Kappa II: Making a business case

[Northstar]

This may go to Lutz as well depending on how many people respond, but first I'd just like to see what ideas everyone has for a flexible Kappa II architecture.

I'd like to see:

Pontiac: Solstice, and a vehicle with 2-, 3-, 4-, and 5-door variants. 2.4L Ecotec with the 2.0L DIT optional.

Buick: Possibly a sedan if it has a clear direction different than that of the Pontiac. 2.8L and 3.6L HF V6s

Saturn: Sky, possibly a coupe a la the Curve but with different styling. 2.4L Ecotec and 2.0L DIT on Redline models.

Chevy: Nomad, trucklet coming in under $15k (see Dodge M80). 2.4L and 2.0L DIT on SS.

Cadillac: BLS, BLC (coupe + convert) 2.8L and 3.6L HF V6s with the V-Series getting a ~400 DIT 3.6L

What ideas does everyone else have? I'd like to get the creative juices flowing to give GM a lot of different ideas.

[capriceman]

if by trucklet you mean a SSR variant i would be all for it. make it more reasonalbly priced. LS6 should be able to fit under the hood too. base around 24,000 top end maybe 37K with the LS6 or new LSx

[CaddyXLR-V]

I would like to see: (2.4L, turbo 2.0, and DI 3.6 for all except Cadillac)

Pontiac: Solstice, 2+2 coupe and sedan

Buick: 2+2 convertible

Saturn: Sky, and 2 and 4 door hatches

Chevy: Nomad, styled less ugly

Cadillac: Same as Northstar, without the 2.8L.

[ToniCipriani]

I'm thinking if there is such a platform, keep it more biased to Pontiac. Suits Pontiac's image.

The Aveo should be enough for low end Chevy, maybe a Matiz or Tigra as well.

Buicks should be bigger, no less than Epsilon. Kappa probably won't fit.

Cadillac, well, as I mentioned before, an SLK fighter. Sedans can get Sigma II.

Saturn can get an updated Sky, which will underpin the Opel/Vauxhall GT as well. Oh, and right hand drive models. But that's it. Astra should cover the compact slot well.

As for Pontiac, can't get enough of it. Updated Solstice, and a compact sedan/coupe/hatchback.

Edited May 3, 2006 by ToniCipriani

[z28luvr01]

Pontiac:

Solstice, plus another 2dr, 3dr, 4dr, and 5dr

Chevy:

Nomad, HHR replacement, Camaro, ideally, a lighter, stiffer version could be used for the Corvette as well

Buick:

"Skylark" (a C-class slayer)

Cadillac:

BLS, BLR, BLC, XLR (see Corvette explanation)

Saab:

"Sonnet" roadster, a coupe based off the Aero-X.

Holden:

Torana (2dr, 3dr, 4dr, 5dr, roadster), maybe even a smaller version of the Ute.

Opel

GT, Speedster, Corsa, Tigra

Hummer

Patriot competitor

GMDAT

A replacement for what is now the Chevy Tornado

[Northstar]

This is the M80:

Now, I'm not a huge fan of the styling but I love the idea.

It would not be like the SSR. Similar in concept but it would have a fixed roof and be under $15k if possible. Also it would have I4s rather than a V8 - what better way to get people into a truck in a time of high gas prices than to offer something that could potentially get 20 MPG city and 30 MPG highway?

[Drew Dowdell]

Wait, you guys want to do what?

a nimble 2 seat roadster and a 4 door sedan.... on the same platform?

I can understand wanting the Nomad... it'd be a great Mini competitor.... but lets get real folks, 3 Kappa IIs for Cadillac, one for Buick, 3 for Chevy, 2 for saturn, 1 for Saab and one for Hummer (!?!?!?!)... all on the same platform?

And I thought the old J-body was whored out too much.... sheesh.

OOOh OOOh! I know... the next Avalanche on Kappa II also!

Try to keep it somewhat plausible folks....

[Croc]

Hi, my name is Northstar, and I want to saturate the market!

[4gm]

Hi, my name is Northstar, and I want to saturate the market!

Nothing against Northstar, but that response is hysterical.

Anyway, I'd make Kappa mostly a Pontiac platform. The Solstice, a 4 door, a 2 dr, and maybe a hatback. A 9-1 for Saab would be good too.

[ToniCipriani]

Nothing against Northstar, but that response is hysterical.

Anyway, I'd make Kappa mostly a Pontiac platform.  The Solstice, a 4 door, a 2 dr, and maybe a hatback.  A 9-1 for Saab would be good too.

No RWD for Saab.

[RBB]

Wait, you guys want to do what?

a nimble 2 seat roadster and a 4 door sedan.... on the same platform?

Nissan currently makes the following cars on it's FM platform:

350Z coupe

G35 coupe and sedan

M45 large sedan

FX35 and FX45 SUVs

-RBB

Edited May 3, 2006 by RBB

[ToniCipriani]

Nissan currently makes the following cars on it's FM platform:

350Z coupe

G35 coupe and sedan

M45 large sedan

FX35 and FX45 SUVs

-RBB

But that platform is a midsize, much like Sigma. We're talking a tiny compact chassis, unless it's as flexible as we hope it is. Edited May 3, 2006 by ToniCipriani

[z28luvr01]

Wait, you guys want to do what?

a nimble 2 seat roadster and a 4 door sedan.... on the same platform?

I can understand wanting the Nomad... it'd be a great Mini competitor.... but lets get real folks, 3 Kappa IIs for Cadillac, one for Buick, 3 for Chevy, 2 for saturn, 1 for Saab and one for Hummer (!?!?!?!)... all on the same platform? 

And I thought the old J-body was whored out too much.... sheesh.

OOOh OOOh! I know... the next Avalanche on Kappa II also!

Try to keep it somewhat plausible folks....

If Honda/Toyota/Nissan can build trucks, SUVs, and minivans off of a sedan/coupe platform, then why can't GM take a similar approach. That is probably the ONE thing I'll openly admit that the Japanese have on GM, the ability to use one platform for a variety of purposes. You have to admit that GM's so-called "architectures have so far not been as flexible as they were originally said to be. IIRC, some of you were complaining about GM making Kappa as inflexible as it is, and yet when we try to speculate on what *could* be done with a Kappa successor (in an attempt to make the business case for such a platform even clearer), there isn't agreement but still more scoffing???

[Drew Dowdell]

If Honda/Toyota/Nissan can build trucks, SUVs, and minivans off of a sedan/coupe platform, then why can't GM take a similar approach. That is probably the ONE thing I'll openly admit that the Japanese have on GM, the ability to use one platform for a variety of purposes. You have to admit that GM's so-called "architectures have so far not been as flexible as they were originally said to be. IIRC, some of you were complaining about GM making Kappa as inflexible as it is, and yet when we try to speculate on what *could* be done with a Kappa successor (in an attempt to make the business case for such a platform even clearer), there isn't agreement but still more scoffing???

I'll give you that Honda can do that.... but they don't put the S2000 on that same platform. The closest I can think of to your original proposal is Audi/VW where they have the TT/A4/Beetle/Jetta/Passat/Golf all on the same platform. The problem there is that the TT being on the A4 platform is rarely considered a "plus".

I think the next Kappa should be Nomad/Solstice/Sky/Curve/Baby XLR. Plus what ever foreign brand sales they want to use.

GM has already consolidated their platforms greatly. I don't know how much more contraction they can handle.

[Sixty8panther]

I think this is a great idea. Anyone who's been on C&G for a year or

so will remember my rants to make a Kappa sedan & coupe for

Chevy, Pontiac & even a Skylark for Buick.

As I've said in the past, the time to resurect "micro-sport-sedans" is

now. We need a modern BMW 2002i or if you will, a GM version of a

1970 Datsun 510 sedan & coupe. Perhaps even a wagon? Why not?

Fuel prices are going through the roof, some of us non-retarded folks

might want something other than a FWD Prius, Civic, Cobalt or Mini

in order to save on gas. Why do we get nothing but FWD?

A Kappa sedan would be a paradigm shift just as the first Miata

shocked the world. We (GM) launched the Solstice 17 years later. Not

exactly lightning quick response there on Pontiac & Saturns part. But

now they have a chance to surprise everyone and make a wole lineup

or RWD cars with compact dimensons. The GM that had balls enough

to produce the 63 Split Window, 67 Razorback & 71 Boattail would pull

the triger on this and shock the world while stunning the competition.

Ball's in your court Mr. Lutz!

[CaddyXLR-V]

I'll give you that Honda can do that.... but they don't put the S2000 on that same platform.  The closest I can think of to your original proposal is Audi/VW where they have the TT/A4/Beetle/Jetta/Passat/Golf all on the same platform.  The problem there is that the TT being on the A4 platform is rarely considered a "plus".

I think the next Kappa should be Nomad/Solstice/Sky/Curve/Baby XLR. Plus what ever foreign brand sales they want to use. 

GM has already consolidated their platforms greatly. I don't know how much more contraction they can handle.

Still no small coupes/sedans? That would be a waste.

[Sixty8panther]

GM has already consolidated their platforms greatly. I don't know how much more contraction they can handle.

A small $20,000 RWD, 5/6 speed manual avail. coupe & sedan would

conflict with which other GM rwd platform for that price again?

[Drew Dowdell]

Still no small coupes/sedans? That would be a waste.

Curve is a coupe

Nomad in a 3 and 5 door

[CaddyXLR-V]

Curve is a coupe

Nomad in a 3 and 5 door

Curve is ugly, still no sedans

[tmp]

I think a small RWD coupe and sedan are exactly what GM needs. That is, if they can get what deLorenzo calls the "true believers" to do it and keep the bean-counters locked in a broom closet somewhere.

[Croc]

I think a small RWD coupe and sedan are exactly what GM needs.  That is, if they can get what deLorenzo calls the "true believers" to do it and keep the bean-counters locked in a broom closet somewhere.

Agreed...as long as it improves GM's profitability. There's no point in creating a money-losing vehicle. If GM can get a feasible vehicle on Kappa, then great...but if engineering costs make it too expensive then wait until the next RWD platform comes around since I'd rather have GM make cars for a long time than to put out a couple low-volume awesome models and promptly go Ch. 11 on us.

[91z4me]

Agreed...as long as it improves GM's profitability.  There's no point in creating a money-losing vehicle.  If GM can get a feasible vehicle on Kappa, then great...but if engineering costs make it too expensive then wait until the next RWD platform comes around since I'd rather have GM make cars for a long time than to put out a couple low-volume awesome models and promptly go Ch. 11 on us.

+1