A New Dilemma

[Blake Noble]

I'm always having a new one every month it seems. Instead of dragging things out though, I'm going to cut to the chase here: I currently have a 1984 15^th Anniversary Recaro Trans Am on the line. In exchange I'll have to hand over the Camaro for it, it's a dead-even swap. While the Trans Am is far from being perfect, it is 100 percent complete, 98 percent rust free, and in everyday driver status; it just needs the interior refreshed in a few places (headliner, sailpanel fabric, carpet, and the outer seats, typical minor ess-ayche-eye-tee), a new starter (the current one works but it's a bit stubborn), and the paint refreshed (you can get away without repainting it). The T/A also has a rebuilt title because of a previous accident, but the subframe and all other hardpoints all seem to be straight and in order. It's also worth noting that the car has also seen recent use as a daily driver.

Would you pull the trigger? Keep in mind that I don't have to get rid of the Camaro by any means, but this particular Trans Am is quite rare – there were only 1,500 15^th Anniversary T/As built total, and this is one of 1,000 automatic cars made. However, the Trans Am does have a rebuilt title where the Camaro doesn't (it just reads "exceeds mechanical limits"), but the Trans Am seems that can be driven without worry while it's being sorted out where the Camaro is still some distance away from being in driver status. It'll take much longer to arrive at a desired result with the Camaro whereas I could have the Trans Am at 85 percent complete within a year. The Trans Am, even with a branded title, seems that it would worth more restored than the Camaro.

There's also another factor at play here: everyone knows how much I've always wanted a second-gen Firebird or Trans Am, almost to the point of obsessing over it, and I told myself that if I could trade the Camaro off to a Firebird when I bought it, I would probably do it. Granted, this new car that's entered the picture still misses the mark, but it's still a cool Trans Am just the same.

So, yeah. Leave me an honest opinion here, regardless if it's to tell me I'm a moron or whatever. I'm all ears. I don't know how exactly I feel about doing this, but the owner of the Trans Am allowed me to take a few pictures, and I may or may not upload one or two of them to get a better opinion.

Edited November 26, 2012 by black-knight

[z28luvr01]

Post some pics of the TA for a beter assessment of the car, but...

Off hand I say keep the Camaro, and if you really want the TA find some other way to acquire it. The Camaro is a project and you know it, so you're more willing to not rush the car and get it right. The Firebird, because it's so close to a driver, might end up disappointing you once you actually do start driving it. Little things will start anoying you here and there and you'll take a bath trying to dump it. I'm not puting too much stock into the TA's "rareness" factor. Though it's a low volume car (and quite a cool one), it's no '89 Turbo TA. Nothing but badges and color schemes differentiate it from a garden variety TA.

[Robert Hall]

They are both way too old to be a daily driver, IMO, but I'd go w/ the newer car, if the mechanicals are better shape (how does the mileage compare to the Camaro). I'd be more concerned about the electrical accessories on the '84, since the Camaro probably has a lot fewer and is simpler.

[bobo]

This doesn't sound like it would have a happy ending, and the salvage title would worry me, but what do I know. The Gen 3 cars just seemed like rattletraps to me, but they do have an undeniably clean style.

[Blake Noble]

Here are the two best pics I snapped of the Trans Am, one of the exterior and one of the interior.

Post some pics of the TA for a beter assessment of the car, but...

Off hand I say keep the Camaro, and if you really want the TA find some other way to acquire it. The Camaro is a project and you know it, so you're more willing to not rush the car and get it right. The Firebird, because it's so close to a driver, might end up disappointing you once you actually do start driving it. Little things will start anoying you here and there and you'll take a bath trying to dump it. I'm not puting too much stock into the TA's "rareness" factor. Though it's a low volume car (and quite a cool one), it's no '89 Turbo TA. Nothing but badges and color schemes differentiate it from a garden variety TA.

Excellent counterpoint, given that building a better and cheaper daily driver, as well as a "lifetime ride," is the overall goal of this whole sideshow.

They are both way too old to be a daily driver, IMO, but I'd go w/ the newer car, if the mechanicals are better shape (how does the mileage compare to the Camaro). I'd be more concerned about the electrical accessories on the '84, since the Camaro probably has a lot fewer and is simpler.

It's anyone's guess as to how many actual miles are on the Camaro. The odometer read 18,3XX before it was pulled (obviously, it has turned over at least one time) and the title says 122,000. The Trans Am has 113,000 miles. I generally tend to overlook the mileage on older cars like this though, unless of course I'm looking at some sort of stupid cheap survior car or something.

Now, the 350SBC in my Camaro is obviously a much more desirable engine than the 305 in the Trans Am, however it's still a stalemate here. The Trans Am has a very stubborn starter and my Camaro more than likely has a bad waterpump. Both are small issues. Neither car smokes, uses or leaks any fluid, nor does either car mix any fluids. Both run strong.

The T/A does have a lot of creature comforts and, honestly, I don't care for any of them. The Camaro does hold a distinct advantage here of being the simpler car. However, everything was fully functional on the T/A and, if it comes right down to it, most of the electronic engine controls can be removed. At what price, it's hard to say.

It's a small thing, but I don't like how you change fuel pumps in later model F-body cars. Just saying.

This doesn't sound like it would have a happy ending, and the salvage title would worry me, but what do I know. The Gen 3 cars just seemed like rattletraps to me, but they do have an undeniably clean style.

The rebuilt title worries me too. That's one reason why I didn't instantly pull the trigger on the swap. That, and like I said, it still misses the mark.

Edited November 26, 2012 by black-knight

[daves87rs]

Judging by the interior, it just gives a bad vibe. Like part of his story is missing here.

Rare or not, I'd say no to the TA.....

[Blake Noble]

Judging by the interior, it just gives a bad vibe. Like part of his story is missing here.

Rare or not, I'd say no to the TA.....

Hmmmm ... very interesting input, dave. Care to elaborate a little more?

[G. David Felt]

I like anyone could make a auto pretty, but the inside tends to show the real story. It has been driven hard and put away wet with no care. I would pass on this unless you truly have cash to throw into the money pit. The rareness is not a strong enough reason for how much will need to be invested on restoring it.

This truly needs major work and the inside is just a hint to what is lying and waiting for attention out of view.

[Blake Noble]

I like anyone could make a auto pretty, but the inside tends to show the real story. It has been driven hard and put away wet with no care. I would pass on this unless you truly have cash to throw into the money pit. The rareness is not a strong enough reason for how much will need to be invested on restoring it.

This truly needs major work and the inside is just a hint to what is lying and waiting for attention out of view.

I've never really been one to judge a car's entire lifetime based on the condition of the interior, but that's certainly an interesting opinion.

I'm still sleeping on this for now, but the outcome is looking like I might keep the Camaro for the time being. I had planned on at least buying new floorpans around the start of the month, but considering this has shown me what I could potentially trade the Camaro for, I might hold out a little longer. Maybe someone will offer me a running and complete 301 or 305-powered '80 Firebird coupe or maybe a fourth-gen car in exchange for the Camaro. If that happens, then I know exactly what I'm going to do.

[ocnblu]

Well, a white interior is almost impossible to keep looking nice at any rate. The heavily-bolstered (are those Recaros?) areas of the seats are going to get so much wear from sliding in and out. Plus, leather just does not wear well. It cracks from age and generally gets crappy quick unless some horse person owns the car and treats the leather like a saddle with polish and treatments on a regular basis. The cloth inserts are still good on the seats, apparently. The title issue is a concern as always, but I wonder when it was changed? If it was fairly recent, the damage that totaled the car might not have been much due to insurance value.

As far as the Camaro goes, I would keep it and forego the white Pontiac... but a thorough investigation into rust is called for. I would go over that entire car with a magnet or mil gauge and try to come to a conclusion on the rockers, lower quarters, fenders, etc. to get an idea of what you're getting into so you have a better idea of what this project is going to cost.

[GMTruckGuy74]

I'm curious about the T/A - where are all of the blue stripes? I thought that was standard on the 15th Anniversary model? It should look like this:

Since this is not the ideal T/A or Firebird you want, and you have doubts about doing this swap, I would say go with your gut instincts and pass on the T/A. Continue your search for the right one or you'll never be happy.

[Blake Noble]

Well, now I have another Trans Am on the line. Let's see where this goes.

Well, a white interior is almost impossible to keep looking nice at any rate. The heavily-bolstered (are those Recaros?) areas of the seats are going to get so much wear from sliding in and out. Plus, leather just does not wear well. It cracks from age and generally gets crappy quick unless some horse person owns the car and treats the leather like a saddle with polish and treatments on a regular basis. The cloth inserts are still good on the seats, apparently. The title issue is a concern as always, but I wonder when it was changed? If it was fairly recent, the damage that totaled the car might not have been much due to insurance value.

As far as the Camaro goes, I would keep it and forego the white Pontiac... but a thorough investigation into rust is called for. I would go over that entire car with a magnet or mil gauge and try to come to a conclusion on the rockers, lower quarters, fenders, etc. to get an idea of what you're getting into so you have a better idea of what this project is going to cost.

ocn's got it. Because of those exact reasons, I didn't think too much about the condition of the interior. You're right, those seats are Recaros. The heavy bolstering does make these particular seats prone to extreme wear.

I think the owner said that the title change was fairly recent.

I'm curious about the T/A - where are all of the blue stripes? I thought that was standard on the 15th Anniversary model? It should look like this:

Since this is not the ideal T/A or Firebird you want, and you have doubts about doing this swap, I would say go with your gut instincts and pass on the T/A. Continue your search for the right one or you'll never be happy.

The Trans Am was repainted before the title was changed from salvage to rebuilt, which is why the graphics are missing.

[G. David Felt]

I have to disagree with Ocnblu. While a white interior is hard to keep clean, I have had many leather interiors with over 200K miles on them and never had them trashed like this interior is. Leather seats have always lasted for me without having holes. I have always found that the more trashed the interior is, the more trashed the over all auto is. You will want to do some serious investigation on the car as I would not be surprised to find burnt rings, leaking oil, dif and tranny issues, etc. Even electrical could put this into another mess all together.

Just be cautious as it would be better to walk about from a rebuild like this than to get into a money pit.

[z28luvr01]

What bothers me more than the seats is the rug and the trim. Some wear in the driver's side footwell is to be expected, but it's dirty all over, even in low traffic areas. Look at the passengers side trim by the kick panel. there's enough gook to start a small greasefire. This car was not given the care it deserved. It was beat on. Who knows what your main bearings or piston rings look like. Do yourself a favor: pop the hood, find the crank pulley, and give it a good tug. If you have any play you might be looking at an engine rebuild in the near future. Also, a compression test won't hurt. Watch the reaction of the seller while you're doing this too...if he starts to squirm or refuses to let you do anything, he has something to hide.

I won't say pass it up only because I know you're a Firebird guy. If the sheetmetal is good (no cancer bubbles) and you can save the paint job, the hard work is done and it might actually be a doable project. But don't accept it with the assumption that you just need to fix what you see and put it on the road. Treat it like you are the Camaro: Expect to go over every piece of metal, plastic, and rubber.

[Blake Noble]

I'm actually thinking a better option at this point may be to just sell the Camaro for a tidy profit and go in either one of three directions: 1.) take the money and chase down a running and driving base or Esprit model second-gen Firebird or 2.) use it as a down payment on a late fourth-gen Trans Am. I also now have the third option of swapping the Camaro to a numbers matching 1977 Trans Am hardtop car with a Pontiac 400. The Trans Am is physically in the same condition as the Camaro, it's just in primer. I'll put some pics up of the '77 here in a moment.

Edited November 26, 2012 by black-knight

[Blake Noble]

Here's the '77 I have on the line now. I only have one decent shot of it.

[z28luvr01]

Ooooo now this is getting interesting.

I love that front end on the second gen Firebirds. If it's in the same shape as the Camaro as you say, this would be a better project than the '84. Actually, it might be a better car than the Camaro due to the fact that's in primer. Now you've no choice but to do a quality paint job on it. Run a magnet over the typical rust areas to make sure that it was repaired properly. If you can, put it on a lift (or jack it up) and look underneath.And again, take note of the seller's body language. if he's confiednt in the work that's done to it so far, he should let yo go over it with a fine tooth comb without flinching..

[A Horse With No Name]

Judging by the interior, it just gives a bad vibe. Like part of his story is missing here.

Rare or not, I'd say no to the TA.....

I agree, this car has a bad vibe, please stay away...

Here's the '77 I have on the line now. I only have one decent shot of it.

Now this thing has a good vibe to it!

[A Horse With No Name]

I have to disagree with Ocnblu. While a white interior is hard to keep clean, I have had many leather interiors with over 200K miles on them and never had them trashed like this interior is. Leather seats have always lasted for me without having holes. I have always found that the more trashed the interior is, the more trashed the over all auto is. You will want to do some serious investigation on the car as I would not be surprised to find burnt rings, leaking oil, dif and tranny issues, etc. Even electrical could put this into another mess all together.

Just be cautious as it would be better to walk about from a rebuild like this than to get into a money pit.

Exactly...3rd gen cars don't have a high resale...so you'll be out a bunch if you buy it....

[ocnblu]

Formula and Trans Am had a black grille frame, this one appears to be silver. Base cars had silver. Does this car have holes in the fenders and quarters for the ground effects spats to attach? Are there any holes in the rocker panels for a rocker molding that was on a lot of the base cars? Are there holes in the decklid and quarters for the Trans Am spoiler to mount?

Trans Ams also had full gages with tachometer, the Formula steering wheel and a full console.

Here's a link decoding the VIN number, it will tell you if this is a Trans Am: http://allgentransams.com/production_information/vin_decoder/gen2.html

Edited November 27, 2012 by ocnblu

[Blake Noble]

The '77 is a true T/A. The fender extensions were removed to begin the bodywork. As for the grilles, I didn't think to ask. It's more than likely the original ones were broken and replaced with a set out of a base car at some point.

I have a potential three other cars on the line now besides the '77 and '84. I have one '87 Firebird, one '87 Trans Am, and there's even a chance I might be able to snap up a fourth-gen Formula. We'll see. By the time this is all said and done, I'll probably have another Firebird in my possession and come out way, way, way in the black in the process.

Like I said in my other thread, I knew what I was doing when I brought the Camaro home.

Edited November 27, 2012 by black-knight

[Blake Noble]

Granted I'll be sacrificing the simplicity I desired, but after thinking it over tonight I'm going to pursue the fourth-gen route with this and possibly chuck the Astra in the process. While there's a chance I could trade the Camaro for a fourth-gen car, the likely outcome is that I'll sell the Camaro for enough to make a healthy downpayment on a low-mileage example and sell the Astra privately to minimize any potential loss there.

This non-WS6 car would be perfect, although I am suspect of the paint on the front bumper.

Edited November 27, 2012 by black-knight

[GMTruckGuy74]

The '95 Trans Am Coupe I bought used in spring of '98 had paint cracking on the front bumper. Was hit in the fender & headlight bucket by a deer (damaged some of the paint on the nose), so I had the front bumper repainted at my expense. This may be typical GM paint quality issue with the soft nose material. Good luck with your plans, regardless of what Pontiac you end up with

[Blake Noble]

Thanks, GMTG74.

I'm really excited for once about being on the hunt again. I can honestly say I've never been this enthused about it before. There's no rush and no pressure this time around, and once I have the funds to find the right car and all of the chips fall into place, it will be the right car. It's time to buy a car that I'll keep no matter the cost, that when the wheels fall off, I'll just pick 'em back up and put 'em on again, no complaining. I haven't had a car that I've cared enough for to completely and unquestionably devote myself to. I've had cars I've liked and some I miss, but none quite that special ... yet. That's what I want, and for my sake, it's gotta happen.

EDIT: And here we go, banging on all 12 cylinders now. The additional pics should also give you guys a better look at the Camaro and allow anyone to give me some feedback regarding the asking price. http://lexington.craigslist.org/cto/3425027037.html

Edited November 27, 2012 by black-knight

[daves87rs]

I like anyone could make a auto pretty, but the inside tends to show the real story. It has been driven hard and put away wet with no care. I would pass on this unless you truly have cash to throw into the money pit. The rareness is not a strong enough reason for how much will need to be invested on restoring it.

This truly needs major work and the inside is just a hint to what is lying and waiting for attention out of view.

Pretty much in line with what I was thinking....like maybe it lived a hard life before it was painted.....

[z28luvr01]

This non-WS6 car would be perfect, although I am suspect of the paint on the front bumper.

It's hard to tell because of all the reflections, but it looks more like blemishes in the paint (probably a disintegrating clear coat) than anything more serious. It's easy to tell when a black body part has been repainted, and even from the not 100% clear pictures it looks very likely that the paint on the bumper is the same age as the paint rest of the car, ie it's not an inferior repaint. Even still it's a bargaining chip that can get you the car for cheaper than list. It's not something that'll hamper you from driving it. You could roll with it as is and save up for a proper bumper repaint. Of course, do your due diligence as I've warned in my other posts, but good luck. I'm glad to see you come full circle, as the cars that followed your last Firebird obviously never filled the arrowhead-shaped hole inside you.

[Blake Noble]

Thanks, Z.

For curiousity's sake, I'm going to check out that '99 Trans Am tomorrow. Considering the mileage, it's by far the best deal in my area on one of these cars.

[G. David Felt]

Thanks, Z.

For curiousity's sake, I'm going to check out that '99 Trans Am tomorrow. Considering the mileage, it's by far the best deal in my area on one of these cars.

Keep us updated on what you find out about it. I think it does have far more potential.

[A Horse With No Name]

This keeps getting interesting....

[Blake Noble]

The dealer sold the black '99 on Saturday. There's not much else out there in the way of a T/A at the moment that's reasonably priced and low mileage, however there is this.

[ocnblu]

Hey that's a nice one

[Blake Noble]

It's about $1,000 too much considering it has almost 90,000 miles, but hey. I'll call tomorrow after class and see if they still have it and I may even lay some of the framework down to take it home (mainly insurance quotes and maybe financing). The only problem I see is this: before I buy this next car, I will have to insist that I can take it home for a day before I buy it to have it checked out by another former Pontiac dealer and a reputable body shop. That particular dealer is roughly 70 miles away. I certainly can see them giving me some grief here.

Edited November 30, 2012 by black-knight

[G. David Felt]

Very nice, though I am always surprised by the amount of dirt people get in a car. The buttons on the steering wheel sure could use a cleaning. Must have very dirty hands.

[Blake Noble]

I drove the '02 Formula tonight. It seems to be solid and completely in order.

We'll see what happens this week.

[A Horse With No Name]

Good luck!

[Robert Hall]

Whatever became of the Astra?

[Blake Noble]

If everything works out, you'll know soon enough.

[G. David Felt]

If everything works out, you'll know soon enough.

:deathwatch:

[Drew Dowdell]

no updates?

[Blake Noble]

Well, I'm re-evaluating my options at the moment. Someone bought the '02 Formula before I could get back to it and finding another low-mileage fourth-gen Firebird has been extremely difficult. I've been looking to GTOs and a few fire-sale priced G8s and Challengers as acceptable alternatives.

The holiday season has also dampened any serious interest in buying the Camaro, so that has slowed down my search as a result. I've had text messages and phone calls coming in at a decent pace since I listed and subsequently re-listed it, and I've been offered a few decent trades (some even worth more than my asking price) that I ultimately turned down, but no one has showed up with the money yet. I think once the holiday season has passed, someone will come along and buy the car. A project car with a dismantled interior isn't exactly an ideal Christmas present to most folks, I guess.

It's all just a matter of time at this point. I'm not looking to rush into anything anyway. I honestly rushed into the Astra, so I consider the end result there a hard lesson learned. I know what I want and I'll hold out as long as I can stand to get it. Everything will work out in the near future, it's just going to take some devotion and patience.

Edited December 25, 2012 by black-knight

[Blake Noble]

The Camaro's gone and I made a tidy $500 dollar profit on it to boot.

Now on to bigger and better things.

Edited January 14, 2013 by black-knight

[G. David Felt]

The Camaro's gone and I made a tidy $500 dollar profit on it to boot.

Now on to bigger and better things.

We'll Done, now to see what you do next!

[Blake Noble]

I've hit a brick wall and I have to vent about it.

There isn't a single low-mileage Trans Am to be had right now and banks stopped loaning money for vehicles that old this month, and my alternative options are also getting hard to come by — not a single reasonable GTO is out there, there isn't a G8 to speak of, and all of the fire-sale Challengers are, in reality, beyond my reach. I can't even find a decent 2005 to 2007 Mustang GT right now.

I don't know what I'm going to do. I keep thinking to myself if I missed a car that would be an acceptable option, but I know I haven't. There really isn't anything I can put myself behind the wheel of. Then there's the Astra that, sparing the details, has sped up its process of further degrading through the process of being driven on a daily basis.

I do know I'm tired of going through this on a yearly basis. It has to come to an end.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I've hit a brick wall and I have to vent about it.<br />

<br />

There isn't a single low-mileage Trans Am to be had right now and banks stopped loaning money for vehicles that old this month, and my alternative options are also getting hard to come by not a single reasonable GTO is out there, there isn't a G8 to speak of, and all of the fire-sale Challengers are, in reality, beyond my reach. I can't even find a decent 2005 to 2007 Mustang GT right now.<br />

<br />

I don't know what I'm going to do. I keep thinking to myself if I missed a car that would be an acceptable option, but I know I haven't. There really isn't anything I can put myself behind the wheel of. Then there's the Astra that, sparing the details, has sped up its process of further degrading through the process of being driven on a daily basis.<br />

<br />

I do know I'm tired of going through this on a yearly basis. It has to come to an end.

Not to come in here and give you hollow reinforcement, but keep on digging!

I literally looked at F4 Trans Ams, and then GTOs, for years. Of course, I've always been one of those people who browses Auto Trader and trade papers on a regular basis (So much so that my fiancé likens me to Joe Dirt)

Anyway, my point is: I know it's frustrating, but you'll find something.

What exactly are you looking for?

I'd say the best place to find an F2 would be craigslist/trade papers (when factoring in price)

As far as F4 Trans Ams go, that was one of my dream cars. But really nice examples are becoming really scarce and, as you said, good luck getting a bank to finance something that old. Those are two of the main reasons I started looking at GTOs.

As far as GTOs go, I found the best cars at www.ls1gto.com These people are really passionate about the car, and offered NICER cars than dealers I found for BETTER prices.

Edited January 21, 2013 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[G. David Felt]

I would suggest you post 2 or 3 cars with the options you would like and let the Cheers and Gears family search the US for you. We just might find that gold nugget you want.

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/searchresults.xhtml?endYear=2014&zip=98043&listingType=used&listingTypes=used&sellerTypes=b&mmt=[PONT[GTO[]][]]&modelCode1=GTO&sortBy=derivedpriceASC&makeCode1=PONT&startYear=2000&showcaseOwnerId=0&searchRadius=0&bodyStyleCodes=COUPE&firstRecord=1&numRecords=100

Did this search for GTO on autotrader and come up with some nice rides.

[Blake Noble]

Not to come in here and give you hollow reinforcement, but keep on digging!

I literally looked at F4 Trans Ams, and then GTOs, for years. Of course, I've always been one of those people who browses Auto Trader and trade papers on a regular basis (So much so that my fiancé likens me to Joe Dirt).

Anyway, my point is: I know it's frustrating, but you'll find something.

You're good, FOG. I appreciate the kind words.

I guess what really kills me about the whole process this time around is that, after taking a good long while to reflect on it, I realize that I've had a multitude of opportunities to own what I really want and, stupidly, always backed away. For example, before I bought the Astra, I had the chance to buy a very nice 2004 GTO in Cosmos Purple with just 50,000 odd miles for about the same price. Before I bought the Challenger, I could have had another 2004 GTO in Phantom Black with just 40,000 miles on the odometer and I honestly believe if I bought that car, I wouldn't have had to go down the road I'm on now.

I don't know why I backed away from the both of them. Maybe I was worried that I would get stuck with another dog of a used car, which was for naught. I'm driving a dog right now. Or maybe I was worried about paying for the gas. I honestly don't know, I just know that I'm kicking my ass over it.

What exactly are you looking for?

Let's see ...

• A late model fourth-gen T/A or Formula with under 75,000 miles.
  
• Any GTO with under 75,000 miles in any color except Yellow Jacket ( ... huh) or Torrid Red.
  
• A G8 with under 75,000 miles and as cheap as possible. I found one with an asking price of $15 grand, so it's possible. I'm less hung up about having the V8 here for some reason.
  
• A 2005 to 2009 Mustang GT. Same mileage rules apply.
  
• A 2006 to 2010 Charger R/T. Same mileage rules apply.
  
• A 2005 to 2008 Magnum R/T. Same mileage rules apply.
  

That's about it really. I know those cars are in budget because I've seen plenty of them come and go with less than 75,000 miles for about $13,000 give or take. Having a manual transmission over an automatic is preferred with the few cars listed above that offer one, and it's the only way I'd buy the Mustang.

I'd say the best place to find an F2 would be craigslist/trade papers (when factoring in price)

That's true, but after the last go-round that I detailed in this thread, I think I'm going to quit barking up that tree. The later F2 cars are now much more sought after now than, say, when I was a senior in high school. A decent one is at least going to bring an average of $4,000 bucks in my area and it would require a minimum of another $4,000 dollars to make it decent enough to drive on a daily basis. Realistically, it isn't in the cards any more.

As far as F4 Trans Ams go, that was one of my dream cars. But really nice examples are becoming really scarce and, as you said, good luck getting a bank to finance something that old. Those are two of the main reasons I started looking at GTOs.

As far as GTOs go, I found the best cars at www.ls1gto.com These people are really passionate about the car, and offered NICER cars than dealers I found for BETTER prices.

Thanks for the nice resource, man. I'll keep it handy and keep my eyes peeled. There's a really awesome 2004 GTO in the southern IL/IN area on there now with a Monaro conversion for $13k, but 113,000 miles kills the deal for me.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Late model F2s are one of the fastest growing collector car segments in the market right now. At my place of employment, we consistently move Special Edition, Anniversary and Turbo cars for big money... It really amazes me how popular these cars are becoming.

[GMTruckGuy74]

Late model F2s are one of the fastest growing collector car segments in the market right now. At my place of employment, we consistently move Special Edition, Anniversary and Turbo cars for big money... It really amazes me how popular these cars are becoming.

Sorry to your thread, black-knight, but I want to ask FOG something based off of his comment above. What are you seeing, if anything, with the '73-'79/'80 and '85-'87 GM fullsize pickups? I know the '67-'72 models are now reaching higher selling/transaction prices, but I'm curious as to your perspective on the "square body" pickups.

black-knight, to go back on topic, have you considered a pickup truck? Regular cab, 2WD, V8 (not manual trans though, at least not from GM). You could go all out and make it sporty looking. I know trucks aren't for everyone, but just askin'.

[Blake Noble]

I would suggest you post 2 or 3 cars with the options you would like and let the Cheers and Gears family search the US for you. We just might find that gold nugget you want.

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/searchresults.xhtml?endYear=2014&zip=98043&listingType=used&listingTypes=used&sellerTypes=b&mmt=[PONT[GTO[]][]]&modelCode1=GTO&sortBy=derivedpriceASC&makeCode1=PONT&startYear=2000&showcaseOwnerId=0&searchRadius=0&bodyStyleCodes=COUPE&firstRecord=1&numRecords=100

Did this search for GTO on autotrader and come up with some nice rides.

There was a very nice GTO down in Nashville with roughly 50k on the clock for $12,995 that would have been absolutely perfect, and I have a weekend off coming up that would've allowed me to make a nice trip to go down there and get, but ... it's gone. Sold. The search goes on.

Late model F2s are one of the fastest growing collector car segments in the market right now. At my place of employment, we consistently move Special Edition, Anniversary and Turbo cars for big money... It really amazes me how popular these cars are becoming.

I sort of knew it was coming sooner rather than later back in high school. It was part of the reason why I had such an obsessive drive to buy a late '70s F2 T/A all of these years. I wanted to get my foot through the door and buy one before they started commanding big prices because I knew that finding solid, running and driving T/As for less than $2,000 dollars would be almost impossible in the near future after graduating then, and after that happened it would become that dreaded "mid-life crisis" car.

Alas, here we are now. Oh well. Here's to male pattern baldness, erectile dysfunction, 401k's, and black Trans Ams. Buhhhh. How goddamn lame. I really don't want to live past 40 now.

Late model F2s are one of the fastest growing collector car segments in the market right now. At my place of employment, we consistently move Special Edition, Anniversary and Turbo cars for big money... It really amazes me how popular these cars are becoming.

Sorry to your thread, black-knight, but I want to ask FOG something based off of his comment above. What are you seeing, if anything, with the '73-'79/'80 and '85-'87 GM fullsize pickups? I know the '67-'72 models are now reaching higher selling/transaction prices, but I'm curious as to your perspective on the "square body" pickups.

black-knight, to go back on topic, have you considered a pickup truck? Regular cab, 2WD, V8 (not manual trans though, at least not from GM). You could go all out and make it sporty looking. I know trucks aren't for everyone, but just askin'.

I want FOG to answer your question, but I'll throw my two cents into the cup just to keep the question raised in the meantime. Based on what I'm seeing just by browsing the various resources I check, the earlier trucks are starting to see a slight upward tick in prices if they're pretty clean and solid, but the later you go in years, nothing much has really changed. You can still snap up a mid-80s Sierra or Silverado for about $2,000 to $2,500 where I'm at with minimal rust and in decent running order. I think you'll be okay for the next few short years before you start seeing a definite upward swing in prices.

Honestly, I've thought about buying a GMT-900 Sierra/Silverado or a used Ram Express (they're actually quite cheap if you run into one with 50k on the odometer) and window shopped quite a few of them. I know the GMT-900 would be reliable as a pair of old boots and the Ram would be excellent on gas (dad's managed to see mid to high 20s out of his on the highway). I'm gun-shy about a full-sized truck, though, because I've never had to really live with one on a daily basis and I've never found myself in a situation where I needed the utility that one would offer versus what a car would offer.

I also have slightly mixed feelings about "sport trucks" as well. I really hate guys who buy Silverados and S10s and drop them to have the same ride-height as a passenger car and do really stupid body mods that hinder how they function as a truck. I always wonder why they just didn't buy a car to begin with because what you have at that point is something just ... horrible to live with, basically a physically incompetent two-seater coupe with an enclosed patio out back. I don't mean that to be offensive to anyone on here who likes trucks like that, but it can get to a point where it's just really not for me.

I won't put either truck off of the table. A decent Wrangler is also hanging out with the two of them on that list as well, just in case this does become more of a "prowess over performance" sort of question.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Late model F2s are one of the fastest growing collector car segments in the market right now. At my place of employment, we consistently move Special Edition, Anniversary and Turbo cars for big money... It really amazes me how popular these cars are becoming.

Sorry to your thread, black-knight, but I want to ask FOG something based off of his comment above. What are you seeing, if anything, with the '73-'79/'80 and '85-'87 GM fullsize pickups? I know the '67-'72 models are now reaching higher selling/transaction prices, but I'm curious as to your perspective on the "square body" pickups.

black-knight, to go back on topic, have you considered a pickup truck? Regular cab, 2WD, V8 (not manual trans though, at least not from GM). You could go all out and make it sporty looking. I know trucks aren't for everyone, but just askin'.

I typed a response to this a few days ago, but my stupid iPhone deleted it.

I'm pretty hesitant to answer the question because I'm no expert, but I don't think we'll ever see that generation of truck bring big prices.

Like all aging cars, I think they'll see a gradual increase in price. But their exclusivity and popularity simply doesn't favor an investment situation.

1) At the end of the day, it's still a truck. I really hate that mindset and I think it sells a lot of great classics short, but most car snobs hold that opinion.

2) We don't even sell that many deep-70s C3 Corvettes (or for that matter rarities like Cosworth Vegas) for big money (relative to the market we sell in) Unfortunately, the mid-to-late 70s is stereotyped as a 'historically bad' time for cars.

3) The F2 Trans Am is CERTAINLY an exception to those rules.

I think it's an exception for three reasons 1) It's obvious aesthetic ties to the real muscle car era. People LOVE outrageous looking Trans Ams because "that's the way a Trans Am is supposed to look". 2) Pontiac's dogged dedication to keeping the Trans Am a performance car above all else. Think about it, you could get a 455 T/A all the way through 1976. And 3) and most importantly: pop culture. The F2's place at the pinnacle of 70s pop culture is absolutely key to its newfound popularity. People have fond memories of these cars, and the youth they enjoyed with them.

If you want an expert opinion on the subject, go to www. myclassicgarage.com and "Ask an Expert" Joe Carroll, the CEO of our company, will be happy to answer any question. (SHAMELESS PLUG: We essentially operate under four brands: RK Motors Charlotte, RKM Performance Center, My Classic Garage and the soon to be launched RKM Collector Car Auctions)

black-knight: The MCG marketplace might be a good place to find a decent F2 as well.

Edited January 25, 2013 by FUTURE_OF_GM