Sky, Solstice and Corvette: S.O.S.

[Mr.Krinkle]

not sure about this but wasnt the solstice originally going to be a heavily modified delta platform but when that didnt pan out they put together kappa.

[Chazman]

not sure about this but wasnt the solstice originally going to be a heavily modified delta platform but when that didnt pan out they put together kappa.

The press release said Delta -and perhaps there was some wishful thinking there, dunno - but the concept was actually a heavily cobbled up J-car.

In the end, creating Kappa from a Y car inspired, hydroformed rail structure and off the shelf parts was the fastest way to create this car. Any flexibility on it, simply does not exist though.

You can argue that a more flexible architecture might have been smarter in the long run....but know this: it would have cost WAAAAY more, and we'd probably still be waiting for it's realease.

[Croc]

and we'd probably still be waiting for it's realease.

Well, seeing as it was just released for 2006, yes. It prolly could have been ready though in an additional 12 to 18 months. It really wouldn't have seemed as long if GM hadn't kept showing it at autoshows and revealing the production version a year before its release, though...

[evok]

Well, seeing as it was just released for 2006, yes.  It prolly could have been ready though in an additional 12 to 18 months.  It really wouldn't have seemed as long if GM hadn't kept showing it at autoshows and revealing the production version a year before its release, though...

I think at this point it is pointless for all of us to continue to discuss what might have been. Decisions have been made and GM is currently stuck with the current kappa platform for the near future.

[Croc]

Generally I agree...but that's what this site does best...have you seen the number of "what if" threads on Oldsmobile?

[Northstar]

How small can they make Zeta? Is it possible to shorten Zeta so that it's basically the same size as Kappa?

I think if they simply update Kappa the NG Solstice and Sky can still ride on it.

[Chazman]

How small can they make Zeta? Is it possible to shorten Zeta so that it's basically the same size as Kappa?

I think if they simply update Kappa the NG Solstice and Sky can still ride on it.

That would be interesting to see. I would imagine that Zeta is not that flexible though.

[heintz]

If this isn't a business case for the development of a more flexible Kappa II (coupes and sedans in addition to roadsters), I don't know what is.

I totally agree.

[heintz]

And wasn't the Curve and the Nomad supposed to demontrate the amazing versatility of the Kappa platform? What happened to that versatility? Trimmed to bring the Sol into production faster? What about the engineering that went into the Curve and Nomad? Did they just flush it? Or is it sitting in a drawer somewhere, ignored?

Edited April 28, 2006 by heintz

[Croc]

Curve and Nomad were concept cars...not much actual engineering going into those one-off cars. Which Nomad, by the way? The one from like 99 or 00 with the A-pillar side mirrors...that design predated Kappa by a lot...

[VenSeattle]

Curve and Nomad were concept cars...not much actual engineering going into those one-off cars.  Which Nomad, by the way?  The one from like 99 or 00 with the A-pillar side mirrors...that design predated Kappa by a lot...

Come on Croc... the 2004 Nomad concept was on the Kappa platform to show the versatility of the Kappa platform (as he said). I'm sure he was referring to it since he mentioned Curve in the same post (which debuted at the same time as that Nomad.)

I honestly don't see how you could have misinterpreted what he was referring to.

[prinzSD]

I hope we've heard the "Kappa was a mistake"  garbage for the last time.

This is great stuff.

amen.

[Croc]

Come on Croc... the 2004 Nomad concept was on the Kappa platform to show the versatility of the Kappa platform (as he said). I'm sure he was referring to it since he mentioned Curve in the same post (which debuted at the same time as that Nomad.)

I honestly don't see how you could have misinterpreted what he was referring to.

I think you misinterpreted my post. The main point was that those were one-off concept cars and were not engineered for production. As such, very little actual engineering went into them, hence no money wasted.

That was the first part of my post. The second was asking which Nomad he was referring to, since the first one tended to be much more popular than the second with a lot of enthusiasts asking for that one to be produced on Kappa. It really wasn't an unreasonable question. Either way, it does not change my response regarding Kappa variants.

Edited April 28, 2006 by Croc

[VenSeattle]

I think you misinterpreted my post.  The main point was that those were one-off concept cars and were not engineered for production.  As such, very little actual engineering went into them, hence no money wasted.

That was the first part of my post.  The second was asking which Nomad he was referring to, since the first one tended to be much more popular than the second with a lot of enthusiasts asking for that one to be produced on Kappa.  It really wasn't an unreasonable question.  Either way, it does not change my response regarding Kappa variants.

Nope... no misinterpretation on my side. I knew what you were saying, but the purpose of the trio were to illustrate the versatility of Kappa. Whether or not it was realistic wasn't what I was commenting on. That's what heinz was commenting on... "the purpose," or as he put it "to demonstrate."

So for you to get his comment confused with the 2000 Nomad seemed odd.

[Croc]

So for you to get his comment confused with the 2000 Nomad seemed odd.

Again...I wasn't confused at all. Those were two separate thoughts...???

[VenSeattle]

Again...I wasn't confused at all.  Those were two separate thoughts...???

So which post by heintz did you think he was referring to the 2000 Nomad? The question was directed to him afterall... and he only made one post. If you weren't confused... then why bring it up at all? No one else did.

Heintz...

And wasn't the Curve and the Nomad supposed to demontrate the amazing versatility of the Kappa platform? What happened to that versatility? Trimmed to bring the Sol into production faster? What about the engineering that went into the Curve and Nomad? Did they just flush it? Or is it sitting in a drawer somewhere, ignored?

Croc...

Curve and Nomad were concept cars...not much actual engineering going into those one-off cars.  Which Nomad, by the way?  The one from like 99 or 00 with the A-pillar side mirrors...that design predated Kappa by a lot...

[Croc]

Um, no one else posted between him and me...derr of course no one else brought it up

What are you trying to pin me down on? Seriously...it's ridiculous to perpetuate this. There were multiple questions in his posts. Some were addressed by the first part of mine, and the last couple were related to the last part of my post. There were 2 Nomads. One in 2000 that was universally praised and well-received, then there was the 2004 that was almost as universally panned. One was likely "flushed" and the other has been hinted by GM that they might want to bring it to production, though that is unlikely now given the amount of time that has passed since 2000 and the Camaro of 2006 (sitting in a drawer somewhere, ignored). Since he didn't specify which Nomad concept, I did not assume either, and simply asked. So what's with the third degree, Ven?

If it isn't clear to you now, then please PM me...or better yet just drop it because it isn't a big deal at all (though its continuation is beginning to irritate me) and I fail to see why you are continuing this tangential and inconsequential discussion.

Edited April 29, 2006 by Croc

[BatmanGTO]

You know what... i just read all nine pages of this post and i think you are all silly.... and kaniggits for those who love old movies "no idea if i spelled that right".....

[Chazman]

I just want to post in order to show off my nifty sig that Ted helped me with.

[Imaj]

The platform is limited and can not spawn the variation that is need

It can fit a V6. And there is a gap in Pontiac's lineup between the uplevel GXP and the now dead GTO.

They could build a V6 kappa that could fill this gap. The 3.6HFV6 would make 300hp and it could be turbocharged to more than that.

I wonder if Kappa can fit an MR configuration, bringing back the Fiero!

[CaddyXLR-V]

I just want to post in order to show off my nifty sig that Ted helped me with. 

I've never considered myself a Camaro guy, the only ones I would consider buying is one from the 60s, but new Camaro is really tempting me. I could see myself buying that car, provided they keep the weight down(less than 3500lbs in V8 trim), and keep the price reasonable.

[Guest Josh]

In addition - there are no replacements on the books as far as I know to replace KappaIs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're out of your mind.

[Guest Josh]

I read half way through the 8th page and can't say anything else but "all wrong."

Sometimes the people "in the know" might not really be all that much "in the know" when it comes to certain programs. Believe me. The Solstice is fine. Scottie S wants to see the Nomad just as bad as we all do.

Lets keep it at that. It won't be '05. Evok is talking about concept to production before '04 happened. Now, you're looking at the max of 4 years and that's on a very difficult line.

Dispute that, Evok. The basis is off of old times for "5 years"......the program will be done in 3 at the most.

[Chazman]

Are we still talking about Kappa II? If it comes, it won't be before '11 or '12.

[evok]

You're out of your mind.

No but are you still hung over?

Edited April 29, 2006 by evok

[ehaase]

I've never considered myself a Camaro guy, the only ones I would consider buying is one from the 60s, but new Camaro is really tempting me. I could see myself buying that car, provided they keep the weight down(less than 3500lbs in V8 trim), and keep the price reasonable.

Over at the CamaroZ28 message board, the talk is that the Camaro may have a base V6, a high output V6, and a 6.2L V8 only in the most expensive version.

http://64.65.63.61/forums/showthread.php?t=447456

Edited April 29, 2006 by ehaase

[evok]

I read half way through the 8th page and can't say anything else but "all wrong."

Sometimes the people "in the know" might not really be all that much "in the know" when it comes to certain programs. Believe me. The Solstice is fine. Scottie S wants to see the Nomad just as bad as we all do.

Lets keep it at that. It won't be '05. Evok is talking about concept to production before '04 happened. Now, you're looking at the max of 4 years and that's on a very difficult line.

Dispute that, Evok. The basis is off of old times for "5 years"......the program will be done in 3 at the most.

Josh give me a break - know thy business. Don't question me about auto and I will not question you about the latest cell phone deals and family plan.

And BTW you take my statements out of context.

Edited April 29, 2006 by evok

[Guest Josh]

Josh give me a break - know thy business.  Don't question me about auto and I will not question you about the latest cell phone deals and family plan.

If you want to get pissy with me, I can play that game.  I suggest you watch you mouth.  You want to ask legit questions that is fine but the facts are you do not know auto, never worked in auto and for that matter sound like a fool when you talk auto.  Josh grow up already.  It is about f'in time.  BTW when you actually have a college degree(s) than we can banter.

And BTW you take my statements out of context.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The cell phone joke was pretty good, the rest I could do without.

But it's 550 anytime minutes for $59.99 and you might qualify for a discount on the plan depending on where you work. Sound good?

[heintz]

Again...I wasn't confused at all.  Those were two separate thoughts...???

OK, my turn again. Yes, I meant the later Nomad. I saw both the 2000 and 2004 Nomads at shows. I thought the 2000 version was awkward and ugly. On the other hand I LOVED the 2004 version and would buy one in a second if they were to make it.

It was my understanding when they introduced the 2004 Nomad that they had done extensive engineering on it and that it was a long ways toward production feasability. At least, that is what several reviewers said at the time. Didn't they qoute the (British) designer on this point?

[Satty]

But it's 550 anytime minutes for $59.99 and you might qualify for a discount on the plan depending on where you work. Sound good?

$59.99 for 550 minutes. You're kidding, right? Do people actually buy that plan? Edited April 29, 2006 by Satty

[Croc]

OK, my turn again. Yes, I meant the later Nomad. I saw both the 2000 and 2004 Nomads at shows. I thought the 2000 version was awkward and ugly. On the other hand I LOVED the 2004 version and would buy one in a second if they were to make it.

It was my understanding when they introduced the 2004 Nomad that they had done extensive engineering on it and that it was a long ways toward production feasability. At least, that is what several reviewers said at the time. Didn't they qoute the (British) designer on this point?

I don't think it was a feasible vehicle. The main problem with Kappa is the lack of trunk space. Have you seen the trunk? It's non-existant due to the fuel tank. People with roadsters are much more forgiving of that than, say, an owner of a wagon. You start carrying 4 people you need to carry their stuff. Nomad and Curve both failed at that.

I think some preliminary engineering went into it, but I don't think it was money "wasted" at all.

Edited April 30, 2006 by Croc

[ocnblu]

In your opinion. Everyone, GM fans included, whined no end that the world's number one automaker built average cars for average people for way too long. Kappa has been a bright light, a sign of hope for the future under Bob Lutz.

Your negative attitude toward this platform, which is clearly at least partially fueled by your opinion of Josh, cannot change the fact that it is a success, even with its pure, dedicated sportscar platform (imagine that, a sports car built on its own platform, how odd, as we all know the MX-5 has spawned a gazillion variants.)

[Robert Hall]

$59.99 for 550 minutes.  You're kidding, right?  Do people actually buy that plan?

That's pretty weak..I'm getting 900 minutes for $59.99 with Verizon.

[bowtie_dude]

That's pretty weak..I'm getting 900 minutes for $59.99 with Verizon.

Me and my wife get 750 shared anytime mins for $69.99 with Cingular. Unl mobile to mobile, nights and weekends, and rollover all included.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Over at the CamaroZ28 message board, the talk is that the Camaro may have a base V6, a high output V6, and a 6.2L V8 only in the most expensive version.

http://64.65.63.61/forums/showthread.php?t=447456

I only read the first few pages, but I think I would agree with the majority there. I dont want a HO V6. I want a V8, and I'm not going to pay $30,000 or more, meaning I want a midlevel V8, like the 5.3L. I'll give up a few HP and MPG to get a V8 if I have to. I already have a HO V6, I have a 280hp 3.8 SC, and I'd take a V8 over it anyday. When it gets to the mid $30s for price, I'll just save a little longer and get a Corvette instead. I buy a car on emotion, not on how practical it is. So count me out until GM gets it right.

[evok]

Over at the CamaroZ28 message board, the talk is that the Camaro may have a base V6, a high output V6, and a 6.2L V8 only in the most expensive version.

http://64.65.63.61/forums/showthread.php?t=447456

I try not to take what I read of there to seriously. It is like watching Fox news, it is amusing but taken out of context.

[Northstar]

I try not to take what I read of there to seriously.  It is like watching Fox news, it is amusing but taken out of context.

You have your opinion and I have mine, but guionM has been pretty damn accurate in the past.

[evok]

You have your opinion and I have mine, but guionM has been pretty damn accurate in the past.

Did I name names?

[Northstar]

Did I name names?

No, but he's the one that started the thread and mentioned the V6, HO V6, and 6.2L V8 ehaase mentioned.

[evok]

No, but he's the one that started the thread and mentioned the V6, HO V6, and 6.2L V8 ehaase mentioned.

I have no comment on his information. I just stand by my first post. And my usual caveat - be very careful what you read on the boards. MT, C&D Edmunds and the other rags mags publish a lot of stuff that are based on information taken out of context too. I verify a lot of the BS I read around on the boards and in the mags to see if it is fact.

PS What are the program code for all these rwd programs?

Edited April 30, 2006 by evok

[Trimnell1]

I agree with evok, there are so many "insiders" out there with so much crap info that it makes me laugh. Case in point, one of my customers thinks that he has a lot of inside car info, but the thing is his info comes from talking to the local car salesmen and reading the car mags. When he talks cars, he is so full of misinformation that I don't even bother correcting him anymore. So if I want the real story, I listen to evok and the other proven insiders because they're the ones with the genuine connections and info.

[Guest Josh]

PS What are the program code for all these rwd programs?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I know them and the file I have is dated March of '06. Infact, recheck your Saturn information. :AH-HA_wink:

But, remember that lowest Family Plan we have. It's $59.99 for 550 anytime minutes. Obviously people don't realize we have more than just that, but you get the idea.

[Croc]

In your opinion.  Everyone, GM fans included, whined no end that the world's number one automaker built average cars for average people for way too long.  Kappa has been a bright light, a sign of hope for the future under Bob Lutz.

Your negative attitude toward this platform, which is clearly at least partially fueled by your opinion of Josh, cannot change the fact that it is a success, even with its pure, dedicated sportscar platform (imagine that, a sports car built on its own platform, how odd, as we all know the MX-5 has spawned a gazillion variants.)

No. I do NOT want average vehicles. What does Josh have to do with this? You keep bringing him up, and it is really irritating me because I really couldn't care less about him. Why? Because he owns a Solstice? Ummmmmm...try again.

You really are not very bright if you have read my posts in this topic and think my dislike for the Kappa platform is even partially because of Josh. Last time I checked he didn't rush it through.

Again, you fail to separate the vehicles from the platform. Vehicles are cars. They are built on platforms. I hope the difference is clear now.

The Solstice and SKY are excellent vehicles built on Kappa. Kappa as a platform sucks because it can only support small 2-seat roadsters. If GM makes a vehicle it should do it well. Small 2-seat roadsters turn out well on Kappa because the limitations of Kappa do not pose problems for them. Those segments have special unique attributes that fit perfectly with Kappa. You start trying to build a more practical vehicle on Kappa, and the platform's limitations prevent it from being a world-class vehicle. That is why it sucks: because platforms are expensive in and of themselves to develop, and Kappa just plain isn't as useful as it should be. Are the two vehicles on it excellent? Yes. Would different body styles be as excellent? No. That is why Kappa sucks: it is just too limited.

Now, if you keep bringing up Josh in an effort to try and start &#036;h&#33;, I will just ignore your posts because guess what? you are a waste of time to the enthusiasts here trying to have an intelligent discussion of Kappa.

EDITED TO ADD:

Unlike the MX-5, GM intended for Kappa to spawn a variety of body styles, but because Solstice and SKY were rushed, those other variants are no longer feasible. MX-5 was intended for MX-5. Also, the two companies have completely different situations. The problem is, that in GM's situation, they needed a flexible platform. Flexible manufacturing is the big buzz in the industry. Also, you never addressed my earlier point regarding Nissan/Infiniti. Nissan and Infiniti have multiple vehicles on the same platform, ranging from sports cars, sedans, coupes, and even an SUV. Explain that.

GM cannot afford to waste money when their bread and butter sucks. GM still builds average vehicles and they build them as "values." This is moronic. There is NO aspiration to own a bargain-basement vehicle. GM builds a vehicle for a price, not to be the best in its segment and charge a premium. GM needs to shake the value and "price" mentality with their cars.

Until GM can successfully design and produce mainstream vehicles that are continually best in class and great sellers, they have no business appealing to 20,000 per year sales of roadsters. Hello, those roadsters are NOT going to keep the company afloat. Build a desirable Malibu. Build a Malibu that kicks butt and owns the segment like GM cars did in the 50s and 60s. Show some innovation. GM lacks innovation in its mainstream vehicles. GM used to be innovative back in the day.

Edited April 30, 2006 by Croc

[SimonDavid]

I agree with Croc, Evok etc. An inflexible, roadster-only Kappa, if not a total waste of time, is at least a missed opportunity.

Spending a little more could have yielded a small RWD platform and multiple generations of 1 and 3 series competitors.

GM still has no 3 series competitor on the horizon - Zeta / whatever they are calling it now is too big and heavy. The 3 series is the best selling 4 door sedan in europe - it's not a niche market. I thought / hoped that this was the real reason GM got into Subaru - that they were going to use that WRX platform, but I guess not now.

Also, as a left field idea, I would have thought that instead of shrinking the Corvette for a Miata competitor, they should try and stretch/expand it for a limited volume, top of the line Cadillac ULS.

[evok]

I know them and the file I have is dated March of '06. Infact, recheck your Saturn information.  :AH-HA_wink:

But, remember that lowest Family Plan we have. It's $59.99 for 550 anytime minutes. Obviously people don't realize we have more than just that, but you get the idea.

Than post the codes -

[ocnblu]

A longroof hard top Kappa variant for Chevrolet would be a sweet car, no doubt, even as a two-seater. A Solstice hatchback like the concept would be fantastic.

I haven't seen anything official from GM about the feasibility of these variants. Perhaps now that the experiment has been received well, we'll see more from this platform.

Pontiac, at least, needs a RWD four seater at the bottom of their lineup. Enthusiasts agree on that point. I guess the Torana concept was a car with no platform... it was never made clear to me what platform it was supposed to be on. I hope GM has the foresight to build a RWD sedan/coupe platform smaller than Zeta for the US, Australia and Europe, if not other markets.

As far as I know, this thread was started to celebrate the reported fact that Kappa and Chevrolet Y-body are essentially sold out for the model year, which should be viewed as a good thing. I hope the Kappa cars become as perennial as MX-5 has become for Mazda, despite the tepid, anti-American reviews from the European press.

Croc, I apologize for irritating you. Perhaps your local CVS pharmacy has some ointment for that.

[Mr.Krinkle]

Croc, I apologize for irritating you.  Perhaps your local CVS pharmacy has some ointment for that.

ha. thats funny. do you think they have anything too shrink evoks inflated head.

ha hah.

[Mr.Krinkle]

I agree with evok, there are so many "insiders" out there with so much crap info that it makes me laugh.  Case in point, one of my customers thinks that he has a lot of inside car info, but the thing is his info comes from talking to the local car salesmen and reading the car mags.  When he talks cars, he is so full of misinformation that I don't even bother correcting him anymore.  So if I want the real story, I listen to evok and the other proven insiders because they're the ones with the genuine connections and info.

thats a suprise.

get a pair.

who do you ask when yourre trying to figure out if you want the soup or salad.

unbelievable...slurp slurp.

[enzl]

thats a suprise.

get a pair.

who do you ask when yourre trying to figure out if you want the soup or salad.

unbelievable...slurp slurp.

Projecting, Mr. K?

Why not back off and let the men have an intelligent conversation. Is GM like your mommy....no mother jokes? You seem more like the kid that would sulk in the corner hitting his head against the wall than the kid that would fight back, but that's between you and your doctor....

I think I can speak for Evok and others when I say that the Kappa roadsters are great, but we are wistful with what could have been...

...Imagine Pontiac coming out with a volume, 1 and 3 series competitor with US styling cues, at 20% less sticker...you'd easily sell 200K and we could stop the insanity of calling the G6 or GP a sports sedan...they are blue plate specials with GM's interpretation of 'exciting, sporty' styling.

I for one would love a 4 seat $20K 1series that didn't look like the abomitable effort BMW is trying to pawn off in Europe.

[Mr.Krinkle]

Projecting, Mr. K?

Why not back off and let the men have an intelligent conversation. Is GM like your mommy....no mother jokes? You seem more like the kid that would sulk in the corner hitting his head against the wall than the kid that would fight back, but that's between you and your doctor....

I think I can speak for Evok and others when I say that the Kappa roadsters are great, but we are wistful with what could have been...

...Imagine Pontiac coming out with a volume, 1 and 3 series competitor with US styling cues, at 20% less sticker...you'd easily sell 200K and we could stop the insanity of calling the G6 or GP a sports sedan...they are blue plate specials with GM's interpretation of 'exciting, sporty' styling.

I for one would love a 4 seat $20K 1series that didn't look like the abomitable effort BMW is trying to pawn off in Europe.

yourre funny.

projecting? did you take an intro to psyc class?

the kappas are great and would be great even if you didnt agree.

do you know what megalomaniac means?

come up with something original or pertinent and i might respond to you again.

your 3 star vocabulary doesnt impress me either.