Impala - 40 thou????????

[regfootball]

I did check out the Impala quite thoroughly at the Auto Show. Nice car, inside and out. Practical, attractive.

Saw my first one on the lot this evening, yes, it was loaded. I think it was a 2LZ or 3LZ...

THIRTY NINE THOUSAND FIVE HUNDRED DOLLARS!!!!!!!!!

wth. how is GM gonna get 40g for an IMPALA??????

The 2012 with 20k on the lot is 15 thousand......

So this is just asking opinions on whether you think Impala can make a huge leap in actual sale prices. I'm not sure they can go that big.

Taurus' are selling for 6-7k off sticker right now.......

[ocnblu]

Admittedly, the value of a RWD chassis would have made the price easier to swallow. But this new Impala is a damn nice car.

[ehaase]

Some people pay $40,000 for a Taurus Limited, so I am sure Chevrolet can sell a few Impala LTZ's for about the same price. My problem is with the base Impala with the 4 cylinder being priced the same as a Taurus SE with a V6.

[bobo]

I don't see what the appeal of the new Impala is. There are also a lot of really nice cars at that price point.

[Robert Hall]

I don't see what the appeal of the new Impala is. There are also a lot of really nice cars at that price point.

Size and V6 availability...it's not as cramped as the weak 4cyl only Malibu. Sounds like it's priced comparable to the LaCrosse, Avalon, Maxima, Azera, Credenza, and Taurus which make up the full size FWD segment. I'd still rather have a Charger or 300, though

[hyperv6]

I can see many here have not really seen what many cars cost anymore. The old Impala discounting has distorted reality.

The new Impala is a $30K - 41K car. It has been moved up to face the Taurus head on price wise. It is not longer considered the high volume car it once was as the Malibu is now that car but there in lies the problem.

First off the new car is only related to the old in name only as it is much more of a car than the last one. It is not going to be a fleet car and nor will it be a sports sedan. The Impala has one job to do and that is to be a near luxury sedan and do everything well for the target market it is. This folks is the new Le sabre for younger people.

GM has pretty much outline the task at hand for this car and made it clear from the first that it was not the discounted bargain car it once was.

I suspect the overlap with the Lacrosse will soon disappear once it is replaced as the Buick is moving up. We have to remember that all the parts of GM are not yet in place or announced so once they do get these things to market we will see that Buick will grow to fill the lower slot Cadillac once did and carve out its own place. This will let the larger Chevy move into a higher slot to give the Malibu and Cruse more room to move.

Look for the Malibu fixes to make it more of a smaller Impala and it will better fill the slot of the old Impala. The new Fusion has already taken the place of the old Taurus.

Today the average price of a car is nearing $35K so that means the mid size car is filling this slot.

There is a slot for a FWD car in this price range as ever company either has one or is just now filling this slot. Believe it or not in the real world the average buyer wants FWD. Ford, Chevy. Toyota and now Hyundai has just come out with a car in this segment. They are proving popular with those who want a luxury car but are willing to forgo some perks for a lower price. A similar priced Cadillac will be $10-15K more and the Buick will be moving up soon.

Chevy said most of these will be LT models and in the mid $30K range and represent a good value for the buyer.

The only real mistake I see is the 4 cylinder non Turbo. I just do not see anyone in this class being too happy with that.

The key for this to work is #1 get the Malibu fixed. #2 get the Lacrosse replace in 2-3 years with a upgraded model.

[Robert Hall]

The only real mistake I see is the 4 cylinder non Turbo.

That's for fleets, I would think. Still going to be some fleeted, I would think.

[smk4565]

Cars are expensive. But $40k for an Impala is a lot. I don't really think the Maxima, Taurus, Avalon or Impala are worth that, but if you load them up that is what they cost. The Azera I think has the best value in that segment, and it is roomy on the inside without being huge on the outside.

To me the Genesis/Charger/300 are the way to go here because of the RWD. At least you get the RWD benefits at the $35-40k price point.

[hyperv6]

Cars are expensive. But $40k for an Impala is a lot. I don't really think the Maxima, Taurus, Avalon or Impala are worth that, but if you load them up that is what they cost. The Azera I think has the best value in that segment, and it is roomy on the inside without being huge on the outside.

To me the Genesis/Charger/300 are the way to go here because of the RWD. At least you get the RWD benefits at the $35-40k price point.

None of them are worth that. Dinner for 3 at Arbys is not worth $19.00 but welcome the change everyone wanted. The best things in life are not free and if you want government health care, higher min wage and a party paying back union support you are going to pay for it no matter how much they raise taxes on the evil rich. LOL!

The fact is that today with wages, taxes, benefits, increased government regulation and energy cost the price of everything is going up and will continue do so. The impala in 10 years will be smaller and closer to $50K. So get used to it as there is no turning back now.

And the FED RWD debate is subjective in the non enthusiast area as there is a lot more of them and they want FWD. But I will not be surprised if a non SS RWD may be offered once they change platforms if they can move production to this company and share a line with the Caddies and the Camaro.

What is in play here is more than what we know and GM knows a hell of a lot more on the next move or two we have not even been hinted on.

As for the fleet look for very few to be fleeted in the Impala. Who would want them when most companies are looking to cut cost. Most companies and cities are going to small FWD cars with smaller 4 cylinders to save fuel cost. and purchase cost. Cities are broke and most will not buy the larger stuff out side state police and some local departments. I am not sure we will even see a police package on the Impala.

Something else to consider is this Impala may not be around really long. This is a old platform and the Impala has gotten to use all that is refined on it. But in a few years who knows a NA built Alpha based Impala could be added to the SS line and that would give room for the next Malibu to have a large niche between the Impala and Cruze. Lets face it GM has to do some changes here as the 3 segments are almost on top of each other.

There is a lot in play here and we have a lot to learn and see yet. I would recommend lets watch GM play this out more and we will have a better understanding.

[regfootball]

Admittedly, the value of a RWD chassis would have made the price easier to swallow. But this new Impala is a damn nice car.

agree on the damn nice car part.

but not 40k nice.

I don't see what the appeal of the new Impala is. There are also a lot of really nice cars at that price point.

and this is why

interior is not quite 40k nice. and there are caddys and buicks above it.

To use the Taurus again as a reference. My old dealer group is currently selling Taurus at several thou off sticker. This is the price where these cars will sell. Impala will need the discounts like this to move, maybe not right away. GM is still inflating their stickers. Most 12-13 Impalas sold in the low twenties retail. The new Impala will not command a 15k real price jump. Maybe 8-10k. But that is still not 40k.

AWD Taurus Limited 33k +/-

http://www.appleautos.com/2013-Ford-Taurus-Limited-Apple-Valley-MN/vd/13910692

GM's sedan strategy is unique. They plan to sell an equal number of Impalas and Malibus. Toyota sells many times more Camrys than Avalons, Nissans Altima is many more than Maxima. Ford even blows out several more Fusions than Taurus. This more even split for GM means lower prices will be needed. Plus the LaCrosse and Regal are somewhat in competition too.

Edited May 11, 2013 by regfootball

[regfootball]

The only real mistake I see is the 4 cylinder non Turbo.

That's for fleets, I would think. Still going to be some fleeted, I would think.

I see the 4 cyl as a huge draw for the Impala . Many buyers come in now thinking 6 cylinders drink gas. The Impala is larger inside than the BU and it won't be much heavier. It will have plenty of power.

Impala is not a luxury or near lux car either. Chevy is still the high value division. There is a limit to how much Chevy can emphasize lux over value before the shopper bolts to a higher brand.

Impala's interior plastic needs an upgrade if they want to be considered near lux.

Edited May 11, 2013 by regfootball

[regfootball]

hyperv6, on 11 May 2013 - 16:22, said:

smk4565, on 11 May 2013 - 15:23, said:

Cars are expensive. But $40k for an Impala is a lot. I don't really think the Maxima, Taurus, Avalon or Impala are worth that, but if you load them up that is what they cost. The Azera I think has the best value in that segment, and it is roomy on the inside without being huge on the outside.

To me the Genesis/Charger/300 are the way to go here because of the RWD. At least you get the RWD benefits at the $35-40k price point.

None of them are worth that. Dinner for 3 at Arbys is not worth $19.00 but welcome the change everyone wanted. The best things in life are not free and if you want government health care, higher min wage and a party paying back union support you are going to pay for it no matter how much they raise taxes on the evil rich. LOL!

The fact is that today with wages, taxes, benefits, increased government regulation and energy cost the price of everything is going up and will continue do so. The impala in 10 years will be smaller and closer to $50K. So get used to it as there is no turning back now.

And the FED RWD debate is subjective in the non enthusiast area as there is a lot more of them and they want FWD. But I will not be surprised if a non SS RWD may be offered once they change platforms if they can move production to this company and share a line with the Caddies and the Camaro.

What is in play here is more than what we know and GM knows a hell of a lot more on the next move or two we have not even been hinted on.

As for the fleet look for very few to be fleeted in the Impala. Who would want them when most companies are looking to cut cost. Most companies and cities are going to small FWD cars with smaller 4 cylinders to save fuel cost. and purchase cost. Cities are broke and most will not buy the larger stuff out side state police and some local departments. I am not sure we will even see a police package on the Impala.

Something else to consider is this Impala may not be around really long. This is a old platform and the Impala has gotten to use all that is refined on it. But in a few years who knows a NA built Alpha based Impala could be added to the SS line and that would give room for the next Malibu to have a large niche between the Impala and Cruze. Lets face it GM has to do some changes here as the 3 segments are almost on top of each other.

There is a lot in play here and we have a lot to learn and see yet. I would recommend lets watch GM play this out more and we will have a better understanding.

your first paragraph is spot on, until we change the direction of leadership back the other way for awhile.....

even though new car average price is higher, let's determine how much of that is driven by higher prices of crossovers and luxury car sales. bread and butter car transaction prices are not on average going up as fast but to be fair on that a lot of people are buying cruzes and such now instead of the midsizers.

Volume bread and butter cars, the average prices will be going up but competition is so fierce it tends to keep the average increases in check.

I think a fair amount of these will become fleet over time, although for now they need to fleet the Malibu so much more to make up for the lack of sales there. The Impala was older so it needed to be fleeted to keep the plant running. Now that is the Malibu's job. But in 2-3 years there will be plenty of Impala fleet cars.

Actually, I have seen a $h!ton of new Malibus lately. GM is doing a good job moving the car in spite of the flaws. Cheap leases, fleet, whatever it takes. The Malibu is a good car with some flaws but if I had a fleet car i would damn happy with a Malibu. I like the Fusion, but there is a quality about the new Fusion that I don't like and I think the Malibu is a very divergent and attractive constast from that.

Crazy thing is the Impala and Malibu are REALLY close in size, just that the Malibu has a larger airy cabin, more of a touring car. The Malibu is more of a bunker with less space and claustrophic. Malibu's dash is a cockpit and the Impala's is more horizontal and spread out. If Chevy can position some of its Malibu as an affordable sports sedan, i think they can hit a portion of the market that is being neglected right now.

New Impala is precisely for those that may have driven Bonnevilles and Auroras before. When i was on the lot checking it out yesterday, a dude with a fairly new pre 13 Malibu and his family stopped dead in their tracks to check one out.

Taurus needs an interior gut and redo to keep up with the Impala though I think. The Taurus interior is a bit overdone and intrusive for a car that is supposed to have size, and they need to reduce the bunker feel in there also. The Impala's big advantage over the Taurus is how airy feeling it is in comparison.

Edited May 11, 2013 by regfootball

[hyperv6]

Sorry but I was not trying to be political but it is what it is on the cause and effect and I do not see it changing now no matter who is in office.

I do agree the Taurus needs to gut the interior as it feels very cramped for a larger car. The console is way to large.

The impala it light years larger inside than the Malibu. My SSEI did not have the leg room front or rear that this car has. Now to be fair it may be a little narrower but they make good use and packaging of the space given.

The Malibu is a good car in a sector of really great cars. It was just late to market and it shows. GM could release it as it was and make due or stayed with a old car and suffered even more losses. The update we will see I firmly believe was already in the works when the car was released as GM knew they needed It but could not wait two years more to release the car.

As for price get with it people that is the going rate for a average large American sedan not in the luxury group. Sorry but look around. Sure you can get a gutted ATS for a little less but option it up and you are at $51K and just wait to see what the new CTS will set you back.

To make the Impala cheaper would put it right on top of the Malibu and to make it cheaper it would put it on top of the Cruze. The only reason the old one was so cheap is the tooling was paid for on the W body 18 years ago and they could not give them away at the price they should have been.

Times are transitional at GM and prices are going to go up more and more in the next 10 years.

The real danger for the automakers will be the fact that with falling wages and the rising cost of products less and less people will be able to consider a new car. Also with higher taxes on the affluent it will make them scale back too. I have already seen it. The issue there is nearly 70% of the auto profits come from the luxury cars and you lose those it will hurt over all. Chevy make money by volume like a grocery store and with trucks. Buick and Cadillac make it on content. Chevy really is going to have the Cruze, Sonic and Malibu hold the line as they will be the main income cars. The improvements to the Malibu will be critical and the next new model will be a must have hit.

GM has done a great job of protecting buyers from fleet sales as resale values are much better on new product. The use of the Captiva and old Impala have been key. I see GM doing this into the future and limit the fleet sales much more than many of you expect. The only thing to change that is dire times if the economy tanks again.

Having been in the Impala and seen what it can do it is a Damn fine car. It is not a sports sedan, it is not a fleet service car and it is not a high volume car as the other Chevys. It fills a niche that the Taurus now fills l less the SHO model.

Lets put it this way at the Auto Show this year it was the only Chevy I had to wait In line to sit in. even with a ZR1, ZL1 and 2014 Pick up sitting on the floor. There was a line and the comment were all positive and that is not something I have heard about the Impala for a long time from many in the general public.

I do have one neg on the Impala the steering wheel is lame but out side that it is going to sell well. Last month it was the second fastest selling Chevy car and it had just hit the market.

As for the RWD vs FWD with the general public I see no issue with this car as most in the public if given the choice would pick FWD like it or not. Now if they tried to pass this car off as a SS sports sedan then I would say that would be an issue for the limited number they would sell but John and Jane Q public buy FWD in the millions every year and that is not going to be an issue. Price too is not a great issue out side the new Hyundai they just came out with as it is cheap with many standard options. But then you get what you pay for and many never go back to Hyundai too.

[Drew Dowdell]

Some people pay $40,000 for a Taurus Limited, so I am sure Chevrolet can sell a few Impala LTZ's for about the same price. My problem is with the base Impala with the 4 cylinder being priced the same as a Taurus SE with a V6.

Taurus is going 4-banger post haste..

Watch the political stuff...

[regfootball]

Impala has Epsilon disease, too narrow, but you notice how they kept the door panels thin and carved out to get as much width as they could inside in the new Impala.

You mentioned the Captiva, more and more i think it is a stroke of genius. Buick said they did not want the Vue, so they turn it into fleet only and move 5k of them a month and resell them a year later as CPO. I was just in my hometown lot checking and they had 6 captivas, almost all with v6 and leather and like 10k or so miles on them and these things are selling close to 20k. For those who are not crazy about the Equinox, the Captiva is a great alternative. Likewise if you don't want a new overpriced Impala you can get the slum Impala. no way they would have sold 60k buick vues. and saturn fans have a gm they can still buy.

With those CPO Captivas if I had been selling Chevy I would have pushed the used. They would have been great switch cars for Equinoxes or move ups from Cruzes and Malibus. Then you'd get paid for a used unit instead of the lesser you would get selling chevy new.

Edited May 12, 2013 by regfootball

[ehaase]

I am sure that the 2.0L Ecoboost will be the primary engine in the CD4 Taurus that will debut in a few years. With the popularity of crossovers, increasing roominess of mid size and compact cars, CAFE, and declining middle class incomes, I do question the future of the Taurus/Impala/Avalon class of cars after this generation, just as the Mondeo/Insignia class of cars is declining in Europe.

[regfootball]

ford has a 2.3 ecoboost in the pipeline also. the 2.0 turbo was nice in the edge i drove. to be honest, the 2.0t would be nice in the Impala also.

[hyperv6]

Impala has Epsilon disease, too narrow, but you notice how they kept the door panels thin and carved out to get as much width as they could inside in the new Impala.

You mentioned the Captiva, more and more i think it is a stroke of genius. Buick said they did not want the Vue, so they turn it into fleet only and move 5k of them a month and resell them a year later as CPO. I was just in my hometown lot checking and they had 6 captivas, almost all with v6 and leather and like 10k or so miles on them and these things are selling close to 20k. For those who are not crazy about the Equinox, the Captiva is a great alternative. Likewise if you don't want a new overpriced Impala you can get the slum Impala. no way they would have sold 60k buick vues. and saturn fans have a gm they can still buy.

With those CPO Captivas if I had been selling Chevy I would have pushed the used. They would have been great switch cars for Equinoxes or move ups from Cruzes and Malibus. Then you'd get paid for a used unit instead of the lesser you would get selling chevy new.

There has been demand for used Captiva's here and they are selling as fast as they come available.

I look for out going models to be used more and more for fleet use and discounting. It not only is income for GM from a dead horse but it also protects the buyers of the new product. GM has made a point of this on most new models.

The 2.0T is the only 4 that should have been used in the Impala but it is not to be at this point.

While the Impala is narrow it will still seat 3 across fine if anyone with a sedan still does that.

[balthazar]

^ With all the emphasis on 7-pass SUVs (assuming there's any legitimacy to that), I would hazard to guess that the same situations occasionally are encountered by sedan owners.

Curious that as mankind has gotten so much wider, cars have gotten so much narrower.

[hyperv6]

Government regulations have a way of doing that.

That may be why they are now wanting to tell us what to eat and how much. They want to make sure we fit in the little cars they have forced on us LOL!

[regfootball]

the center is uncomfortable.....

[Drew Dowdell]

Government regulations have a way of doing that.

That may be why they are now wanting to tell us what to eat and how much. They want to make sure we fit in the little cars they have forced on us LOL!

Last I looked, the Expedition XL and Suburban were still in production. Don't blame the government for GM's miss-handling of platforms...

[ponchoman49]

Just looked over a base LS light blue 2014 Impala for a good 20 min. I must say that it is a nice car but Chevy has once again aimed really low with this trim level. Plastic wheels. No visible exhaust out back. Black exterior rear view mirrors, no leather steering wheel, no rear air vents, 4 cylinder only. It's as if this trim level was aimed directly at fleets, which is what I thought GM was avoiding. To get these items one must move up to the 30k LT trim where most every other competitors have a std V6.

The mileage is also a let down. 21/31 for the enhanced new 2.5. 18/28 for the V6 and 25/35 for the eAssist. Notice these figures are lower than the heavier LaCrosse for the eAssist setup, with the V6 coming in one less on both counts compared to most online sources and a whopping 3 less than the Malibu with the 2.5 despite only a 150 LB gain in weight. I'm very curious why the lower than expected numbers for this car.

[hyperv6]

Government regulations have a way of doing that.

That may be why they are now wanting to tell us what to eat and how much. They want to make sure we fit in the little cars they have forced on us LOL!

Last I looked, the Expedition XL and Suburban were still in production. Don't blame the government for GM's miss-handling of platforms...

Yes like they sell a ton of those like they used too.

You know as well as I do that we are in transition of old GM and new GM and the new GM has done pretty well with what they were given to work with till they can fix it all.

Now visit me back on this in 2025 and just see how big you cars and half ton trucks are. You are one of those around here that it smart enough to know where this is all going.

[Drew Dowdell]

Is that the government speaking or the market speaking? Lots of people don't even want large cars anymore no matter how efficient they are. My friend with the Scion TC thinks the Camry is a "boat". Albert won't go bigger than a CR-V and even refuses to drive a 'Nox. Lots of people moved from Suburbans to Acadias/Traverses simply for drivability reasons... and remember, if you did that 10 years ago you ended up in an Aztek or TrailBlazer... neither of which have the utility that the Lambdas do today.

It's just the market shifting on its own here.

[hyperv6]

Is that the government speaking or the market speaking? Lots of people don't even want large cars anymore no matter how efficient they are. My friend with the Scion TC thinks the Camry is a "boat". Albert won't go bigger than a CR-V and even refuses to drive a 'Nox. Lots of people moved from Suburbans to Acadias/Traverses simply for drivability reasons... and remember, if you did that 10 years ago you ended up in an Aztek or TrailBlazer... neither of which have the utility that the Lambdas do today.

It's just the market shifting on its own here.

Stop playing dumb. LOL!

You know as much as I that one factor is the price of fuel and the other fact is we would not have these smaller cars if it were not for the looming CAFE average of 52 MPG average.

The one other factor also is the price as few people can afford full size anything anymore. The many people have down sized as their incomes are not what they used to be and increases in taxes are also taking a chunk. The fact is people have less to spend today and will have less to spend in the near future. Hell not all that long ago a well equipped Suburban could be had for $35K now you would be lucky to find a Nox stickered for that price.

Now answer me this, would we have the Volt, Hybrids and Spark if it were not for the looming CAFE average in 11 years? The fact is some folks think if the present party is voted out that they average will be dropped. It might but not by much as the genie is out of the bottle.

The new genie is that the government wants us to save fuel and conserve but now with the higher MPG cars we have driven more miles as a country than ever.

The market is not shifting on its own. The fact is Ford outside of the Mustang and truck does not offer a V8 anymore and not because people would not buy it. If you want a V8 in a GM car you need to spend well over $30K for it and that price will rise as GM and other will want people to opt for smaller cars and engines.

The fact is the MFG have to find a way to get people to buy small and high MPG if they want to meet the government mandate. The public to day is like a rat in a maze. They may make the choice of what direction to a point but they will all be force to the same place no matter what.

You think GM is limiting the SS with a high price because they just want to sell only 5K cars just because they want it to be rare. No they made it clear a while back that they had to limit the car due to CAFE issues. What better way to limit a car as saying we will build what ever you want but we will have a price much higher than what we could sell it for. Do you think the SS price will be reasonable after what they already showed us how cheap they can sell the base model in OZ or even the G8 just a few years ago?

The root is Gov mandated CAFE and the control is the economic factors of gas prices and car pricing.

Anything in the future that has a V8 or excessively low MPG that affects CAFE will have added cost to help limit sales but still offer the car. You can get it but you will have to pay for it. No one is going to do a gas tax while in office to let people choose the cars they want. This is why Lutz and others want a gas tax to let the consumer choose what they drive.

[regfootball]

Is that the government speaking or the market speaking? Lots of people don't even want large cars anymore no matter how efficient they are. My friend with the Scion TC thinks the Camry is a "boat". Albert won't go bigger than a CR-V and even refuses to drive a 'Nox. Lots of people moved from Suburbans to Acadias/Traverses simply for drivability reasons... and remember, if you did that 10 years ago you ended up in an Aztek or TrailBlazer... neither of which have the utility that the Lambdas do today.

It's just the market shifting on its own here.

Stop playing dumb. LOL!

You know as much as I that one factor is the price of fuel and the other fact is we would not have these smaller cars if it were not for the looming CAFE average of 52 MPG average.

The one other factor also is the price as few people can afford full size anything anymore. The many people have down sized as their incomes are not what they used to be and increases in taxes are also taking a chunk. The fact is people have less to spend today and will have less to spend in the near future. Hell not all that long ago a well equipped Suburban could be had for $35K now you would be lucky to find a Nox stickered for that price.

Now answer me this, would we have the Volt, Hybrids and Spark if it were not for the looming CAFE average in 11 years? The fact is some folks think if the present party is voted out that they average will be dropped. It might but not by much as the genie is out of the bottle.

The new genie is that the government wants us to save fuel and conserve but now with the higher MPG cars we have driven more miles as a country than ever.

The market is not shifting on its own. The fact is Ford outside of the Mustang and truck does not offer a V8 anymore and not because people would not buy it. If you want a V8 in a GM car you need to spend well over $30K for it and that price will rise as GM and other will want people to opt for smaller cars and engines.

The fact is the MFG have to find a way to get people to buy small and high MPG if they want to meet the government mandate. The public to day is like a rat in a maze. They may make the choice of what direction to a point but they will all be force to the same place no matter what.

You think GM is limiting the SS with a high price because they just want to sell only 5K cars just because they want it to be rare. No they made it clear a while back that they had to limit the car due to CAFE issues. What better way to limit a car as saying we will build what ever you want but we will have a price much higher than what we could sell it for. Do you think the SS price will be reasonable after what they already showed us how cheap they can sell the base model in OZ or even the G8 just a few years ago?

The root is Gov mandated CAFE and the control is the economic factors of gas prices and car pricing.

Anything in the future that has a V8 or excessively low MPG that affects CAFE will have added cost to help limit sales but still offer the car. You can get it but you will have to pay for it. No one is going to do a gas tax while in office to let people choose the cars they want. This is why Lutz and others want a gas tax to let the consumer choose what they drive.

first three paragraphs spot on. world pressure is for US to reduce fuel consumption and then there is the whole CO2 thing.

People typically have shown in the past they will buy as large as their wallet allows. Nowadays people buy a Cruze because that is their budget. While I do agree with some about some cars are too large bit (for example I would prefer to drive a Kizashi instead of an Altima for example but the Kizashi at least has enough room for me to sit in back as the same for my kids) most of the shift to smaller cars is due to forces beyond the control of the buyers

declining income and purchasing power

rising fuel prices

rising taxes and other daily expenses

CAFE

globalization of powertrains and the Eurotax etc. on displacement.

I love the idea of a car that gets great Mpg. But there is also first cost, and there is also function, is the car large enough for what i do ....more importantly if i load it up with 4 people and bags for 3-4 days.

I think CAFE needs a repeal. Let the market work by itself. Gas tax is probably one of the more fair ways to encourage or discourage fuel consumption.

Edited May 14, 2013 by regfootball

[Drew Dowdell]

It must be scary living in your worlds where you have to pop your hood each morning to check for a government bureaucrat counting your cylinders.... but they do make medication for that sort of paranoia.

Where you see a vast government conspiracy, I see technological advancement and changing of automotive fashion.

The full size SUV had a good run. It was the bourgeois status symbol from the early 90s through till about 2008. Back in 1996, every Suzie McMansion wanted a Suburban or Bronco/Expedition. When those weren't pimp enough, the Escalade and Navigator were born. You say back then you could get a loaded Suburban for $35k? Well that would also get you fairly well loaded 5-series as well.... both are now in the $60k range... but the 5-series hasn't gone out of style and the Suburban has. The fact remains that someone with 50 large to blow on a vehicle is picking the 5-series instead of the Suburban. That isn't the government's fault! That's how the market works!

Why do we have the Spark? Because GM finally decided to make a sub-compact that doesn't suck. Sub-compacts aren't a new concept.... the Spark is not the first in its class. Sub-compacts pre-date CAFE by at least a few decades going back at least as far as the 1940s with Crosley and the Type-1 Volkswagen. You seem to think that sub-compact sales are taking off because the government is mandating it? No, the Spark is selling well because for the first time in over 60 years, someone built a sub-compact that isn't a total penalty box!

(This next bit is related to an article I've been working on)

This next statement won't go over too well on this website, but many of you have to have some reality splashed in your face. The V8 is no longer relevant to 95% of the car buying public. Trucks and Full Size SUVs not included in that.... yet. Oh, tell me how the government is forcing us out of our V8s and into 4-cylinders again. WRONG. For the general driver, there is an upper point of power output where the buyer will simply not pay extra for extra power regardless of the number of cylinders producing it. Technical advancements have let the 4-cylinder replace the V8 as the standard engine of choice, not because of CAFE or the Government, but because people just don't need the kind of output that a modern V8 produces. 4-cylinder engines are now out-powering V8s of 20-30 years ago and V6es of 5 - 15 years ago.

Some examples:

The best selling car of the early 80s was the Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme. The predominant engine was the Oldsmobile 5.0 liter V8 producing about 140hp. Today, there isn't a 4-cylinder engine from 1.4 liters and up that doesn't produce the same to vastly more horsepower. The new GM 2.5 liter 4-cylinder is exactly 50% of the size of the Olds 307 yet can generate over 60 more horsepower.

In 1993, Cadillac wowed us with their new DOHC, 32 Valve Northstar V8. In top form at release, it had 300 hp and nearly as much torque. It sucked on premium fuel and required 8-quart oil changes. Today, GM can produce that much power from a 2-liter turbo and have better torque delivery as well. 300 Hp? Nearly every run-of-the-mill V6 can do that these days and many can hit 30mpg while doing it.

Oh Ford doesn't do many V8s anymore? They don't need to. The Ecoboost V6 produces more horsepower and more torque than any of their standard issue V8s from the past 30 years. Even before you get to the fuel economy issue, it is simply a cost/benefit analysis.... it is cheaper for Ford to slap a couple turbos onto an existing V6 to meet the desired power output than it is to try and engineer a V8 to fit in the front of the Taurus. It's not some big government conspiracy that created the Eco-boost program... it is simple accounting.

What the V8s can do today is beyond the needs of most drivers... the market has spoken on that. Even the mildest V8 I can think of in a production car today, the 5.7 liter Hemi in the 300c, produces 363 horsepower and 393 lb-ft of torque. I love this engine in the 300c... it is constantly on my radar as a possible purchase in the future... but I have to admit that the 3.6 Pentastar with the 8-speed transmission is more than suitable for my needs and could purchase one with very little regret.

So please... visit your doctor and see if Xanax is right for you....

[hyperv6]

Why did GM panic and down size to generic ugly boxes in the 80's CAFE, Why did they look for a replacement for the V8 in the Corvette till they invested more technology that found more MPG. CAFE.

Why did GM build the X body and then the J cars etc. all with FWD, CAFE.

What is todays greatest concern of each automaker CAFE.

The CAFE mandates have done a lot of harm to MFG's as it has forced them into a box. But it also has forced them to use better and much more expensive technology. We would still be on carburetors and not see a growth in better Turbo chargers etc. It has been a two edges sword with good and bad effects.

The bottom line if you think in your utopian Willy Wonka world that todays cars would not look like they do today without Government mandated CAFE, Emissions and Crash Standards may be I have given you too much credit.

Before you get your panties in a bunch this is not just a party thing but just a government thing as much of this would have come no matter who was in charge. Of late the levels were taken to a palace most MFG just have not figured out how to meet them now.

I wonder how much more the coming mostly aluminum Atlas based Ford F150 will cost. Of course they are going mostly aluminum because of all the red necks down south are demanding that their truck be built from aluminum, Right not a desperate attempt to find more MPG and keep a larger truck? The CAFE has nothing to do with that one! LOL!

To each his own.

[hyperv6]

Is that the government speaking or the market speaking? Lots of people don't even want large cars anymore no matter how efficient they are. My friend with the Scion TC thinks the Camry is a "boat". Albert won't go bigger than a CR-V and even refuses to drive a 'Nox. Lots of people moved from Suburbans to Acadias/Traverses simply for drivability reasons... and remember, if you did that 10 years ago you ended up in an Aztek or TrailBlazer... neither of which have the utility that the Lambdas do today.

It's just the market shifting on its own here.

Stop playing dumb. LOL!

You know as much as I that one factor is the price of fuel and the other fact is we would not have these smaller cars if it were not for the looming CAFE average of 52 MPG average.

The one other factor also is the price as few people can afford full size anything anymore. The many people have down sized as their incomes are not what they used to be and increases in taxes are also taking a chunk. The fact is people have less to spend today and will have less to spend in the near future. Hell not all that long ago a well equipped Suburban could be had for $35K now you would be lucky to find a Nox stickered for that price.

Now answer me this, would we have the Volt, Hybrids and Spark if it were not for the looming CAFE average in 11 years? The fact is some folks think if the present party is voted out that they average will be dropped. It might but not by much as the genie is out of the bottle.

The new genie is that the government wants us to save fuel and conserve but now with the higher MPG cars we have driven more miles as a country than ever.

The market is not shifting on its own. The fact is Ford outside of the Mustang and truck does not offer a V8 anymore and not because people would not buy it. If you want a V8 in a GM car you need to spend well over $30K for it and that price will rise as GM and other will want people to opt for smaller cars and engines.

The fact is the MFG have to find a way to get people to buy small and high MPG if they want to meet the government mandate. The public to day is like a rat in a maze. They may make the choice of what direction to a point but they will all be force to the same place no matter what.

You think GM is limiting the SS with a high price because they just want to sell only 5K cars just because they want it to be rare. No they made it clear a while back that they had to limit the car due to CAFE issues. What better way to limit a car as saying we will build what ever you want but we will have a price much higher than what we could sell it for. Do you think the SS price will be reasonable after what they already showed us how cheap they can sell the base model in OZ or even the G8 just a few years ago?

The root is Gov mandated CAFE and the control is the economic factors of gas prices and car pricing.

Anything in the future that has a V8 or excessively low MPG that affects CAFE will have added cost to help limit sales but still offer the car. You can get it but you will have to pay for it. No one is going to do a gas tax while in office to let people choose the cars they want. This is why Lutz and others want a gas tax to let the consumer choose what they drive.

first three paragraphs spot on. world pressure is for US to reduce fuel consumption and then there is the whole CO2 thing.

People typically have shown in the past they will buy as large as their wallet allows. Nowadays people buy a Cruze because that is their budget. While I do agree with some about some cars are too large bit (for example I would prefer to drive a Kizashi instead of an Altima for example but the Kizashi at least has enough room for me to sit in back as the same for my kids) most of the shift to smaller cars is due to forces beyond the control of the buyers

declining income and purchasing power

rising fuel prices

rising taxes and other daily expenses

CAFE

globalization of powertrains and the Eurotax etc. on displacement.

I love the idea of a car that gets great Mpg. But there is also first cost, and there is also function, is the car large enough for what i do ....more importantly if i load it up with 4 people and bags for 3-4 days.

I think CAFE needs a repeal. Let the market work by itself. Gas tax is probably one of the more fair ways to encourage or discourage fuel consumption.

In todays world it is sad you can fool most of the people all of the time but thank God that some of the people are still not fooled at all and understand what is going on in the real world. Too bad it is fewer everyday.

Just look at how many can't even name who their senator is or even who the vice president is so how can we expect them to understand how regulation is affecting their lives positive or negative. Some people get what they deserve too bad they take the rest of us with them.

It is what it is.

.

[riviera74]

Let us get two things straight: CAFE itself is thoroughly lame and deserves to be repealed NOW. Second, V8 power is great but unnecessary because most people cannot afford $3.50 for regular and $4 for premium for a gallon of gas. If I were in the market right now, I would get a Chrysler 300 or a Hyundai Genesis (sedan) with the v6 because the v8 is unnecessary AND fuel economy is somewhat better. Yes, there is a price premium for v8 engines in virtually every car that offers one now. One reason the v8 can be safely replaced by 4cyl engines is that of rising safety standards over the last 25 years or so. Higher safety standards tend to make cars themselves heavier, regardless of engine size or type. Compare a a Chevy Citation or Chevette to today's Spark: from a safety stanpoint there is no comparison. The only penalty is weight.

As for a $40K Impala, I am unsurprised by this but I would like to see if the car itself merits such a price by being in one. I do think that GM should push the Malibu much harder and sell more of those (like 4:1 is a good ratio) to allow the 2014 Impala to be more exclusive than it is currently.

[Drew Dowdell]

Why did GM panic and down size to generic ugly boxes in the 80's CAFE, Why did they look for a replacement for the V8 in the Corvette till they invested more technology that found more MPG. CAFE.

Why did GM build the X body and then the J cars etc. all with FWD, CAFE.

What is todays greatest concern of each automaker CAFE.

The CAFE mandates have done a lot of harm to MFG's as it has forced them into a box. But it also has forced them to use better and much more expensive technology. We would still be on carburetors and not see a growth in better Turbo chargers etc. It has been a two edges sword with good and bad effects.

The bottom line if you think in your utopian Willy Wonka world that todays cars would not look like they do today without Government mandated CAFE, Emissions and Crash Standards may be I have given you too much credit.

Before you get your panties in a bunch this is not just a party thing but just a government thing as much of this would have come no matter who was in charge. Of late the levels were taken to a palace most MFG just have not figured out how to meet them now.

I wonder how much more the coming mostly aluminum Atlas based Ford F150 will cost. Of course they are going mostly aluminum because of all the red necks down south are demanding that their truck be built from aluminum, Right not a desperate attempt to find more MPG and keep a larger truck? The CAFE has nothing to do with that one! LOL!

To each his own.

GM didn't build the X-cars because of CAFE, they built the X-cars because people started buying Civics, Corollas, and Datsun 210s.

GM's panic was in response to people (The Market) moving towards these small foreign imports on their own. Fuel Economy was foremost on everyone's mind at the time... CAFE was a symptom, not a cause.

Chrysler got into their bad spot because THE MARKET stopped buying their huge gas guzzling cars, they Chrysler didn't downsize their vehicles quick enough to meet the demands of the market... CAFE had nothing to do with it.

Blaming CAFE for what cars are today is a distraction. Yes the government rules are cumbersome, but the market is a far stronger force on the automotive landscape. If you're a mid-30-something with $30k to spend on a car, chances are you're buying a 4-cylinder FWD sedan rather than a Camaro SS. It's not some conspiracy... it's just where the market is.

[hyperv6]

Why did GM panic and down size to generic ugly boxes in the 80's CAFE, Why did they look for a replacement for the V8 in the Corvette till they invested more technology that found more MPG. CAFE.

Why did GM build the X body and then the J cars etc. all with FWD, CAFE.

What is todays greatest concern of each automaker CAFE.

The CAFE mandates have done a lot of harm to MFG's as it has forced them into a box. But it also has forced them to use better and much more expensive technology. We would still be on carburetors and not see a growth in better Turbo chargers etc. It has been a two edges sword with good and bad effects.

The bottom line if you think in your utopian Willy Wonka world that todays cars would not look like they do today without Government mandated CAFE, Emissions and Crash Standards may be I have given you too much credit.

Before you get your panties in a bunch this is not just a party thing but just a government thing as much of this would have come no matter who was in charge. Of late the levels were taken to a palace most MFG just have not figured out how to meet them now.

I wonder how much more the coming mostly aluminum Atlas based Ford F150 will cost. Of course they are going mostly aluminum because of all the red necks down south are demanding that their truck be built from aluminum, Right not a desperate attempt to find more MPG and keep a larger truck? The CAFE has nothing to do with that one! LOL!

To each his own.

GM didn't build the X-cars because of CAFE, they built the X-cars because people started buying Civics, Corollas, and Datsun 210s.

GM's panic was in response to people (The Market) moving towards these small foreign imports on their own. Fuel Economy was foremost on everyone's mind at the time... CAFE was a symptom, not a cause.

Chrysler got into their bad spot because THE MARKET stopped buying their huge gas guzzling cars, they Chrysler didn't downsize their vehicles quick enough to meet the demands of the market... CAFE had nothing to do with it.

Blaming CAFE for what cars are today is a distraction. Yes the government rules are cumbersome, but the market is a far stronger force on the automotive landscape. If you're a mid-30-something with $30k to spend on a car, chances are you're buying a 4-cylinder FWD sedan rather than a Camaro SS. It's not some conspiracy... it's just where the market is.

I was around at the time of the X body intro and at that time GM was looking for MPG. You are correct to part of it being due to the Honda and Toyota invasion. But the fact was GM could not meet the standards set by the government.

The fact is GM was looking to eliminate the V8 in the late 70's and early 80's as they did not think they could meet the CAFE with the engine they had. This lead to cars like the Camaro and TA getting a 305 Chevy V8 and even the Vette people testing a two engine V6 Citation as they were told they had to look for ways to live with out the V8.

Now you know as well as I do the V8 was still very popular and cooler heads at GM recognized this and finally looked for ways to improve the MPG in the V8 as much as they could to meet the CAFE.

While areas like on the coast and other areas may have fallen in love with the 4 cylinder smaller cars the middle of the country continued to buy V8 trucks and SUV's because they did not want the smaller cars and smaller engines.

Yes you are correct the market shifted but they bought trucks and SUVs in more cases vs. the 4 cylinder cars.

Today most people buy 4 cylinders for two main reasons. One it is mostly all that is offered if they like it or not but also in many cases it is all they can afford to buy under $30K.

You should run for office as you are much like many in office now that claim a little truth for credibility and go off without fully disclosing the facts.

Just to ask a question. What 30 something that can afford a $30K car has much choice other than a 4 cylinder and a rare V6? It is not what the market demands as much as what little choice the menu offers here.

[hyperv6]

Let us get two things straight: CAFE itself is thoroughly lame and deserves to be repealed NOW. Second, V8 power is great but unnecessary because most people cannot afford $3.50 for regular and $4 for premium for a gallon of gas. If I were in the market right now, I would get a Chrysler 300 or a Hyundai Genesis (sedan) with the v6 because the v8 is unnecessary AND fuel economy is somewhat better. Yes, there is a price premium for v8 engines in virtually every car that offers one now. One reason the v8 can be safely replaced by 4cyl engines is that of rising safety standards over the last 25 years or so. Higher safety standards tend to make cars themselves heavier, regardless of engine size or type. Compare a a Chevy Citation or Chevette to today's Spark: from a safety stanpoint there is no comparison. The only penalty is weight.

As for a $40K Impala, I am unsurprised by this but I would like to see if the car itself merits such a price by being in one. I do think that GM should push the Malibu much harder and sell more of those (like 4:1 is a good ratio) to allow the 2014 Impala to be more exclusive than it is currently.

I totally agree on the repeal but it is not going to happen. The alternative is higher gas tax but there is no one willing to support it in elected office. Nor have any admin in the last 20 years even approached a real energy program.

V8 is still relevant in some models but today we do have viable alturnatives now we never had in the past.

As time goes on the weight will drop in cars but two issues will happen. The cars will get smaller as this is the cheapest way to make them lighter. We will see larger cars drop weight but it will add much more cost to cars that are already over priced.

Like I said the next 10 years will change cars more than we have seen in 50 years,

As for the Impala and price. I have been in it and know what the LTZ is like. To be honest none of these cars are worth $40K but of all in this group the Impala is one of the nicest. It has a lot of room and has the materials in side you have never seen in a Chevy before. It has returned to the formula of years ago of the Caprice with Cadillac like feel but for $15K less.

Chevy understands that the LTZ is only a small part of this line up and will offer the LT1-2 for a much lower price in the $30K range and it will do well with the majority being this model. Years ago the Impala was the less common model and the Impala was the more common one and this is what they have returned too.

The real key now is to move the Lacrosse up as it is now not the better of the two cars outside some options not available on the Chevy. The Chevy got all the things learned on the XTS that they could incorporate that the aging Buick lacks. I expect the Lacrosse will be replaced in a couple years.

[Drew Dowdell]

A 30-something with $30k to spend has, by my count, at least 4 V8 power cars to choose from (Charger, Challenger, Camaro, Mustang) and many more V6es than I care to count.. but at least 1 from every mainstream brand that offers V6/I6 cars. At the $30k mark, the V6 is not a rare option at all.

GM was panicked about the V8 because at the time, quite frankly, their V8s sucked. By the mid '70s, the Oldsmobile 350 was putting out 160 horsepower and using a gallon of gas every 18 miles to do it... if you were lucky. The country just had its first two oil shocks, and the President was on T.V. telling them to put on a sweater and showing them how to lower the thermostat.

At the same time, Datsun was putting out a 1.4 liter with 85 horsepower and a 2.4 liter I-6 that made 125hp. It doesn't take a mathematician to figure out that if Datsun can produce 85 horsepower at 1.4 liters (and get 27mpg), then Oldsmobile is in trouble using 5.7 liters to make 160hp. GM's response was to build another V8, the HT-4100, with just 10hp more.

So.. yes CAFE was there... but the panic was (justifiably) over the import models.... it's even reflected in the commercials and dealer training videos of the time that Ninety-Eight has so kindly posted.

[hyperv6]

A 30-something with $30k to spend has, by my count, at least 4 V8 power cars to choose from (Charger, Challenger, Camaro, Mustang) and many more V6es than I care to count.. but at least 1 from every mainstream brand that offers V6/I6 cars. At the $30k mark, the V6 is not a rare option at all.

GM was panicked about the V8 because at the time, quite frankly, their V8s sucked. By the mid '70s, the Oldsmobile 350 was putting out 160 horsepower and using a gallon of gas every 18 miles to do it... if you were lucky. The country just had its first two oil shocks, and the President was on T.V. telling them to put on a sweater and showing them how to lower the thermostat.

At the same time, Datsun was putting out a 1.4 liter with 85 horsepower and a 2.4 liter I-6 that made 125hp. It doesn't take a mathematician to figure out that if Datsun can produce 85 horsepower at 1.4 liters (and get 27mpg), then Oldsmobile is in trouble using 5.7 liters to make 160hp. GM's response was to build another V8, the HT-4100, with just 10hp more.

So.. yes CAFE was there... but the panic was (justifiably) over the import models.... it's even reflected in the commercials and dealer training videos of the time that Ninety-Eight has so kindly posted.

Of the models you state if ordered with a V8 you do not get much car.

Like I said in the next 10 years there will be changes we have not seen in the auto industry for year. GM has told their people to shut up on the new CAFE but there are many who still feel as Lutz and others who still speak out on it. Right now F has no plan that will meet the standard. They are still looking for ways to meet it with out having to buy credits. I have seen enough quotes from GM people before they were told to stand down to know where their concerns are.

The other issue is how to meet these levels and still offer cars that people will want, can afford and will not be a pile of junk when the hybrid system fails.

No matter if you agree or not the future will hold a lot of change and it will be interesting to see how they MFG deal with it. 52 MPG is something that will be difficult to meet unless the have some technology they have not shown us yet.

[Drew Dowdell]

52 mpg is diesel hybrid... nothing that remarkable by 2025.

[Camino LS6]

All I can say at this point is that I'll never buy a new car I don't like.

[Lamar]

For all the bellyaching about the Impala touching $40K... no one ever held a gun to a customer's head and said "check all the boxes or I'm gonna drop you right here." Nor has anyone kidnapped someone's child and forced them to buy the high-line model on the showroom floor as ransom.

Also, I would have figured that people would rejoice over the fact that the Impala was no longer the inexpensive, archaic entry in the large sedan market (an honor previously held by the Ford Panthers). And yet, here we are.

[Robert Hall]

Some people will always find something to bitch about. Such is the nature of internet forums.

[Lamar]

Some people will always find something to bitch about. Such is the nature of internet forums.

I keep forgetting that...

[Drew Dowdell]

On noooess!!!

[smk4565]

I totally agree with Drew on market shift and it isn't the government forcing out V8's and big cars it is the market. For most drivers, 200 hp is suitable and a 4-cylinder gets you that. And monster vehicles just seem uncool or tacky now, where people now don't want the image of excess, but now they want to have the image of how responsible they are and how they care about the environment. The Navigator was the status symbol of 1998, in 2008 it was the Prius. Times change.

Neither the Impala or Taurus (or Maxima) are worth $43k to me, they do pack on a lot of options that on a BMW or Benz would cost you over $50k, but still, $43k for a big front driver just isn't worth it to me. The Genesis has better value in that regard, or a loaded Fusion gets you most of what you get in the Taurus, and the Fusion looks better, assuming we are comparing new cars, because $40k buys a heck of a used car.

[hyperv6]

52 mpg is diesel hybrid... nothing that remarkable by 2025.

Not remarkable just that will be the average by then.

Some how the market has to change to love those by then. Today GM only expect 10% of the Cruze to be Diesel. They better find a lot of love in the next 10 years LOL!

[Drew Dowdell]

VW is running around 30% production in diesels. If GM makes the Cruze right, they'll find the love. Mazda too.

[hyperv6]

VW is running around 30% production in diesels. If GM makes the Cruze right, they'll find the love. Mazda too.

Err.... Right.

Problem is Chevy is not German or VW.

Besides 30% is far too few. Where is the other MPG going to come from? Is GM and the other going to higher Penn and Teller?

[Robert Hall]

GM's problem is they sell far too many 3 ton pickups and SUVs that get poor mileage. Their product mix is skewed toward inefficient heavy trucks..

[smk4565]

GM's problem is they sell far too many 3 ton pickups and SUVs that get poor mileage. Their product mix is skewed toward inefficient heavy trucks..

Yep, and they keep rehashing the 5.3 liter V8 when they need to put a 3.0 liter turbo diesel V6 in that will make more torque and probably get 27 mpg, rather than 22.

[riviera74]

GM's problem is they sell far too many 3 ton pickups and SUVs that get poor mileage. Their product mix is skewed toward inefficient heavy trucks..

Yep, and they keep rehashing the 5.3 liter V8 when they need to put a 3.0 liter turbo diesel V6 in that will make more torque and probably get 27 mpg, rather than 22.

GM's first new commandment is "Thou shalt NOT leave money on the table!" Diesels are great and they should do them. But without the Vortec truck engines (and profits that come from BOF trucks) GM is in the morgue because of all the profits left on the table. Can the trucks get lighter? Sure, but will you pay for it?

A $40K Impala sounds expensive, but compared to its direct competition, it sounds normal. The problem GM will face is that the Genesis and 300/Charger twins look fabulous at $40K primarily because of RWD.

[Lamar]

$40K Impala sounds expensive, but compared to its direct competition, it sounds normal. The problem GM will face is that the Genesis and 300/Charger twins look fabulous at $40K primarily because of RWD.

I priced out the most expensive 300 V6 I could, and it topped out at $42,770. Above that, you're getting a V8 for your trouble.

Most decked-out Charger V6 tops out around $38k. To crest $40k, again, you're getting a Hemi.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Lamar