Early Stages of Decline

[Ravenfreak13]

ALthough in the Autoblog, they were saying that toyotas quality is declining...

Funny Story- I was in French class and one of the sentances were "American cars are equally economical as Japanese cars" and a girl syas "DOnt we get our cars from Japan?" ans d the teacher said "Not all of them."

[Camino LS6]

ALthough in the Autoblog, they were saying that toyotas quality is declining...

Funny Story- I was in French class and one of the sentances were "American cars are equally economical as Japanese cars" and a girl syas "DOnt we get our cars from Japan?" ans d the teacher said "Not all of them."

That's just sad.

[Robert Hall]

ALthough in the Autoblog, they were saying that toyotas quality is declining...

Funny Story- I was in French class and one of the sentances were "American cars are equally economical as Japanese cars" and a girl syas "DOnt we get our cars from Japan?" ans d the teacher said "Not all of them."

True 'nuff..many Japanese cars are built in the US.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

I hope Toyota falls down with a mighty thud. I'm pretty sick of them raping the American car buyer in the ass. I mean, it's sad. Toyota feeds the Average Joe lies and they believe it. But, if the later proves anything, it does prove American stupidity and ignorance is alive and well for those who don't bother to seek the truth.

Toyota cars have all the soul of a Hamilton Beach food processor.

And lets not forget where the styling of Toyota cars are going: straight down the toilet. Look at the FJ Cruiser. It's crap. When a few friends of mine actually managed to see this rolling travesty at an intersection, the first expression was a non-positive "What the f@#k?"

The FJ is Toyota's attempt at retro, for those who are blind, and it arrives at a failed status. When Detroit does retro, it works. There is a gold mine of great styling cues that worked wonderfully together in the historic past of Chevy, Ford, Dodge, and others. Detroit has a solid past to draw from, if it so wishes to do so. Japan doesn't and when it looks to the past it doesn't work, save for maybe the Nissan GT-R Proto concept from the '05 Tokyo auto show (although most of the cues come from recent models dating to the '80s).

The other designs of cars in Toyota's line, which I am including Lexus here, are all the result of rip-licated, plagarized, Rebangleized BMW Bangle cues that work to results ranging to mediocre to just plain offensive.

Quality is going down the tubes, too, let's not forget. Someone name a GM product from the past 10 years (from '96 to '06) that has had a major transmission recall. I can't think of one. Right now, I think GM can say it has a solid powertrain portfolio, although a few powerplants and transmissions are maybe a little old. Truth is, at some point, if you want quanity, you're going to have to give up quality. Just ask Dell.

I think Toyota is so focused on overtaking GM's spot at number one, they're losing focus on making decent cars. And I hope that focus goes very blurry, which it will. But it will probably take time.

Edited May 7, 2006 by YellowJacket894

[The O.C.]

Look at GM's large SUV turnover days. Ranging from a week to 20 days. Now, how are those large Toyota and Lexus SUV's doing...probably better. Right? WRONG. They are around 34.

A 34-day turn is nothing to sneeze at....in fact it's still downright impressive......60 days is usually the target in this industry.

[The O.C.]

Let's face it:  Toyota doesn't build any "gotta have" products either. 

LOL.....wrong-o.....

For a vast number of consumers out there in the marketplace, many of Toyota's models are totally "gotta have."

Camry's overall sales success says it....

I know many Toyota truck and SUV owners that would have nothing else....

Lexus buyers would surely argue with you that their cars and trucks were "gotta have" for them....

[The O.C.]

Well, if GM can catch up with in 3 years, they will be fine...I mean look at what happend in one+ year! They revamped a whole division(saturn). GM reworked their trucks and got great reviews on interior quality and now they need to revamp their small car division...I think 3 years is plenty. As for minivans....well....who knows...

Go read my post under "C&G Feature Articles" about a David E. Davis Jr. column he wrote back in October, 1988.....

GM has had 18 years to "catch up" and they STILL haven't turned the corner....you think anything will change with them in the next three years?

[The O.C.]

The W-body has recieved a new platform twice since it's introduction, it is not an '80s platform. If you say GM has been producing W-bodies since the '80s, well you have to know Toyota has been producing E-bodies (Corolla, Sprinter, Matrix etc) since 1966, V-bodies (Camry, Vista, ES-Series) since the early 80's, the S-body (Crown, GS-Series) since 1955, the J-body Toyota truck has been around since 1951, the T-body (Corona, Carina, Allion, Avensis, tC etc.) since 1957, and the P-body (Publica, Starlet, Echo, Yaris) has been produced since 1961. Like the W-body these are like the proverbial axe - over the years it may have recieved 5 new handles and a new head, but it's still the "same axe".

The W-body/GM-10 BASIC architecture is the SAME as it was when it was introduced in 1988......

........the current Corolla and Camry architectures are significantly different than their predecessors.....

[Camino LS6]

Go read my post under "C&G Feature Articles" about a David E. Davis Jr. column he wrote back in October, 1988.....

GM has had 18 years to "catch up" and they STILL haven't turned the corner....you think anything will change with them in the next three years?

I think theyhave turned the corner and much will change in the next three years. The "bright spots" will be driving back the dark clouds at a rapid pace by then.

[The O.C.]

Wouldn't you rather beat them at their own game, or god forbid, create superior product?

The sentiment expressed perfectly illustrates what makes this site so frustrating....I sense people here are rooting for competitors' failure rather than providing insight into GM's anticipated success...and that's the attitude that pervades every thread...(And I don't mean to pick on 68, but philosophically, I've got an issue with hoping the next guy loses rather than planning for my own victory, or at least providing a roadmap for it.)

Couldn't have said it better myself. I feel the same way about GM versus it's competitiors.

I WANT Toyota, BMW, Honda, and others to CONTINUE to improve their products....for a car enthusiast, that makes life much more fun....and makes the industry WAY more interesting to watch.

At the same time, I'd like GM to be able to get IN THE HUNT and compete mano-a-mano with each of those guys with competitive or superior products....

[Camino LS6]

LOL.....wrong-o.....

For a vast number of consumers out there in the marketplace, many of Toyota's models are totally "gotta have."

Camry's overall sales success says it....

I know many Toyota truck and SUV owners that would have nothing else....

Lexus buyers would surely argue with you that their cars and trucks were "gotta have" for them....

I think you have stretched the definition of "gotta have" a bit far here. These vehicles are mostly "gotta have" only in the way a good washing machine is "gotta have". The designs are conservative and bland, nothing exciting, which "gotta have " implies.

[The O.C.]

HOWEVER, do you feel the marketplace

is a level playing field for GM & Toyota?

I think tey fight dirty, and I'd rahter not

see GM stoop to their level but in the

end I want GM to succed by any & all

means neccersary.

We won't REALLY know if the marketplace is a level playing field until GM has a lineup of cars and trucks that, in total, are truly competitive with the class leaders.

They don't have that now.

[The O.C.]

The Solstice has done that, but unfortuneately, it's a low volume car.

Not really.....Mazda did it with the original Miata.

That's what Enzl means.....give the marketplace a Chrysler minivan, Ford Mustang, or original Mazda Miata.....

[evok]

I think you have stretched the definition of "gotta have" a bit far here. These vehicles are mostly "gotta have" only in the way a good washing machine is "gotta have". The designs are conservative and bland, nothing exciting, which "gotta have " implies.

No his definition is valid, accurate and to the point.

[evok]

I think theyhave turned the corner and much will change in the next three years. The "bright spots" will be driving back the dark clouds at a rapid pace by then.

Yea - David E. Davis Jr. said the same thing 18 years ago. I think I did to. We were both wrong.

[evok]

You're right to a large degree.

HOWEVER, do you feel the marketplace

is a level playing field for GM & Toyota?

I think tey fight dirty, and I'd rahter not

see GM stoop to their level but in the

end I want GM to succed by any & all

means neccersary.

Like I said in another thread our fantasy

lineup of Zeta cars will go a LONG way to

help GM return to profitability.

Level playing field? Zero % and GMS for all. It goes both ways.

[Camino LS6]

No his definition is valid, accurate and to the point.

No, his definition is new, inaccurate, and muddies the waters. "Gotta have" is eye-popping, exciting, design that moves a buyer toward a purchase based on emotion, not CR-like comparison shopping and reliance on perceived quality. Toyota has no such designs.

[Camino LS6]

Yea - David E. Davis Jr. said the same thing 18 years ago.  I think I did to.  We were both wrong.

And, perhaps, you are wrong again.

[evok]

No, his definition is new, inaccurate, and muddies the waters. "Gotta have" is eye-popping, exciting, design that moves a buyer toward a purchase based on emotion, not CR-like comparison shopping and reliance on perceived quality. Toyota has no such designs.

"Gotta Have" = sales. Suffice it to say - Toyota is "Gotta Have" Just look at the sales and see who is up and who is down.

Don't confuse your opinion with the data. Many people would say the same thing about GM's designs.

And will also add, Toyota found religion and their new product including the 07 Camry are not washing machines anymore.

[evok]

And, perhaps, you are wrong again.

HUH - How can I be wrong when I did not say anything?

[Camino LS6]

"Gotta Have" = sales.  Suffice it to say - Toyota is "Gotta Have"  Just look at the sales and see who is up and who is down.

Don't confuse your opinion with the data.  Many people would say the same thing about GM's designs.

And will also add, Toyota found religion and their new product including the 07 Camry are not washing machines anymore.

C'mon man, you know as well as I do that "Gotta have" as uttered by Lutz referred to design eliciting an emotional response. Camry and such will never qualify. "Gotta have" = wow factor.

Yes, I still see Maytags at Toyota and nothing more.

[Camino LS6]

HUH - How can I be wrong when I did not say anything?

See your above post in which you said that both DED and yourself were wrong 18 years ago, thus my response.

[Satty]

"Wow factor" is subjective, sales numbers are not. I would say that the SSR had "wow factor" with the hardtop and very eye catching design, plus some real power at the end, but the sales didn't back that up, and I dont think that the SSR brought people into Chevy dealerships who ended up getting Impalas, etc.

[Camino LS6]

"Wow factor" is subjective, sales numbers are not.  I would say that the SSR had "wow factor" with the hardtop and very eye catching design, plus some real power at the end, but the sales didn't back that up, and I dont think that the SSR brought people into Chevy dealerships who ended up getting Impalas, etc.

Exactly my point: "Gotta have"="Wow factor"

Sales numbers are not in dispute here.

[Camino LS6]

Just to clarify:

"Gotta Have" cars

Ford GT

Viper

Mustang

Solstice

Sky

Mini

WRX

Corvette

Lotus Elise

Challenger(showcar)

Camaro(showcar)

Charger(99 showcar)

Jaguar XK8 (at debut)

Escalade

M3

M5

SL500

Ferrari (most models)

Aston Martin(all models)

PT Cruiser(at debut)

[evok]

See your above post in which you said that both DED and yourself were wrong 18 years ago, thus my response.

I wrote about something I said/thought/wrote 18+years ago and stated I was wrong. If as you state I will be wrong again. That would make me correct which is not possible.

[evok]

Just to clarify:

"Gotta Have" cars

Ford GT

Viper

Mustang

Solstice

Sky

Mini

WRX

Corvette

Lotus Elise

Challenger(showcar)

Camaro(showcar)

Charger(99 showcar)

Jaguar XK8 (at debut)

Escalade

M3

M5

SL500

Ferrari (most models)

Aston Martin(all models)

PT Cruiser(at debut)

And that total volume in "Gotta Have" sales is app. 300k in a 17mil US market.

[evok]

"Wow factor" is subjective, sales numbers are not.  I would say that the SSR had "wow factor" with the hardtop and very eye catching design, plus some real power at the end, but the sales didn't back that up, and I dont think that the SSR brought people into Chevy dealerships who ended up getting Impalas, etc.

Maybe renting an Impala and buying an Accord.

[Camino LS6]

I wrote about something I said/thought/wrote 18+years ago and stated I was wrong.  If as you state I will be wrong again.  That would make me correct which is not possible.

You've lost me here, you state that you were wrong in the past and I merely said thatperhaps you will be wrong again. Nothing more.

[Camino LS6]

And that total volume in "Gotta Have" sales is app. 300k in a 17mil US market.

So what? That just means all manufacturers have been lax in applying exciting styling to volume models. That doesn't make " I decided to by it because I think that I should" = "gotta have".

[evok]

You've lost me here, you state that you were wrong in the past and I merely said thatperhaps you will be wrong again. Nothing more.

My point in continuing this is that I have not stated anything new to be wrong about!

If I am wrong again (assuming I said what I did 18 years ago), GM is doomed.

Edited May 7, 2006 by evok

[evok]

So what?  That just means all manufacturers have been lax in applying exciting styling to volume models. That doesn't make " I decided to by it because I think that I should" = "gotta have".

Your idea of "Gotta Have" is irrelevant to the larger market.

[Camino LS6]

My point in continuing this is that I have not stated anything new to be wrong about!

If I am wrong again (assuming I said what I did 18 years ago), GM is doomed.

OK, as usual we come at things from completely different perspectives. I see now what you meant.

[Camino LS6]

Your idea of "Gotta Have" is irrelevant to the larger market.

On that, I disagree. However, that's not really the point. "Gotta Have" implies really wanting to buy something, that the product elicits desire, that it is exciting and the potential buyer reacts to it in an emotional way. Toyota purchases are largely based on cold, analytical justifications and reputation for reliability and quality(rightly or not). My main point is that Toyota has shown no capacity for creating designs attract on an emotional level, and that this is a weak point that should be exploited by its competitors. For GM's part, creating cars that have this emotional punch is required as no amount of good reviews and high quality ratings will be able to get the job done alone. GM's cars must not only compete empirically, but also appeal to the emotions and sense of aesthetics. GM needs the "wow factor" just to get out of the gate.

[The O.C.]

Just to clarify:

"Gotta Have" cars

Ford GT

Viper

Mustang

Solstice

Sky

Mini

WRX

Corvette

Lotus Elise

Challenger(showcar)

Camaro(showcar)

Charger(99 showcar)

Jaguar XK8 (at debut)

Escalade

M3

M5

SL500

Ferrari (most models)

Aston Martin(all models)

PT Cruiser(at debut)

By who's opinion?

Yours....?

Opinions like this are entirely subjective (even if I may agree with you on some or most of the above....) that's why I think actual retail performance in the marketplace is a great barometer of "gotta have."

[The O.C.]

Toyota purchases are largely based on cold, analytical justifications and reputation for reliability and quality(rightly or not).

Camino.....that's an ignorant statement for you to make.....unless you have cold, solid, hard facts to support your opinion.....and I know you don't.

It's absurd to think that EVERY Toyota buyer signs the check without any emotional connection to their purchase......that's crazy.....

Just as you think most Toyota buyers are appliance shoppers....there's many of them that would SERIOUSLY question YOUR enthusiasm for many GM products....

[Mr.Krinkle]

id have to agree that gotta have implies a cool factor but then i also believe that if you have a family and need to haul their asses around there are gotta have family type cars.

or if your concern is economy, a gotta have fuel miser.

as far as toyota and style, the two are rarely in the same sentence. in fact, its the plain unassuming looks of the lexus and toyotas that many people aspire to own.

not all, but a good number. they just kind of blend in and dont call attention to themselves. it is the reputation and reliability that sells most of their cars. and thats fine for them, but its really not about looks (or it is but just not in the way that you might think. ie. that es is so bitchin lookin!)

Edited May 8, 2006 by Mr.Krinkle

[Intrepidation]

I see evok's point about his definition of "gotta have" and why he says Toyota has a lot of them. However my (and Camino and the others) deffinition of "gotta have" implies more than being successfuls sales wise just because people think it's the best qualitty (Which, especially in the Camry and Avalon, is not true), or that groups like CR tell them Toyota is the best buy. Our definition of "gotta have" cars are cars that are bold, distinctive, and create a strong emotion towards the buyer/owner. Very few people lust after a Toyota Camry or Avalon because of the power, handling or "style" they have. To that end, I believe a few example of "gotta have" cars are thes three.

Chrysler 300

Dodge Charger

Ford Mustang

They are prime examples of gotta have cars. Not only are they disctive, creative, different, and American in their style, but they have performance and value to back them up. RWD, powerful engine choices (excludng the base 2.7 in the 300 of course). People genuinely love these cars, and not because they are a Toyota, as most people who claim to love Toyotas state as their reason for loving them (most people I've talked to anyway). but because they are cool, different, and unappologetic. And to top it off, they sell very very well. (also the 300 recieved the most awards of any new car in history I believe). That, I believe, is our deffinition of "gotta have"

Edited May 8, 2006 by Dodgefan

[Camino LS6]

Camino.....that's an ignorant statement for you to make.....unless you have cold, solid, hard facts to support your opinion.....and I know you don't.

not ignorant, observant

It's absurd to think that EVERY Toyota buyer signs the check without any emotional connection to their purchase......that's crazy.....

Who said "every purchase" and "without any emotional attachment"? Not me, what I said was "largely based": prove me wrong if you can.

Just as you think most Toyota buyers are appliance shoppers....there's many of them that would SERIOUSLY question YOUR enthusiasm for many GM products....

Not for any GM products I actually own, they are generally only purchased by enthusiasts (with the exception of the Silverado). Also, I don't claim to have ANY enthusiasm for many of GM's products.

[Camino LS6]

By who's opinion?

Yours....?

Opinions like this are entirely subjective (even if I may agree with you on some or most of the above....) that's why I think actual retail performance in the marketplace is a great barometer of "gotta have."

Not opinion, observation. These cars generated "buzz" and enthusiastic articles along with an excited willingness to talk at length about them on the part of their owners. I have seen every one of these cars at local car shows and cruises as new cars. I have yet to see a single new Toyota show -up. When was the last time you heard an owner of a Camry extolling the virtues of his car at a show?

[evok]

evok's deep thoughts on Observations!

When Lutz and Wagoner look out of their office window at the Ren Cen and see 9 out of 10 vehicles on Jefferson are GMs, they smile.

Job well done.

[ZL-1]

evok's deep thoughts on Observations!

When Lutz and Wagoner look out of their office window at the Ren Cen and see 9 out of 10 vehicles on Jefferson are GMs, they smile.

Job well done.

[CARBIZ]

There is a gulf of distance between what enthusiasts on this board would consider "gotta have" and what the average consumer feels are priorities. I think this is the point between OC and Camino.

Toyota's vehicles, like many of GM's, are plain and boring. That isn't a bad thing, just what it takes to dominate the market. If you look at the vehicles that have hit the 400k sales in a single year mark over the past 20 years, I warrant very few (if any) would make it to any of our "gotta have" lists.

Why do "gotta have" vehicles have to be sporty? Chrysler has survived the past 15 years on creating great looking vehicles that average people gotta have. Even though enjoying a more spotty quality history than GM, they have maintained their market share. This is where GM is getting hammered: other than the Corvette, GM doesn't have much that is no the media's "gotta have" list, which them leads the media to dismiss GM before it even gets out of the gate.

Other than glowing reviews for quality, I can't see why anyone would buy a Toyota. There are models from Nissan and Mazda, even Honda, that I would find "gotta have," but not Toyota.

But if I may add this: over the past couple years, based on consumer reactions, GM may finally be going in the right direction. People have actually come into the show room to see the HHR, the Cobalt SS and the Equinox and bought on emotion - something I haven't seen in a long, long while. This is the direction GM needs to go if she is to survive.

[BatmanGTO]

I am in agreement with Camino.... no one looks a a Camry and goes now that is hot sh*t

the only cars that will every get that are top models, exotics, sports cars... which at this point toyota does not have.... and no the celica doesnt count. to underpowered.

at best (me liking a variety of cars).... the only hope for toyota to get that kind of comment will be if/when they bring the supra back. now that car was hot sh*t. and with the rumors going around i really hope to see it in 08'

[balthazar]

Camino LS6 = >>" Toyota purchases are largely based on cold, analytical justifications and reputation for reliability and quality(rightly or not)."<<

The O.C. = >>"Camino.....that's an ignorant statement for you to make.....unless you have cold, solid, hard facts to support your opinion.....and I know you don't."<<

Likewise, in order to call Camino's statement "ignorant", you must have "cold, solid, hard facts" to support your contention: the opposite.

[balthazar]

Camino LS6 = >>" Toyota purchases are largely based on cold, analytical justifications and reputation for reliability and quality(rightly or not)."<<

The O.C. = >>"Camino.....that's an ignorant statement for you to make.....unless you have cold, solid, hard facts to support your opinion.....and I know you don't."<<

Likewise, in order to call Camino's statement "ignorant", you must have "cold, solid, hard facts" to support your contention: the opposite.

[The O.C.]

Camino LS6 = >>" Toyota purchases are largely based on cold, analytical justifications and reputation for reliability and quality(rightly or not)."<<

The O.C. = >>"Camino.....that's an ignorant statement for you to make.....unless you have cold, solid, hard facts to support your opinion.....and I know you don't."<<

Likewise, in order to call Camino's statement "ignorant", you must have "cold, solid, hard facts" to support your contention: the opposite.

Whatever......

I think it's obvious I was responding to a blanket statement he made that he has no way of substantiating.....

[MyerShift]

Even if it doesn't happen yet, Toyota's decline is inevitable.

Nothing can stay at the top forever (supposing it can even get there).

Everything like this goes in a cycle.

[bowtie_dude]

Whatever......

I think it's obvious I was responding to a blanket statement he made that he has no way of substantiating.....

I would have to agree with Camino. Even though the last Camry was trumped in almost every aspect by the Accord, it still outsold it. Toyota sells on name recognition as much, if not more so, than it does just based on the merits of their cars. Take away the Toyota name, and the same vehicle wouldn't sell as well.