ATS Results are in and They are Good Very Good!

[A Horse With No Name]

...and let's talk about BMW quality issues, which are VERY real and VERY troubling. I have a customer that has always been a GM gal, she is a chef at one of the nicest restaurants in Columbus. Her Boyfriend of 4 years is a good guy, but has always driven BMW. boyfriend's X5 has been in the shop 4 times for serious repair in the last 4 months. $2900 in repair bills in JULY ALONE!

She finally convinced him to test drive a new GM product, and Wednesday night he bought a new GMC Acadia and loves it. He is sorry he didn't do it sooner. LOTS of BMW fanbois in my local group of friends, automotive and otherwise....LOTS of quality control problems.

One local 7 series owner had 9K in repairs in one summer....7 series only had 68K on the clock....and even the non performance mags are getting hate letters to the editor about how unhappy people are with the latest crop of BMW's.

[smk4565]

Mercedes makes the A and B-class for markets that request that type of vehicle. If gas were $8 per gallon here, how many V8 trucks and SUVs would be sold? In 2011 a lot of countries in Europe were over $9 per gallon, before dropping some this year. There are parts of the world where people expect 50 mpg from a family car or luxury car, that is why Mercedes builds that car.

[A Horse With No Name]

...which is a case for OHC..it is hard to package a 4 cly OHV motor with 4 vales per cyl, GM will need both it's excellent LS series motors and OHC 4's and 6's to move forward.

[smk4565]

And IIRC the FWD SRX outsells the RWD SRX...an awful lot of what we value here is not valued by the 15 million new car buyers we will have in our country this year.

Because the FWD SRX is $10,000 cheaper than the rwd one. The Malibu also outsells the CTS, maybe the CTS should go FWD and get a $28,995 base price so they can get more sales.

[Z-06]

Mercedes makes the A and B-class for markets that request that type of vehicle. If gas were $8 per gallon here, how many V8 trucks and SUVs would be sold? In 2011 a lot of countries in Europe were over $9 per gallon, before dropping some this year. There are parts of the world where people expect 50 mpg from a family car or luxury car, that is why Mercedes builds that car.

GM makes trucks with pushrods for markets that requests that type of vehicle. If gas was indeed $8 per gallon, then GM already has smaller efficient engines to cover that. What GM lacks are (1) Diesel and (2) Full Hybrid in its portfolio. Don't blindly make arguments dude - but then again it is your specialty.

[A Horse With No Name]

Neat link, 4 valve heads for OHV for 351 motor....

http://www.themustangnews.com/content/2011/05/4-valve-heads-for-your-windsor-small-block-mustang/

Off topic, I know...

Edited August 19, 2012 by A Horse With No Name

[Z-06]

And IIRC the FWD SRX outsells the RWD SRX...an awful lot of what we value here is not valued by the 15 million new car buyers we will have in our country this year.

Because the FWD SRX is $10,000 cheaper than the rwd one. The Malibu also outsells the CTS, maybe the CTS should go FWD and get a $28,995 base price so they can get more sales.

But then RX is also FWD, costs equivalent to X3, GLK and yet sells more. What is that for?

[A Horse With No Name]

Mercedes makes the A and B-class for markets that request that type of vehicle. If gas were $8 per gallon here, how many V8 trucks and SUVs would be sold? In 2011 a lot of countries in Europe were over $9 per gallon, before dropping some this year. There are parts of the world where people expect 50 mpg from a family car or luxury car, that is why Mercedes builds that car.

GM makes trucks with pushrods for markets that requests that type of vehicle. If gas was indeed $8 per gallon, then GM already has smaller efficient engines to cover that. What GM lacks are (1) Diesel and (2) Full Hybrid in its portfolio. Don't blindly make arguments dude - but then again it is your specialty.

And starting to solve diesel with upcoming Cruze....

[hyperv6]

BMW is doing ok it is the the scale of economics that it takes to develop new engines, transmissions and platforms. BMW real issue is it is a rather small company and to bring out a new platform and engine is a major outlay for the number of cars they build.

I read a while back in the Wall Street Journel on how the larger strong companies will get stronger and the smaller yet strong automakers will get weaker unless they partner with another larger company or merge. We have seen the hold out Porsche finally give in and go with VW as have a lot of other well known smaller makes. In the story they said even companies like Honda would need help if world economics did not improve. The said to keep profits up they will need to share development cost or work. We have also just seen that with Subaru and Toyota. Now BMW has signed an agreement with Toyota.

In other words many companies will need a dance partner.

As for GM and Ford on the Toyota plan? These companies are just giving the market what it wants in many of the mainstream segments. The love affair with the car has declined and today many buyers just want an appliance. The car companies are trying to entice with more styling at Ford and GM vs the plain cars Toyota panders but reputations and happy repeat buyers are just looking for quality and MPG keep coming back.

As for the push rods :LS the only reason it is still with us is they have found a way to make it work and still be relevent. Also they are fairly cheap to build vs some other engines. They may not be as cheap as the old SBC was but over a million trucks a year the savings add up.

I just wish we had more info on the new engine. I would like to see where all the changes are going to be. It is hard to comment on this engine when we know so little about it. I expect it will be good but the pick up market is still in for a lot of changes. The next gen pick up will lose some weight but the gen to come after it may see some radical changes.

[Drew Dowdell]

I think the ATS should get a 3800 V6 Supercharged instead of the 2.0T engine or 3.6 V6. BMW, Audi and Mercedes are all wrong by offering turbo fours, people really want a 3.8 liter V6 in their compact luxury sedan.

The 3800, with modern add-ons and made from aluminum would make a fine alternative to the 2.5 with better torque and similar fuel economy.

The big thing that held the 3800 and 3900 back was the 4Speed auto.

[balthazar]

The Malibu also outsells the CTS, maybe the CTS should go FWD and get a $28,995 base price so they can get more sales.

Why not; mercedees is bringing out FWD cars in the $30K price range merely to "sell more".

[Robert Hall]

The Malibu also outsells the CTS, maybe the CTS should go FWD and get a $28,995 base price so they can get more sales.

Why not; mercedees is bringing out FWD cars in the $30K price range merely to "sell more".

The scary thought is a Caddy derived from the Cruze or Sonic would probably sell well. I hope GM doesn't stoop that low...leave Buick for the FWD entry-lux models.

[hyperv6]

The Malibu also outsells the CTS, maybe the CTS should go FWD and get a $28,995 base price so they can get more sales.

Why not; mercedees is bringing out FWD cars in the $30K price range merely to "sell more".

The scary thought is a Caddy derived from the Cruze or Sonic would probably sell well. I hope GM doesn't stoop that low...leave Buick for the FWD entry-lux models.

They are working hard to make this happen now. It will take time but all three divisions will grow appart over time. Buick will be the volume Luxury brand and Cadillac will get more expensive and lower volume brand. A Cadillac should not be a car just anyone should own. Benz and BMW should avoid this as it nearly killed Porsche back in the 80's.

[hyperv6]

How about we bring back the Iron Duke for the CTS too. I am sure there would be a lot of appeal for that one to come back oil leaks and all.

[Robert Hall]

How about we bring back the Iron Duke for the CTS too. I am sure there would be a lot of appeal for that one to come back oil leaks and all.

Well, the ATS is going to have the 2.5...same displacement as the Iron Duke..

[Drew Dowdell]

Every engine has issues at some point. BMWs are getting the rep for high dollar engine failures.

We know about the cracked plastic intake manifolds, tell me, performance wise, how is the 2.5 a better engine than the 3900?

[regfootball]

Even a base ATS is probably as quick as a 3900 equipped GM car.

[A Horse With No Name]

Even a base ATS is probably as quick as a 3900 equipped GM car.

Agreed, we are beating the engine thing to death....and thanks Olds for acknowledging that BMW has high dollar motor issues.

[ocnblu]

I'm hoping this new 2.5 is an all-around nice engine, as it is ideal as a base motor for the new Colorado/Canyon.

[balthazar]

Mercedes makes the A and B-class for markets that request that type of vehicle. If gas were $8 per gallon here, how many V8 trucks and SUVs would be sold? In 2011 a lot of countries in Europe were over $9 per gallon, before dropping some this year. There are parts of the world where people expect 50 mpg from a family car or luxury car, that is why Mercedes builds that car.

No markets are "requesting" that type of vehicle from mercedees, it's a pure volume grab, nothing more. An unchecked vanity- the same that approved the tagline "In a perfect world, there'd be a mercedes in every driveway". It's mercedees following Cadillac of 1981.

And fuel in europe has been notoriously high for years & years; if M-B is just NOW getting around to answering the market, it's already "too late" as the wags say about anything Cadillac proposes.

Mercedees, has one of the lowest MPG portfolios out there, last time I looked I believe it was something like 16 models rated 15 or below in the city. Why would anyone turn to M-B looking for good mileage??

[Robert Hall]

Mercedes makes the A and B-class for markets that request that type of vehicle. If gas were $8 per gallon here, how many V8 trucks and SUVs would be sold? In 2011 a lot of countries in Europe were over $9 per gallon, before dropping some this year. There are parts of the world where people expect 50 mpg from a family car or luxury car, that is why Mercedes builds that car.

No markets are "requesting" that type of vehicle from mercedees, it's a pure volume grab, nothing more. An unchecked vanity- the same that approved the tagline "In a perfect world, there'd be a mercedes in every driveway". It's mercedees following Cadillac of 1981.

And fuel in europe has been notoriously high for years & years; if M-B is just NOW getting around to answering the market, it's already "too late" as the wags say about anything Cadillac proposes.

Actually, they aren't 'just NOW responding'...the A-class has been out in Europe for over a decade, the B-class close to it...and why do you always misspell 'Mercedes'? Weird...check your 'facts'..

As far as gas mileage, they have plenty of diesels to offset the low volume AMG models..

Edited August 20, 2012 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[balthazar]

Discussion gets rapidly out of hand when including every market in the world, I default to discussing M-B's #1 focus; the U.S. market.

A- & B- have not been sold here before (they're not news elsewhere- but they are here). The old C230 hoopty was pretty close, tho at least that was RWD.

AFA mileage, M-B offers 4 rated @ 12, 1 @ 13, 4 @ 14, and 4 @ 15. The SL65 & GL63 assuredly aren't going to be getting over 15, so that would be 15 models.

After that, there's 5 @ 16, 4 @ 17, 1 @ 18 and 6 @ 19, for a total of 31 models rated under 20 city.

They offer 7 rated between 20 and 23 city. Pretty pitiful, IMO, for all the supposed billions/yr they spend.

'Factual' enough for you?

[A Horse With No Name]

pitiful indeed. Although some guys here, like Sixty Eight who doesn't post here much anymore, are M-B fanboi's....I am not.

[hyperv6]

How about we bring back the Iron Duke for the CTS too. I am sure there would be a lot of appeal for that one to come back oil leaks and all.

Well, the ATS is going to have the 2.5...same displacement as the Iron Duke..

Yes and ATS will have 4 tires and a steering wheel on it just like a Chevette too.

[Drew Dowdell]

Maybe GM could sell Opel to Mercedes so they'd have a pedestrian brand to peddle.

[hyperv6]

No VW as they nearly have purchased everyone else.

[Robert Hall]

Maybe GM could sell Opel to Mercedes so they'd have a pedestrian brand to peddle.

Well, they could expand Smart, but I'm not sure if they can do it given how dismal Smart has done so far... Chrysler Corp was their other attempt at volume brands, but they didn't manage that very well...

[Drew Dowdell]

No VW as they nearly have purchased everyone else.

Well that doesn't address the issue of MB missing a pedestrian brand.

[balthazar]

^ It really is, given it's uber-high volume aspirations.

They need to split the brand: put anything below the C into it, and for God's sake's re-rebadge the Sprinter back as a 'freightliner', it's embarrassing.

All the commercial mercedees should be 'freightliners'. No WAY should a garbage truck wear the same emblem as the s-class. It's so disjointed.

[Robert Hall]

All the commercial mercedees should be 'freightliners'. No WAY should a garbage truck wear the same emblem as the s-class. It's so disjointed.

Why? They don't seem to have a problem w/ that in Europe. M-B badged semi truck tractors, garbage trucks, Sprinter vans, etc...been that way for many decades.

Edited August 20, 2012 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[hyperv6]

No VW as they nearly have purchased everyone else.

Well that doesn't address the issue of MB missing a pedestrian brand.

No then VW buys them. I am just kidding on all of this.

[balthazar]

All the commercial mercedees should be 'freightliners'. No WAY should a garbage truck wear the same emblem as the s-class. It's so disjointed.

Why? They don't seem to have a problem w/ that in Europe. M-B badged semi truck tractors, garbage trucks, Sprinter vans, etc...been that way for many decades.

The U.S. is FAR more superficial. And I believe the U.S. is the biggest profit source for M-B (or am I thinking of toyoyo?) At least the big trucks have been separated AFA marketing goes, but the Sprinter, a bare-bones, refrigerator-white cargo van, is on the websites & in the dealerships. I would love to know why Corporate felt it needed to be rebadged from Freightliner (well, I actually DO know the reason...) Globally, the corporate marketing needs an overhaul.

Per the usual internet forum wags, these issues are a "problem" that needs to be "fixed". Think of it like how GMC is a "problem" for some folk's comprehension.

Or put it this way: think of the reaction if Cadillac were to sell a refrigerator-white cargo van, a rebadged GMC cube van with stamped steel wheels & no interior.

Bottom line is mercedes is spreading itself thinner & thinner, trying to be 'everything to everyone' and riding on the good association with their nameplate. Long term, that's going to cause image problems- they're not thinking long-term. They are spread wide enough that there is an obvious need for another division to maintain image with the hi-buck sedans. No doubt they'll be gun-shy a while after the maybach failure.

Edited August 20, 2012 by balthazar

[dwightlooi]

The big difference is that Mercedes do not have different brands for different segments and neither does BMW for that matter. VW-Audi does and so does GM. So it is not un-natural that there are M-B garbage trucks and trailers. However, if GM has Cadillac branded garbage trucks that kind of defeats the purpose of having the separate Chevy, GMC, Buick and Cadillac brands.

[hyperv6]

Benz has been a do all be all in most other countries around the world for a long, long time. Here in the states we have only had limited contact with all that Benz has and does. It was only 50 years ago they were imported by Studibaker as only a Luxury car.

When my dad lived in Europe he told me how Benz was a car or truck that was considered more than just a Luxury brand vs what most Americans considered it. He told me how they were used for all sorts of duties and they were all not cars for the wealthy. Over there a Benz truck was not anything anyone even notices as odd. Same for many other countries around the world.

The Fact is Americans for the most part have a distorted vew of Benz as most rest of the world.

[smk4565]

Mercedes (Mercedes brand cars, no Smart or Maybach or Sprinter) sold 1,261,000 cars in 2011. Only 245,000 of those were in the United States. They don't rely on any one country or region for survival, they have sales all over the world and growth sectors all over the world. As far as trucks go, their trucks are the best in Europe, the Actros wins truck of the year frequently.

Mercedes past 3 years were the best in company history, at the same time, Lexus, Acura, Cadillac, and Lincoln are having some of the worst years in company history. If Mercedes business plan were so flawed, others would catch them. But as it is, the others just keep falling behind.

[Drew Dowdell]

Of the 1,016,000 Mercedes that were sold elsewhere, how many are taxi cabs, how many are in limo service, how many are executive car sharing (modern company car fleets), and how many are rentals?

The numbers may shock you.

[smk4565]

Of the 1,016,000 Mercedes that were sold elsewhere, how many are taxi cabs, how many are in limo service, how many are executive car sharing (modern company car fleets), and how many are rentals?

The numbers may shock you.

Yet Daimler set a company record with $8 billion in net profit in 2011. That is $3,791 per vehicle, compared to General Motors who made $844 per vehicle sold in 2011. GM sold 7 million more vehicles than Daimler last year, yet Daimler made more money, so those taxis must be pretty profitable. Again, the Daimler business plan works, it may not work for everyone else, but it works for them.

[Drew Dowdell]

Of the 1,016,000 Mercedes that were sold elsewhere, how many are taxi cabs, how many are in limo service, how many are executive car sharing (modern company car fleets), and how many are rentals?

The numbers may shock you.

Yet Daimler set a company record with $8 billion in net profit in 2011. That is $3,791 per vehicle, compared to General Motors who made $844 per vehicle sold in 2011. GM sold 7 million more vehicles than Daimler last year, yet Daimler made more money, so those taxis must be pretty profitable. Again, the Daimler business plan works, it may not work for everyone else, but it works for them.

Then why are they pursuing the "everyone else" business plan?

[hyperv6]

We may not want to dismiss the Taxi Benz and Police Benz too quickly. They were filling these rolls year before they were the dumping ground for slow movers. My dad said they would buy the Benz back in the 50's to use as taxis and police cars as they would out last anything else made in Germany and most else in Europe. Lets face it there were few good Euro cars for many years and even the big names often took a lot of up keep. Benz and VW were two of the most reliable cars in Euro history.

While today they may fill in more as fleet sales many in Europe still buy them yet today as that is what many have used for years in many cities.

The Germans and others don't look at them as Crown Vics.

When looking at the Euro market you have to stop thinking American. This has been a lot of Cadillacs issue.

[balthazar]

The big difference is that Mercedes do not have different brands for different segments and neither does BMW for that matter. VW-Audi does and so does GM. So it is not un-natural that there are M-B garbage trucks and trailers.

Incorrect, sir. Daimler-Benz acquired Freightliner in 1981! Since then, D-B has also acquired American-LaFrance, the AeroMax HD truck division from Ford, Thomas-Bilt buses, Western-Star HD trucks, Detroit Diesel, and a number of other, smaller companies. D-B has had a PLETHORA of brand names to plate their commercial trucks. Instead they shave good will off their luxury car name.

[Robert Hall]

The big difference is that Mercedes do not have different brands for different segments and neither does BMW for that matter. VW-Audi does and so does GM. So it is not un-natural that there are M-B garbage trucks and trailers.

Incorrect, sir. Daimler-Benz acquired Freightliner in 1981! Since then, D-B has also acquired American-LaFrance, the AeroMax HD truck division from Ford, Thomas-Bilt buses, Western-Star HD trucks, Detroit Diesel, and a number of other, smaller companies. D-B has had a PLETHORA of brand names to plate their commercial trucks.

They have had M-B branded commercial trucks for decades before those acqusitions, though.

Instead they shave good will off their luxury car name.

Prove it....one can argue having the brand name on heavy commercial vehicles enhances their reputation of longevity and toughness...

Edited August 21, 2012 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[balthazar]

They have had M-B branded commercial trucks for decades before those acqusitions, though.

Yes; when they DIDN'T have another brand name to use there. D-B HAS had names to use for over 30 years- or since 'ancient history times no one remembers' as you've often said.

>>Instead they shave good will off their luxury car name.<<

Prove it....

See above.

Also see earlier post where I remind readers that the Sprinter was originally badged a 'Freightliner' in the U.S., but the exact same van is now a 'mercedes'.

Edited August 21, 2012 by balthazar

[Robert Hall]

Also see earlier post where I remind readers that the Sprinter was originally badged a 'Freightliner' in the U.S., but the exact same van is now a 'mercedes'.

And it was a Dodge also.

[balthazar]

yeeeessss.... and now that too is a 'mercedes' (in effect; I'm aware of the circumstances).

[smk4565]

We may not want to dismiss the Taxi Benz and Police Benz too quickly. They were filling these rolls year before they were the dumping ground for slow movers. My dad said they would buy the Benz back in the 50's to use as taxis and police cars as they would out last anything else made in Germany and most else in Europe. Lets face it there were few good Euro cars for many years and even the big names often took a lot of up keep. Benz and VW were two of the most reliable cars in Euro history.

While today they may fill in more as fleet sales many in Europe still buy them yet today as that is what many have used for years in many cities.

The Germans and others don't look at them as Crown Vics.

When looking at the Euro market you have to stop thinking American. This has been a lot of Cadillacs issue.

I agree, we look down on taxis in this country because they are crappy Crown Vics. The view is likely different in Europe, and Mercedes are bought for longevity. In Greece, a 1976 Mercedes 240D taxi logged 2.6 million miles, before the owner traded it to the Mercedes museum in exchange for a new C-class. Mercedes has a reputation of being built to last forever, Cadillac still has some baggage of being what old people in Florida drive.

[Z-06]

We may not want to dismiss the Taxi Benz and Police Benz too quickly. They were filling these rolls year before they were the dumping ground for slow movers. My dad said they would buy the Benz back in the 50's to use as taxis and police cars as they would out last anything else made in Germany and most else in Europe. Lets face it there were few good Euro cars for many years and even the big names often took a lot of up keep. Benz and VW were two of the most reliable cars in Euro history.

While today they may fill in more as fleet sales many in Europe still buy them yet today as that is what many have used for years in many cities.

The Germans and others don't look at them as Crown Vics.

When looking at the Euro market you have to stop thinking American. This has been a lot of Cadillacs issue.

I agree, we look down on taxis in this country because they are crappy Crown Vics. The view is likely different in Europe, and Mercedes are bought for longevity. In Greece, a 1976 Mercedes 240D taxi logged 2.6 million miles, before the owner traded it to the Mercedes museum in exchange for a new C-class. Mercedes has a reputation of being built to last forever, Cadillac still has some baggage of being what old people in Florida drive.

WTF has longevity has to compare with perception of "baggage of being what old people drive in FL"? Do you proof before you post?

[smk4565]

We may not want to dismiss the Taxi Benz and Police Benz too quickly. They were filling these rolls year before they were the dumping ground for slow movers. My dad said they would buy the Benz back in the 50's to use as taxis and police cars as they would out last anything else made in Germany and most else in Europe. Lets face it there were few good Euro cars for many years and even the big names often took a lot of up keep. Benz and VW were two of the most reliable cars in Euro history.

While today they may fill in more as fleet sales many in Europe still buy them yet today as that is what many have used for years in many cities.

The Germans and others don't look at them as Crown Vics.

When looking at the Euro market you have to stop thinking American. This has been a lot of Cadillacs issue.

I agree, we look down on taxis in this country because they are crappy Crown Vics. The view is likely different in Europe, and Mercedes are bought for longevity. In Greece, a 1976 Mercedes 240D taxi logged 2.6 million miles, before the owner traded it to the Mercedes museum in exchange for a new C-class. Mercedes has a reputation of being built to last forever, Cadillac still has some baggage of being what old people in Florida drive.

WTF has longevity has to compare with perception of "baggage of being what old people drive in FL"? Do you proof before you post?

I am just saying that Mercedes, whether it be here or in Europe, has a reputation for being built to last; they have a strong image. Cadillac still has some old geezer image that they were saddled with in the 80s, 90s, and even 2000s with the DTS. Most of the baby boomer generation (the ones buying luxury cars now) grew up with Cadillac and Lincoln being what their parents drove. Cadillac's average buyer is 63, Mercedes 54, BMW 50, Audi 48. So it does seem that the younger buyers go for the German cars over Cadillac.

And in Europe Cadillac is a damaged or even unknown brand. That is a massive uphill battle to break into there.

[dwightlooi]

And in Europe Cadillac is a damaged or even unknown brand. That is a massive uphill battle to break into there.

Unknown is better than damaged. In a way, the lack of presence over the last two decades is a good thing.

[Robert Hall]

Reality is complex, as is perception.

[hyperv6]

I have to agree they are more unknow or just know as what they were 40 years ago. For the most part they are thought of a floaty large cars with lots of chrome. Now if they were familier with the 80's Cadillac then it would be much more a case of damaged.

The key is for Cadillac to get the new CTS and LTS out and be smart to grow the brand in Europe. There is a 10 year plan in the states and I suspect they may have a 20 year plan in Europe. Those in power now know they are not going to take the lead in 5 years in Europe from the others there now and they know it will take time to build image and respect with new and proper product.

The ATS, CTS and LTS will be good but they will need a small FWD car for at least Europe. With the new A class getting good reviews and w BMW based on the Mini platform coming Cadillac will need something better than a rebadged Opel or Saab to compete. The ATS has shown they can think Euro while still building a car that is clearly American. They will need to do the same with the small car as with gas prices and poor economy in Europe they will go after these small cars like crazy.

I think that GM finally understands that you can't pass off what may appear Euro in the states as being Euro in Europe. The ATS appear to be a very good global effort as it has what each market needs here in NA and in Euro and Asia.