Chevrolet News:Rumorpile: Is This The 2014 Corvette's Rear End?

[hyperv6]

Camino sorry if you took that as a snide remark it was not directed at you only but it was a blanket statment on many who really have not lived with a modern Turbo engine. I used to think the same way till I owned and lived with one and now I understand what is possible now. In the past you would have to put my cold dead body behind a 4 cylinder turbo and today I love it. Things have changed that much.

Ok lets address some comments here. 300 HP in the Eco is not an issue. The only think that limits my Turbo is the 315 FT-LBS the 4 speed tranny can handle. There on many people today running this combo with pushing up to near 400 HP and no issues. If you take a look at what GM recomends power wise on the LNF Turbo they only recomend changes to the rods and pistons at 400 HP. Many of the parts are well suited for much much more power in stock form.

Second it is no louder than stock and durability is covered under the GM 5 year 100,000 mile warranty. I know of many that have gone well into the 6 figures with no issues.

As for Fuel the stock settings are Premium Recomended not Required. This is no different than my 3800 SC Seried III. The only difference you notive is the loss of about 20-30 HP and lower boost. Note MPG in my Turbo or SC engines were the same no matter what.

As for viberation? Why would it viberate any more at 300 HP? This statment shows a lack of understanding of how far these engines have come.

The think to note it while I know some V8 applications can get higher Highway MPG the do taper off fast around town and if driven anything but easy they do use much more fuel.

Noted with my Eco Turbo that driven hard daily it will return 23-24 City MPG in winter and 25-26 MPG City. Yes this is includes launches where I see boost levels at or near 23 PSI. So this is not some hypermile trick.

Also note the GM Turbo Upgrade I installed moved me from 250 HP to 290 HP and added 1-2 MPG City and Highway. This was not only confirmed with other owners but I also confirmed it with Bill Duncan the GM driveline engineer who developed the Upgrade kit. He and his staff are already at work with similar kits for the present Turbo engines on the market and this time they have better transmissions and more RWD vheicles for them. Note the Solstice with my kit would do 340 FT-LBS.

The kit is only a change in two MAP sensors and a Computer flash. I paid $300 for the increase and install to bump up my performance.

As for the added cost? On average it may cost me $1 to $2 max a week more since the kit make the engine Premium Required. Note I only used Premium anyways. At least this way I could chose what fuel and how much pefromance.

As of now I agree with a FWD the 300 HP give or take a little is about right just due to the lack of traction. The FWD unloads the front end with the weight transfer and it can be a challange to hook up the tires. I have even has tire spin at 50-55 MPH. in dry and 60 MPH in damp conditions. Note this was with Pilots that were not the best grip anyways. But it is fun just punch the gas at 35 and let the tires rip. Thank God for Launch control on this vehicle. The only flaw with my vehicle is the FWD and the lack of traction. The torque steer is pretty well under control on even grip surfaces.

Note my Vehicle is not any lightweight either at 3200 pounds. 14 flat in the 1/4 is easy and if you can get traction 13's are possible. Some of the guys with stacked tuning are in the 12's and high 11's with slicks.

One key to all of this is the DI. The one trick everyone needs to learn with DI is how to get the MPG. This trick should work with the V8 too. The key is off gas time. The engine if it has larger amounts of low end torque will help get the car up to speed faster and you off the gas pedal. If you are coasting the fuel is cut off all together. This was explained to me by BIll Duncan of GM. He said even if you put it in neutral you will not cut the fuel off but left in drive it will shut the fuel down and this is where we pick up a lot of miles. It is something GM learned while doing the Turbo engines.

As for MPG today any company that can pick up 1-2 MPG with more than good power will sell their left nut for it. Lets face it they are building 3 cylinders because they want to. MPG is hard and expensive to come buy and each MPG gain cost more and more per ever MPG you step up. Things are tough now and will only get worse as the average goes higher. As the average get higher you will be able to buy the powerful V8 cars but you had better have a full wallet. There will not be many and they will not be cheap.

I see the Turbo V6 now as only a start of what they can do. Not all of it will be massive power but it will also be used for low torque bands to get the feel and the cars moving and then let the lesser power keep them rolling. GM already showing us this with the new 1.6 Turbo.

The only real down side to all of this is more parts that could go bad but today most of these parts are being built to levels that they need to be. GM learned a hard lesson with the non water cooled and cheap turbo T types they did in the past that never lived more than 35,000 miles.

Note too the Turbo V6 will be like the V8 and will be limited to only a handful of vehicles. It will never be a wide use engine. The Turbo 4 will make up 70% of the market at some point and we also will see an increase of the 3 cylinders over time. The V8 is as big now as it will ever be again. So if you got em smoke em.

This is not a GM move but a market wide move as they are all moving in this direction.

[Camino LS6]

Thanks for the specifics Hyper, you help make the case.

We do part ways on the question of the V6, but not all that much.

[Drew Dowdell]

Camino, can you explain why you feel the advances in the Turbo 4-cylinders won't carry over to the V6es eventually?

[Camino LS6]

Camino, can you explain why you feel the advances in the Turbo 4-cylinders won't carry over to the V6es eventually?

They might.

In fact I am surprised that they so far have not. That's one of my objections to the V6 in general. If it had improved in both efficiency and power as much as the 4s and 8s have, I'd have much less objection.

But they haven't.

And honestly, I don't understand why.

[Camino LS6]

I guess that AFM is the only thing I can point to which explains some of the V6 lag.

A V8 cruising on 4 cylinders would seem to have a greater advantage than a V6 cruising on 4 cylinders.

[Drew Dowdell]

As of yet, there are no AFM Turbos.

There has been no DI-turbo DOHC V6, nor Twin-Turbo.

In short the "why not?" is because they haven't been released yet for us to see. If you go by what GM can do with the 2.0T, a 3.6 Twin Turbo with direct injection could see well over 400 horsepower. Just a straight shot of multiplying the HP/Liter out (I know this isn't a true thing) gives you up to 531hp.

GM was doing 300hp Turbo V6es without the benefit of DOHC, Direct Injection, or Variable Valve timing 30 years ago.... imagine what they can do today.

The Ford Ecoboosts have a lot of meat left on the table.

[Camino LS6]

Perhaps.

But the V6 will remain an overlap engine, and require great expense as well as complexity to equal both its smaller and larger counterparts.

I remain dubious about the value here.

[hyperv6]

The issue with the late coming V6 is simple. They have been available in Europe already but the American companies are lagging because they did not have the money to bring them to market till now.

GM showed the first 3.6 DI TT back in 04 on the Holden and then a couple years later on the Camaro. GM did not move forward with these till they got the money. The 4 cylinder Turbo was out but stalled in 4 cars due to the lack of money. Once the money arrived more Turbo 4 cylinders arrived. The fact is the 4 cylinder Turbo was a priority and the V6 less so but will be good as an option. The V6 will help in the larger cars like the CTS and who knows a 3.0 TT for the Lacrosse? Once they build more even one in the Regal would be nice.

The way I see it the power needs will predict the engine used.

150 HP- 200 HP 3 cylinder Turbo

200HP-350HP Turbo 4 cylinder

350 HP-450 HP V6

450 HP - 750 HP V8

The myth of the high milage V8 has some truth to it where it under the right conditions can get very good MPG but in general hard use it will still use plenty of gas. It will hold its own but if the V8 was the answer to all things it would be in everything alas it is not.

The Turbo V6 can be tuned to take advantage of the low end torque and can more easily hit targets for the MPG but it too can be thristy if used hard. But there is also a marketing aspect to these engines the Chevy V8 does not have. While the V8 is a very good engine many buyers of other makes still look upon it as a boat anchor which we know is not true. But if you want to lure a buyer from Audi to a Buick you have to serve them what they like. This is no different than people thinking because a car is German it is better. We know better but you can't change minds till you attract them to your product.

Anyways GM was to the DI Turbo market first but who in the unwashed masses knows since GM never really marketed the engine?

Ford was second and has done a hell of a job marketing their engines but I believe GM has a better engine but they still need to better market them once they are out.

Chrysler is still behind on everything since Fiat has been slow to respond in fixing things other than revamps of the old cars and old Fiats. As of now they are trying to say thier non DI engines are competitive but the truth is they are trying to buy time. Be sure they will also have DI once they get the investment to build them ready.

The only worry I have with DI is the lack of fuel with cleaners for the carbon in the intakes. All valves leak in the guides a little They need to to lube the valve. In the past the incoming fuel would clean the intake unless the oil was too much. Today VW and Audi have had issues with carbon build up since the fuel is injected into the cylinder. GM has had some TSBs as has Ford.

GM has left a little spot under compression the intake valve is open to catch some of the fuel and cleaners but it may not always be enough. If guides leak much there can be some real carbon issues in the future.

Trucks will have a lower powered V8 yet to suit the light truck need.

[hyperv6]

The one thing we should all focus on is Torque Curves with DI and Turbo's. HP is secondary but the the low starting point and flat torque curves are something that most NA engines just can not produce. This is the key to MPG and feel of power in the smaller more efficent engines.

[Camino LS6]

I see the horsepower breakdown this way:

up to 300HP - 4cyl. in FWD

up to 350HP - 4cyl. in RWD/AWD

300HP and up - 8Cyl (except where packaging or marketing require the V6)

The V6 would remain a horsepower overlap option.

[hyperv6]

The reason I push the 300 HP of the 4 over is we are already starting to see companies moving past the 300 HP mark or already showing they are intending to go there.

The NA V6 will be the work horse of the next step with TT V6 for performance versions and larger cars.

The V8 will become less used in cars as time goes on. I-2 MPG may not be much to some here but there are many sleepless in Detroit looking for this much.

I ponder will GM push the 4.3 in the trucks and try to market it as well as Ford did the Ecoboost? Ford Marketing did a hell of a good job and made them a lot of money and got a lot of positive press with this combo. If the reviews of the 4.3 do not come back good and better than the Ford God help them.

The only GM vehicles getting the V8 will be the Full Size Trucks and SUV's, the CTS V, LTS , Caprice police packeage, SS sedan, The top line Camaros, Corvette. I see no other Chevy getting a V8 nor do I see any Buicks getting it. There is a chance Cadillac may have some unknown model pending but if they do it will not be less than $70,000 if it has a V8.

The ATS, CTS Impala and Lacross will remin mostly V6 with under half the Camaro's being V6. The V6 will still play well in the Large FWD SUV segment but I expect the next Nox and Terrain to go 4 cylinder with a turbo option only.

Edited January 1, 2013 by hyperv6

[regfootball]

The issue with the 130 is it is either a love hate kind of car. The repsonse to it has been very divided at best.

The issue I have with the car is not the parts of it's styling as each one is nice but put them together and they just do not look like they all belong on the same car. A old 67 Nova had more flow to it.

While I am not in favor of two Apha Coupes in the Chevy line up there is one thing to consider. Now the Camaro will be shared with the ATS and CTS line they can now afford to sell fewer Camaro's. There will be no need to try to push 100,000 units to keep the line viable. With this in mind we could keep the Camaro a V8 and TT V6 car and do a second Alpa car as a NA V6 and 4 cylinder car. Lets face it GM has always had issues pushing a V6 car even with 325 HP.

Too bad the public is so brain washed that they can not drive RWD in the snow as a small RWD Malibu would be a cool thing. Too many will avoid it as they have been convinced RWD does not work in the snow. AWD would help sell this but would also push the price into Buicks area too.

One thing to consider is if they were to do another Apha coupe for Chevy I would expect a sedan too. Too many lost sales just with a coupe. Love em all you like but they are still a limited sale vehicle.

I saw a rare CTS coupe yesterday and told the wife it is a same they so not sell more of them than they do as it is a very striking car. I just hope they do something as stylish for the ATS or new CTS at some point.

CTS coupe is a striking car, but it still doesn't overcome the fact that is only has 2 doors, which is why it doesn't sell much.

RWD too, I think i maybe had one customer ever that was looking specifically for a RWD car when I sold. ALmost exclusively people looking to fill the basic need of transportation wanted a car they could get around in winter with much easier. One of the most frequent questions I got was, 'it's front wheel drive, right?"

[regfootball]

Show me.

Show me in cars/trucks that also offer a V8.

Then, take a look at cars that offer a 4 and a V6.

If a hot 4 is offered, the V6 starts to look pointless.

If a V6 can't offer at least 5MPG over the same vehicle with an 8, what good is it really?

Sorry, but I just see V6s as overlap offerings.

Chrysler 300 and Charger with pentastar get like 300hp and 30 mpg with 8 speed auto and provide a driving experience very close to the hemi, which uses like 25 or 30% more fuel.

[regfootball]

Camino, can you explain why you feel the advances in the Turbo 4-cylinders won't carry over to the V6es eventually?

Part of why manufacturers are rushing to turbo fours is the entire block + cylinders and heads is a lot less expensive. Two less pistons, 8 less valves, one less head, two less camshafts. Once the manufacturers learned how to tame the NVH of the four, got turbos semi reliable, get the needed power, mpg, then the added cost for a turbo vs. all that extra hardware is pretty cost effective. I am sure that is how the bean counters look at it. No way GM would ever move to turbo fours unless they could justify it versus the more popular engine options.

But in the end it will be as you say, the advancements will filter to the 6 cylinders also and make a great alternative to v8's.

[Camino LS6]

What a narrow and bleak picture you guys paint.

[hyperv6]

The issue with the 130 is it is either a love hate kind of car. The repsonse to it has been very divided at best.

The issue I have with the car is not the parts of it's styling as each one is nice but put them together and they just do not look like they all belong on the same car. A old 67 Nova had more flow to it.

While I am not in favor of two Apha Coupes in the Chevy line up there is one thing to consider. Now the Camaro will be shared with the ATS and CTS line they can now afford to sell fewer Camaro's. There will be no need to try to push 100,000 units to keep the line viable. With this in mind we could keep the Camaro a V8 and TT V6 car and do a second Alpa car as a NA V6 and 4 cylinder car. Lets face it GM has always had issues pushing a V6 car even with 325 HP.

Too bad the public is so brain washed that they can not drive RWD in the snow as a small RWD Malibu would be a cool thing. Too many will avoid it as they have been convinced RWD does not work in the snow. AWD would help sell this but would also push the price into Buicks area too.

One thing to consider is if they were to do another Apha coupe for Chevy I would expect a sedan too. Too many lost sales just with a coupe. Love em all you like but they are still a limited sale vehicle.

I saw a rare CTS coupe yesterday and told the wife it is a same they so not sell more of them than they do as it is a very striking car. I just hope they do something as stylish for the ATS or new CTS at some point.

CTS coupe is a striking car, but it still doesn't overcome the fact that is only has 2 doors, which is why it doesn't sell much.

RWD too, I think i maybe had one customer ever that was looking specifically for a RWD car when I sold. ALmost exclusively people looking to fill the basic need of transportation wanted a car they could get around in winter with much easier. One of the most frequent questions I got was, 'it's front wheel drive, right?"

As I have said the market has shifted and what was once the must have is not longer true. RWD and Coupes are the odd model out with the majority of buyers.

There is a small and slow growing segment for Coupes again but it mostly to the smaller sport coupe market. It may come back at some point so I think they should always offer coupes in some form but not just in every model. With cars growing smaller people are still looking at utility more than style.

Many of the average type buyers today grew up in Honda and Toyota families. There is no sense of need for RWD and V8 engines as they have lived this long without them already. It is sad but many have never eve driven a V8 or owned a car with 2 doors.

[Robert Hall]

Many of the average type buyers today grew up in Honda and Toyota families. There is no sense of need for RWD and V8 engines as they have lived this long without them already. It is sad but many have never ever driven a V8 or owned a car with 2 doors.

Or driven a car w/ a manual transmission. Different world today for drivers. I can't imagine ever owning a FWD 4cyl automatic car in my lifetime, unless I have a lobotomy.

Edited January 1, 2013 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[hyperv6]

One thing to note on the 3.0 and 3.6 NA engines are they really do not pull much till they get 4000 RPM or more. You really have to rev them to get much pull. Adding a Turbo system would move the torque lower and the need to rev is not longer needed. I see the same with my 2.0 as it will run all day at low RPM with plenty of pull. Now I have also spent time with many a 2.4 that also has to pull RPM to get anywhere.

As for why 4 cylinders. It has much more to do with lighter, smaller and simple physics that smaller engines can be made more efficent. With a Turbo you can have your cake and eat it too for MPG and power. The Cruze Eco is a good example of balance between size, power and weight.

Not trying to be narrow and bleak but the regulations are driving the market to narrow the products as you just can't take a 500 HP V8 in a two ton car and meet the coming issues.

Also add to this that people are looking for different things from their cars anymore. The old saying that cars are becoming appliances is true. The things most buyers look for anymore are Reliability, Utility, MPG and Affordable. Styling and image has moved down the list and with cars like the Spark, IQ and Smart car the companies will not promote image or style so much as they have so little to look for. Sad but the fact is cars used to be art work on wheels and today it is just a tool to get where you are going.

To be honest right now is the best of times and the worst of times. We now have more 500 HP cars on the market ever and we have 300 HP 4 cylinder cars getting well over 30 MPG. But time is running out on some of the fun things and the box automakers can work is is getting smaller and smaller.

What is sad is how at places like Autoblog they present a story on the Google cars that will drive you where you want to go. If you make the comment on how this is danageous not only in how someone else can control where and when you go. I asked where are the people who like to drive? To lose the ablitiy to go when you choose or drive how you chose is what scares me and there are plenty of people working toward this today. The plain truth is if they can not get you on a bus there are many out there that would love to make your own car some kind of public transit.

Many of the average type buyers today grew up in Honda and Toyota families. There is no sense of need for RWD and V8 engines as they have lived this long without them already. It is sad but many have never ever driven a V8 or owned a car with 2 doors.

Or driven a car w/ a manual transmission. Different world today for drivers. I can't imagine ever owning a FWD 4cyl automatic car in my lifetime, unless I have a lobotomy.

Who ever though a Ferrari with a gated shifter would be difficult to buy?

[Camino LS6]

Well, if the future is all FWD 4cyl. sedans, then I'm done with new cars.

It really is that simple for me.

[ocnblu]

reg... uh... you worked at a SUZUKI dealership IIRC... if anybody does research, they know ahead of time what they're getting.

And I think the CTS coupe has a very polarizing design stylistically, and that is what keeps its sales down.

[G. David Felt]

300hp 4 cyl? There isn't anything like that in production currently AFAIK. Sounds like it would be dreadful...loud, vibrating, short shelf life.

Your Right nothing in production but a 350HP Direct Injection V4!

http://www.katechengines.com/engineering/katech-v4/

[Robert Hall]

300hp 4 cyl? There isn't anything like that in production currently AFAIK. Sounds like it would be dreadful...loud, vibrating, short shelf life.

Your Right nothing in production but a 350HP Direct Injection V4!

http://www.katecheng...ring/katech-v4/

I'm talking production engines in production cars, not aftermarket stuff.

Edited January 1, 2013 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[hyperv6]

Here is a little on the 2.3 Ford Ecoboost that we should see here soon. The Focus will have it and I expect the Mustang. 350 HP.

http://www.topspeed.com/cars/ford-focus-rs/ke438.html

This is where the 4 cyliner performance market is heading.

[hyperv6]

Well, if the future is all FWD 4cyl. sedans, then I'm done with new cars.

It really is that simple for me.

Not all FWD 4 cylinder sedan. There will be some RWD and larger V8 coupes but they will not be cheap. Price will help limit the market is what the companies are looking at at some point. The prices will rise over the next 10 plus years to the point it will be difficult to afford anything with a large engine unless you have the means.

[Robert Hall]

Here is a little on the 2.3 Ford Ecoboost that we should see here soon. The Focus will have it and I expect the Mustang. 350 HP.

http://www.topspeed....s-rs/ke438.html

This is where the 4 cylinder performance market is heading.

Interesting.. Definitely a long way from the dreadful 88hp 2.3 I remember from my '86 Mustang LX.

[hyperv6]

reg... uh... you worked at a SUZUKI dealership IIRC... if anybody does research, they know ahead of time what they're getting.

And I think the CTS coupe has a very polarizing design stylistically, and that is what keeps its sales down.

Other than the Camaro and Mustang what coupe sells in greater numbers. I can not think of one that even reaches 50% of the sedan sales of a similar model.

The Camaro is also Polarizing too as not everyone loves it either but it still sells.

[Robert Hall]

Well, if the future is all FWD 4cyl. sedans, then I'm done with new cars.

It really is that simple for me.

Not all FWD 4 cylinder sedan. There will be some RWD and larger V8 coupes but they will not be cheap. Price will help limit the market is what the companies are looking at at some point. The prices will rise over the next 10 plus years to the point it will be difficult to afford anything with a large engine unless you have the means.

FWD 4cyl automatic sedans (and CUVs) is the majority of the market today, soulless generic appliances..only going to get worse, since most new car drivers don't care about driving, that's where we are....such it is.

Edited January 1, 2013 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[hyperv6]

Here is a little on the 2.3 Ford Ecoboost that we should see here soon. The Focus will have it and I expect the Mustang. 350 HP.

http://www.topspeed....s-rs/ke438.html

This is where the 4 cylinder performance market is heading.

Interesting.. Definitely a long way from the dreadful 88hp 2.3 I remember from my '86 Mustang LX.

This is not the only one and I am sure GM also has something to answer.

Now the 350 HP 4 cylinders will not be the norm engine but they will be the more go to for performance engine in the smaller cars. They also will not be cheap but they will be cheaper than the V8 engines int he future.

[hyperv6]

Well, if the future is all FWD 4cyl. sedans, then I'm done with new cars.

It really is that simple for me.

Not all FWD 4 cylinder sedan. There will be some RWD and larger V8 coupes but they will not be cheap. Price will help limit the market is what the companies are looking at at some point. The prices will rise over the next 10 plus years to the point it will be difficult to afford anything with a large engine unless you have the means.

FWD 4cyl automatic sedans (and CUVs) is the majority of the market today, soulless generic appliances..only going to get worse, since most new car drivers don't care about driving, that's where we are....such it is.

I bame the goverment for forcing the high regs and I blame the complacent public as they do not demand much from their cars that an enthusisat once did. In the past the automobile was seen as a extention of the owner and today it is just a way to get to the store.

People are more about their I phone and the flat screen TV.

A lot of this is due to the fact people got tired of the junk they were sold in the 70's and with the new cars many are unable to do the performance game anylonger. Even the old cars are not much of an option since even a rusted out Nova is no longer cheap. I had a Chevelle SS and GMC Sprint SP at one time. Today a 20 year old kid let alone an older adult could afford one let alone both.

[Camino LS6]

Well, sedans are out as is anything FWD, same for any CUV.

Oh, but the choices dwindle.

I can only hope for the occasional interesting RWD entry... maybe one per decade?

Sheesh! Makes me think terrible things about the folks that make up the general public.

The genericism of it all turns my stomach.

[ocnblu]

2.3L Ecoboost makes me remember the Ford 2.3L SVO turbo 4 from back in the day... used in the Mustang and T-bird, IIRC...

[Camino LS6]

2.3L Ecoboost makes me remember the Ford 2.3L SVO turbo 4 from back in the day... used in the Mustang and T-bird, IIRC...

If memory serves, both got a special hood.

[ocnblu]

Always cool to see one with a special hood. Ones without are a dime a dozen these days.

[regfootball]

Well, if the future is all FWD 4cyl. sedans, then I'm done with new cars.

It really is that simple for me.

Not all FWD 4 cylinder sedan. There will be some RWD and larger V8 coupes but they will not be cheap. Price will help limit the market is what the companies are looking at at some point. The prices will rise over the next 10 plus years to the point it will be difficult to afford anything with a large engine unless you have the means.

The Chevy SS is a perfect response to this. It will be available to the 10-20k buyers who want a RWD V8 car. Between that, a Camaro, a Corvette, and a couple Cadillacs, the v8 market will be amply covered, at least as far as GM is concerned.

[Camino LS6]

Well, if the future is all FWD 4cyl. sedans, then I'm done with new cars.

It really is that simple for me.

Not all FWD 4 cylinder sedan. There will be some RWD and larger V8 coupes but they will not be cheap. Price will help limit the market is what the companies are looking at at some point. The prices will rise over the next 10 plus years to the point it will be difficult to afford anything with a large engine unless you have the means.

The Chevy SS is a perfect response to this. It will be available to the 10-20k buyers who want a RWD V8 car. Between that, a Camaro, a Corvette, and a couple Cadillacs, the v8 market will be amply covered, at least as far as GM is concerned.

Not even close as far as I'm concerned.

[regfootball]

reg... uh... you worked at a SUZUKI dealership IIRC... if anybody does research, they know ahead of time what they're getting.

And I think the CTS coupe has a very polarizing design stylistically, and that is what keeps its sales down.

Where i worked about 90% of the sales were used, all makes and models, all prices, but was also part of a dealer group that had 2 massive Ford / Lincoln stores and Chevrolet. All the used was available to sell to anyone at any store. In general, and speaking overall based upon inventory sold in all the stores the used was very typical and consistent. Once you subtracted out Mustang sales, there was very little RWD business at all on the car side. When there was a car that was available that had AWD or RWD available, in most cases people were looking for the AWD version. However, some cars did draw in buyers. For example, I sold a RWD manual Mercedes sedan. One major reason it sold was the price was cheap. Usually if people were willing to go RWD on a car that both were available, the price had to be substantially lower to get them to bite (the same was true for pickups). The Chrysler 300's and Dodge Chargers were a car that people didn't really care much about if it was RWD, but at the same time, those cars had to be cheap to move them. G35 coupes seemed to have their stalkers, especially for ones with sticks, but that was also usually young punks or bad credit, or both, and they often were strokers. These are people who simply could not buy / cannot buy. You don't make money off these folks. The G35 sedan AWD's drew a lot more attention. Audis of any kind with quattros were unbelievable magnets and attracted many more buyers than just about any other German piece I could imagine consistently. The AWD Mercedes sedans did well also. BMW's were spotty, they did have their fans. But that mostly people looking for 10+ year old BMW's on the cheap.. If we had any newer BMW's then people wanted those to have AWD also. They expected it. We had a 128i M manual that went unsold for several months and after several price drops and ended up getting auctioned because the only ones who were interested were young punks without the credit or old 'car guys' who wouldn't pull the trigger but wanted to test drive it.

Even Crown Vics and Grand Marquis ended up rotting on lots, winter or summer, unless the price was so low that you lost money.

I had a pretty good survey of what sold not only at my dealership but also the big brothers. One of our Ford dealers was top 20-25 in the country. The whole group sold several thousand new and used vehicles a year. I'd say I have a pretty good idea of what the general population likes to see for affordable cars at least in a typical midwest state.

[Robert Hall]

I'd say I have a pretty good idea of what the general population likes to see for affordable cars at least in a typical midwest state.

That's just the Midwest, though. Different market in So Cal, AZ, TX, Florida and other milder climates where there is more acceptance of RWD....

[Robert Hall]

Not even close as far as I'm concerned.

You are never going to see a new RWD V8 coupe or EL Camino at a Spark price, so you may as well stop dreaming...

[hyperv6]

Well, sedans are out as is anything FWD, same for any CUV.

Oh, but the choices dwindle.

I can only hope for the occasional interesting RWD entry... maybe one per decade?

Sheesh! Makes me think terrible things about the folks that make up the general public.

The genericism of it all turns my stomach.

This is why I keep telling you that you and I no longer represent the kind of buyer the general market is made up of. We are not the fringe.

There will be always something there for us but the issue will be cost and much less choices than we have seen.

The general public anymore are idiots in general. Look at the things they buy, the places they go, and the people they elect. Just check out reality TV and any episode of Cops.

Right now the public are to the point if you tell them something long enough and loud enough they will believe anything.

I'd say I have a pretty good idea of what the general population likes to see for affordable cars at least in a typical midwest state.

That's just the Midwest, though. Different market in So Cal, AZ, TX, Florida and other milder climates where there is more acceptance of RWD....

People here are not affraid of RWD. We who drive in a lot of snow often know what to do. It is the areas that see some snow or people who do not get into much slick driving. We live in the snow belt and we really have few AWD cars and about a normal percentage of RWD.

2.3L Ecoboost makes me remember the Ford 2.3L SVO turbo 4 from back in the day... used in the Mustang and T-bird, IIRC...

Number one mistake as these new engines are nothing like the old SVO crap. It is because of the SVO that I hated Turbo 4 cylinders. Today after the improvments of the new engines I love them.

[Camino LS6]

Not even close as far as I'm concerned.

You are never going to see a new RWD V8 coupe or EL Camino at a Spark price, so you may as well stop dreaming...

Never said that I expected such... not once.

[Camino LS6]

The truth is that anything I'd buy new has to be interesting and a little different.

Not much of that around.

[ocnblu]

Hyper, I am looking forward to the new 2.3L Ecoboost... but I don't want to see a shortage of 5.0 engines in Mustangs. The 5.0 is most at home in the Mustang and F-150... the engine defines the vehicle, and vice versa.

[smk4565]

Motor trend said the 3.6 may be being prepped for use in the C7 likely because of CAFE.

That could top 30mpg highway I bet. But it would probably be a mid 5's 0-60 car then.

Pointless.

No one will ever buy a V6 Corvette.

A lot said that about Cadillac, at least on the full size ones. But here we are with 4-cylinder Cadillacs and V6 full size Cadillacs. The V6 (or flat 6) hasn't hurt the 911 or GT-R any. I think people would buy a V6 Corvette, especially if it got the price down to keep the car affordable. And let's remember a 2004 Corvette had 350 hp, a V6 in 2014 could make that easily.

[balthazar]

>>"And let's remember a 2004 Corvette had 350 hp, a V6 in 2014 could make that easily."<<

But the base car now has 430; 350 is a major drop down as a base car. A lot will look at that as a backwards move / cheapening, not a move forward.

As for 'hasn't hurt the gt-r', gt-r only sold around 1200 units in '12 and the next gen program had not been green-lit yet. It may get its v6 lard-ass killed.

Of course, only you would equate a singular cause to that.

[regfootball]

reg... uh... you worked at a SUZUKI dealership IIRC... if anybody does research, they know ahead of time what they're getting.

And I think the CTS coupe has a very polarizing design stylistically, and that is what keeps its sales down.

Other than the Camaro and Mustang what coupe sells in greater numbers. I can not think of one that even reaches 50% of the sedan sales of a similar model.

The Camaro is also Polarizing too as not everyone loves it either but it still sells.

On one hand, Mustang buyers (and a few Camaro buyers) are 'renewable'. They actually first off have the means to make the purchase, a new one, not a run out used one. But then they actually trade up to another one. I think Mustangs have a lot more loyalty to that than Camaro buyers. And the demographics of both generally are not super wealthy, nor do they flip cars often (generalizing).

I still think the Camaro's current sales are due to the fact that it was off the market so long....that and it's over the top styling were a magnet for a group that had no Camaro available for a long time. That drought and the style was able to attract people who maybe hadn't bought a new car in 10 years or more. And its a segment that is probably graying some. Lots of 40 and 50 somethings re-living the old days. And after this Camaro I am not sure they will be buying another one. I still don't see a ton of younguns in new Camaros. Almost totally white older people, mostly dudes. Now of course part of that is that young uns don't seem to have or spend money for anything but smart phones these days as they all must still live in their parents' basements. (sarcasm but the point is the under 30 set simply is not loaded and in general can't buy a lot of new cars either).

I cannot for the life of me think of many other coupes that can be called volume sellers for any brand. G37/35 and the BMW 3 seem to do somewhat ok. But those are lux cars too.

I drove through the VW lot today. It is pretty shrewd what VW did with the Beetle redesign. They essentially restyled it to make it acceptable to more genders and more ages and in effect created the perfect coupe and Golf 3 door replacement at the same time. Sales are up, and it should reach many more buyers for a long time. Now you know why VW really doesn't try to market the regular 3 door Golf hardly, and also the Beetle is partially why we don't get the Corrado here, that and the fact that the Corrado is a......COUPE. Coupes don't light up the sales charts, look at all the sedan Jettas that get sold.

I will be very interested to see how the Elantra coupe sells.

Edited January 2, 2013 by regfootball

[regfootball]

I'd say I have a pretty good idea of what the general population likes to see for affordable cars at least in a typical midwest state.

That's just the Midwest, though. Different market in So Cal, AZ, TX, Florida and other milder climates where there is more acceptance of RWD....

Yes that is true however, you can tell over history how pretty much any automaker that wanted its line to sell consistently across the entire 50 and through each month of the year ultimately had to add AWD to their most popular models. BMW, Merc, Infiniti etc.

Another recent case in point was Jaguar, adding AWD to the XK or whatever. Hyundai will be required to add it to EQuus and Genesis if they want to move more of them where its wet.

I do understand how in CA or AZ etc. the benefits of RWD will be more sought after and more appreciated. But if there were an overwhelming demand as such, then makers who do the bang up business in those states would be a lot more concerned with having more RWD models (toyo, honda, etc.). And cars that offer AWD and promote them as such do make them available FWD or RWD only in that case the buyer saves some dough. Point being that between coupes and cars with limited drivetrain options that cannot cover the wet and cold states well, will ultimately have regional success with certain models.

Add to that the big push for all the handling benefits of AWD and all its new trickery, you can see they are not just pushing that for weather issues. Lots of buff book articles talk about the AWD hot rods that can apply that power at the track so much better as well.

How about a twin turbo v6 all wheel drive corvette or camaro? That would rattle some traditionalist cages.

Edited January 2, 2013 by regfootball

[G. David Felt]

Here is a little on the 2.3 Ford Ecoboost that we should see here soon. The Focus will have it and I expect the Mustang. 350 HP.

http://www.topspeed....s-rs/ke438.html

This is where the 4 cylinder performance market is heading.

Interesting and exciting to see, but I will take a wait and see attitude as I have not seen turbo 4 bangers last like a good solid V8. Get a 100K miles on these engines and they have pretty much lost their ability to move an auto where a V8 still can get you moved.

[hyperv6]

Here is a little on the 2.3 Ford Ecoboost that we should see here soon. The Focus will have it and I expect the Mustang. 350 HP.

http://www.topspeed....s-rs/ke438.html

This is where the 4 cylinder performance market is heading.

Interesting and exciting to see, but I will take a wait and see attitude as I have not seen turbo 4 bangers last like a good solid V8. Get a 100K miles on these engines and they have pretty much lost their ability to move an auto where a V8 still can get you moved.

While once what you state may have been true it has rapidly become a myth with many of todays smaller engines. There are enough examples of the small engine with very high miles running with little or no issue.

The make up of these turbo engines are amazing. The rods in my LNF are based on the lengendary Pink Rods that help build the heritage of the V8 small blocks racing. My engine also makes use of Sodium filled valves that normally are only seen in high performance aircraft engines today.

It you would read up on the power matrix of the LNF you would be amazed at how much the part of this engine would take. GM recomeds on the LSJ [superchaged engine] that it will be fine till 900 HP. The stock crank in all Eco engines will hold till 600 HP. The block will take up to 1000 HP.

John Lingenfelter before he passed told me he was getting up to 1500 HP with mostly stock parts and was just moving to a after market head when the stock one failed at 1500 HP. He was taking thing to the limit and beyond as at the time he was doing the work there were little to no performance parts for these engines. So in that case he had to use many stock parts and in this case GM learned how far many of them would go. He was running 7 seconds in the 1/4 mile in a Pro Stock Sonoma.

In the pro drift series Ryes Millen had a 500 HP LNF Turbo Solstice. I won the series and did it on one engine with no tear downs and no failures all season.

I had a teacher who raced in the IMSA Champion Spark Plug series years ago and the Ford 4 cylinder was no where as built as the stock engine in my SS is today. The 4 cylinder in the past were just the cheapest and most basic engines as they were not the main focus of the market and they were not in cars that were very expensive. Today this has changes as the Ecotec is now becoming what the Small Block Chevy once was.

I think it was Automobile magazine stated that the new Verano Turbo was a Wold in Buick clothing. I think this statment is very telling on the the engine package. The neat thing is GM stresses this is not a performance car so you can expect more in the future.

As for durable V8 I see as much issues with them as any of the other engines. The only two issues I see on the Eco is a odd head gasket issue or VVT cam sensor. I see similar issues on V8 engines too but most GM engines will go well into the 6 figures in miles with no issue and little loss of performance.

Hell my buddy this week end lost a head gasket in a 43,000 mile N star. It just goes to show you just never know and it can happen to any engine.

Edited January 2, 2013 by hyperv6

[hyperv6]

As for Mustang and Camaro buyers GM and Ford are working to change habits and thinking. GM is not offering a 325 V6 just to say they can. Ford is working to put the Ecoboost 4 and 6 into the next Mustang. Again watch for the V8 to remain but they will be packaged in much more expensive models.

You will be able to get them but you will surly pay for them. The days of the Cheap V8 are on there way out.

Pricing will regulate sales.

Edited January 2, 2013 by hyperv6

[smk4565]

I agree that cheap V8s are going away, suppose a V8 Corvette bases around $60k with the C7. Wouldn't it be nice to have a $50k V6 model to get some more sales? But it depends too on what they want the Corvette to be. It used to be a more attainable car, then as the Z06 and ZR1 models came, they sort of pushed it into Porsche 911 territory. If they want it attainable, put the V6 in there, if they want it to be expensive, keep it V8 only.