Should GM build a "Premium" version of the LT1 for Cadillac?

[dado]

There is supercharger whine heard in cts-v. And that is a lsa engine. Nobody said it is loud. But you can hear it.

Right and if you try really hard you can hear the turbocharger whistle in ANY turbocharged car. So, you point is?

There is a reason why the LSA (14/19 MPG -- Camaro ZL1) has notably worse fuel economy numbers compared to the LS3 (16/24 -- Camaro SS). I am citing Camaro numbers for a fairer and more accurate comparison since we are comparing engines not chassis weight and aerodynamics.

Point is you don't have to try really hard on CTS-V. In most articles i've read about CTS-v there was observations made about supercharger noise(i assume that is only when you are accelerating with pedal to he floor).Now this is all good and welcome for type of car CTS-V is...but for premium product like something that will go against new s class, audi s8, new maserati quattoporte,porsche panamera or BMW 7. I'm not sure it is acceptable..yes you can hear an engine roaring when you put pedal to the medal..but i'm not sure you can also hear turbochargers spinning. Maybe tested cts-V had problems with superchargers.I've read some CTS-V owners did have some noise problems with their CTS-V and GM change supercharger on their cars. I must admit i'm not big fan of german's product and i don't read test about them as much as i read about Cadillac cars so maybe you can hear turbochargers whine..but i doubt it.

And if you want to compare engines..well there are certain criterias that are only specific to an engines..power (power curve) torque (torque curve) weight, size, specific fuel consumption, price, complexity...etc.etc. I am curious to see how would your LT1 "premium" engine compared to engine from mercedes audi, and bmw. As i see it is already falling behind in criteria of power, torque, weight if you take M157 engine for comparison.

Edited November 10, 2012 by dado

[smk4565]

Because the LTS is a completely different kind of car.... and you can get the AMG63 in C, E, and S sizes.... so if Benz can do it, why can't Cadillac?

I think it's basically because GM doesn't want to do it; there appears to be no long-term drive except to cater to the ATS/CTS/Escalade crowd... It's a management option to go the way they've gone at it for the last 10 years, but an option without any major opportunity for the Cadillac brand to really restablish itself as a world-class reference.

The fact is till they get the ATS and CTS best in class why would anyone pony up big money on a LTS?

BMW was built pretty much from the 3 series up. They earned a rep on the lower priced cars and then expeanded it and moved the customers up that could afford it. Today Cadillac has the ATS almost there with only a need for some better engines. The new CTS also should prove to be class leading or right at that point. Once the public gets a good feel for these cars the LTS will be ready to be set upon the market.

People will risk $40K on an ATS to see how they like it but few will risk $70-100K on a LTS only to find it not of their liking. Please them with the ATS and CTS beyond the others in the market and they will be willing to take the plung on the LTS. The key though is it much not just be a expensive and more expensive Super Sport sedan.

BMW took that approach, maybe Audi is to a degree even though the A8 has been around a long time. But Lexus and Mercedes mostly went the other way, top-down. At least Mercedes built the reputation off their top end cars. The thing is luxury cars need image to sell, Infiniti made a really good G37 and M37 and where are they? No flagship, no credibility. The Mercedes C-class is a hot seller because of the work the S-class did over the past 40 years.

I agree you need to get the ATS and CTS right first, but really quickly after they need a legit flagship car or halo product, and not another XLR or Allante, but something that gets global respect.

[hyperv6]

Benz built their image near 100 years ago from the bottom up. This gives them options.

Lexus is just a luxury car for people that can't buy something other than from Japan.

[smk4565]

Benz built their image near 100 years ago from the bottom up. This gives them options.

Lexus is just a luxury car for people that can't buy something other than from Japan.

Daimler-Benz invented the car, so I guess their image was built from the beginning. But the SL roadsters and S-class and 600 Grosser of the 60's, 70's and even 80's is what cemented the reputation. Cadillac has been around over 100 years too, this isn't some new upstart, either step up or be Lincoln and Acura and wait to die.

[hyperv6]

To be honest Benz image and rep was cemented in the 20's and 30's with their high end cars used by the rich, famous and politcally connected.

These models today rival the Rolls and Dusenbergs of the era. Some are the most valuable today.

[ZL-1]

The fact is till they get the ATS and CTS best in class why would anyone pony up big money on a LTS?

BMW was built pretty much from the 3 series up. They earned a rep on the lower priced cars and then expeanded it and moved the customers up that could afford it. Today Cadillac has the ATS almost there with only a need for some better engines. The new CTS also should prove to be class leading or right at that point. Once the public gets a good feel for these cars the LTS will be ready to be set upon the market.

People will risk $40K on an ATS to see how they like it but few will risk $70-100K on a LTS only to find it not of their liking. Please them with the ATS and CTS beyond the others in the market and they will be willing to take the plung on the LTS. The key though is it much not just be a expensive and more expensive Super Sport sedan.

Cadillac has a HUGE image problem outside of the US... They need something American, in some ways they need the car version of the Escalade (i.e., something no one will mistake for anything else)... They also need PR, to have a good dealer network and a few other BIG issues... For the US market I would tend to agree with you, but this LTS flagship should be seen as an investment in the brand and not as a stand-alone project wit its own NPV/IRR... IMHO

[hyperv6]

GM has work to do here and they are doing it. As for Europe they have so much to do it is crazy. The first key is to get the dealer network up and 5 star rated in service. They have a lot to make up for there and good customer relations and service will help them stand out.

The LTS will be an investment for them but they have to earn the trust of the buyers with the lesser cars. Hyundai tried to to offer an expensive car in their line with mixed result.

The fact is GM and Cadillac need to earn peoples trust before they will spend the kind of money they have to spend for a LTS. Too many have been burned on past Cadillacs that had no resale from the high price they paid.

Rigth now the CTS and ATS is earning trust and will push over to the LTS. The XTS is just a lost leader for the professional market and traditional owner.

The styling is right as there is nothing else that looks like any of the Cadillacs. Also the Suspensions now are world class as the Magnetic ride systems are class leading.

I am just affraid the LTS will have the same effect as the ATS has now. Great car in search of a better engine. Not that the V6 and Turbo 4 are bad but they are just not as good or as well liked as others in the same class. I wish GM could put more effort into the Cadillac engines. Even if they are based on the rest of the line do something more and better to take them to the next level.

The last thing we need is the LTS to be a modern day Mark II.

[smk4565]

People will risk $40K on an ATS to see how they like it but few will risk $70-100K on a LTS only to find it not of their liking. Please them with the ATS and CTS beyond the others in the market and they will be willing to take the plung on the LTS. The key though is it much not just be a expensive and more expensive Super Sport sedan.

Why do they have to "risk" money on an ATS or any Cadillac? People aren't risking money on a 3-series, they know what they are getting and they line up to buy them. Plus, the people that would be in the market for the LTS aren't looking at an ATS or 3-series type of car. The types that spend $100k on a big executive sedan aren't looking for nimble handling, they want an isolation chamber to be chauffeured around in. So I don't see the harm in launching both at the same time, they aren't going after the same market. And you don't prove yourself in the entry level, you prove yourself in the big leagues.

[hyperv6]

Sorry but you have missed the mark all together on wh is going to buy this car.

$100K only buys you a up market luxury car for a company manager not a owner unless he is smart with his money. We are not talking Rolls or Bently here. These cars are still going to be owner driven 99% of tje time.

Where the risk is involved are for non GM owners and buyers who know if they buy the BMW it will hold it's resale to some other idiot who is willing to pay more for a BMW.

Where Cadillac make inroads is the guy buys his wife a CTS they drive for running around town and if he is happy with the experience he will see value and trust in the LTS. But if Cadillac does not win the owners loyalty on a CTS how are they ever going get him or her to look at the LTS.

I also know the SUV have been a profit point but Cadillac is finally going more understated and less a pimp mobile with the large SUV's. I am hoping they give them a more sporting edge like the Euro ones too. While they are not sports cars the sporting flair to them looks to be a hot point with buyers. If they do this I think they will only do better with their SUV line already.

Note too the SUV line has done well as many of these owners already had a GMC Yukon already and like a GM truck to start with. THey trust and see value in them.

In this day and age if you can't build a real luxury sports sedan in the $50K plus range why should I trust you with twice that much? Better to take a sure thing with the BMW or Benz [in their eyes].

Hyundai was a little premature with the Equuis sedan and has struggled with this line. They will stay the couarse and are earning trust with the lesser lines that will lead to the upper line making it in time but like I just said it will take time.

While most of us here know Cadillac well and how far they came to many they are still the Cimarron and Catera division and hardly one step ahead of Lincoln. GM has converted many minds but there are still many to convert. The new ATS is only the first car that is on a even playing field to the critics and I expect the CTS to follow. These cars will get people into the dealers who never would have come in before. These are the products that again will put a new face and image on Cadillac.

The only real thing is they needs to still work on the engines a little more. I would like to see them take the engine one step above the rest of the GM line in NHV, tuning and power. They must not be the same thing that is in my HHR SS or Malubu. They can be based on it but they needs to be somehting more.

[NeonLX]

Also more important question is will GM be able to show this premium v8 as genuine Cadillac engine and not something which is shared with cheaper cars and trucks.

Heh. Paint the air cleaner and valve covers gold or sump'n'.

Edited November 13, 2012 by NeonLX

[hyperv6]

That is the least they could do.

[G. David Felt]

Also more important question is will GM be able to show this premium v8 as genuine Cadillac engine and not something which is shared with cheaper cars and trucks.

Heh. Paint the air cleaner and valve covers gold or sump'n'.

Just cover it in Carbon Fiber with Gold Emblems and it is taken care of. When was the last time a 1/10th of 1% rich person ever took their MB S series plastic engine covers off and said OMG, that is the same engine from the E series. Return it!

[Lamar]

dfelt, you had me at:

When was the last time a 1/10th of 1% rich person ever took their MB S series plastic engine covers off

My apologies for being days late on this one, SMK, but I had to respond:

Thing is, notice that the M3 V8 isn't used in a 5-series,

Not directly, no... it was the previous-gen M5's V10 with two cylinders lopped off. So I guess this was a top-down loan.

the M5 V8 not used in the 7-series,

Essentially, it is, but with different manifolds and twin-scroll turbos.

the C63 AMG engine not found in an S-class, etc.

Until the S-Class went to the 5.5TT for the S63 a couple of years ago, yes it was.

Edited November 14, 2012 by Lamar