Early Stages of Decline

[Ravenfreak13]

Like GM, views of Toyota range from "I love it" to "They are bland and vanilla"...You must admit that Toyota was climbing to the top of the automotive industry leaving domestic companys in the dust. We saw GM's lowest point in recent years but now it seems that they are finally beginning to pick up the pieces of a weathered company. What does this mean for Toyota?....How far in success can one company go before falling straight to the ground?

We can all say that Toyota will probably never hit rockbottom but what happens when the company suffers a downfall...Can it happen soon? Recently, we have seen that GM's newer innovative models are moving up in sales and GM has recorded a lower loss then usual. Toyota is begining to show some decline. How??? you ask. Look at GM's large SUV turnover days. Ranging from a week to 20 days. Now, how are those large Toyota and Lexus SUV's doing...probably better. Right? WRONG. They are around 34. Even look at the average age of buyers of Toyota's. It has gone up about 5 years in only one year. While GM's Pontiac brand has shown age decreasing over the last year.

Is GM any threat to Toyota? Of course. And the threat is Bob Lutz who is helping repair GM and bringing out impressive models and higher quality products. The one thing holding GM back is media and marketing. While Toyota is spending over $150 million on marketing the all new Camry....GM's newest Camry competition, Saturn's Aura, will probably be lucky to get a third of that. It is not to say that Americans can ignore ads and actually do research about various models...It is that most don't...most go by what they hear. And that has to change if GM wants to expose themselves to people again.

As we watch GM and Toyota...We can see that Toyota is in very early stages of a decline. But we have to hope for GM rising to the competition and taking them down.

Good Luck GM!

[Ravenfreak13]

Opinions?

[buyacargetacheck]

Wishful thinking. Toyota is about to add 1-2% in market share alone from the new San Antonio Tundra factory coupled with added Camry production at Subaru's Indiana plant. There's more on tap too. Meanwhile, GM still has too much capacity for its natural demand. If Delphi doesn't strike this summer watch for more GM incentives by year's end. We all know the ending if Delphi does strike.

[sciguy_0504]

The large Toyota SUVs are older and smaller than the GMT900s, too. Pontiac should be next-to-lowest in average buyer age with Saturn taking the lowest spot.

[Variance]

The large Toyota SUVs are older and smaller than the GMT900s, too.

That's basically it.

The Highlander has been largely unchanged (appearance-wise) since 2000 with no replacement in sight.

The 4Runner isn't due for replacement yet but is losing ground to newer competitors.

The Sequoia is the same as the Highlander.

The Land Cruiser is just ancient and seriously outdated. It been the same since the 1998 model year save for an engine update in 2005. Also, why would you buy one over a newer, roomier, less-pricey Sequoia?

Their new SUV offerings are flying off the lots (at least the RAV4 is, unsure about FJ).

Another thing is, a lot of Toyota SUVs don't age well, IMO. The Highlander, 4Runner, Sequoia and LC look older than they actually are.

[turbo200]

34 days to turnover is not high for any car. Toyota SUVs have been historically good, but not completely mainstream, GM fortunately still owns this market; so sales comparisons are moot point in this category. However, go over to where they have higher chance of making gains, the midsize sedan segment, compact and large truck market, and you will see that in most of these categories, GM risks losing share to Toyota still. Don't start calling the competition done until GM has shown profits and increases that are measurable, unlike Tahoe gains which so far haven't helped the company out of the red [though they are inching closer].

[Ravenfreak13]

I'm not saying that Toyota is done...it's just that they cant keep rising forever...I feel like toyotas are losing ground in style and ecitment...and there are slight signs on decline...nothing major...just slight as compared to their "impecable" image in the last few years...and GM is rising...slowly...but surly. Thanks for the opinions guys! Hopefully I'll write a better one soon...I'll stay on Toyota watch.

Edited April 22, 2006 by Ravenfreak13

[Ravenfreak13]

BTW, where can one find all the stats(turnover days, age of buyers...etc)

[tama z71]

There's no way you can justify this claim.

[CARBIZ]

General Motors major weakness is its bland products. I think Lutz is slowly addressing this. As GM's models regain relevance in the market, I believe the customers will come back.

Let's face it: Toyota doesn't build any "gotta have" products either. They are merely enjoying a (unjustified) sterling reputation for quality and the undying devotion of the media. The media will turn on them like a pack of dogs, once the bloom is off the rose.

With all the billboards Toyota is taking out, claiming to be as American as GM, it looks like they are becoming more desperate to hold onto their reputation.

With CR voting all their categories as Asian this year, there is nowhere else to go but down.

Let's see: 825,000 trucks recalled because the front wheels were falling off, Toyota and Honda getting caught LYING about their horsepower numbers, Toyota claiming to outselling Chevrolet, then getting caught having added their Scion numbers to their Toyota numbers - ah, well, eventually somebody in the media will realize we've all been HAD by Japan Inc.!

[Ravenfreak13]

Atl east some one sees it as I do...Thanks CARBIZ.

[sciguy_0504]

Some just don't get it and won't let up.

The next-gen Highlander and RX are being designed as we speak (off of the Camry platform) along with the Sequoia and LX (Tundra platform).

I think Toyota botched the launch of the 4Runner by having that ugly grey cladding on base and sport models during its first year out (2003). It was quickly changed for 2004 but it still had its impact. I have been seeing more of them, especially the slightly updated 2006 models which have a different grille and LED taillights. My parents got the sport model with the damn cladding and I keep telling them to trade up to a newer one.

[Ravenfreak13]

Bottom line...toyota is not paying attention to all of its models....Watch in 20 years there will only be the Camry hybrid...and thats it if toyota stays completely focused on camry.

[bobo]

The only glaring omissions in Toyota/Lexus lineups is a lack of sports cars, and they are working on these. As mentioned above, a lot of the SUVs and crossovers are going to be replaced within a year or two. There's no reason to think that Toyota's onslaught will taper off.

[daves87rs]

The only glaring omissions in Toyota/Lexus lineups is a lack of sports cars, and they are working on these.  As mentioned above, a lot of the SUVs and crossovers are going to be replaced within a year or two.  There's no reason to think that Toyota's onslaught will taper off.

Nope, and it won't. Toyota plans to rework their WHOLE lineup within a few years.

That takes GM years. Good luck with that.

Simply put, GM has to not only match (get get quite close) on quality, and offer something toyota hasn't done-offer a car with a soul.

You only have to look at DCX to realize that it can work..(300c, Charger)

[Ravenfreak13]

Well, if GM can catch up with in 3 years, they will be fine...I mean look at what happend in one+ year! They revamped a whole division(saturn). GM reworked their trucks and got great reviews on interior quality and now they need to revamp their small car division...I think 3 years is plenty. As for minivans....well....who knows...

[tama z71]

Well, if GM can catch up with in 3 years, they will be fine...I mean look at what happend in one+ year! They revamped a whole division(saturn). GM reworked their trucks and got great reviews on interior quality and now they need to revamp their small car division...I think 3 years is plenty. As for minivans....well....who knows...

Those things did not happen in one year. Everything that has happened in the past year is a result of work set in motion as long as five years ago. If GM wants to stay at face level with Toyota, they need to be as nimble as Toyota, and that means getting rid of overhead first. If they can deal with the union and legacy costs firsts, then the product will continue to get better. But I dont think we can expect a full turnaround for at least 5-7 years.

[ponchoman49]

I already know 3 current Camry owners who will not be renewing there payment with the current 07 edition. This was music to my ears. Toyota has also botched up the wonderful new 6 speed automatic tranny in the Camry and Avalon with people writing in with ruff shifting issues and even failures. Add in smaller interior dimensions on the Camry, inferior styling on both, a 14.4 cu.ft. trunk on the Avalon which some compact cars can beat, no door protection molding which is ticking a lot of people off at a local dealer when they find there 35K Avalons with door jams everywhere(Toyota is finally offering a dealer option install to correct this) and higher prices. Sur there will always be the blindly loyal faithful Toyota lovers out there but many are looking for something new and different. Add in Toyotas arrogance and there downfall is inevitable.

[Intrepidation]

Nope, and it won't. Toyota plans to rework their WHOLE lineup within a few years.

That takes GM years. Good luck with that.

Simply put, GM has to not only match (get get quite close) on quality, and offer something toyota hasn't done-offer a car with a soul.

You only have to look at DCX to realize that it can work..(300c, Charger)

[Ravenfreak13]

I already know 3 current Camry owners who will not be renewing there payment with the current 07 edition. This was music to my ears. Toyota has also botched up the wonderful new 6 speed automatic tranny in the Camry and Avalon with people writing in with ruff shifting issues and even failures. Add in smaller interior dimensions on the Camry, inferior styling on both, a 14.4 cu.ft. trunk on the Avalon which some compact cars can beat, no door protection molding which is ticking a lot of people off at a local dealer when they find there 35K Avalons with door jams everywhere(Toyota is finally offering a dealer option install to correct this) and higher prices. Sur there will always be the blindly loyal faithful Toyota lovers out there but many are looking for something new and different. Add in Toyotas arrogance and there downfall is inevitable.

[enzl]

I'm not sure what signs people are pointing at to make such a conclusion, but I'll assume it's the normal bleatings of the GM faithful....if only we could wish GM's troubles away!

Toyota is about to up its production capacity in this country by almost 400,000 vehicles, when factoring in the Indiana Subaru plant. They'll revamp their entire line-up in 4 years or less and have no product based on 80's architecture (W-bodies, ahem).

I'm pretty sure they'll be fine. (Helpful hint: When you create these kind of topics, at least try to stay somewhere within the realm of reality. The Kool-Aid must really taste sweet out there!)

[Ravenfreak13]

Did I say that Toyota is garbage? NO. I said that they can't stay the best forever. Plus they have become very arrogant lately...and people are going to start to see that.

[enzl]

Did I say that Toyota is garbage? NO. I said that they can't stay the best forever. Plus they have become very arrogant lately...and people are going to start to see that.

They are able to dictate conditions, rather than react to them. That's what happens when a superior competitor in a saturated marketplace ascends to the top of actual retail sales....

...they're just beginning to flex their muscles and that's bound to accidentally knock a few things off the shelves...You underestimate how relentless they are. Mistakes will be made (and then quickly corrected...see recent 2 yr. redesign of their 7 pass. Verso mini-minivan as a scary example in europe)

[thegriffon]

I'm not sure what signs people are pointing at to make such a conclusion, but I'll assume it's the normal bleatings of the GM faithful....if only we could wish GM's troubles away!

Toyota is about to up its production capacity in this country by almost 400,000 vehicles, when factoring in the Indiana Subaru plant. They'll revamp their entire line-up in 4 years or less and have no product based on 80's architecture (W-bodies, ahem).

I'm pretty sure they'll be fine. (Helpful hint: When you create these kind of topics, at least try to stay somewhere within the realm of reality. The Kool-Aid must really taste sweet out there!)

The W-body has recieved a new platform twice since it's introduction, it is not an '80s platform. If you say GM has been producing W-bodies since the '80s, well you have to know Toyota has been producing E-bodies (Corolla, Sprinter, Matrix etc) since 1966, V-bodies (Camry, Vista, ES-Series) since the early 80's, the S-body (Crown, GS-Series) since 1955, the J-body Toyota truck has been around since 1951, the T-body (Corona, Carina, Allion, Avensis, tC etc.) since 1957, and the P-body (Publica, Starlet, Echo, Yaris) has been produced since 1961. Like the W-body these are like the proverbial axe - over the years it may have recieved 5 new handles and a new head, but it's still the "same axe".

[Ravenfreak13]

The W-body has recieved a new platform twice since it's introduction, it is not an '80s platform. If you say GM has been producing W-bodies since the '80s, well you have to know Toyota has been producing E-bodies (Corolla, Sprinter, Matrix etc) since 1966, V-bodies (Camry, Vista, ES-Series) since the early 80's, the S-body (Crown, GS-Series) since 1955, the J-body Toyota truck has been around since 1951, the T-body (Corona, Carina, Allion, Avensis, tC etc.) since 1957, and the P-body (Publica, Starlet, Echo, Yaris) has been produced since 1961. Like the W-body these are like the proverbial axe - over the years it may have recieved 5 new handles and a new head, but it's still the "same axe".

[thegriffon]

They are able to dictate conditions, rather than react to them. That's what happens when a superior competitor in a saturated marketplace ascends to the top of actual retail sales....

...they're just beginning to flex their muscles and that's bound to accidentally knock a few things off the shelves...You underestimate how relentless they are. Mistakes will be made (and then quickly corrected...see recent 2 yr. redesign of their 7 pass. Verso mini-minivan as a scary example in europe)

Yet the Yaris hatchback is still a generation behind the Europeans, despite the P-body being produced since 1961. How many goes before they get it right do you think?

Toyota has been increasing production and capacity for years, always well ahead of actual sales, at some point you have to wonder whether these capacity increases are running too far ahead. For some people that is happening now. Does Toyota really a need a 160,000 unit Camry plant in Russia when the most popular car costs 80% less and sells no more than 30.000 p.a.?

Edited April 26, 2006 by thegriffon

[Ravenfreak13]

I think that the execution is way more important then architecture...because the skin is what you see...not the bones...take the camry and taurus for example...they are super puffy looking cars...but there under structure isnt puffy...thats why I liked the 90's cars better(most)...they lookeed like cars...not creampuff...they were just jelly beanish.

Edited April 26, 2006 by Ravenfreak13

[enzl]

The W-body has recieved a new platform twice since it's introduction, it is not an '80s platform. If you say GM has been producing W-bodies since the '80s, well you have to know Toyota has been producing E-bodies (Corolla, Sprinter, Matrix etc) since 1966, V-bodies (Camry, Vista, ES-Series) since the early 80's, the S-body (Crown, GS-Series) since 1955, the J-body Toyota truck has been around since 1951, the T-body (Corona, Carina, Allion, Avensis, tC etc.) since 1957, and the P-body (Publica, Starlet, Echo, Yaris) has been produced since 1961. Like the W-body these are like the proverbial axe - over the years it may have recieved 5 new handles and a new head, but it's still the "same axe".

First, the W has been updated, but not fully redesigned since intro...I'm pretty sure you understand the difference...All of your above examples are not comparable situations...the reason the current W's lack interior space is because modern updates have been grafted onto the nearly original design...much like the G bodies as well....

Please refrain from muddying the point with inane comparisons that have no basis in reality...

I'm pretty sure the RWD Corollas share not one part with today's model, as but one example of your exhaustive list of nonsensical historical links to the name and class of product currently produced.

I notice my mention of the Verso is ignored as a ground-breaking development cycle upgrade....rumor has it Toyota may have a 12 month turnaround within the next few years...any reputable industry info source with verify my version of events.

Not producing Euro-competitve small cars is no great shame, as the competition is super-intense, resulting in the Fiat Punto Grande replacing the Suzuki Swift as the class standard within 12 months of intro (see CAR (UK) mag for more info). Every major player in europe has a car or 3 in this segment. The asian invasion has just begun to change car-making in W.Europe...

[thegriffon]

The Toyota Camry (V-body) is also "upgraded" far more frequently than it is completely redesigned. Since it was introduced in 1982 there has been only one truly all-new version prior to this year (the original V-body Camry lasted theough the V20 and V30 before a major change for the V40 in 1994. The "wide-body" V10 of '92 was a streched V30, the V20 a stretched V40, and the V30 simply used the lwb version of the V20 underpinning the preceding X10 Avalon [1995—the narrow V50 Camry Vista didn't arrive till '98 on a shortened version of the X10]). The W-body may not be as fresh as the 2006 Camry, but it is unfair to call it an '80s platform. Not every update has been a major change, but the MS2000 is not the same platform as the original GM10 and it is incorrect to imply it is, and the MS2000 has recieved substantial updates since it's introduction. Limited space has more to do with styling than platform restrictions, the front overhang with engine/transmission choices. As for the comparison between Toyota's vehicle platforms and the W-body, it is fair enough if you are going to ignore platform changes. The example is extreme of course, but simply illustrates that the name is irrelevant.

The competitive nature of the European market is no excuse for fielding the wrong product time and time again. The Yaris is simply too small for the segment it allegedly competes in and customers are not fooled. The Koreans can get it right, why can't Toyota? It's not as if Toyota can't design more suitable product—they just don't sell it in Europe and belatedly brought it to the US as the Scion xA. Toyota may think they know better, but the success of the Grande Punto shows otherwise.

The new Corolla Versa arrived three years after the E12 Corolla Spacio, not two years, and is not a redesign, but a new, additional product for the European market. The original E11 Corolla Spacio dates back to 1997, so they've taken some time to realise the tall Corolla wasn't right for Europe. As it is Toyota now has four separate C-segment MPVs, three based on the Corolla alone (Spacio [tall], Verso [wide] and Wish [long]). Sure it shows that Toyota will plug away until they get it right, but it is not a quick model change. It was probably planned while they were still selling the E11 Verso (Corolla Spacio), simply too late to arrive in time to meet the changeover to the E12.

[Mr.Krinkle]

dont worry, enzl is just cranky because he sells toyotas.

[Intrepidation]

You can add the new recall as part of the early stages. Why? Not because it's a widepread issues (supposedly), but it will change people's preception about Toyota, and open their eyes that, "hey, Toyota is just as vulnerable to dects as anyone else" They'll start to think twice about Toyota's "unbeatable" quality, and once that aspect is removed, Toyota has no clear advantages over the competition. As people start to turn away and look at the competition, and realize that their products are just as a good, if not in some cases better than Toyota's, they'll consider a car by that brand. Then they will tell their friends how great this new car they bought from say Chrysler is. ANd the cycle begins.

Toyota won't make teh same msitakes GM has made, and they certainly won't loose sales to the point where people will think they might go bankrupt, but they'llloose the edge they thought they had, and will no longer be the undisbuteable best carmaker, and so their sales will drop as other's increase, and eventually the playing field is evened out.

[Hudson]

I'm not saying that Toyota is done...it's just that they cant keep rising forever...I feel like toyotas are losing ground in style and ecitment...and there are slight signs on decline...nothing major...just slight as compared to their "impecable" image in the last few years...and GM is rising...slowly...but surly. Thanks for the opinions guys! Hopefully I'll write a better one soon...I'll stay on Toyota watch.

I think you're looking for a problem where there isn't one. Keep looking, but I don't think you've made the argument.

Toyota is actually IMPROVING their designs. They know (and have acknowledge pubilcly) that their styling is among their weaknesses. They are making strides to improve that area.

The argument has already been made against your SUV arguments. The Sequoia had a 34 day supply? That's VERY good. And when you compare to GM's SUVs which haven't been out long enough to have fully filled the inventory and the demand is high to be the first on the block to own one. Let's see where the demand and inventory is NEXT year when Ford updates their trucks...and Toyota's truck will be updated.

And I'm not seeing the GM improvement you're mentioning. If they can stop the market share slide for two years, then we can talk.

[Intrepidation]

I think you're looking for a problem where there isn't one. Keep looking, but I don't think you've made the argument.

Toyota is actually IMPROVING their designs. They know (and have acknowledge pubilcly) that their styling is among their weaknesses. They are making strides to improve that area.

The argument has already been made against your SUV arguments. The Sequoia had a 34 day supply? That's VERY good. And when you compare to GM's SUVs which haven't been out long enough to have fully filled the inventory and the demand is high to be the first on the block to own one. Let's see where the demand and inventory is NEXT year when Ford updates their trucks...and Toyota's truck will be updated.

And I'm not seeing the GM improvement you're mentioning. If they can stop the market share slide for two years, then we can talk.

Take a look at the Sky, Outlook, and even Aura. While interior wise the Camry trumps the Aura (only by the center stack), design wise the new Saturns are far better looking. You call that fat, bloated new Camry an improvement? Over the previous, yes, and with the S trim and blacked out grill it looks alright, not no better than the Aura, and when/if there's a Red Line version, it will look far better. The Yaris looks better than the Echo, but that wasn't feat to accomplish. It doesn't look better than the Accent or even the Rio (which I think looks better). The new Tundra has an ugly front end. The only new vehicle that looks good is the Tacoma. And as for SUVs, it's too early to tell about sales, but unless you're blind they are an obvious/monumental improvement over their predesessors, and far better than the Armada and Sequioa.

Also, I didn't mention anything about how long the vehicles stay on dealers lots, so take that arguement up with the person who actually made it.

And you still don't get that a lot of people buy Toyotas and Hondas because they think they are the most reliable (for example, a friend of mine swares imports are better made than domestics). But with recent recalls Toyota has been having people may start to finally notice that Toyota is just like every other car company, they're not impervious to recalls and defects. And once that key advantage is taken away, you're left with cars and trucks that stylistically lag behind many other makers. They hold an edge in interior design, but the competition is closing the gap there too.

Of course, that same friend still thinks imports are superior despite the fact that he had to have his tranny replaced, and half the features on his other car (a PoS crap colored Volvo) don't work. But there's hope some people will open their eyes.

By contrast, another friend of mine drives a Corolla, and he doesn't think it's any better than any other car. Things break on it, and he knows Toyota is just like any other car company: their cars aren't immortal, they do break just like every other car. Perhaps these resent recalls Toyota has had will open up more people's eyes so they learn what he and I already know.

Edited April 26, 2006 by Dodgefan

[bowtie_dude]

Its going to be interesting to see what happens to Toyota quality as their output gets higher and higher.

Speaking of refreshes, does Toyota make a habit of refreshing a car and not telling anyone? Was anyone else aware of the refresh to the 06 Sienna and Highlander before they went on sale?

[Hudson]

Take a look at the Sky, Outlook, and even Aura. While interior wise the Camry trumps the Aura (only by the center stack), design wise the new Saturns are far better looking. You call that fat, bloated new Camry an improvement? Over the previous, yes, and with the S trim and blacked out grill it looks alright, not no better than the Aura, and when/if there's a Red Line version, it will look far better. The Yaris looks better than the Echo, but that wasn't feat to accomplish. It doesn't look better than the Accent or even the Rio (which I think looks better). The new Tundra has an ugly front end. The only new vehicle that looks good is the Tacoma. And as for SUVs, it's too early to tell about sales, but unless you're blind they are an obvious/monumental improvement over their predesessors, and far better than the Armada and Sequioa.

Also, I didn't mention anything about how long the vehicles stay on dealers lots, so take that arguement up with the person who actually made it.

And you still don't get that a lot of people buy Toyotas and Hondas because they think they are the most reliable (for example, a friend of mine swares imports are better made than domestics). But with recent recalls Toyota has been having people may start to finally notice that Toyota is just like every other car company, they're not impervious to recalls and defects. And once that key advantage is taken away, you're left with cars and trucks that stylistically lag behind many other makers. They hold an edge in interior design, but the competition is closing the gap there too.

Of course, that same friend still thinks imports are superior despite the fact that he had to have his tranny replaced, and half the features on his other car (a PoS crap colored Volvo) don't work. But there's hope some people will open their eyes.

By contrast, another friend of mine drives a Corolla, and he doesn't think it's any better than any other car. Things break on it, and he knows Toyota is just like any other car company: their cars aren't immortal, they do break just like every other car. Perhaps these resent recalls Toyota has had will open up more people's eyes so they learn what he and I already know.

Styling is a personal thing, so saying that the Yaris is unattractive relative to the Rio or Accent is your opinion...and you are entitled to it. I CANNOT defend the styling of the Camry, as I may be the biggest foe of it. But Toyota is making styling a larger priority than it had been. And I'm sure the Camry will sell even with that horrendous nose.

The argument (targeted at the person who posed it) for "days to turn" in favor of my prefered measure of inventory may be a bone of contention. I don't see how dealers can be sitting on 85 days worth of Tahoes and claim that it takes 20 days to turn one over. Wouldn't there be less inventory? I'll make the same argument against the 34-days to turn for the Sequoia when inventory sits at 57 days.

GM's styling is doing much better. As for interiors, like your Yaris-Echo comparison (and your GMT900-GMT800 comparison), they had much room for growth. I hope that the interior of the production Aura is far superior than the pre-production model I saw at NYIAS; the trim on the door, for example, seemed unfinished...I really hope it's just the pre-production quailty and not a final product issue.

Toyota and Honda have ALWAYS had recalls. Every car company does. The biggest difference comes in how the manufacturer and dealers deal with it. As Toyota has grown, they're experiencing many of the same problems GM and Ford have faced with the trouble watching every vehicle as it leaves the factory. But even with this increase in volume and recalls, it's all on how you deal with it.

Quality surveys continue to put Toyota at or near the top. One problem I have with some of these surveys is that it rates each vehicle in a vacuum. Each owner compares each vehicle to itself or, perhaps to the other vehicles the owner has or had owned. If, for example, a domestic owner has only had domestics, he/she might think that certain problems are "usual" (how many dealers have you heard say that? And there have to be owners out there who BELIEVE that or they wouldn't continue to say it). Now how many first-time import car owners have you met who have raved about the quality of their cars? I've seen many postings on this and other sites saying just that.

This theory of mine (I have yet to do any surveys myself) puts import-brands on an artificially higher plane just because a few relatively minor things were done right on these vehicles when compared to a previously owned car (in many cases, a domestic-brand vehicles). And this actually artificially raises the domestic-brand's quality ratings as well. I don't know which is pumped up more.

Back to the point, Toyota is having some growing pains, but they have GM and Ford and Chrysler to learn from. If nothing else, I think we can agree that the Japanese car companies learn very well. And they had better learn from previous missteps because the Koreans and Chinese and Indians are right behind them.

[evok]

Styling is a personal thing, so saying that the Yaris is unattractive relative to the Rio or Accent is your opinion...and you are entitled to it. I CANNOT defend the styling of the Camry, as I may be the biggest foe of it. But Toyota is making styling a larger priority than it had been. And I'm sure the Camry will sell even with that horrendous nose.

The argument (targeted at the person who posed it) for "days to turn" in favor of my prefered measure of inventory may be a bone of contention. I don't see how dealers can be sitting on 85 days worth of Tahoes and claim that it takes 20 days to turn one over. Wouldn't there be less inventory? I'll make the same argument against the 34-days to turn for the Sequoia when inventory sits at 57 days.

GM's styling is doing much better. As for interiors, like your Yaris-Echo comparison (and your GMT900-GMT800 comparison), they had much room for growth. I hope that the interior of the production Aura is far superior than the pre-production model I saw at NYIAS; the trim on the door, for example, seemed unfinished...I really hope it's just the pre-production quailty and not a final product issue.

Toyota and Honda have ALWAYS had recalls. Every car company does. The biggest difference comes in how the manufacturer and dealers deal with it. As Toyota has grown, they're experiencing many of the same problems GM and Ford have faced with the trouble watching every vehicle as it leaves the factory. But even with this increase in volume and recalls, it's all on how you deal with it.

Quality surveys continue to put Toyota at or near the top. One problem I have with some of these surveys is that it rates each vehicle in a vacuum. Each owner compares each vehicle to itself or, perhaps to the other vehicles the owner has or had owned. If, for example, a domestic owner has only had domestics, he/she might think that certain problems are "usual" (how many dealers have you heard say that? And there have to be owners out there who BELIEVE that or they wouldn't continue to say it). Now how many first-time import car owners have you met who have raved about the quality of their cars? I've seen many postings on this and other sites saying just that.

This theory of mine (I have yet to do any surveys myself) puts import-brands on an artificially higher plane just because a few relatively minor things were done right on these vehicles when compared to a previously owned car (in many cases, a domestic-brand vehicles). And this actually artificially raises the domestic-brand's quality ratings as well. I don't know which is pumped up more.

Back to the point, Toyota is having some growing pains, but they have GM and Ford and Chrysler to learn from. If nothing else, I think we can agree that the Japanese car companies learn very well. And they had better learn from previous missteps because the Koreans and Chinese and Indians are right behind them.

agreed

[enzl]

The Toyota Camry (V-body) is also "upgraded" far more frequently than it is completely redesigned. Since it was introduced in 1982 there has been only one truly all-new version prior to this year (the original V-body Camry lasted theough the V20 and V30 before a major change for the V40 in 1994. The "wide-body" V10 of '92 was a streched V30, the V20 a stretched V40, and the V30 simply used the lwb version of the V20 underpinning the preceding X10 Avalon [1995—the narrow V50 Camry Vista didn't arrive till '98 on a shortened version of the X10]). The W-body may not be as fresh as the 2006 Camry, but it is unfair to call it an '80s platform. Not every update has been a major change, but the MS2000 is not the same platform as the original GM10 and it is incorrect to imply it is, and the MS2000 has recieved substantial updates since it's introduction. Limited space has more to do with styling than platform restrictions, the front overhang with engine/transmission choices. As for the comparison between Toyota's vehicle platforms and the W-body, it is fair enough if you are going to ignore platform changes. The example is extreme of course, but simply illustrates that the name is irrelevant.

The competitive nature of the European market is no excuse for fielding the wrong product time and time again. The Yaris is simply too small for the segment it allegedly competes in and customers are not fooled. The Koreans can get it right, why can't Toyota? It's not as if Toyota can't design more suitable product—they just don't sell it in Europe and belatedly brought it to the US as the Scion xA. Toyota may think they know better, but the success of the Grande Punto shows otherwise.

The new Corolla Versa arrived three years after the E12 Corolla Spacio, not two years, and is not a redesign, but a new, additional product for the European market. The original E11 Corolla Spacio dates back to 1997, so they've taken some time to realise the tall Corolla wasn't right for Europe. As it is Toyota now has four separate C-segment MPVs, three based on the Corolla alone (Spacio [tall], Verso [wide] and Wish [long]). Sure it shows that Toyota will plug away until they get it right, but it is not a quick model change. It was probably planned while they were still selling the E11 Verso (Corolla Spacio), simply too late to arrive in time to meet the changeover to the E12.

You obviously know your stuff...I'd quibble around the edges regarding the Verso, if only because I find the response time (or, if you are correct, the anticpation of the marketplace moving to 7 pass mini's) incredible. How many of GM's products are being enhanced or next gen'ed within 18 months of market action?

That's what concerns me about the Kappas..they're great, but in the rush to market, we lose sight of what GM really could use at that end of the market. Imagine Pontiac producing a lineup (think J-car intro) of small, RWD coupes, sedans, wagons & verts, all on one architecture...Now you've got a roll out which could adapt to market conditions (or intro each 6 months after the other, like BMW does with the 3 series), rebadge 'em as Opels and send them to europe to battle the 1 series (take advantage of exchange rates by exporting), etc....A premium price could be achieved, instead of selling $15k Cobalt rehashes, you've got $20k+ products that people would kill for....

[enzl]

dont worry, enzl is just cranky because he sells toyotas.

If only. I'm pretty sure our Toyota place will survive this one just fine...

Mr. K....perhaps you should reread some of my posts...I have repeatedly stated that my employer has interests in GM franchises and I, more than most on this board, have alot more to lose when GM f's things up.

I just call 'em like I see 'em. If you saw the internal info I see, as a GM fan, you'd cry....trust me, I'm not celebrating GM's misery, just being factual.

[Mr.Krinkle]

im a car fan first but its ok, id ont think id cry, thats a bit much...it was only a joke. note: see the smiley face.

the fact is its way too early to see this as a decline. maybe 30 years from now if things arent looking so good people will look back and perhaps cite this as the initial floundering....i highly doubt it though

its like watching the yanks or sox lse a few in april and may and saying they have no shot at the playoffs...

i think the sign of a true decline is when historical sales trends are ignored for current ones.

the muscle car era could be argued as one such instance...great cars but by the time the 70's rolled around there wasnt all that much left in the fridge. a lot was taken out and spoiled...but nevertheless. it only makes a comeback that more sweet.

porsche on the other hand got roasted for a while because they wanted an suv.

and they got it much to the chagrin of car people...but they pulled it off and they never forsaked their bread and butter while doing it. i know its kind of a stretch but only to illustrate my point.

i dont see toyota neglecting any of their money cars. in fact, the sports cars they had supra and mr-2 although popular didnt stay around while they were reloading.

i dont know about their profitibility but the segment had to be smaller than the family car business.

is there only one right way of doing business and making money. i doubt it, it just depends on where you are or where you were.

bottom line--its premature to see this as a decline, and as hudson said these companies learrn quickly and they better because other companies are sneaking up.

--by the by, i really was joking and i know you have assorted interests.

lighten up a little.

[enzl]

--by the by, i really was joking and i know you have assorted interests.

lighten up a little.

Lightened :AH-HA_wink:

[Sixty8panther]

Well... the new Camry is a lot less ugly and bland than the old one,

and I hate Toyota but I have to admit those ads for the Camry are

just perfect for the demographic they're going after... bland, soul-

less idiots will always buy Camrys but if they get some wannabe

car enthusiasts then they'll keep riding their wave of Bull$h! &

biased car-rag propaganda even further to the top.

I do hope Toyota falls off their high horse and breaks their neck in

the process... hey it happened to Superman why not them. Never say

never I just hope it's not too late.

[enzl]

Well... the new Camry is a lot less ugly and bland than the old one,

and I hate Toyota but I have to admit those ads for the Camry are

just perfect for the demographic they're going after... bland, soul-

less idiots will always buy Camrys but if they get some wannabe

car enthusiasts then they'll keep riding their wave of Bull$h! &

biased car-rag propaganda even further to the top.

I do hope Toyota falls off their high horse and breaks their neck in

the process... hey it happened to Superman why not them. Never say

never I just hope it's not too late.

Wouldn't you rather beat them at their own game, or god forbid, create superior product?

The sentiment expressed perfectly illustrates what makes this site so frustrating....I sense people here are rooting for competitors' failure rather than providing insight into GM's anticipated success...and that's the attitude that pervades every thread...(And I don't mean to pick on 68, but philosophically, I've got an issue with hoping the next guy loses rather than planning for my own victory, or at least providing a roadmap for it.)

[Sixty8panther]

You're right to a large degree.

HOWEVER, do you feel the marketplace

is a level playing field for GM & Toyota?

I think tey fight dirty, and I'd rahter not

see GM stoop to their level but in the

end I want GM to succed by any & all

means neccersary.

Like I said in another thread our fantasy

lineup of Zeta cars will go a LONG way to

help GM return to profitability.

[enzl]

You're right to a large degree.

HOWEVER, do you feel the marketplace

is a level playing field for GM & Toyota?

I think tey fight dirty, and I'd rahter not

see GM stoop to their level but in the

end I want GM to succed by any & all

means neccersary.

Like I said in another thread our fantasy

lineup of Zeta cars will go a LONG way to

help GM return to profitability.

I think GM is currently paying for PAST transgressions...be it the press, the buying public, etc...(truth is, their product is more competitive than its been in 20 years right now & ironically, they're losing retail market share anyway.)

That being said, because perception is reality, it'll take a few years for the damage to their rep to be undone...unfortunately, GM is facing other issues that have compounded and otherwise exaggerated the process.

GM can do it. Can't be with $5,000 coupons and other guys failing. Generally, the auto industry has produced amazing turnarounds because companies have their back up against the wall. I'm not sure if GM's corporate culture will allow that type of comeback, but I'm certainly rooting for them.

The Zetas HAVE to be great. GM may also need a huge surprise hit to really regain their footing. Saturn renaissance is one possibility. Lambdas are my bet...

[ZL-1]

The Zetas HAVE to be great. GM may also need a huge surprise hit to really regain their footing. Saturn renaissance is one possibility. Lambdas are my bet...

The mid-size FWD Epsilon II cars will have to be segment leaders too, because the "bland, soul-less idiots" (I wouldn't use that expression if it wasn't already used above) mentioned above buy some 400K Camrys each year and the Zetas will probably be priced in the upper range of Camry prices, Avalon prices, and eventually entry-level Lexus prices.

Edited April 26, 2006 by ZL-1

[enzl]

The mid-size FWD Epsilon II cars will have to be segment leaders too, because the "bland, soul-less idiots" (I wouldn't use that expression if it wasn't already used above) mentioned above buy some 400K Camrys each year and the Zetas will probably be priced in the upper range of Camry prices, Avalon prices, and eventually entry-level Lexus prices.

100% right.

I was thinking more along the lines of a surprise breakout hit....think minivan or Mustang--something that creates a demand where there wasn't thought to be one before.

Historically, GM didn't create segments, but perhaps the crisis will awaken some dreamers and quiet some of the 'yes' men.

Perhaps adding plug-in capability to hybrids in development? Just a thought.

[Intrepidation]

100% right.

I was thinking more along the lines of a surprise breakout hit....think minivan or Mustang--something that creates a demand where there wasn't thought to be one before.

Historically, GM didn't create segments, but perhaps the crisis will awaken some dreamers and quiet some of the 'yes' men.

Perhaps adding plug-in capability to hybrids in development? Just a thought.

The Solstice has done that, but unfortuneately, it's a low volume car. It's a hit for sure, but GM needs a hit in the high volume segments. The Aura looks good, though I dunno about hit worthy, especially with recent spyshots of the Avenger looksing so good (although the Aura probably is priced closer to teh Sebring.

[Ravenfreak13]

Well...so far Camry has a recall and the Avalon is spazzing out too.

[Sixty8panther]

With the possible exception of a hypothetical n.g. RWD Celica

Toyota does not have anything that I woudl like, my GM bias

aside. I think the new Camry is a huge improvement styling

wise over the last but that's not saying much.

[Camino LS6]

As Toyota grows, chinks in the armor are forming to be sure. But, nothing that would truly indicate a decline is coming anytime soon. This is not easy for me to say,mind you, as I hate Toyota more than any other car company worldwide. I don't hate them for what they have done to the domestics as much as what they have done to cars in general. Toyota has done more to turn cars into soulless appliances than any other manufacturer, and not only their own cars but those of the other manufacturers as well. As an automobile enthusiast, I could never in good conscience buy a Toyota. So, yes I wish Toyota all the bad luck possible, but I don't see any significant decline in its fortunes yet.