Rumorpile: Cadillac LTS To Debut At New York: Comments

[G. David Felt]

Guess now that there is nothing really critical that clearly sets ATS and BMW 3 series apart they have to nit pick and the only thing they could find was back seat because all the 3 series lovers are now fat married and wish they had more room.

 

Time to go to the CTS but then these folks probably cannot really afford a 5 series and they will still complain due to how much better the CTS is over the 5 series.

[Robert Hall]

Cadillac, along with Acura and later Lincoln went to these 3 letter names to copy the Germans I suppose, but none of the Germans use 3 letters in their names.  

???  These are 3 letter names--CLA, CLS, SLS, SLR...pay attention.

[smk4565]

The 3-series may have drifted from the core values, and it does seem a bit big and fat now (as do all BMWs), but the 3-series still has enough of the BMW traits to keep people buying.  Steering isn't as good, but they still have BMW suspension and BMW brakes, it is bigger, but they give you more interior room, it is heavier than it was 10 years ago, but they have an 8-speed and turbo inline 6 that is super smooth with great low end torque.   BMW still does enough and the 3-series is sort of evolving or aging with its customer base.   The ATS can't match the 3-series acceleration, and the ATS can't match the NVH.  And the 3-series has a diesel that gets 45 mpg.

 

The C-class is going to put the "luxury" back into luxury sports sedans, they aren't going to copy BMW like Cadillac and Lexus have done, Mercedes is doing what Mercedes does best and I think they are about to stick it to BMW.  Cadillac needs to do what Cadillac does best, and not just try to copy the E90 3-series, because people aren't going to buy the copy.

[smk4565]

 

Cadillac, along with Acura and later Lincoln went to these 3 letter names to copy the Germans I suppose, but none of the Germans use 3 letters in their names.  

???  These are 3 letter names--CLA, CLS, SLS, SLR...pay attention.

 

Yes Mercedes is doing a lot more 3 letter names now I guess I didn't realize how many, now that I think of GLK, GLA, CLA.   But they pretty much only had C, E, S classes and ML, SL back when the other guys went to alphabet soup names.  Lexus clearly has tried to copy Mercedes since the very beginning, but I still think Cadillac, Lincoln and Acura would have been better off sticking with word names rather than going to alphanumeric, I think they lost some of their identities when they did that.

[Drew Dowdell]

Most of the 3ers sold are 328s which get to 60 in the same 5.7 seconds it takes the ATS 2.0t.

Clearly acceleration isn't the main sticking point and you're just trying to move the goal posts again.

[Drew Dowdell]

Smk is right about one thing. The entire industry needs to watch the new C-Class. For similar money, I would buy the C-Class over the ATS even though I like the ATS. However, I'm expecting a decent price premium on the C-Class to push it up away from the CLA.

[Robert Hall]

 .  Lexus clearly has tried to copy Mercedes since the very beginning, but I still think Cadillac, Lincoln and Acura would have been better off sticking with word names rather than going to alphanumeric, I think they lost some of their identities when they did that.

 

Totally agree...

Edited August 15, 2014 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[Z-06]

The 3-series may have drifted from the core values, and it does seem a bit big and fat now (as do all BMWs), but the 3-series still has enough of the BMW traits to keep people buying.  Steering isn't as good, but they still have BMW suspension and BMW brakes, it is bigger, but they give you more interior room, it is heavier than it was 10 years ago, but they have an 8-speed and turbo inline 6 that is super smooth with great low end torque.   BMW still does enough and the 3-series is sort of evolving or aging with its customer base.   The ATS can't match the 3-series acceleration, and the ATS can't match the NVH.  And the 3-series has a diesel that gets 45 mpg.

 

The C-class is going to put the "luxury" back into luxury sports sedans, they aren't going to copy BMW like Cadillac and Lexus have done, Mercedes is doing what Mercedes does best and I think they are about to stick it to BMW.  Cadillac needs to do what Cadillac does best, and not just try to copy the E90 3-series, because people aren't going to buy the copy.

 

But according to you enough is not enough, you have to be the bestest and mostest when you put the goal post for Cadillac.

[Cmicasa the Great]

For the last few years the complaint about the 3 series is how it got too big, too heavy, and lost it's soul. Along comes a Cadillac in more compact dimensions, lightest in its class, and with all the moves and more that the old lamented 3er had and suddenly the priority is back seat room?!?

 

 

 

Exactly what I've been saying. Before the ATS came along, I not once saw a review get into how important backseat room was. The ATS scored high in those reviews.. and then loss because of a dynamic that was always a non-issue. Not once do I remember the E90s being held up high because of their backseat room.. or penalized when compared to the, at the time, out of place oversized competitor CTS, which certainly had a larger back-seat. When it comes to the 3series, C&D, MT etc will go outta their way to make it #1

[smk4565]

The ELR can't be compared to an R8 or SLS AMG (which is getting replaced next year), because those are high end sports cars, they aren't going to sell they are more there for marketing purpose and engineer exercises.  The ELR is a Volt coupe, the engineering was already there and it isn't creating some sports car halo effect that makes Cadillac a cool brand.

 

As far as moving goal posts go, yes they do move and it is BMW and Mercedes who move them.  Going back to 1990 when Lexus came out they copied Mercedes, but then Mercedes came out with soft closing doors, double glazed glass, power folding rear headrests, a V12 engine, etc.  Then the target moved.  Lexus tried to copy the 3-series with the first IS300, but what they really had was a dressed up Toyota Altezza, and when BMW put the twin turbo I-6 in the 3-series the rest of the segment was like 50 hp behind, so the goal post became 300 hp in 2007.  The 3-series was so dominant in that class, that even though the 2014 model might not be as good as a 2010 3-series, what BMW builds is still better than what the copy cats have.  Mercedes is about to attack the segment from a different angle, but by doing what their core traits are, luxury, engineering, ride quality, etc.

 

The leaders set the goal post, the copy cat brands try to get there, only to find the leader moved it again.  Cadillac benchmarked the 3-series for the ATS and bought 3-series and took them apart and tried to build a better mousetrap so to speak, but then you are also benchmarking a BMW of a couple years ago since it takes a few years to develop a car.  When Mercedes designs a new S-class, they don't go out and benchmark and A8 or 7-series, the set out to build the best car in the world, they create their own benchmark and set what the new standard will be. 

[Cmicasa the Great]

The ELR can't be compared to an R8 or SLS AMG (which is getting replaced next year), because those are high end sports cars, they aren't going to sell they are more there for marketing purpose and engineer exercises.  The ELR is a Volt coupe, the engineering was already there and it isn't creating some sports car halo effect that makes Cadillac a cool brand.

 

As far as moving goal posts go, yes they do move and it is BMW and Mercedes who move them.  Going back to 1990 when Lexus came out they copied Mercedes, but then Mercedes came out with soft closing doors, double glazed glass, power folding rear headrests, a V12 engine, etc.  Then the target moved.  Lexus tried to copy the 3-series with the first IS300, but what they really had was a dressed up Toyota Altezza, and when BMW put the twin turbo I-6 in the 3-series the rest of the segment was like 50 hp behind, so the goal post became 300 hp in 2007.  The 3-series was so dominant in that class, that even though the 2014 model might not be as good as a 2010 3-series, what BMW builds is still better than what the copy cats have.  Mercedes is about to attack the segment from a different angle, but by doing what their core traits are, luxury, engineering, ride quality, etc.

 

The leaders set the goal post, the copy cat brands try to get there, only to find the leader moved it again.  Cadillac benchmarked the 3-series for the ATS and bought 3-series and took them apart and tried to build a better mousetrap so to speak, but then you are also benchmarking a BMW of a couple years ago since it takes a few years to develop a car.  When Mercedes designs a new S-class, they don't go out and benchmark and A8 or 7-series, the set out to build the best car in the world, they create their own benchmark and set what the new standard will be. 

 

 

 

I agree with a great deal of what U said. The problem with the ELR though is that for some reason they, or the press tried to label it as a Halo car. It is not. The still running CTS-V Coupe is more so. After that the press constantly compared it to the Tesla S because of the EV portion of the Voltec inside it.. it was not and is not, no more than a Volt should be directly compared to a Leaf, when a Spark EV is more so the competitor. 

 

As for the benchmarking. The ATS not only benchemarked the 3series, but exceeded it in all metrics except.. well.. the back-seat room. For a DRIVER'S CAR.. read DRIVER.. should be a moot point. 

[Drew Dowdell]

The ELR can't be compared to an R8 or SLS AMG (which is getting replaced next year), because those are high end sports cars, they aren't going to sell they are more there for marketing purpose and engineer exercises.  The ELR is a Volt coupe, the engineering was already there and it isn't creating some sports car halo effect that makes Cadillac a cool brand.

 

As far as moving goal posts go, yes they do move and it is BMW and Mercedes who move them.  Going back to 1990 when Lexus came out they copied Mercedes, but then Mercedes came out with soft closing doors, double glazed glass, power folding rear headrests, a V12 engine, etc.  Then the target moved.  Lexus tried to copy the 3-series with the first IS300, but what they really had was a dressed up Toyota Altezza, and when BMW put the twin turbo I-6 in the 3-series the rest of the segment was like 50 hp behind, so the goal post became 300 hp in 2007.  The 3-series was so dominant in that class, that even though the 2014 model might not be as good as a 2010 3-series, what BMW builds is still better than what the copy cats have.  Mercedes is about to attack the segment from a different angle, but by doing what their core traits are, luxury, engineering, ride quality, etc.

 

The leaders set the goal post, the copy cat brands try to get there, only to find the leader moved it again.  Cadillac benchmarked the 3-series for the ATS and bought 3-series and took them apart and tried to build a better mousetrap so to speak, but then you are also benchmarking a BMW of a couple years ago since it takes a few years to develop a car.  When Mercedes designs a new S-class, they don't go out and benchmark and A8 or 7-series, the set out to build the best car in the world, they create their own benchmark and set what the new standard will be. 

 

 

No no... you and the media move the goal posts. Cadillac meets the supposed gold standard on handling and suddenly handling doesn't matter anymore, back seat room does. BMW of today doesn't even handle like the old 3er... so BMW actually retreated from the goal posts.....

 

unless, and I suspect this is really the issue here... the goal post is just the badge and any old crummy car with the BMW badge on it is automatically better than a Cadillac to you. Thus, even if GM simply rebadged a 3-series with a crest, it still wouldn't be good enough for you because you're so American loathing.

[Z-06]

The ELR can't be compared to an R8 or SLS AMG (which is getting replaced next year), because those are high end sports cars, they aren't going to sell they are more there for marketing purpose and engineer exercises.  The ELR is a Volt coupe, the engineering was already there and it isn't creating some sports car halo effect that makes Cadillac a cool brand.

 

Giving you the benefit of doubt, that is why I specifically asked you what was your qualification for calling ELR a flop and you mentioned sales. Well if sales is the only indicator then those cars are flop, forget the qualifiers you are now adding to dance around your moving goal posts.

 

Per your indicator it does not matter if it was FWD or Halo or engineering marvel, since it did not meet your sales expectation, it is a flop, then so are SLS and R8. I am just following your flawless logic.

[smk4565]

I am not a BMW fan, but the 3-series outsells the ATS like 5 to 1 and ATS sales are down 20% this year. So Cadillac must have missed the mark on something. I don't think Cadillac really understands the luxury market. They copy the 3-series and the Lexus RX, they threw the ELR against the wall to see if it would stick, they figured there are a lot of "traditional" Cadillac buyers so we need an XTS for them, and they got some hits and misses. But overall they don't have a really good plan of attack. Not enough body style and engine choices, not enough focus on brand image, no core value to cling to. The ATS and CTS are supposed to be hardcore sport sedans, then you pair them with FWD soft riding SRX and XTS. What is Cadillac trying to be?

[Z-06]

I am not a BMW fan, but the 3-series outsells the ATS like 5 to 1 and ATS sales are down 20% this year. So Cadillac must have missed the mark on something. I don't think Cadillac really understands the luxury market. They copy the 3-series and the Lexus RX, they threw the ELR against the wall to see if it would stick, they figured there are a lot of "traditional" Cadillac buyers so we need an XTS for them, and they got some hits and misses. But overall they don't have a really good plan of attack. Not enough body style and engine choices, not enough focus on brand image, no core value to cling to. The ATS and CTS are supposed to be hardcore sport sedans, then you pair them with FWD soft riding SRX and XTS. What is Cadillac trying to be?

 

Cadillac's failure is in perception. Both internal and external.

[Cmicasa the Great]

I am not a BMW fan, but the 3-series outsells the ATS like 5 to 1 and ATS sales are down 20% this year. So Cadillac must have missed the mark on something. I don't think Cadillac really understands the luxury market. They copy the 3-series and the Lexus RX, they threw the ELR against the wall to see if it would stick, they figured there are a lot of "traditional" Cadillac buyers so we need an XTS for them, and they got some hits and misses. But overall they don't have a really good plan of attack. Not enough body style and engine choices, not enough focus on brand image, no core value to cling to. The ATS and CTS are supposed to be hardcore sport sedans, then you pair them with FWD soft riding SRX and XTS. What is Cadillac trying to be?

 

 

 

 

The 3 Series outsells the ATS really 3:1. As explained to death, look at the available number of 3 series variations. The Coupe alone is 35% of BMW 3series (well 4series) sales last I checked. That's not counting the convertible. Look at that number and it is clear why the ATS is the "1" to the 3series "3". 

 

Second.. how is the XTS a soft rider versus other cars in the segment of it's size. The 740i is not exactly a blvd cutter.. nor is the LS460

[Drew Dowdell]

I am not a BMW fan, but the 3-series outsells the ATS like 5 to 1 and ATS sales are down 20% this year. So Cadillac must have missed the mark on something. I don't think Cadillac really understands the luxury market. They copy the 3-series and the Lexus RX, they threw the ELR against the wall to see if it would stick, they figured there are a lot of "traditional" Cadillac buyers so we need an XTS for them, and they got some hits and misses. But overall they don't have a really good plan of attack. Not enough body style and engine choices, not enough focus on brand image, no core value to cling to. The ATS and CTS are supposed to be hardcore sport sedans, then you pair them with FWD soft riding SRX and XTS. What is Cadillac trying to be?

 

The XTS can be very athletic.... in fact, it probably rides a lot firmer than the E-Class.  The SRX regularly beats the GLK and X3 which are in the same size and price class in sales.

 

I am not a BMW fan, but the 3-series outsells the ATS like 5 to 1 and ATS sales are down 20% this year. So Cadillac must have missed the mark on something. I don't think Cadillac really understands the luxury market. They copy the 3-series and the Lexus RX, they threw the ELR against the wall to see if it would stick, they figured there are a lot of "traditional" Cadillac buyers so we need an XTS for them, and they got some hits and misses. But overall they don't have a really good plan of attack. Not enough body style and engine choices, not enough focus on brand image, no core value to cling to. The ATS and CTS are supposed to be hardcore sport sedans, then you pair them with FWD soft riding SRX and XTS. What is Cadillac trying to be?

 

 

 

 

The 3 Series outsells the ATS really 3:1. As explained to death, look at the available number of 3 series variations. The Coupe alone is 35% of BMW 3series (well 4series) sales last I checked. That's not counting the convertible. Look at that number and it is clear why the ATS is the "1" to the 3series "3". 

 

Second.. how is the XTS a soft rider versus other cars in the segment of it's size. The 740i is not exactly a blvd cutter.. nor is the LS460

 

 

I don't see the XTS as a 7-series competitor, it's more of an option for 5-series/E-Class price-class buyers that want a bit more room.

[smk4565]

Part of Cadillac's problem is lack of body styles and lack of engine choices also.   There needs to be coupe and convertible versions of the ATS and CTS and V-series in a hurry.  The new C-class goes on sale in 2 weeks, but in 2015 calendar year they have the AMG version, a diesel and a plug-in hybrid coming, and coupe and convertible I think for 2016 model year.  The 3-series has had multiple body styles for 30 years, so this isn't some new surprise, yet Cadillac seems slow to roll out model variants. 

 

Cadillac has sold cars in the $40k range for years though, and they seem to be struggling a bit now at it.  So what happens with the LTS when they are really going into uncharted territory.

[Cmicasa the Great]

But this isn't uncharted. The Escalade has certainly sold well into the $80k range since 2008. Before that.. despite it being discontinued.. the XLR started at $80k+ and went up to $120k. My Vseries was well over $70k. If the styling and amenities are there, as they best be, in the LTS, it will sell fine. Again the ATS isn't suffering because of the backseat.. it's suffering because it only comes in one damn choice. If I love the ATS but want a vert... I'm SOL.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Cmicasa the Great