GM faces Canadian class-action lawsuit

[Dragon]

http://www.autonet.ca/News/story.cfm?story...1549930-cp.html

by GARY NORRIS -- Canadian Press posted April 25, 2006

TORONTO - General Motors faces a possible class-action lawsuit over allegedly defective intake manifold gaskets in 400,000 cars in Canada - a claim which lawyers say might total $1.2 billion.

Toronto law firm Stevensons LLP said Tuesday it is suing General Motors of Canada Ltd. and its U.S. parent, General Motors Corp. (NYSE:GM), the world's largest automaker.

The action claims that various Buick, Chevrolet, Oldsmobile and Pontiac engines from the 1995 to 2003 model years have intake manifold gaskets which degrade prematurely and allow coolant to leak into the engine.

"The claim here is based on problems that have surfaced right across North America arising from the fact that General Motors used nylon or other plastics in the manufacture of the intake manifold gasket," stated lawyer Colin Stevenson.

"The coolant can cause serious problems once it escapes," Stevenson added.

"In some cases the engines overheat and seize completely. The vehicles often need complete engine replacements at considerable expense to the owners."

The statement of claim says General Motors introduced a new gasket in 2004 but refuses to acknowledge a defect in the previous part.

The group of lawyers working on the case said it's too early to determine how much money will be sought from GM, but estimated that 400,000 vehicles in Canada would be covered by the proposed class action, with a possible average claim of $3,000 each, totalling $1.2 billion.

A Stevensons website (www.classproceedings.ca) says similar actions in the United States "have been hard-fought and continue to be pursued in various jurisdictions," with a class action certified in January in Missouri.

The next stage in Ontario is for the lead plaintiffs to confer with the judge managing the potential class action.

-

The vehicles involved, according to Toronto law firm Stevensons LLP:

1995-1997 Buick Riviera

1995-1998/2000-2003 Buick LeSabre

1995-1998/2000-2003 Buick Park Avenue

1996-1998/2000-2003 Buick Regal

2000-2003 Buick Century

2002 Buick Rendezvous

1996/1998-2001 Chevrolet Lumina

1998-2003 Chevrolet Monte Carlo

1997-2003 Chevrolet Venture

1999-2003 Chevrolet Malibu

2000-2003 Chevrolet Impala

1995-1998 Oldsmobile Ninety Eight

1995-1998 Oldsmobile Eighty Eight

1998 Oldsmobile Intrigue

1996-2003 Oldsmobile Silhouette

1999 Oldsmobile Cutlass

1999-2003 Oldsmobile Alero

1995-1998/2000-2003 Pontiac Bonneville

1997-1998/2000-2003 Pontiac Grand Prix

1996-1999 Pontiac Trans Sport

1999-2003 Pontiac Grand Am

1999-2003 Pontiac Montana

2001-2003 Pontiac Aztec

Too bad this list doesn't include j-bodies...I could really use $6,000

[ellives]

What's a thousand dead lawyers at the bottom of the ocean?

Answer: A good start

I hope the scumbag lawyers investigate whether the owners of these so-called defective engines actually maintained the coolant in these engines.

http://www.autonet.ca/News/story.cfm?story...1549930-cp.html

Too bad this list doesn't include j-bodies...I could really use $6,000

[76ChevyTrucker]

That's something I'm always curious about when it comes to "defective" intake manifold gaskets on those engines. I know that the coolant can degrade the gasket, but only after the coolant is allowed to age and become contaminated.

[sciguy_0504]

Sniff, sniff...Toyota sludge "problem," anyone?

[XP715]

I can only speak for the 3800 from personal experience, but it seems like they're acting like the dreaded intake manifold gasket problem came out of nowhere; it's happened to a million people, myself included. My '96 Riviera ate it hard back in January and now has a 13,000-mile engine in it from an '04 LeSabre. Soon after we had the gasket done in my mother's '99 Bonneville as a precautionary measure. Bottom line is it depends on quality of materials. I know the earlier 3800's have a plastic intake manifold while the later ones are made out of aluminum; the gasket material didn't change for many years but it seems that the ones with the plastic intake manifolds leak more often than not. Maybe if GM hadn't cheaped out on the first generation Series II 3800's and other engines they wouldn't be facing this bull$h! lawsuit now.

[thegriffon]

This type of thing rarely goes anywhere. The definition of "prematurely" is too subjective. In addition companies are taking a much harder line against tort lawyers over the abuses and outright fraud that are endemic to class actions, standing their ground and demanding disbarment and criminal charges.

[I hope GMRULES again]

I hate lawyers but I hate even more the fact that GM looked the other way with this problem and so many people got screwed with this repair so I hope the lawyers take them to the cleaners. This problem alone has caused them to loose hundreds of thousands of customers and they're just too dumb to see it. Just the other night I had to take it on the chin about this problem when I was defending GM when some jerkoff at a party I was at was saying all GM cars are junk.

At least they could of started telling owners 5 years ago when the started seeing this problem to take their cars to the dealer to have the engine looked at, maybe change the coolant for free, pick up some of the tab or something like that but they chose to look the other way.

Dam fools

Edited April 26, 2006 by I hope GMRULES again

[I hope GMRULES again]

This type of thing rarely goes anywhere. The definition of "prematurely" is too subjective. In addition companies are taking a much harder line against tort lawyers over the abuses and outright fraud that are endemic to class actions, standing their ground and demanding disbarment and criminal charges.

Wheather this does go anywhere or not the fact is this was a huge problem that caused them to loose thousands and thousands of customers and if they would of had the brains to accept responsibility they would of been better off in the long run. People don't mind if you make a mistake and own up to it but people really, really get pissed off if they know a manufacturer has a defect and does nothing to help them. Edited April 26, 2006 by I hope GMRULES again

[Sixty8panther]

I love GM but I think they did F*** up in this case... as well

as XPs car I know of a few other people who have had V6

(3800, 3100, 3400) intake problems. Too bad, GM does NOT

need bad PR right now, they get plenty already.

[CARBIZ]

What is the difference between a lawyer and a catfish?

One is a bottom feeding, scum sucker and the other is a FISH.

[sciguy_0504]

What is the difference between a lawyer and a catfish?

 

  One is a bottom feeding, scum sucker and the other is a FISH.

Reminds me of when someone does something disasterously wrong and then blames someone else.

[scharmer05]

yeah i think GM royally screwed in this case. I know many people who have been affected by this, including myself on my 95 bonneville. Luckily the the engine didn't go.

[CARBIZ]

Out of the tens of millions of these engines that have been produced, how many were effected by this "problem?" That is the real issue.

No vehicle is perfect, nor ever could be. As was said above, "premature" is a very difficult word. Toyota bodies rotted and rusted out "prematurely" - remember the mid-80s Tercel hatchbacks? But who defines "premature?"

[frogger]

I would guess a relatively high percentage of owners have had this problem vs other common high $ repair issues on cars with less than 72,000 miles out there but it would be tough case for them to win.

[I hope GMRULES again]

Some of the cars not list are affected too. Why is the 97-2000 Lumina with the 3100 on the list but not the Grand Am from those years that had the same engine?

[Mr.Krinkle]

ya know, for the torquiness and satisfaction i get from driving my car i wouldnt even blame gm if it blew up now...its got 100k + and i enjoy the hell out of it.

it's had a mystery leak for the longest time and i still dont care...its a trooper.

i just wonder how long before this case appears here in the US.

the whole thing seems frivolous to me. how long can you blame other people?

id like to see some %'s of actual engines built and so called problem engines.

just for reference, of course.

Edited April 27, 2006 by Mr.Krinkle

[ShadowDog]

I hope the scumbag lawyers investigate whether the owners of these so-called defective engines actually maintained the coolant in these engines.

Not that I care about this issue much; however, maintenance wasn't an issue. The intake gaskets in the '95 Monte Carlo Z34 I owned went out at 60k kms with little help from me. I replaced them myself, and they really were garbage parts. It seems the tradition continued to the next engine under the hood, the Series II.

Edited April 27, 2006 by ShadowDog

[daves87rs]

I doubt this is going to light anytime soon...

Anybody remember the 95 -99 (and now beyond 00-02) head gasket issues with the Neons?

And that affected well over 75 percent of the cars...and there was never a major recall.....

Worse come to worse-Gm could offer to replace the intake at little or no cost...

The other issue being that it can also be brought on by ABUSE....

[Mr.Krinkle]

luck of the draw, i guess.

[Polish_Kris]

Yeah, I remember the dealership I worked at, there have been lots of customers coming back with this problem. The intake manifold would cause the coolant to leak out, and once there was a seized engine that came back because of that, like the article says. Little cost-cutting like this ruin GM's reputation for the long-run.

[Polish_Kris]

Sniff, sniff...Toyota sludge "problem," anyone?

Ok, get over it, Toyota took care of that problem already, and it's been all over the press three years back.

[Justin Bimmer]

GM has a recall to replace plenum screws on the 3800II engine. Its real reason to recall the screws is so that they can inspect the manifold gasket and try and tell you if it needs to be replaced at the cost of YOUR dollar.

I had a crooked dealer tell me my gasket was shot. Took it to my trusted GM mechanic of 30 years and he said there was nothing wrong with mine as he has seens tons of leaking gaskets.

[CARBIZ]

Again, "tons of leaking gaskets" is meaningless, unless compared against the backdrop of how many engines were produced. 10,000 gaskets against 10 million engines is nothing. Of course, it would suck to be the person it happens to, but if your engine is losing coolant and you do nothing about it it is YOUR fault, not GM's.

I think part of the problem, and I have said this before, is that Toyota and HOnda, being relative new kids on the block, have trained their customers better. I have seen customers justify $6,000 in repairs on an 8 year old Volvo, yet still call the car a "great" car. Import buyers truly have a different mindset.

Think about it: if you deliberately spent $3,000 more for a Corolla than you would have for the same equipped Cavalier, would you not maintain it better? Wash it, wax it, make sure it got to the dealer more often? Because in your mind, you bought a "premium" car.

GM is going to catch hell for this, for sure. Already, the bleeding heart Toronto f'ing Star put the gaskets on the front page yesterday - FRONT PAGE. It isn't front page news until proven. The National Post put it in the business section where it belongs.

Again, the media is smelling blood and will fan the $h! out of this.......

[daves87rs]

Ok, get over it, Toyota took care of that problem already, and it's been all over the press three years back.

Really? Guess you don't work at a toyota dealership then....

[daves87rs]

Again, "tons of leaking gaskets" is meaningless, unless compared against the backdrop of how many engines were produced.  10,000 gaskets against 10 million engines is nothing.  Of course, it would suck to be the person it happens to, but if your engine is losing coolant and you do nothing about it it is YOUR fault, not GM's.

  I think part of the problem, and I have said this before, is that Toyota and HOnda, being relative new kids on the block, have trained their customers better.  I have seen customers justify $6,000 in repairs on an 8 year old Volvo, yet still call the car a "great" car.  Import buyers truly have a different mindset.

  Think about it: if you deliberately spent $3,000 more for a Corolla than you would have for the same equipped Cavalier, would you not maintain it better?  Wash it, wax it, make sure it got to the dealer more often?  Because in your mind, you bought a "premium" car.

  GM is going to catch hell for this, for sure.  Already, the bleeding heart Toronto f'ing Star put the gaskets on the front page yesterday - FRONT PAGE.  It isn't front page news until proven.  The National Post put it in the business section where it belongs.

Again, the media is smelling blood and will fan the $h! out of this.......

Too late, already on the news....

[I hope GMRULES again]

Again, "tons of leaking gaskets" is meaningless, unless compared against the backdrop of how many engines were produced.  10,000 gaskets against 10 million engines is nothing.  Of course, it would suck to be the person it happens to, but if your engine is losing coolant and you do nothing about it it is YOUR fault, not GM's.

  I think part of the problem, and I have said this before, is that Toyota and HOnda, being relative new kids on the block, have trained their customers better.  I have seen customers justify $6,000 in repairs on an 8 year old Volvo, yet still call the car a "great" car.  Import buyers truly have a different mindset.

  Think about it: if you deliberately spent $3,000 more for a Corolla than you would have for the same equipped Cavalier, would you not maintain it better?  Wash it, wax it, make sure it got to the dealer more often?  Because in your mind, you bought a "premium" car.

  GM is going to catch hell for this, for sure.  Already, the bleeding heart Toronto f'ing Star put the gaskets on the front page yesterday - FRONT PAGE.  It isn't front page news until proven.  The National Post put it in the business section where it belongs.

Again, the media is smelling blood and will fan the $h! out of this.......

I agree with some of your comments but the fact is this is a WIDE spread problem that they have known about for 5 years and they have chosen to do nothing about it. If I were GM and I knew there were millions of cars an the road that could possibly have this problem and would be pulling out all the stops to get in touch with these owners to save these engines. I mean its the engine for christ sake not a sun visors that comes loose. I personnaly know 7-8 people who had this problem and whenever I talk to someone with a 3.1 or 3.4 if they haven't had the problem yet I tell them to pay extra attention to this area. And let's not blame the people who may not of had there cars serviced because GM has been putting the sticker under the hood that says,

"This vehicle has Dexcool coolant which does not require changing for 5 years or 240,000 KM or 160,000 miles" since 1996. About 5 years ago GM took out full page ads in my local paper telling owners with 1996 model years vehicles to have the collant changed but the was the last time I ever saw anything about it.

Edited April 28, 2006 by I hope GMRULES again

[sciguy_0504]

Ok, get over it, Toyota took care of that problem already, and it's been all over the press three years back.

Notice problem was in quotes. I was poking fun at the people who jumped on Toyota's backs for maintenance issues.

[Satty]

Reminds me of when someone does something disasterously wrong and then blames someone else.

The intelligence we had at the time said that Iraq had weapons of mass......

[Snate]

The intelligence we had at the time said that Iraq had weapons of mass......

yea no there wasn't..only evidence was 15 years old.

[sciguy_0504]

The intelligence we had at the time said that Iraq had weapons of mass......

Education works wonders. Try it sometime and not from Howard's talking points.

[ellives]

I don't believe Dexcool is ONLY 160K miles. I'm sure there is a time limit as well. Dexcool has been controversial since it's introduction. I certainly would not push any lifespan limits with it. The easiest way to kill and engine is to neglect the coolant. (A *LOT* of "pro" mechanics are lax and/or ignorant about this point in my experience.)

I agree with some of your comments  but the fact is this is a WIDE spread problem that they have known about for 5 years and they have chosen to do nothing about it. If I were GM and I knew there were millions of cars an the road that could possibly have this problem and would be pulling out all the stops to get in touch with these owners to save these engines. I mean its the engine for christ sake not a sun visors that comes loose. I personnaly know 7-8 people who had this problem and whenever I talk to someone with a 3.1 or 3.4 if they haven't had the problem yet I tell them to pay extra attention to this area. And let's not blame the people who may not of had there cars serviced because GM has been putting the sticker under the hood that says"

This vehicle had Dexcool coolant which does not require changing until 240,000 KM or 160,000 miles" since 1996. About 5 years ago GM took out full page ads in my local paper telling owners with 1996 model years vehicles to have the collant changed but the was the last time I ever saw anything about it.

[I hope GMRULES again]

I don't believe Dexcool is ONLY 160K miles. I'm sure there is a time limit as well. Dexcool has been controversial since it's introduction. I certainly would not push any lifespan limits with it. The easiest way to kill and engine is to neglect the coolant. (A *LOT* of "pro" mechanics are lax and/or ignorant about this point in my experience.)

I agree. The limit is 160K or 5 years but Keeping Dexcool in there for that long is crazy. That was another one of GM's bright idea that came back to bite them in the ass. Remember when it first came out they were advertising low maintenance because the coolant wouldn't need changing for 5 years. A lot of people blame the Dexcool for the problems cause it did start happening in 96-97 when Dexcool was introduced but it did only happen on 3 engines so it was probably a combination of the Dexcool and a gasket that wasn't compatable with it.

[I hope GMRULES again]

General Motors responds to class action lawsuits on intake manifold gaskets

Oshawa, Ontario - General Motors of Canada has responded to a report that a Toronto law firm is suing GM in Canada and the U.S. over allegedly defective intake manifold gaskets. The action claims that gaskets in various Buick, Chevrolet, Oldsmobile and Pontiac engines from 1995 to 2003 degrade prematurely and allow coolant to leak into the engine; the suit may cover 400,000 cars in Canada.

In its statement, General Motors said that all vehicles are covered by a minimum warranty of three years or 60,000 km and some may have more standard coverage. "Beyond the warranty period, our dealers and retailers review out-of-warranty concerns on a case-by-case basis. If the customer is not satisfied with the dealer's decision, where is a process detailed in the owner assistance information booklet to help customers resolve concerns they may have. An intake manifold gasket concern can arise from a variety of causes. It is for this reason that any concern a customer may have beyond the warranty period is handled on a case-by-case basis," the statement reads.

GM encourages customers to contact its Customer Communications Centre at 1-800-263-3777 (English) or 1-800-263-7854 (French) if they have questions regarding their vehicles.

"The recent motion to certify a class action is unfortunate and we believe brought on by a spillover of an overly litigious U.S. legal system into Canada," says Stew Low, Director of Communications, GM of Canada. "Lawyers have grossly exaggerated the situation with our customers through unsubstantiated allegations in statements which have not been proven in court and will be vigorously defended."

[I hope GMRULES again]

Just got back from buying a 97 Grand Am with the 3100 engine and guess what GM, the lady I bought it from had to have the intake manifold gasket changed a few months ago and her mechanic told her all these cars have engine trouble so she decided to sell it and buy a HONDA. She bought it new and liked the car a lot but after this scare and all the bad PR around the General these days she decided to jump ship.

[dx398]

HEY, anyone know why the 1999 OLDS Intrigue 3.8 is not on the bad list??

[ellives]

Another lemming.

Just got back from buying a 97 Grand Am with the 3100 engine and guess what GM, the lady I bought it from had to have the intake manifold gasket changed a few months ago and her mechanic told her all these cars have engine trouble so she decided to sell it and buy a HONDA. She bought it new and liked the car a lot but after this scare and all the bad PR around the General these days she decided to jump ship.

[Polish_Kris]

Again, "tons of leaking gaskets" is meaningless, unless compared against the backdrop of how many engines were produced.  10,000 gaskets against 10 million engines is nothing.  Of course, it would suck to be the person it happens to, but if your engine is losing coolant and you do nothing about it it is YOUR fault, not GM's.

Oh yes, but if this happened to Toyota cars, you would start bashing of how Toyota is arrogant...

[ellives]

"Facts," properly analyzed, are the only way to make reasonable arguments. Anything else is pointless drivel (TV commercials.)

Let's quit acting like children with the tit-for-tat bull$h!.

Oh yes, but if this happened to Toyota cars, you would start bashing of how Toyota is arrogant...

[CARBIZ]

Polish, you totally miss the point of my threads: Toyota builds good cars. GM builds good cars. NOBODY builds crap any more. (Some vehicles may be FUGLY, but they aren't necessarily crap.) Toyota is fallible;GM is fallible.

What isn't obvious to the blind, mass public is that the domestics manufacturers never seem to catch a break from the media.

This is supposedly a GM fansite. Of course we will chime in when GM screws up, and forgive us for gloating when Toyota's failings, BUT THE MEDIA CERTAINLY WON'T DO IT.

The Toronto f'ing Star put GM's lawsuit on the front page, above their name so every paper box in the f'ing city can display it. The Post and others buried it in the business section where it belongs. A lawyer on a fishing expedition is not news until PROVEN. Toyota's 825,000 SUV recall for suspension problems gets buried by the media; their lying about horsepower doesn't even get mentioned.

All those kids whose parents owned Pontiac 6000s and Buicks in the '80s are now writers for these rags and remember how $h!ty their parents Buick or Chrysler was. So they drive a Lexus today and compare it (in their mind) to their father's '85 Celebrity. Domestics can trashed at every turn - in most cases it isn't deserved. So forgive me for jumping on Toyota when they slip up.

Seriously. People are influenced by what their parents drove when they were (are) a kid. If they had bad experiences with GM or Ford, that will effect them all of their life. Unless they actually learn to think for theirselves. Most people don't. Biases picked up when you are a kid are hard to shake - they usually follow you all your life.

[Mr.Krinkle]

  Seriously.  People are influenced by what their parents drove when they were (are) a kid.  If they had bad experiences with GM or Ford, that will effect them all of their life.  Unless they actually learn to think for theirselves.  Most people don't.  Biases picked up when you are a kid are hard to shake - they usually follow you all your life.

thats an excellent point.

[ellives]

Absolutely an excellent commentary, which echo my sentiments exactly.

Polish, you totally miss the point of my threads: Toyota builds good cars.  GM builds good cars.  NOBODY builds crap any more.  (Some vehicles may be FUGLY, but they aren't necessarily crap.)  Toyota is fallible;GM is fallible.

  What isn't obvious to the blind, mass public is that the domestics manufacturers never seem to catch a break from the media. 

  This is supposedly a GM fansite.  Of course we will chime in when GM screws up, and forgive us for gloating when Toyota's failings, BUT THE MEDIA CERTAINLY WON'T DO IT.

  The Toronto f'ing Star put GM's lawsuit on the front page, above their name so every paper box in the f'ing city can display it.  The Post and others buried it in the business section where it belongs.  A lawyer on a fishing expedition is not news until PROVEN.  Toyota's 825,000 SUV recall for suspension problems gets buried by the media; their lying about horsepower doesn't even get mentioned.

  All those kids whose parents owned Pontiac 6000s and Buicks in the '80s are now writers for these rags and remember how $h!ty their parents Buick or Chrysler was.  So they drive a Lexus today and compare it (in their mind) to their father's '85 Celebrity.  Domestics can trashed at every turn - in most cases it isn't deserved.  So forgive me for jumping on Toyota when they slip up.

  Seriously.  People are influenced by what their parents drove when they were (are) a kid.  If they had bad experiences with GM or Ford, that will effect them all of their life.  Unless they actually learn to think for theirselves.  Most people don't.  Biases picked up when you are a kid are hard to shake - they usually follow you all your life.