Cadillac News: Rumorpile: General Motors Cans Cadillac Ultraluxury Sedan

[riviera74]

I think the real question is "What can Cadillac do that MB/BMW/Audi cannot or will not do"? While the ULS may well be dead, I would like to see Caddy do something the Germans (and Lexus/Jaguar) cannot possibly do or execute. The cars they have are very good in most respects, but much of this was needed two or three years ago.

Cadillac needs a unique selling point and it needs one right now in order to consistently compete and win.

[hyperv6]

Cadillac is like Saturday Night Live.

It is a collection of cast that has yet to prove itself globally. In time we will get the members or models that will translate to prime time and prove their worth and value. To make a move right now for some top end deal will fail even if it is a great car as there is no great demand for a ultra expensive Cadillac and as of now a failure on the top level will set back any second chance 10 year or more.

The whole things is Cadillac is not the darling of the automotive market as it once was. It can be again but it needs to earn that right and do so with the products they have now. Look at Acura and the NSX. Yes they built a very good car but it is and will never be a Ferrari. Cadillac needs to be the best they can be and make Cadillac the car to have not make a Cadillac model that is like the others at this level. They need earn their reputation, respect and trust at $50-100K to earn a right to sell at a higher price.

The profits are on the lower priced cars anyways so it is not a must have to go ultra. I would love to see them do some smaller volume cheaper special short term models to perk the line up. This could better show case their abilities and value.

Edited July 5, 2013 by hyperv6

[hyperv6]

I see a new Audi Quattro coupe coming [Autoweek story]. That would make an interesting car for Cadillac to compete with. Something fun, sporty and out of the norm for Cadillac that would appeal even more to the younger buyers.

If not there at least at Buick.

[smk4565]

I think the real question is "What can Cadillac do that MB/BMW/Audi cannot or will not do"? While the ULS may well be dead, I would like to see Caddy do something the Germans (and Lexus/Jaguar) cannot possibly do or execute. The cars they have are very good in most respects, but much of this was needed two or three years ago.

Cadillac needs a unique selling point and it needs one right now in order to consistently compete and win.

There isn't really anything they can do that the others can't, or haven't already done. The German brands have a global sales network and economies of scale. Audi has gotten back in the game since they have VW's size and money, combined with Bentley and Lamboghini under the umbrella so they can put a Lambo V10 in an R8 or Audi sedan and make cars that stand out.

Cadillac just has to make a full size luxury car, put all they have into it and see what happens.

[hyperv6]

Yes but it is not the money that comes from the V10 that makes the profits it is the A4 and A6 that pays the bills.

The one thing we also need to think about and none of us have brought up is all the money they would have dumped into this one low volume car. Just think about all the other projects and other models that it could help bring to market with the freed up money and man power.

Edited July 6, 2013 by hyperv6

[balthazar]

The German brands have a global sales network and economies of scale.

Right, except... mercedees sells a million plus (mostly to low-margin fleets), contaminates their portfolio with garbage trucks & cargo vans, is supposedly massively profitable, is on an intergalactic quest for The Most Sales Possible..... yet even they could not make a case for a tarted-up s-class sedan -their ultimate & SO important flagship- that started stickering at $380,000 !!! So much for 'economies of scale'! lol

[Drew Dowdell]

I'm curious how this S-Class Pullman will be significantly different than the Maybach aside from the name (and price?)

[Robert Hall]

I'm curious how this S-Class Pullman will be significantly different than the Maybach aside from the name (and price?)

Well, it will be over a decade newer in terms of hardware, technology and gadgetry...

[smk4565]

The German brands have a global sales network and economies of scale.

Right, except... mercedees sells a million plus (mostly to low-margin fleets), contaminates their portfolio with garbage trucks & cargo vans, is supposedly massively profitable, is on an intergalactic quest for The Most Sales Possible..... yet even they could not make a case for a tarted-up s-class sedan -their ultimate & SO important flagship- that started stickering at $380,000 !!! So much for 'economies of scale'! lol

Mercedes worldwide makes over 4,000 Euros per car profit, that is over $5,000 per car. Most car companies are lucky to crack $1,000 per car. What they do works, and Daimler is largest truck producer in the world, so Mercedes is going to have trucks. It is what it is, and their revenues keep going up so they'll keep doing what they do.

The Pullman will be good, maybe they even put plug-in hybrid technology into it, because a plug-in hybrid S-class is coming for sure.

[balthazar]

IF mercedes makes that much on the mainstream vehicles, the profit on the Maybach must've been at least 100,000/car. I mean- that certainly wasn't a 300,000 interior!! and the rest was an s-class.

Don't try and tell me they cancelled a profit-making halo flagship car..... how the hell did they F that brand up so badly?

Daimler has the same trucks badged as 'mercedes' and 'frieghtliner'. Gee, why does that sound familiar?

Plug-in hybrid tech is not remotely new, that had better not be the trump card for the Pullman trim option....

[G. David Felt]

MB has not been in the top 10 for quality and reliability since before 2000 just like BMW has not. Both companies have huge cost structures due to the unions and are living on their name. I wondered about the profit that SMK posted so did a little binging and came up with these stories:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-05-04/bmw-quarterly-profit-advances-on-demand-for-5-series-x3-models.html

BMW made a profit of 4,462 euros per car on average, compared with 4,145 euros at Daimler AG’s Mercedes-Benz and 2,981 euros at Volkswagen AG (VOW)’s Audi.

We need to get caddy to have the profit margin being reported by Porsche.

http://www.autospies.com/news/Porsche-posts-28-247-average-profit-per-car-38433/

Porsche posts $28,247 average profit per car

That is some freakin profit.

[ZL-1]

MB has not been in the top 10 for quality and reliability since before 2000 just like BMW has not. Both companies have huge cost structures due to the unions and are living on their name. I wondered about the profit that SMK posted so did a little binging and came up with these stories:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-05-04/bmw-quarterly-profit-advances-on-demand-for-5-series-x3-models.html

BMW made a profit of 4,462 euros per car on average, compared with 4,145 euros at Daimler AG’s Mercedes-Benz and 2,981 euros at Volkswagen AG (VOW)’s Audi.

We need to get caddy to have the profit margin being reported by Porsche.

http://www.autospies.com/news/Porsche-posts-28-247-average-profit-per-car-38433/

Porsche posts $28,247 average profit per car

That is some freakin profit.

Impressive porsche numbers indeed, and not only because of pricing (i.e. brand image), but also because a lot of development costs for the Cayenne (and the Panamera as well IIRC) can be shared with other VW Group brands...

GM does not have that luxury today, as the spaces occupied by Buick and Cadillac will take a while to organize. GM is on a good track, but not quite there yet... Which begs the question if GM wouldn't be better off by getting to those economies of scale from using Alpha to a bigger extent (i.e. underpinning a NG SRX and a smaller Cadillac crossovoer, in addition to at least a ATS convertible)... But I have a sneaking suspicion that's another part of the current GM story that time will reveal as either the best or the not-so-best option...

[hyperv6]

Anyone other than 98 notice that Dan said the LTS will be here in two years.

USA Today has the info on this.

[vonVeezelsnider]

Anyone other than 98 notice that Dan said the LTS will be here in two years.

USA Today has the info on this.

I found that interesting, but a couple people in that big GMI thread on the cancellation of the UltraLux Cadillac who claimed to be in "the know" stated that mules have been out and about for a little while already.

[Drew Dowdell]

Anyone other than 98 notice that Dan said the LTS will be here in two years.

USA Today has the info on this.

That was the plan anyway. 2015 was the year I recall for it.

[regfootball]

well hopefully they decided to build a large cadillac and not just an expensive one. S class size, not 100k, start at 60k.

[balthazar]

S-550 manages to look rather dumpy for having the 'design real estate' to work with- disappointing.
Ciel is 1000 times more sleek & looks larger with some decent rear overhang, but they are nearly identical :: C: 125/204 vs. M: 124/206.

205" is mid-size in my book... but if Cadillac can give the car Ciel-like proportions (it's 4" wider than the s-clss), that'd be pretty great.

[vonVeezelsnider]

I doubt it will be cheaper than an Equus, but might split the difference between it and the Lexus LS460. For a first-gen car they can't charge S-Class prices right away. I would expect a starting price somewhere between 65k-70k.

[balthazar]

S-class actual paid base price is elusive. Oh, I realize they publish an MSRP of $95,905 (S550), but trucar lists the average transaction price as 87,522 for that model. PROBLEM IS, there is no reporting for options.

s-class major options ~

sport pkg +1 6,650

sport pkg 5,900

Drvr assist 2,950

RR seat pkg 3,040

RR entertnmt 2,450

Active body cntl 4,090

Bang & Olufson 6,400

20" dubs 2,020

...and a bunch more.

Assumedly, most of these 4800lb road whales have a number of these options.

Googling S550 window stickers show option loads between 15,000 and 30,000... removing them to extract a true 'base price' of the average transaction price (going with a mean of $22.5K in options) means the s-class --as far as what people are willing to pay-- starts around ...65K. I thought as much.

So, $65-70K base for the Omega is smack dab in s-class territory (assuming they don't discount it as heavily as mercedes does)... and I for one think that's exactly where Cadillac should go.

[riviera74]

I agree. $65K should be where Caddy should go for the large sedan. No reason for Caddy to price cars like Hyundai. Hyundai will always be what Honda and Toyota used to be about 25-30 years ago.

[G. David Felt]

S-class actual paid base price is elusive. Oh, I realize they publish an MSRP of $95,905 (S550), but trucar lists the average transaction price as 87,522 for that model. PROBLEM IS, there is no reporting for options.

s-class major options ~

sport pkg +1 6,650

sport pkg 5,900

Drvr assist 2,950

RR seat pkg 3,040

RR entertnmt 2,450

Active body cntl 4,090

Bang & Olufson 6,400

20" dubs 2,020

...and a bunch more.

Assumedly, most of these 4800lb road whales have a number of these options.

Googling S550 window stickers show option loads between 15,000 and 30,000... removing them to extract a true 'base price' of the average transaction price (going with a mean of $22.5K in options) means the s-class --as far as what people are willing to pay-- starts around ...65K. I thought as much.

So, $65-70K base for the Omega is smack dab in s-class territory (assuming they don't discount it as heavily as mercedes does)... and I for one think that's exactly where Cadillac should go.

Great Break down of Info Balthazar. I agree with you that Caddy needs a traditional Full Size Luxury Sedan in this price category with an Ala Cart listing of options. This should be a car that you can build how you want, not a pre package option of 2 or 3 choices kinda car.

[smk4565]

I am curious if Cadillac's car will be better than the Equus, who has been at it for a few years now, and has a 429 hp DOHC V8. Cadillac has a twin-turbo V6, but V6 is not V8, and many in this class will just want a V8. The other question is will it be better than a Lexus LS, which has had about 25 years on the market to build a following.

I think $65-70k is low, no other car in this class except for the Equus is in the $65k range. The S-class may have been discounting some, but it still has a higher transaction price than any other car in the class, and that last year it was in it's 7th model year, competing against an A8, 7-series and XJ that were all redesigned for 2012. Few cars in year number 7 still dominate the class, the CTS was redesigned more recently than the W221 S-class, and look how dated it looks now, how sales have tanked even with discounts.

The new S-class also just moved the goal post, it can drive itself, and the A8, 7-series, LS460 and XJ can't.

[balthazar]

^ Aside from a few technophiles, no one wants a car that 'drives itself'.

The s-class DOES look very dated- the last reskin looked dated immediately. Mercedes has no forward sense of design direction.

[riviera74]

The S-Class can drive itself?!

As for the Cadillac, I only suggested $65K as a starting MSRP because they can simply follow what Lexus did with the LS series from 1990 to now: Start lowish and then raise the price with each successive generation. Cadillac does NOT have an $80K+ flagship and they have not quite earned that kind of brand equity yet to earn an $80K+ transaction price. As Caddy moves upmarket, so will the flagship price. Simple as that.

[balthazar]

Cadillac has already stickered cars close to $90K. Just looked at an Escalade Platinum sticker via Google at $88K- so somehow the 'brand equity' must be there.

IMO, this is a specific vehicle obstacle, not a brand obstacle. I can't pick a base MSRP for a car I have no specs on, but I will say this; IF Cadillac were to put the Ciel into production as shown, they should sticker it at $120K

[smk4565]

The S-Class can drive itself?!

It can steer itself and navigate traffic on it's own up to 31 mph, but if you take your hands off the wheel for 10 seconds it will disengage the system. Plus it has the radar cruise control, and lane keep assist for the higher speeds. But it will drive it self and I read a test that said with the magic body control turned on, they hit a speed bump at 30 mph and didn't feel it. The others in the segment can't do either of those things.

Plus you won't be able to buy a 7-series or A8 convertible, but there will be an S-class convertible. Perhaps Cadillac can jump into that segment with the Ciel.

[Drew Dowdell]

The 7-series convertible is badged 6-series.

[G. David Felt]

I am curious if Cadillac's car will be better than the Equus, who has been at it for a few years now, and has a 429 hp DOHC V8. Cadillac has a twin-turbo V6, but V6 is not V8, and many in this class will just want a V8. The other question is will it be better than a Lexus LS, which has had about 25 years on the market to build a following.

I think $65-70k is low, no other car in this class except for the Equus is in the $65k range. The S-class may have been discounting some, but it still has a higher transaction price than any other car in the class, and that last year it was in it's 7th model year, competing against an A8, 7-series and XJ that were all redesigned for 2012. Few cars in year number 7 still dominate the class, the CTS was redesigned more recently than the W221 S-class, and look how dated it looks now, how sales have tanked even with discounts.

The new S-class also just moved the goal post, it can drive itself, and the A8, 7-series, LS460 and XJ can't.

Anything is better than the Garbage Lexus puts out especially the LS. My aunt has owned two LS's and they both were always falling apart. Trim, fit and finish I just shook my head at. Asked her why she keeps buying this garbage and she says it is better than anything America builds and all her friends own them. Perfect example of lemmings following lemmings.

Yet she did say she was frustrated at going back to the dealership every 2-3 months to have something fixed. She finally decided earlier this year to look around and traded it in on a loaded Ford Fusion and loves it and 5 months into the ownership has had zero problems causing her to go back to the dealership. I asked her how she liked the style over the Lexus and she said it reminds her of James Bond recent car and loves it. So strike one for Ford gaining a 76 year old Lexus owner now a Ford owner.