover

CT8

 

That is 6 cars and the money is gone, the XTS and ELR aren't getting killed off so that saves money.  And I didn't even factor in a new Escalade, but they won't need one until after 2020, and most of that cost is from the Tahoe anyway.  That still leaves Cadillac with no sports car, just 4 sedans (+ coupe of CT3/CT5) and 4 crossover/SUV.

 

You forget that Cadillac can and will share some of the under-parts of these cars with other divisions, so the money will go further at Cadillac than it might at Benz.   Does Cadillac really need its own power window motors, airbag assemblies (I'm not talking the cover here), power seat motors, or disk brake calipers that aren't shared with Chevy, GMC, or Buick?  No, not at all.... and that is just a very short list of possible cost savings that Cadillac has in its pocket that BMW and MB cannot replicate (Audi can through VW).