Should Cadillac consider a Black-Series-like V-Series variant?

[ZL-1]

Just saw something re a Black-Series AMG Mercedes , so... Discuss!

[Robert Hall]

Sure, why not..there is always room for excess..V++ models would be interesting. More power, exclusive interior trim, exclusive wheels, etc..

[Drew Dowdell]

you mean something like this?

Cadillac Launches CTS-V Black Diamond Edition

[Robert Hall]

Something like that, but more serious...the M-B Black Series cars have a lot of performance enhancements, lightening, etc..

[balthazar]

I would vote for retaining 'more serious hardware' under the 'V-series' - keep that at the top of the ladder & strengthen it.

[ZL-1]

I would vote for retaining 'more serious hardware' under the 'V-series' - keep that at the top of the ladder & strengthen it.

Well, the idea would be for something more to be developed on top of the V-Series... If the V-Series is already 'all out', then the price gap to the less advanced versions could be too large...

[balthazar]

Then why not slot something under the V, a 'sub-V'... maybe call it the VSport.

I just think it muddies perception & clarity when packages are 'one-upped'. Frankly, without thinking about it, I wasn't sure where the 'black series' fit in the Daimler scheme, except that 'more names' generally means 'higher model'.

[Drew Dowdell]

I'm not exactly sure where, aside from swapping out some body panels for something of a lighter material, they would increase the performance of the CTS-V much more. It already has the worlds best adaptive suspension, I suppose they could make a "trackier" track mode and maybe an underdrive pully on the S/C.... but neither of those would be costly upgrades.

[balthazar]

What are the hardware upgrades on a black series over the stadard AMG?

[Z-06]

More generous use of carbon fiber, more tune, additional aerodynamics, extra weight savings and a rear-load of additional cash from the customers.

[Robert Hall]

It depends on the model...the CLK AMG got fender flares w/ wider tires, racing seats, the rear seat removed, carbon fiber roof, etc. The SL AMG pretty much had a custom body w fixed hardtop, flared fenders, wider tires, lots of carbon fiber parts, etc.

Audi does their enhanced performance performance models with their R line on top of the S line models (like the RS5 or RS6), BMW has had special edition models on the Ms.. there is always room for more performance.

[Drew Dowdell]

If there are buyers that are looking to lighten their wallets then Cadillac should be there to provide that service... however, I'm not seeing the performance increase from fender flares and special seats... the CTS-V already offers a $3000 seat option that is simply perfect anyway, it's just not tied to a "black edition" package.

[Robert Hall]

If there are buyers that are looking to lighten their wallets then Cadillac should be there to provide that service... however, I'm not seeing the performance increase from fender flares and special seats... the CTS-V already offers a $3000 seat option that is simply perfect anyway, it's just not tied to a "black edition" package.

The CLK Black Series also added 25 hp..the fender flares made room for wider wheels and tires for better grip, i would assume. I recall on Top Gear the CLK Black Series being described as terrifying...I've seen one in person--in a Dennys parking lot-- interesting car..really looked like a street version of a DTM race car.

But back to Cadillac, the V-series is pretty impressive as it is, but I'm sure there is room for more excess... A V series coupe w/o the backseat, carbon fiber roof, etc.

Edited December 30, 2013 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[ZL-1]

Not only more excess, but also more pricing power.... The idea is for Cadillac to inch its way into supercar territory, 1st with these limited edition models, then with uber-luxury models

[Z-06]

I am for the idea. The dedicated sub, sub brand name like Black Series or CSL, however, has limited cachet with not much appeal like AMG or M does. Cadillac already has the Platinum edition for the luxury side of the game. For Cadillac to get into supercar territory, it needs a Corvette based GT car, period.

For getting the luxury side, I think in the second generation of a S-Class competitor, it should pull enough weight to be a formidable player. Cadillac at least in US seems to gain some focus and right direction.

[Drew Dowdell]

25 hp is nothing for the CTS-V engine, I guess if there is a market for it, why not?

[balthazar]

'more performance' does not equate to '25 HP' : at that level it's impossible to discern the difference... so as a 'performance upgrade' it's rather pointless (except to Daimler, whom happily pockets the profit). Otherwise, it sounds like a boy racer kit.

I would still prefer strengthening the 'V' brand with optional equipment, and fleshing out the VSport with a good intermediate power level, rather than effectively downgrading the V by making it 'less than top shelf'. The 'V' should continue to spread it's reputation & dominance.

[smk4565]

On Top Gear they once read the warning letter that comes with the CLK Black Series, it was rather funny and basically said never drive the car on wet roads or with traction control off. Some of the Black series cars have carbon fiber drive shafts and carbon fiber body kits, so it is more about weight savings and aero kits, and some increase in power, plus the suspensions are super stiff.

You have to wonder if there is a marker for Cadillac to do this. They only have 2 V-series products in 2015 model year with the ATS and CTS, and they are both sedans, they aren't track cars. If a CTS is going to $70,000 now, you are probably looking at $90,000 for a CTS-V, a car above that could be in the $115k range and does anyone want to pay $115k for a CTS? Plus the suspension would probably be stiffer than a Corvette Z06 and the rear seat possibly deleted to save weight, it just doesn't seem like a Cadillac sort of thing to do.

[balthazar]

^ Cadillac has been doing a LOT of 'non Cadillac things' lately.

[Drew Dowdell]

I just turned in a $61k CTS that I've had for a week. The leap over the previous generation is astounding. Cadillac is really playing in 5-Series territory now so a $100k CTS-V Black Edition doesn't seem unrealistic

[dwightlooi]

Well, given that the "V-Sport" are retailing at previous gen CTS-V prices. The "new" CTS-V and ATS-V are basically your Black Series.

There'll be plenty of power to go around with about 460 bhp from the LT1 and over 600 bhp from the LT4 engines. The key is getting the rest of the package right. It took AMG three generations to figure the formula out. The C43, C32 and C55 cars are... well... a C-class with a lot of motor and little else. It isn't until the W204 the they got their act together.

[smk4565]

I just turned in a $61k CTS that I've had for a week. The leap over the previous generation is astounding. Cadillac is really playing in 5-Series territory now so a $100k CTS-V Black Edition doesn't seem unrealistic

They could build it, but would it sell? GM builds a business case for everything, I think they have to see sales of the CTS-V and ATS-V before they can think about a V black series. Plus all the Black Series AMG cars have been 2 doors, Cadillac doesn't really have any sports cars right now.

[balthazar]

^ Does the AMG black series sell? Not really. But this level of vehicle is not & should not be concerned with either numbers or profit. It's immaterial.

And I WISH 'GM built a business case for everything'- that's nearly the polar opposite of reality.

[Drew Dowdell]

These are halo cars, they dont make a profit directly.