Pioneering scientists turn fresh air into petrol

[SAmadei]

A small British company has produced the first "petrol from air" using a revolutionary technology that promises to solve the energy crisis as well as helping to curb global warming by removing carbon dioxide from the atmosphere.

Air Fuel Synthesis in Stockton-on-Tees has produced five litres of petrol since August when it switched on a small refinery that manufactures gasoline from carbon dioxide and water vapour.

The company hopes that within two years it will build a larger, commercial-scale plant capable of producing a ton of petrol a day. It also plans to produce green aviation fuel to make airline travel more carbon-neutral.

More at http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/exclusive-pioneering-scientists-turn-fresh-air-into-petrol-in-massive-boost-in-fight-against-energy-crisis-8217382.html

[SAmadei]

I would love to know what the chemical formulation for this "synthetic gasoline" is... but in the long run, I still think this has more potential than all the mess of mining Lithium in Afghanistan produces and the huge technical hurdle battery capacity has.

However, if synthetic gasoline is basically used as an energy transfer medium, I would have to imagine that every car will have some sort of E-Assist to recoup regenerative braking energy.

Overall, though, unless I see more details, I believe in this about as much as cold fusion.

[FAPTurbo]

And just how much energy is required to do this? I can't wait to see how much 'clean coal' or fracked natural gas it will take.

Edited October 23, 2012 by Pervez Musharrfap

[G. David Felt]

And just how much energy is required to do this? I can't wait to see how much 'clean coal' or fracked natural gas it will take.

I will take Fracked Natural Gas over this any day. At least CNG is much cleaner and abundant in the US without having to import oil. We could truly change our country for better if we all moved to CNG which is a logical next step while the battery nerds figure out how to give you a 500-1000 mile range on a battery pack so you can do road trips and then charge over night.

Best bet would be for GM to use the VOLT power-train but with a CNG generator and go from there, much cleaner than Petrol and a solid move for people. They could fuel up at home with a BRC FuelMaker appliance.

[Drew Dowdell]

Air Fuel Synthesis in Stockton-on-Tees has produced five litres of petrol since August when it switched on a small refinery that manufactures gasoline from carbon dioxide and water vapour.

I think they've missed a few ingredients in that recipe... I bet we find out that this is some sort of fraud.

[ocnblu]

Sounds much more viable than electric cars.

[Drew Dowdell]

Sounds much more viable than electric cars.

Said no one who ever read a high school chemistry book....

[ocnblu]

[Drew Dowdell]

Which are you going to believe? A press release about making gasoline from air and water or your lying eyes looking at the Chevy Volt at the dealership next door?

[ocnblu]

are you being serious right now?

Edited October 24, 2012 by ocnblu

[Drew Dowdell]

Yes. There are, off the top of my head, at least 7 vehicles that operate under electric propulsion for sale today. That is, you could march down to the dealership and trade your Jeep in on any of the 7, take delivery today, and have an electric vehicle in your garage by noon.

Otherwise, you can buy one of these machines in the press release where there is NO explanation of the process involved much less how much energy it takes to make it (notice they still pull electricity from the grid), only that they've made a gallon and a half of the stuff since August.

[ocnblu]

so then it is true, my sarcastic remark pointed toward fuel from air went completely over your head

[Drew Dowdell]

Your hate of electric cars precedes you.

[ocnblu]

That's why it worked so well in this thread. Fuel from air? LOL.

[G. David Felt]

Your hate of electric cars precedes you.

That's why it worked so well in this thread. Fuel from air? LOL.

You guys crack me up, I get both the Sarcastic remark and the seriousness of the electric car which are fine luxury golf carts for inter city commuting.

[SAmadei]

And just how much energy is required to do this? I can't wait to see how much 'clean coal' or fracked natural gas it will take.

It uses electric... the assumption here is that in the future electric will be produced from a clean source, but that is outside the scope of the invention presented here. I also don't see an inefficient process being that big of a deal, if the system is using solar panels in some desert or windmills out in the ocean, as the energy would have essentially gone to waste anyway. There is a lot of loss in batteries and battery charging.

Air Fuel Synthesis in Stockton-on-Tees has produced five litres of petrol since August when it switched on a small refinery that manufactures gasoline from carbon dioxide and water vapour.

I think they've missed a few ingredients in that recipe... I bet we find out that this is some sort of fraud.

Yeah... like a catalyst. However, a catalyst that is not consumed is not in the final product would not be in the final ingredient list... the gasoline would be made from CO2 and H2O... not catalyst.

Keep in mind that I'm a skeptic of this process, as well. However, unlike cold fusion or 100x improvements in lithium battery tech, I feel that there should be a way to reasonably economically undo the combustion process... after all, we already have carbon dioxide scrubbers and already know how to make certain components of gasoline, such as butane or isooctane (but is cheaper to make these from refining oil than from other sources). Of course, I still cannot get a straight answer as to what chemical a synthetic gasoline would be made from.

Which are you going to believe? A press release about making gasoline from air and water or your lying eyes looking at the Chevy Volt at the dealership next door?

The Volt that has too little battery and quickly turns into just another gas swilling ecological killer? The Volt that in 5 or 10 years has a dead or degraded battery pack? The Volt that is failing to meet sales expectations in a market with $5/gal gas? In the end, the Volt is using a compromised technology, with grand promises that it will get better if people promise to buy more of them.

If someone can actually convert CO2 and H2O into some form of gasoline, it allows us to continue to use our infrastructure, converts billions of legacy engines to something greener and it removes carbon dioxide from the atmosphere, I say more power to them. Its use would make the Volt greener. If they are frauds, OTOH, they should be crucified.

[A Horse With No Name]

And just how much energy is required to do this? I can't wait to see how much 'clean coal' or fracked natural gas it will take.

I will take Fracked Natural Gas over this any day. At least CNG is much cleaner and abundant in the US without having to import oil. We could truly change our country for better if we all moved to CNG which is a logical next step while the battery nerds figure out how to give you a 500-1000 mile range on a battery pack so you can do road trips and then charge over night.

Best bet would be for GM to use the VOLT power-train but with a CNG generator and go from there, much cleaner than Petrol and a solid move for people. They could fuel up at home with a BRC FuelMaker appliance.

Agree 100 percent...and we have lots of natural gas here.

Sounds much more viable than electric cars.

Actually the upside to electric cars in enormous.....

[Drew Dowdell]

The Volt that has too little battery and quickly turns into just another gas swilling ecological killer? The Volt that in 5 or 10 years has a dead or degraded battery pack? The Volt that is failing to meet sales expectations in a market with $5/gal gas? In the end, the Volt is using a compromised technology, with grand promises that it will get better if people promise to buy more of them.

The neat thing about the Volt is that it is version 1.0. It doesn't care how you spin the generator. Want to use butterfly farts as fuel for a diesel wankle engine? The Volt doesn't care. Run turbines, run sterling engines, run wankles, run diesel... it doesn't matter. The Volt will drive exactly the same no matter what. No concerns on "throttle responsiveness" no concerns on acceleration.... the gasoline engine becomes a non-issue.

[ZL-1]

Wonder if anyone will figure out how to make petrol out of farts...

Edited October 30, 2012 by ZL-1

[FAPTurbo]

Wonder if anyone will figure out how to make petrol out of farts...

There's always that 'air powered car.' But I'm not sure we'll want to pump that type of gas out of a hose.

[loki]

once we make electricity production much more dense, using power to do this will become a non issue... like if we want electrolysis machines in our homes to power a car with fuel cells ....or whatever.

Olds, i was kinda surprised by your failure of basic chemistry... of imagining a reverse combustion equation. no offense.

[ZL-1]

Wonder if anyone will figure out how to make petrol out of farts...

There's always that 'air powered car.' But I'm not sure we'll want to pump that type of gas out of a hose.

LOL

[G. David Felt]

Wonder if anyone will figure out how to make petrol out of farts...

There's always that 'air powered car.' But I'm not sure we'll want to pump that type of gas out of a hose.

LOL

I have created the Butt-n-ator.

This is a self fueling power source for auto's. Just eat plenty of material that causes gas such as Dairy, Cabbage, beans, broccoli, etc and then when driving you can just fart into your seat and it is stored in a special can under the seat and used to fuel the car.

Natural Methan at it's best.

[ZL-1]

Wonder if anyone will figure out how to make petrol out of farts...

There's always that 'air powered car.' But I'm not sure we'll want to pump that type of gas out of a hose.

LOL

I have created the Butt-n-ator.

This is a self fueling power source for auto's. Just eat plenty of material that causes gas such as Dairy, Cabbage, beans, broccoli, etc and then when driving you can just fart into your seat and it is stored in a special can under the seat and used to fuel the car.

Natural Methan at it's best.

And all without any hoses involved... Excellent idea!

[SAmadei]

The neat thing about the Volt is that it is version 1.0. It doesn't care how you spin the generator. Want to use butterfly farts as fuel for a diesel wankle engine? The Volt doesn't care. Run turbines, run sterling engines, run wankles, run diesel... it doesn't matter. The Volt will drive exactly the same no matter what. No concerns on "throttle responsiveness" no concerns on acceleration.... the gasoline engine becomes a non-issue.

Bringing this up is like comparing fuel economy to cup holders. Gasoline packs the highest reasonably safe power density.Electricity/Batteries do not. The Volt marketing does not tout the ability for the Volt to forsake the electrical cord and run on butterfly farts because, at present, you cannot buy a Volt ready to run on butterfly farts or the parts to convert the Volt to use butterfly farts. And it will take a decade for GM to engineer these changes and get the EPA and PETA to play along. In the meantime, somebody discovers a way to make economic synthetic gasoline and all GM's Volt technology becomes an overgrown E-Assist (for butterfly farts).

[G. David Felt]

The neat thing about the Volt is that it is version 1.0. It doesn't care how you spin the generator. Want to use butterfly farts as fuel for a diesel wankle engine? The Volt doesn't care. Run turbines, run sterling engines, run wankles, run diesel... it doesn't matter. The Volt will drive exactly the same no matter what. No concerns on "throttle responsiveness" no concerns on acceleration.... the gasoline engine becomes a non-issue.

Bringing this up is like comparing fuel economy to cup holders. Gasoline packs the highest reasonably safe power density.Electricity/Batteries do not. The Volt marketing does not tout the ability for the Volt to forsake the electrical cord and run on butterfly farts because, at present, you cannot buy a Volt ready to run on butterfly farts or the parts to convert the Volt to use butterfly farts. And it will take a decade for GM to engineer these changes and get the EPA and PETA to play along. In the meantime, somebody discovers a way to make economic synthetic gasoline and all GM's Volt technology becomes an overgrown E-Assist (for butterfly farts).

Sythetic gas is like cold fusion, not a true thing yet and we have a far superior logical step. NATURAL GAS, or CNG.

The Volt is a perfect way to move to auto's that have a kinder foot print on the planet and what really needs to happen is for GM to do the Volt in Car, CUV, MiniVan and Small Truck platform but use a CNG Generator. This way you have a very high density of power since CNG is 130 Octane right from the ground and is very clean only 1/3 the polution of Gas.

The US has the worlds largest reserves and we can get long distance auto's with very clean emissions.

[Drew Dowdell]

The neat thing about the Volt is that it is version 1.0. It doesn't care how you spin the generator. Want to use butterfly farts as fuel for a diesel wankle engine? The Volt doesn't care. Run turbines, run sterling engines, run wankles, run diesel... it doesn't matter. The Volt will drive exactly the same no matter what. No concerns on "throttle responsiveness" no concerns on acceleration.... the gasoline engine becomes a non-issue.

Bringing this up is like comparing fuel economy to cup holders. Gasoline packs the highest reasonably safe power density.Electricity/Batteries do not. The Volt marketing does not tout the ability for the Volt to forsake the electrical cord and run on butterfly farts because, at present, you cannot buy a Volt ready to run on butterfly farts or the parts to convert the Volt to use butterfly farts. And it will take a decade for GM to engineer these changes and get the EPA and PETA to play along. In the meantime, somebody discovers a way to make economic synthetic gasoline and all GM's Volt technology becomes an overgrown E-Assist (for butterfly farts).

I'm saying that the Volt is the best vehicle for the future market because it makes the type of fuel nearly irrelevant to the driver. Swap the fuel out for whatever the market demands and the Volt will run and drive exactly the same way as it does today. Need an example of how this is important to the general consumer? Look at how much diesels have struggled to take hold in this country. Sure you have a core of hardcore diesel fanbois, but outside of that, diesels are a hard sell to everyone else not buying a truck. People don't like how they sound, how they accelerate, that they "don't rev to 11,000rpm", that they sometimes blow black smoke.... On the Volt, none of that matters. Swap out the combustion process in the Volt to anything your wee heart can imagine and nothing about the driving changes.

Even if someone makes a synthetic gasoline (of which we already have a bio version) doesn't at all make the Volt obsolete because whatever that product may be will still be a commodity sold, traded, and competed for.

[Drew Dowdell]

The neat thing about the Volt is that it is version 1.0. It doesn't care how you spin the generator. Want to use butterfly farts as fuel for a diesel wankle engine? The Volt doesn't care. Run turbines, run sterling engines, run wankles, run diesel... it doesn't matter. The Volt will drive exactly the same no matter what. No concerns on "throttle responsiveness" no concerns on acceleration.... the gasoline engine becomes a non-issue.

Bringing this up is like comparing fuel economy to cup holders. Gasoline packs the highest reasonably safe power density.Electricity/Batteries do not. The Volt marketing does not tout the ability for the Volt to forsake the electrical cord and run on butterfly farts because, at present, you cannot buy a Volt ready to run on butterfly farts or the parts to convert the Volt to use butterfly farts. And it will take a decade for GM to engineer these changes and get the EPA and PETA to play along. In the meantime, somebody discovers a way to make economic synthetic gasoline and all GM's Volt technology becomes an overgrown E-Assist (for butterfly farts).

Sythetic gas is like cold fusion, not a true thing yet and we have a far superior logical step. NATURAL GAS, or CNG.

The Volt is a perfect way to move to auto's that have a kinder foot print on the planet and what really needs to happen is for GM to do the Volt in Car, CUV, MiniVan and Small Truck platform but use a CNG Generator. This way you have a very high density of power since CNG is 130 Octane right from the ground and is very clean only 1/3 the polution of Gas.

The US has the worlds largest reserves and we can get long distance auto's with very clean emissions.

Such high octane also allows for smaller yet more power dense engines because they can be run at much higher compression. The GM 4-cylinders in Brazil all run 12:1 compression ratio (same as the M5 V-10) because they run alcohol in their engines down there.

[G. David Felt]

The neat thing about the Volt is that it is version 1.0. It doesn't care how you spin the generator. Want to use butterfly farts as fuel for a diesel wankle engine? The Volt doesn't care. Run turbines, run sterling engines, run wankles, run diesel... it doesn't matter. The Volt will drive exactly the same no matter what. No concerns on "throttle responsiveness" no concerns on acceleration.... the gasoline engine becomes a non-issue.

Bringing this up is like comparing fuel economy to cup holders. Gasoline packs the highest reasonably safe power density.Electricity/Batteries do not. The Volt marketing does not tout the ability for the Volt to forsake the electrical cord and run on butterfly farts because, at present, you cannot buy a Volt ready to run on butterfly farts or the parts to convert the Volt to use butterfly farts. And it will take a decade for GM to engineer these changes and get the EPA and PETA to play along. In the meantime, somebody discovers a way to make economic synthetic gasoline and all GM's Volt technology becomes an overgrown E-Assist (for butterfly farts).

Sythetic gas is like cold fusion, not a true thing yet and we have a far superior logical step. NATURAL GAS, or CNG.

The Volt is a perfect way to move to auto's that have a kinder foot print on the planet and what really needs to happen is for GM to do the Volt in Car, CUV, MiniVan and Small Truck platform but use a CNG Generator. This way you have a very high density of power since CNG is 130 Octane right from the ground and is very clean only 1/3 the polution of Gas.

The US has the worlds largest reserves and we can get long distance auto's with very clean emissions.

Such high octane also allows for smaller yet more power dense engines because they can be run at much higher compression. The GM 4-cylinders in Brazil all run 12:1 compression ratio (same as the M5 V-10) because they run alcohol in their engines down there.

Could we not have a Generator that is about half the size and weight of a traditional 4 banger running at 20:1 powering these auto's and with the lighter weight the MPG goes up more.

[Drew Dowdell]

The neat thing about the Volt is that it is version 1.0. It doesn't care how you spin the generator. Want to use butterfly farts as fuel for a diesel wankle engine? The Volt doesn't care. Run turbines, run sterling engines, run wankles, run diesel... it doesn't matter. The Volt will drive exactly the same no matter what. No concerns on "throttle responsiveness" no concerns on acceleration.... the gasoline engine becomes a non-issue.

Bringing this up is like comparing fuel economy to cup holders. Gasoline packs the highest reasonably safe power density.Electricity/Batteries do not. The Volt marketing does not tout the ability for the Volt to forsake the electrical cord and run on butterfly farts because, at present, you cannot buy a Volt ready to run on butterfly farts or the parts to convert the Volt to use butterfly farts. And it will take a decade for GM to engineer these changes and get the EPA and PETA to play along. In the meantime, somebody discovers a way to make economic synthetic gasoline and all GM's Volt technology becomes an overgrown E-Assist (for butterfly farts).

Sythetic gas is like cold fusion, not a true thing yet and we have a far superior logical step. NATURAL GAS, or CNG.

The Volt is a perfect way to move to auto's that have a kinder foot print on the planet and what really needs to happen is for GM to do the Volt in Car, CUV, MiniVan and Small Truck platform but use a CNG Generator. This way you have a very high density of power since CNG is 130 Octane right from the ground and is very clean only 1/3 the polution of Gas.

The US has the worlds largest reserves and we can get long distance auto's with very clean emissions.

Such high octane also allows for smaller yet more power dense engines because they can be run at much higher compression. The GM 4-cylinders in Brazil all run 12:1 compression ratio (same as the M5 V-10) because they run alcohol in their engines down there.

Could we not have a Generator that is about half the size and weight of a traditional 4 banger running at 20:1 powering these auto's and with the lighter weight the MPG goes up more.

Yup. A small V2 or something. It might run more frequently, but would use less fuel over all. You could have an I-3, an H-2, a VR-4.... all you need to do is address NVH. Things like ability to rev, redline, low end torque, all become moot. You can even make engines more simple. No need for DOHC, no need for VVT. Direct Injection could still be done as it does offer fuel savings.

As it is, the gasoline engine in the Volt is an unremarkable, unsophisticated 4-cylinder that just runs high compression. There is still MPGs left on the table with the Volt as built today. I'm certain it is for cost concerns.