GM Ford loses market share to Honda and Toyota

[andy82471]

http://www.marketwatch.com/News/Story/Stor...hoo&siteid=yhoo

Well it is deja vu all over again. The domestics losing ground to Asian imports. At least the GMT 900s are doing good. But GM really needs to pay attention to its car side. They can't depend on truck sales to carry them through forever.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Looks like the "media slurping" of the Ridgeline is working... Maybe THAT is why they were shoving an ill conceived disaster of a truck down our throats, because they knew about the gas spike and knew they had an opportunity to win Honda some share. Of course, the fact that it COINCIDES with Honda's big new ad push (something fishey there) doesn't hurt either.

As for Toyota and Nissan trucks.... CAN WE SAY "BIG INCENTIVE SPENDING"?!?!?!?

And before ANYONE (You all know who you are) jumps to their defense. Just check the recent articles posted for proof.

***Detroit won't stop losing share anytime soon... The media has SUCCEEDED at slamming the door shut on their opportunites for at least 5-10 years, that is, if they even survive.

They're even starting to "POSITION" Hyundai and Subaru as a better alternative.

Like Delorenzo said; the media has cannonized everything import (In the mind of the consumer) as automatically better. MOST of them provbably don't even consider domestics as a possible purchase anymore... I guess Detroit got too competitive and we had to stack the deck even MORE blatant.

[enzl]

Looks like the "media slurping" of the Ridgeline is working... Maybe THAT is why they were shoving an ill conceived disaster of a truck down our throats, because they knew about the gas spike and knew they had an opportunity to win Honda some share. Of course, the fact that it COINCIDES with Honda's big new ad push (something fishey there) doesn't hurt either.

As for Toyota and Nissan trucks.... CAN WE SAY "BIG INCENTIVE SPENDING"?!?!?!?

And before ANYONE (You all know who you are) jumps to their defense. Just check the recent articles posted for proof.

***Detroit won't stop losing share anytime soon... The media has SUCCEEDED at slamming the door shut on their opportunites for at least 5-10 years, that is, if they even survive.

They're even starting to "POSITION" Hyundai and Subaru as a better alternative.

Like Delorenzo said; the media has cannonized everything import (In the mind of the consumer) as automatically better. MOST of them provbably don't even consider domestics as a possible purchase anymore... I guess Detroit got too competitive and we had to stack the deck even MORE blatant.

FOG-Not once have you ever articulated WHY the media is out to get Detroit...

Again, isn't it more likely the product isn't quite there yet??? Killing 2.5 HUGE advertisers makes no sense at all...nor does outting millions of readers, TV watchers or internet surfers when they lose their jobs as a result of the destruction of their employers....Americans still spend more per capita on entertainment than almost any other culture on the planet...Why on earth would the media conglomerates want to put them out in the street?

I'll repeat for your benefit. Ackham's (Occum's) Razor is a theory that states that, absent a clear indicator, the simplest explanation is generally the right one....

Now, do all of the above entities really benefit from bashing the big 2.5 in a giant show of uniformity, solidarity and agreement in perpetuating what you say are lies or, do the big 2.5, generally speaking, put out product that is, generally, inferior?

Do you actually look at all of the product out there? Or do you share the bomb shelter with GM and Ford product planners, hoping that the war outside is a shared nightmare that will go away if you squeeze your eyes shut real tight?

Edited May 2, 2006 by enzl

[Mr.Krinkle]

theres a lot of info here and some of it is mixed up.

they say fuel efficiency is at the fore yet there were huge gains for the new 900 suvs so maybe then its just that new product is what is selling.

i think it odd that these blanket statements and predictions are used then someone bucks the trend, seemingly negates it--yet maintains their position.

of course no one is gonna sink money into a true gas hog but i think most people are basically content with mpg 18 city and up. at least.

overall it wasnt really a good month for anyone, except honda whove been creeping up very steadily for a while now...civics the little trucks...again newer.

and it shows.

theres always a higher demand for new product regardless, and that is always what will sell the best, and probably always will. who wants to trade up for the same model or lower. not too many.

ford trucks took a beating but the cars are showing good signs, again new so...

i definately think the 9% drop off in f150's are hold outs for the upcoming silverados...well see about that one i guess.

the new rav 4 up...camry slightly, but its very early to infer anything about that...

my guess is once gm finally gets some newer or refreshed models out there numbers will again begin to change. shocking huh? maybe if its an off cycle there will be huge gains, but thats (very) optimistic.

i honestly think people are slowly becoming less afrraid to give a chevy a chance again...or a pontiac, buick, saturn etc....

caddys took a dive, but theyrre old...and people want new.

its a sort of holding pattern right now. they predicted flat and thats basically wha this is. flat. nothing to worry about...yet.

[CARBIZ]

Put simply, perhaps it is because GM and Ford don't build enough cars that the so-called car critics want to own.

95% of the car buying public doesn't give a damn about G-forces, skid pads, 0-60 times, etc., yet that is all might meter to the media.

Oh, that and the gloss of the chrome or the spongy feel of the dashboard pad.

AND GOD FORBID IF YOU CAN'T GET A MANUAL TRANSMISSION IN A MALIBU!!!! Makes the rest of the car crap by default, doesn't it?

I used to be in the video business and it was the same with the critics. I remember when the New York critics voted Citizen Kane as the best American movie ever made. Are they kidding? I've tried twice to sit through it, but that is what THE MEDIA considers the best American movie ever made.

YIKES.

[Mr.Krinkle]

--ya know whats funny though, is that if you tell someone something is good, they will find reasons to see why it is good.

some people really just need to be told what to buy what to like.

it works the other way too.

[capriceman]

FOG-Not once have you ever articulated WHY the media is out to get Detroit...

A) Detroit media will never forgive the union strikes.

B) They blame Detroit for what happend in the 70's

C) as quote from Car and Driver in a camparo with a H3 and FJ "Hey it's a Toyota" as a highlight reason.

D) some where in history one particular state on the west coast started hating anything american and some how it spread.

E) ^ Also they started "imports are better than domestic" thing

F)NAFTA was formed and it cuases imports to be cheaper causeing media to say domestic is a rip off

G) Media no longer belives that a company owes its employees healthcare and pentions and should say screw them find your own healthcare a retirement plan.....

Just a few that are true

I particaly anwseredr for him. If you dont mind FOG.

my opinion is the same as him and i look at other products all the time. and nothing really compares as to quality performance reliebity and VALUE. than a domestic. for imports out of those you can only pick 2 not all 4.

Edited May 3, 2006 by capriceman

[balthazar]

<<"...WHY the media is out to get Detroit..."<<

Ever watch parents at a big picnic: talking nicely to other's kids while being short & harsh with their own? No doubt there's a phsycological term for the practice- I haven't looked into it in depth but it's very real.

I've relayed this story before; my 'eye-opening': front page, headline story, 'GM recalls 375K' for relatively minor item. Same paper, same day, page 8 sidebar, 'VW recalls 1.2M' for defect possibly leading to vehicle fires.

Wish I could remember the specifics, but this was 20 years ago.

You tell us, enzl; WHY? GM 'deserved / earned' greater attention & emphasis on a less-dangerous recall because their cars were "inferior" to VWs?? How's that fit into the logic template?

Advertising (not just automobiles) has trumpeted the 'virtues' of imported good for over 100 years. Sometimes the claims are warranted. No one can legitimately deny that sometimes they aren't.

Well, some can.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

I think some share could be regained if Detroit started making vehicles like they once did (modern, of course). I can't remember who said it on this site, but, when Detroit goes against Japan in terms of mainstream cars, they lose. When they build cars their way, as in the 300C, they win on their own turf in sort of a sub-segment that belongs only to themselves and the product still somehow manages to go up against mainstream Japan.

[Intrepidation]

I think some share could be regained if Detroit started making vehicles like they once did (modern, of course). I can't remember who said it on this site, but, when Detroit goes against Japan in terms of mainstream cars, they lose. When they build cars their way, as in the 300C, they win on their own turf in sort of a sub-segment that belongs only to themselves and the product still somehow manages to go up against mainstream Japan.

Yeah, the 300 and the Mustang are prime examples of what happens when Detroit builds cars there way. They sell like crazy. When they try to build a better Camry, they fail. Leave the weird looking cars to the Japaese and Koreans.

[Mr.Krinkle]

well, that pretty much settles that.

so whos gonna change their minds first? people or the magazines and papers?

[Guest buickman]

Simple solution, remove Wagoner and implement Return to Greatness and market share is back at 30 by year end.

Buickman

[enzl]

A) Detroit media will never forgive the union strikes.

B) They blame Detroit for what happend in the 70's

C) as quote from Car and Driver in a camparo with a H3 and FJ "Hey it's a Toyota" as a highlight reason.

D) some where in history one particular state on the west coast started hating anything american and some how it spread.

E) ^ Also they started "imports are better than domestic" thing

F)NAFTA was formed and it cuases imports to be cheaper causeing media to say domestic is a rip off

G) Media no longer belives that a company owes its employees healthcare and pentions and should say screw them find your own healthcare a retirement plan.....

None of these responses explains a nationwide (worldwide) epidemic of bad press (which, BTW, is punctuated by GOOD reviews when the product is...tah-dah...GOOD- See GMT900's, Corvette, Kappas, Fusion, F150, etc... for examples which do not support any of the above points.)

I'm not sure that you guys 'get' it. Drive a few of the top rated products in any category...then step into a comparable GM product...GM's just not there yet with its portfolio. Doesn't mean they can't or won't, but they're not.

Does GM get bashed? They sure do. Do they deserve most of it? Yes they do...they've squandered the equivalent of a 10 run lead going into the 9th inning. Their serial incompetence with product and utter disdain for the consumer reached epic proportions...and, by the time they realized that things had to change, it was too late. Can't turn the Titanic around on a dime...can't do it with GM either...

Does that mean they're doomed or that their current product isn't better? NO. But they've created the very monster that is eating them alive. There are patriotic Americans who won't walk into a Big 2.5 store...not even considering their product...they personally feel let down by these companies and the opportunity to ask these people to 'take a chance' on a $20K+ product that their family is using and their non-discretionary income is paying for is ludicrous.

Again, someone articulate the rationale behind biting the hand that feeds the Media-Industrial Complex here in the US? And don't gimme scolding your children or some other psychobabble...They run businesses, they don't care who pays the frieght for ads and magazines and tV, they just don't...

Edited May 3, 2006 by enzl

[evok]

Simple solution, remove Wagoner and implement Return to Greatness and market share is back at 30 by year end.

Buickman

Wow, the dillusions of self importance are getting greater. Now your plan will increase market share by a full 6 percentage points.

Lucy In the Sky ... with Diamonds!

[Mr.Krinkle]

thats funny but its product! product! product!

the first and most important part. maybe even the only part.

plain and simple. no hocus pocus.

[evok]

A) Detroit media will never forgive the union strikes.

B) They blame Detroit for what happend in the 70's

C) as quote from Car and Driver in a camparo with a H3 and FJ "Hey it's a Toyota" as a highlight reason.

D) some where in history one particular state on the west coast started hating anything american and some how it spread.

E) ^ Also they started "imports are better than domestic" thing

F)NAFTA was formed and it cuases imports to be cheaper causeing media to say domestic is a rip off

G) Media no longer belives that a company owes its employees healthcare and pentions and should say screw them find your own healthcare a retirement plan.....

None of these responses explains a nationwide (worldwide) epidemic of bad press (which, BTW, is punctuated by GOOD reviews when the product is...tah-dah...GOOD- See GMT900's, Corvette, Kappas, Fusion, F150, etc... for examples which do not support any of the above points.)

I'm not sure that you guys 'get' it. Drive a few of the top rated products in any category...then step into a comparable GM product...GM's just not there yet with its portfolio. Doesn't mean they can't or won't, but they're not.

Does GM get bashed? They sure do. Do they deserve most of it? Yes they do...they've squandered the equivalent of a 10 run lead going into the 9th inning. Their serial incompetence with product and utter disdain for the consumer reached epic proportions...and, by the time they realized that things had to change, it was too late. Can't turn the Titanic around on a dime...can't do it with GM either...

Does that mean they're doomed or that their current product isn't better? NO. But they've created the very monster that is eating them alive. There are patriotic Americans who won't walk into a Big 2.5 store...not even considering their product...they personally feel let down by these companies and the opportunity to ask these people to 'take a chance' on a $20K+ product that their family is using and their non-discretionary income is paying for is ludicrous.

Again, someone articulate the rationale behind biting the hand that feeds the Media-Industrial Complex here in the US? And don't gimme scolding your children or some other psychobabble...They run businesses, they don't care who pays the frieght for ads and magazines and tV, they just don't...

But the BM will solve all that is wrong with GM that you just pointed out by making sure GM Emplyees turn their company cars in with low milage, give GM employees GM Card points on top of GMS and bring the dealers into Detroit City for an all expense paid weekend of booze, gals and product previews.

Edited May 3, 2006 by evok

[Satty]

I'm sure that if GM cut all of their sticker prices in half, they could get 50% market share. Doesn't mean its a good idea.

[Intrepidation]

Simple solution, remove Wagoner and implement Return to Greatness and market share is back at 30 by year end.

Buickman

My what an enchanted world you live in.

The solution is obvious but far from simple. Create products that people will lust after, that are so good people are willing to forgive GM and Ford for their past errors and arrogance. Chrysler can do it, so can they.

Edited May 3, 2006 by Dodgefan

[CaddyXLR-V]

Wow, the dillusions of self importance are getting greater.  Now your plan will increase market share by a full 6 percentage points. 

Lucy In the Sky ... with Diamonds!

All in 7 months. Maybe he meant 30% of the fleet market, who knows.

[Mr.Krinkle]

conspiracy theory and psychabble aside--if you want to call it that-- i do feel that a stronger hand is used when treating domestic cars. it may only seem like that and im sure i could back it up if i took the time, but as far as gut instincts go there is definately a more discriminating take on product that comes from home, here in the USA.

the exact reasons--well who cares. mags like cr are certainly playing with a stacked deck, but most people acknowledge this already...thats easily explainable as ive noted inconsistecies in their writing....most recent with toyota cutting their teeth bs response...that easygoing attituted wouldnt apply to anything else domestic.

i just dont think it stops there. the bottom line is though no one is forced to listen to this crap.

it would be interesting though to see what happens first. the new cars when they finally get here are going to make the current camry look like they did in 1989 and the chrysler 300 will look like it has some new friends.

the approach to beating japanese imports by creating lookalikes never took off.

so how do you change that? you make them irrelevant.

thats when realistic market share will increase again.

[Intrepidation]

conspiracy theory and psychabble aside--if you want to call it that-- i do feel that a stronger hand is used when  treating domestic cars.  it may only seem like that and im sure i could back it up if i took the time, but as far as gut instincts go there is definately a more discriminating take on product that comes from home, here in the USA.

the exact reasons--well who cares.  mags like cr are certainly playing with a stacked deck, but most people acknowledge this already...thats easily explainable as ive noted inconsistecies in their writing....most recent with toyota cutting their teeth bs response...that easygoing attituted wouldnt apply to anything else domestic.

i just dont think it stops there.  the bottom line is though no one is forced to listen to this crap. 

it would be interesting though to see what happens first.  the new cars when they finally get here are going to make the current camry look like they did in 1989 and the chrysler 300 will look like it has some new friends.

the approach to beating japanese imports by creating lookalikes never took off. 

so how do you change that?  you make them irrelevant.

thats when realistic market share will increase again.

Sounds about right. Chrysler was the first to realize that tryng to build a better Camry worked as well as a 10 year old Hyundai Excel. Build cars that are distinctly American in style, are modern, perform good, and people will come.

Edited May 3, 2006 by Dodgefan

[enzl]

Sounds about right. Chrysler was the first to realize that tryng to build a better Camry worked as well as a 10 year old Hyundai Excel. Build cars that are distinctly American in style, are modern, perform good, and people will come.

Couldn't agree with the last two posts more...

...it can happen. Arguing about the merits of the quality of plastic in the new Impala and how it stacks up against the Camry is an argument we shouldn't be having on this site...The fact that the Impala nameplate is attached to such a pedestrian product has played into the Japanese nameplates' hands by taking the 'Americaness' out of the product...

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

FOG-Not once have you ever articulated WHY the media is out to get Detroit...

1) Yes I have, on the old board I did a DETAILED piece on why I thought the media was anti-Detroit.... And guess what! It WASN'T because of some HUGE conspiracy.

Again, isn't it more likely the product isn't quite there yet???

No it is not.... The product is there, it's the IMAGE that suffers. And WE ALL KNOW who/what controls image in this country.

Killing 2.5 HUGE advertisers makes no sense at all...nor does outting millions of readers, TV watchers or internet surfers when they lose their jobs as a result of the destruction of their employers....

I know, which is why I'm here.

I'll repeat for your benefit. Ackham's (Occum's) Razor is a theory that states that, absent a clear indicator, the simplest explanation is generally the right one....

Theory?

Now, do all of the above entities really benefit from bashing the big 2.5 in a giant show of uniformity, solidarity and agreement in perpetuating what you say are lies or, do the big 2.5, generally speaking, put out product that is, generally, inferior?

The earlier post on the old board suggested that the "bashing" was almost subconcious and not always intentional, almost like prejudice.

Do you actually look at all of the product out there? Or do you share the bomb shelter with GM and Ford product planners, hoping that the war outside is a shared nightmare that will go away if you squeeze your eyes shut real tight?

A nightmare that goes away?!?!?! WE ARE LIVING the nightmare as we are witnessing the changing of the guards....

Never once have I asserted that GM and Ford by in large had VASTLY superior product. In fact, in the C&D Impala thread I agreed with you that the Impala was NOT what it needed to be. And, I'll even go this far... Given I were in the market for a car, MY OWN PERSONAL decisions would NOT go to GM right now in 2 of the biggest segments (Impala sized segment would see me buying a CHARGER and the Malibu sized segment would see me opting for a Fusion)

BUT, that said, GM DOES deserve FAIR treatment because their products ARE competitive AND competent. Some criticizm is warranted, but the amount of criticizm that GM has seen over the past 1-2 years HAS NOT BEEN and NEVER WILL BE warranted. People making statements like; GM has been bribing people to buy their cars. -or- statements like GM is not essential to this economy, are just contributing to the mounting propaganda and should not be tolerated.

Make no mistake, I'm not stupid; just passionate.

[Guest flowmotion]

Sounds about right. Chrysler was the first to realize that tryng to build a better Camry worked as well as a 10 year old Hyundai Excel. Build cars that are distinctly American in style, are modern, perform good, and people will come.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This sort of "surrender" sentiment is a cop-out. Camry and Accord dominate the mainstream auto market place, and if you can't go toe-to-toe with them, you're headed towards irrelevancy.

Look at the Ford Fusion -- it's a competitive American car that ain't leaning on old-age styling motifs. How can Ford build a car like the Fusion while GM dishes out 3rd rate crap like the Malibu and G6? Easy answer. Because GM isn't trying to "build a better Camry". They concentrate on fleet sales and pulling in the walmart customer with their cheap credit. They don't try and their P/L shows it.

Let me explain why this won't work. Heritage Styling will only take you so far -- once the novelty has worn off, consumers aren't going to overlook the crappy dashboards and old-fashioned engines and transmissions.

I have a lot of respect for Chrysler, they went from nuthin' to something in the large car market. But wait until their new midsizers come out -- you're going to get a mini-300C and a mini-Charger, complete with typical Chrysler-cheap interiors. And people are going to look at them and say, "You know, I'd rather have a well-designed Accord" and they won't make a dent in the Japanese dominance of this class.

I'm all for retro/heritage for certian niche cars -- Mustang, Camaro, 300C. GM could even pull off a nice retro Impala. But bottom-line is the Camry/Accord is the bread-n-butter of the car market, and GM's got to get competitive there if they want to survive. Let's hope they're serious about it with Aura.

Edited May 7, 2006 by flowmotion

[balthazar]

One has to read deeply and analytically into publications to learn just how ingrained & pervasive the bias runs.

This is one, minor example, and I've seen it countless times.

>>"...BMW's E85 Series..."<<

>>"...Chevy's so-called GMT800..."<<

There is no legitimate reason to use the phrase "so-called". Both manufacturers supply their respective technical data and product sheets. All a 'writer' has to do is read it and reguritate it for the article. To read 'GMT800' and then write "so-called" implies -at the very least- doubt on some level. Yet I have never EVER read this sort of wording in a BMW (random import make) article.

It's as if the 'writers' are ravenously into the BMW and eagerly accept anything & everything presented with the test car as Complete and Utter Truth (or maybe it's just that all-expenses-paid junket to the wine-soaked Bavarian countryside)....

while over in Detroit it's 'probable' the Chevy/GM suits have no idea what the platform/generation is actually coded as.

Either way, PRODUCT has absolutely no bearing on the choice of wording. Yet there it is, and it's only one of the most minor of journalistic transgressions.

[balthazar]

Camry and Accord dominate the mainstream auto market place, and if you can't go toe-to-toe with them, you're headed towards irrelevancy.

The camry outsells the accord (with a LOT of fleet sales); does the accord go "toe-to-toe" with the camry?

The accord outsells the Impala, does the Impala go "toe-to-toe" with the accord?

Where is the line drawn and how is that distance measured?

Let me explain why this won't work. Heritage Styling will only take you so far -- once the novelty has worn off, consumers aren't going to overlook the crappy dashboards and old-fashioned engines and transmissions.

Are you saying that just because a vehicle has 'heritage' styling that it's interior is automatically "crappy"? Lots of modern vehicles have 'modern' styling and still have crappy interiors. I don't see any connection.

I have a lot of respect for Chrysler, they went from nuthin' to something in the large car market. But wait until their new midsizers come out -- you're going to get a mini-300C and a mini-Charger, complete with typical Chrysler-cheap interiors. And people are going to look at them and say, "You know, I'd rather have a well-designed Accord" and they won't make a dent in the Japanese dominance of this class.

Again I ask- at what sales level does a vehicle within class become 'competitive'? And how could the ravenous demand & near-record volume of the Charger/Magnum/300 be explained in light of the "well-designed" accord? Why would anyone be (snapping them up) at all if they are so awful cheap?

[Guest flowmotion]

The camry outsells the accord (with a LOT of fleet sales); does the accord go "toe-to-toe" with the camry? The accord outsells the Impala, does the Impala go "toe-to-toe" with the accord? Where is the line drawn and how is that distance measured?

What are Toyota's profits in the midsize segment? What are Honda's? What are GM's? Wasn't it reported that GM was selling Impalas for a loss just to keep the factories going? How much of that $10B loss is directly attributable to not having a competitive midsized car? Who cares abourt sales figures when you are going broke? There's the line.

Are you saying that just because a vehicle has 'heritage' styling that it's interior is automatically "crappy"?

No, I'm saying that American cars in this segment traditionally have had the fundemental problem of being cheap. Unless they fix these problems, they're not going to be competitive no matter what styling they have. In fact "heritage" will probably make things worse because the beancounters will put more money into stamping tailfins and less money into interiors and features.

If Chevy is making rental-mobiles now on their fully-paid-off W platform, why should anyone expect a competitive interior on a new more-expensive, retro-style RWD platform?

And how could the ravenous demand & near-record volume of the Charger/Magnum/300 be explained in light of the "well-designed" accord?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The full-size traditional "American Car" segment was totally mortibund until the 300C/Charger showed up. They're competing against GM FWD Rehash #12, the ancient Ford CV and the boring 500. These are great cars, but much of their success can be explained by the lack of competition.

Let's see if Chrysler can repeat their success in the midsized segement. I'm not holding any hope up for a "Camry Killer" (sales-, profit-, or other-wise).

Edited May 8, 2006 by flowmotion