Biggest one day stock drop due to auto Fire in Seattle Suburb

[Drew Dowdell]

Ah... but those who DO want to drive like my example (or are employed by companies that demand they drive) are SOL with electrics. Their range has not expanded in 100 years. I stop at rest stops to pee. Takes 2 minutes.

Google, nav, same diff!

The range has not expanded? X

False: The Detroit Electric could go 180 miles on a charge but its top speed was 20 miles per hour, not exactly a fair comparison. The Nissan Leaf can do normal highways speeds and has a range of 100 miles. The Model S (in top configuration) can do Cadillac CTS-V like speeds and acceleration, and has a better range than our CR-V. (265 miles for the Tesla, we're sucking fumes at 260 miles on the CR-V). The Chevy Spark EV has 400 ft-lbs of torque... just about the same as a new Silverado 5.3 V8. I think GM made a mistake in configuring that car though, with more battery and less torque it would have been just as driver friendly with more range.

[Intrepidation]

Hell, you could just look at the EV1 as a case study in battery advancement improving range over time.

Cars with the lead-acid pack had a range of 80 to 100 miles, while the NiMH cars could travel between 100 and 140 miles between charges

[Drew Dowdell]

So, riding in a Tesla over 1400 miles is exactly like sitting in a warm bubblebath, with no stress whatsoever? Not that I'd want to do it in a CR-V of your vintage either... my Bug is pretty darn comfortable and quiet up to 100 mph (that's as fast as I've had it so far), and I can go 635 miles in my car before I have to stop for fuel.

The Model S is quieter than any ICE powered car on the road, diesel or gas. It has acres of torque, which you and I both love, and it rides like an XTS. As far as stress free driving goes, the Model S will be pretty close to the top of the list.

[Drew Dowdell]

Hell, you could just look at the EV1 as a case study in battery advancement improving range over time.

Cars with the lead-acid pack had a range of 80 to 100 miles, while the NiMH cars could travel between 100 and 140 miles between charges

While true, that also doesn't account for the difference in performance. The EV1 was an 8 second 0-60, the LEAF is 7 second 0-60 (1 second faster than the Beetle TDi), the Model S is a CTS-V like 4.2 seconds. Had performance remained the same, I'm betting that range would have been even longer.

[Z-06]

I want a nuclear powered car.

[ocnblu]

Z-06!

Now see, you guys got some good information posted about your little humming "cars" that some ppl might find interesting! See how that whole "pro and con" thing works???

The Leaf "car" can travel, maybe, one second faster to 60 mph than my car with a good driver... but I can stay on the road for 635 miles before stopping to fuel up... and it takes me about ten minutes to fill my diesel tank... how much time is lost driving a Leaf "car" over 635 miles? WAY more than one second, buckaroos.

Edited October 6, 2013 by ocnblu

[ocnblu]

Oh well, they totally look the same!....? Remember that word irrational? Yeah, applies here too.

Whoa, Andy, thanks for making my point re: "lozenge", you even picked the right color of lozenge to drive it all home. Nice!

[Drew Dowdell]

Z-06!

Now see, you guys got some good information posted about your little humming "cars" that some ppl might find interesting! See how that whole "pro and con" thing works???

The Leaf "car" can travel, maybe, one second faster to 60 mph than my car with a good driver... but I can stay on the road for 635 miles before stopping to fuel up... and it takes me about ten minutes to fill my diesel tank... how much time is lost driving a Leaf "car" over 635 miles? WAY more than one second, buckaroos.

The Model S can travel way faster, recharges in 30 minutes every 250 miles. If you're home every night, every morning you'll have a 265 mile range when you leave for work, you never have to stop for a fill up during your day to day routine.. that saves you more time in the long run than 600 mile fill ups.

[Robert Hall]

Has there been any real criticism against electric cars on this website? I thought people here wanted energy diversity and the ability for 'Murica to not have to send any more oil money to Saudi madrassas.

If you hate electric cars, you hate America.

I think there are people on this site that are stuck in the past and have no interest or understanding of where the automobile is today and where it is going in the future...it's very much a traditional, conservative mindset, afraid of evolution and new technology. The future is going see a variety of energy sources and engine technologies...

Edited October 6, 2013 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[ocnblu]

You should get one of those diesel Grand Cherokees with the 8 speed automatic. I think you'd love it.

[Drew Dowdell]

I think he'd love the Grand Cherokee Ecodiesel too, but not to the point of pissing on electric vehicles.

[Robert Hall]

I think he'd love the Grand Cherokee Ecodiesel too, but not to the point of pissing on electric vehicles.

Agreed.. the GC diesel is a very appealing proposition to me. But I find Tesla exciting because they are not only a new American car company but also a Silicon Valley high tech company success story..and I'm still a techie first and foremost.

Gas, diesel, electric, fuel cell, etc.. I think there are a lot of configurations that are going to be strong in the future..not necessarily limited to one fuel source/powerplant type...

[Drew Dowdell]

More trouble for Tesla: Industry, stock market react in wake of Tesla flat tire

This devastating incident proves that the Tesla is not immune to the perils of ordinary cars. Clearly, these so-called ‘electric cars’ are not ready for prime time.”

[G. David Felt]

Intersting is that while there have been CNG auto's and buses that caught fire, not a single auto here in the US was caused by a puncture to the CNG Tank. The fires have all been attributed to electrical issues or in the case of the CNG bus here in Seattle the rear brakes froze up on a cold frozen morning last year and caught the bus on fire.

CNG gives one long distance driving with the right size tank.

Electric, while good has a long way to go as the Nissan leaf really is an 80 mile auto but they all have the same issue. A level 3 still take 30 min to charge. So in the low priced Electric auto's you cannot really get out of washignton in one day due to the amount of time sitting at a recharge station compared to petrol or CNG.

So to go 500 - 750 miles in a Tesla, you will spend at least 1 1/2hrs charging after your 250 miles run which makes it harder to go on through the night drives.

Course I know not many do 18hr drives to go places, but some of us do and trying to get some place special is much harder in electric than it is in Petrol or CNG.

Back on Tesla, I do find it interesting that they have a modular battery pack and I wonder if in the future they will make the front of the car into a quick clip for fire departments to disconnect from the rest of the car so they can save the back 2/3rds and you just get a new front clip?

More trouble for Tesla: Industry, stock market react in wake of Tesla flat tire

This devastating incident proves that the Tesla is not immune to the perils of ordinary cars. Clearly, these so-called ‘electric cars’ are not ready for prime time.”

Nice Sarcasim!

[Drew Dowdell]

What percentage of the population drives 500 - 750 miles at a time and what percentage of trips do they do that?

I'd say that I'm a pretty rigorous driver and I still have trouble going more than 500 miles in a day, even then, I require at least one food break and more than one bathroom break. A 500 mile trip with one 30 minute stop in the middle is going to still be on the extreme end of most road trips. Even in my CR-V this is a requirement because at the 250 mile mark I need to fill up the gas tank and probably take a food and pee break while Albert probably needs to stop for his 7th coffee.

If someone buys a Model S and needs to drive 1,000 miles, they've also got the dough to either fly or the smarts to rent a car. I can pick up a CTS from National for a week and unlimited mileage for $450. For a 1,000 mile trip, renting the car is actually more cost effective at the current $0.556 depreciation rate. If I am less concerned with the type of car, the financial aspect tilts even more in favor of renting.

For the day to day, the average American doesn't drive more than 75 miles a day and a large number don't drive more than 40 miles a day. This is why the Volt's EV mode range is about 40 miles and the Leaf is at 80. The base Tesla Model-S has a range of 208 miles.

Can we please be a little more realistic about how most people use their cars on a day to day routine?

[G. David Felt]

Valid point Drew as while I drive about 100 miles on the light side a day, I average about 30K miles a year on my escalade as I love road trips and going to explore places. So I know I drive much more than most. With that said, for me, I tend to not stop for meals when I drive, I tend to drink and use a bio break but otherwise love to drive. One Reason I love that with the conversion to CNG on my Suburban, I will have a average range of 900 Miles on a CNG Fill up.

[Robert Hall]

I drive less than 10k miles per year, split between 2 cars... normal commute is less than 50 miles a day. If it's over 200 miles, I usually fly..(being in the middle of Arizona, there isn't really much within 300 miles or so that I would go to).

[Intrepidation]

I drive less than 20 miles around trip for work each day. Usually on a day off I will drive 50 miles around trip to do shopping. The last time I went anywhere that would exceed 200 miles in a single trip was KS last year.

[Z-06]

I drive less than 10k miles per year, split between 2 cars... normal commute is less than 50 miles a day. If it's over 200 miles, I usually fly..(being in the middle of Arizona, there isn't really much within 300 miles or so that I would go to).

Then you need a Volt more than a Tesla.

[balthazar]

Electrics will never serve my needs until possibly retirement (which is never), but I'm not against them.

Seeing the massive market penetration of hybrids (3%), it's clear pure electrics (0.3% IIRC) will take decades to even be a strong niche, never mind commonplace. That's fine; the market work things out at it's own pace. In a perfect world, I'd prefer a turbine.

My daily miles are different every day, one day last week it was 180, and It has been as low as around 10. Farthest distance was about 140 miles one way, but I drove down Monday mornings and drove home Wednesday evenings. This was a few months, over 2 winters, and about 8-9 years ago. A fluke.

[G. David Felt]

I think a larger version of the VOLT power train on a Half ton truck and Suburban would do wonders as you could use the Torque of the electric motors to move the mass and have a decent mileage from the generator. GM is missing the boat here.

I agree with Balthazar that it is going to take a long time to convert people over to pure electric.

[Drew Dowdell]

It's going to take even longer with people spreading unfounded F.U.D. like in this thread, though I'm sure that it's the goal.

[balthazar]

I believe that those interested in an electric will do the small degree of research required to find out all about range & charging requirements & see if it suits them.
But we're already on a decade-plus trial run with hybrids; so far they have extremely limited appeal, and there's no where near the degree of unfounded rumors around them today.

I harbor no illusions that electrics are suddenly going to take off and reach even 15% of the market within the next 20 years. It would take an earth-moving turn of events to do that.

Edited October 9, 2013 by balthazar

[FAPTurbo]

But we're already on a decade-plus trial run with hybrids; so far they have extremely limited appeal, and there's no where near the degree of unfounded rumors around them today.

Hybrids are not electric cars. They still require fuelling-up and the perceived fuel savings are dubious. They can't be used as a future predictor of electric car sales.

I harbor no illusions that electrics are suddenly going to take off and reach even 15% of the market within the next 20 years. It would take an earth-moving turn of events to do that.

Self-driving vehicles will likely be electric at the time of mass release. Many people hate driving. I wouldn't be surprised if self-driving vehicles, and by extension, electrification, mirrors the rapid adoption of computers/smartphones.

[balthazar]

Yet hybrids do encompass electric propulsion, do they not? WRT 'unfounded rumors', they certainly were subject to that, and no doubt some still subscribe to such rumors. Will/does 'unfounded rumors' affect market performance of pure electrics? I believe so, at least initially.

Electrics also still require 'fueling', but with less availability of public stations to date, and usually with notably greater frequencies. That is also a potential factor WRT consumer acceptance, until the frequency of public charging stations become as common as gas stations. I hear & don't disagree with the 'average daily miles driven' claim, but OEM advertising still state fuel ranges as if it were otherwise, and some quantity of consumers give weight to those numbers.

Self-drivers face a much higher price mountain to beat down than hybrids did/do. Of course it'll come down, but if the tech/equipment currently costs $150K as stated elsewhere, there's not going to be a 'mass release' anytime in the near future. Could be, but something is going to have to change somewhere. I agree it probably has a widespread intrigue factor, but a palatable price is going to have to be offered or forget it. You do recall all the flap over the Volt's MSRP of $40K, yes?

Further, what will combining a pure electric powertrain AND self-driving computers do to price? They're not going to be $30K unless heavily subsidize or sold at a screaming loss.

[Drew Dowdell]

We're not going to see any sudden jumps in either electrics or self driving cars, it will be gradual adoption of both. Prior to self driving cars, we'll have cars that can take evasive maneuvers to avoid a collision. We're already seeing that with active braking collision avoidance and with the Benzes that will nudge you back into your lane if you start to drift. The steps from today to fully self driving are incremental, not a giant leap.

Hybrids aren't a good measure of what will happen with electrics because, as stated above, the mileage benefit of hybrids is currently dubious for the first 80k - 100k miles. The manufacturers followed up their hybrid offerings with standard ICE cars that pushed recent records for fuel economy, but they didn't impliment that additional fuel savings technology on their hybrid cars. In essence, they shot their hybrids in the foot on the market place.

I expect that Telsa, with its Steve Jobs like leader will probably be the disturbing force in the market. Now that they've woken GM up as well, the rest will snowball.

[G. David Felt]

The next few years will be interesting times to see how GM, Ford and others respond to Tesla.

Makes one wonder if GM would bring back their Skateboard concept platform. Think of this for the Suburban where you can slid in a massive battery pack and get 3-400 miles on a charge.

[Drew Dowdell]

I doubt we'll see more than a 250 mile to 300 mile range on EVs any time soon. The batteries are just too expensive and most people don't need that kind of range.

[Robert Hall]

I doubt we'll see more than a 250 mile to 300 mile range on EVs any time soon. The batteries are just too expensive and most people don't need that kind of range.

Yes, and for real-world use, 250 miles is plenty enough to go between charges.

[G. David Felt]

I think you guys are wrong as just with petrol auto's people wanted big tanks to make sure they did not get stuck some place without fuel, I can see people wanting a 300-400 mile battery pack to make sure they do not run out of a charge and then once the pack is down to 1/3 rd power they recharge it.

Especially in Cold climates with heavy snow fall, if they get stuck on the road, having extra charge to keep you warm will come in handly.

[Drew Dowdell]

Until very recently with the latest crop of high efficiency 4-cylinder, a lot of cars simply don't have the kind of range you are talking about.... and even the ones that do only have it accidentally.

There is no point in a Cruze Eco carrying around 17, 18, 22 gallons of gas... that is a 700 to 900 mile range for that car but it is also something that would hurt fuel efficiency. As it is with just the 15 gallon tank, the Cruze Eco can run 570 miles on the highway.

The reason I say it is accidental is because the cars are usually designed with tanks that give acceptable ranges for the least efficient engine on the platform. In this case, I would guess that to be the 2.0T in the Buick Verano Turbo, which at 30mpg, gives the Verano Turbo a highway cruising range of 450 miles.... much more in line with industry standard.

[ocnblu]

No need to "answer" Tesla. They'll never speak to the masses. Only weird folk.

[Robert Hall]

No need to "answer" Tesla. They'll never speak to the masses. Only weird folk.

Hardly...the Tesla owners I know tend to be successful, well educated tech industry people...not weird.

[Z-06]

Until very recently with the latest crop of high efficiency 4-cylinder, a lot of cars simply don't have the kind of range you are talking about.... and even the ones that do only have it accidentally.

There is no point in a Cruze Eco carrying around 17, 18, 22 gallons of gas... that is a 700 to 900 mile range for that car but it is also something that would hurt fuel efficiency. As it is with just the 15 gallon tank, the Cruze Eco can run 570 miles on the highway.

The reason I say it is accidental is because the cars are usually designed with tanks that give acceptable ranges for the least efficient engine on the platform. In this case, I would guess that to be the 2.0T in the Buick Verano Turbo, which at 30mpg, gives the Verano Turbo a highway cruising range of 450 miles.... much more in line with industry standard.

Cruze Eco has a 12.6 gallon tank - reduced from conventional Cruze tank of 15.6 gallons to save weight. Thus giving a theoretical range of 529.2 miles based on EPA highway estimates for stick.

[FAPTurbo]

DEM WEIRD FOLK WITH DOSE SIX FIGURE SALARIES, BOOK LEARNIN' N' IDEAS THAT THE EARTH WUDN'T CREATED BY A JESUS.

[Drew Dowdell]

We're not going to see any sudden jumps in either electrics or self driving cars, it will be gradual adoption of both. Prior to self driving cars, we'll have cars that can take evasive maneuvers to avoid a collision. We're already seeing that with active braking collision avoidance and with the Benzes that will nudge you back into your lane if you start to drift. The steps from today to fully self driving are incremental, not a giant leap.

Hybrids aren't a good measure of what will happen with electrics because, as stated above, the mileage benefit of hybrids is currently dubious for the first 80k - 100k miles. The manufacturers followed up their hybrid offerings with standard ICE cars that pushed recent records for fuel economy, but they didn't impliment that additional fuel savings technology on their hybrid cars. In essence, they shot their hybrids in the foot on the market place.

I expect that Telsa, with its Steve Jobs like leader will probably be the disturbing force in the market. Now that they've woken GM up as well, the rest will snowball.

As I was saying yesterday, the steps to self driving cars will be incremental - Ford Debuts Obstacle Avoidance Technology

Until very recently with the latest crop of high efficiency 4-cylinder, a lot of cars simply don't have the kind of range you are talking about.... and even the ones that do only have it accidentally.

There is no point in a Cruze Eco carrying around 17, 18, 22 gallons of gas... that is a 700 to 900 mile range for that car but it is also something that would hurt fuel efficiency. As it is with just the 15 gallon tank, the Cruze Eco can run 570 miles on the highway.

The reason I say it is accidental is because the cars are usually designed with tanks that give acceptable ranges for the least efficient engine on the platform. In this case, I would guess that to be the 2.0T in the Buick Verano Turbo, which at 30mpg, gives the Verano Turbo a highway cruising range of 450 miles.... much more in line with industry standard.

Cruze Eco has a 12.6 gallon tank - reduced from conventional Cruze tank of 15.6 gallons to save weight. Thus giving a theoretical range of 529.2 miles based on EPA highway estimates for stick.

bah... well ANY OTHER PLATFORM then! VW doesn't decrease the size of the tanks on the TDI models

[daves87rs]

I kinda laughed a little when Telsa came out, wasn't so sure of the cars. Now, and even after being in one, I'd own one in a hot second. You really have to see it to understand what I mean. If comes off as a really nice lux car.......

That being said, If I was given a choice of of these, I'd go Volt at the moment. Not for any reason but the one being it has a backup plan if you need it. Like, what if the power is out (like a storm?)Or the station you get to is down? Gas is still easy to get, nearly anywhere. If Drew is right, we'll see plenty more stations, but it still will be a while before it is common. Unless I could plug it in at the local Panera....then we are talking....

Or it could be as simple as having a Cruze as backup to go with your Telsa.....

[G. David Felt]

I really do not see level 3 fast chargers going into to many shopping malls and stand alone places like a panera at all. Level 1 & 2 is just too slow while they have gone up all over, you see most of them empty and or having a bag over the machine now and allowing any vehicle to park in the spot. Level 3 charge stations will go up but need plenty of room for the cars to sit for their 30min charge time. Level 1 & 2 mostly at homes. Wasted to have them installed at Park and Rides. They never get used.

Having a Fast Fill Level 3 charging station will take up tons of room as I saw the Tesla Charge station at Bellevue Mall. Now I know they put it in considering that they have their sales location diagonally across the street and with Bellevue having a average house hold income of $115,696 per the Bellevue City records you have the right income group to buy the cars. Yet with this the charge station takes up way more room than I thought it would with all the Level 3 chargers and space given the cars. Will take a picture next time I am in Bellevue.

[Drew Dowdell]

I think you are projecting your own observations from that park-n-ride a bit too much.

Around here we're getting level 2 charging stations in malls, downtown parking garages, hospital parking, and hotels.

EV charging takes a substantial shift in driving mentality. EVs don't need to fill from empty to full each time you plug them in, you only need to charge it enough to get you to your next charge.

Basically, you don't have to wait until the battery is full if a 35% charge is more than enough to get you home. It is a different way of thinking. So while a Level 2 charger may take 4 hours to charge your Leaf from Empty to Full, you'll probably pull up with a 25% charge and only need a 35% charge to get you home. This cuts the charge time down substantially to where the effective time spent charging is still only about 30 minutes.

[Robert Hall]

The parking garage of one my company's clients put in 4 chargers back in June, they expanded to 8 a couple weeks ago because of demand...I've seen a mix of Volts (incl. a colleague's), a Leaf, a Tesla roadster and a couple of Tesla Ses using them... my colleague gets to work around 7:30, plugs in, then at lunch goes out and disconnects..

(though I've read that the charger provider is in trouble (Blink Network).

Edited October 10, 2013 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[Drew Dowdell]

At the garage that I park in when I drive to work rather than bus it, there are only 2 chargers, but they have recently designated 5 spaces nearby as spill over for EVs that are waiting to charge or are done charging and owners move them. The status of the charger is available on the internet (Free/Busy) so that when the charger frees up you can walk over and hook up your car.

I'm guessing that they just did this because it will take a while for additional chargers to be installed. There are 3 Leafs and 2 Volts that I see there regularly.

[G. David Felt]

Yet here in the Pacific Northwest where we have plenty of Tree Huggers, you find most Charging stations covered in Trash bags so the public can park. BIG Waste of money on installing charging stations when you can charge at home.

http://www.cheersandgears.com/_/alt-fuels-news/fumes-tax-payer-supplied-charging-stations-ar-r1171

Remember I did this story on them and posted the pictures which still today have the garbage bags on them.

In this case, the overbuilding of charging stations is taking valuable space away from the average auto, especially at the Park N Rides. Might be different in other areas of the country, but here Electric is not taking off even with our cheapest electric rates in the country.

[Drew Dowdell]

You wrote that almost a year ago. You should start contacting the responsible entities and ask why those charging stations are still bagged over.

[Drew Dowdell]

But are you also following how the "fill it, regular" mentality doesn't apply to EVs? This may become a whole separate article.

[G. David Felt]

Good Point, but then what I have read on the charging is that it is not good to do short charges. Maybe an article on battery life and how charging cycles affect their life and how the Auto Companies are suggesting best charge practices.

[ocnblu]

NOT ANOTHER ONE!?

[ocnblu]

Well, I guess it's just not shocking any more. Sigh, another day, another Tesla fire... BFD, huh?

[G. David Felt]

Interesting, I wonder what Tesla has to say about this latest one.

[Drew Dowdell]

72 Honda 2003 - 2004 CR-Vs have been destroyed by engine fire due to a flawed oil filter mounting design.

At least 17 CRVs have reported fire damage from power window switches that shorted out when exposed to rain.

[G. David Felt]

True, they build 10's of thousands of auto's compared to Tesla's numbers.