ATS Results are in and They are Good Very Good!

[hyperv6]

They did not uder shoot as the ATS has proven to have best inclass in most areas. For once GM did not try to match BMW or Benz. Again you need to do a little homework on just what is really going on inside GM today and understand the changes that are now in place. Lutz changed many things in GM and how many of the engineers and designers are no longer restricted to do as they are told. In other words if it need done then do it and don't wait to be told to do it. The ATS is the first full car to show this openess to enabled engineering. .

What has the ATS proved, they haven't even sold one of them yet. BMW over the past 30 years has proved the 3-series is the best car in that class. They did a lot of things right with the ATS, but Lexus also had 2 tries with the IS, and aimed for the correct size, weight, horsepower, etc, and had a shelf full of JD Power awards saying how they build the most reliable car, and they failed. The ATS may be good, I'd like to drive one to find out, but the ATS doesn't have the badge of BMW or Mercedes. If you buy an ATS you still have to justify why you didn't buy a BMW or Benz instead.

Ok then lets just shut Cadillac down and just sell Chevy Sonic's! Why bother if GM is doomed to fail as you clearly point out.

The first step in this deal is to build a car that is as good or better in all areas. To compete it takes product and great product. So far from what it looks the press has declared Cadillac as being as good or better in most areas with the ATS.

Second you need to do a hell of a lot of good marketing. Once you have great product you need to get the message out and Sell, Sell, Sell. Image has to be built and earned as you can not just sit there and wait for it to happen.

Third you need to follow it up with more great product that is better in most areas as the cars it needs to compete in. This reinforces that you are real and enhances the image more.

Finally you need to keep this up for years as a car companies image is not built in one year on one model. It take time to earn trust and for people to learn that you are the real deal. BMW was not built on the first 5 year of the 318. It took time and marketing that centered on Freude am Fahren, The Ultimate Driving Machine. This was one of the most succsessful marketing campains. Add to that the false image that the Germans build anything better stero type and you have a winning formula that built itself up over the years to what we have now.

No one said rebuilding Cadillac would be cheap, easy or happen in just a few years. This battle will be taken one model at a time and then time to repair the damaged history of the many wasted years. It can be done as other have done it. None of them did it overnight and not all of them made it. As of now GM is doing it right and now it is time for them to just stick to this and keep moving the ball forward.

As for Lexus that is a whole different story. Most Asian MFG do not have an idea of what many customers want and they have little heritage to draw from. They can build a better V twin but it is still not a Harley. They can build a better mid engine sports car and it is still not a Ferrari. Lexus lost their way as they were a well built car but they had no soul. Then Toyota started to take short cuts and fall to the rebadged habits that hurt Cadillac and Lincoln. They have learned from this and will now also start to build better products. BUt they lack two things Cadillac can sell.

Cadillac has many years of glory heritage they can use.

Cadillac also has the image of being an American car. While this has hurt in the past there is a growing demand for things to be American again. This is not lost on the automakers as so many Asian comanies are now trying to show that they have as much content as the American MFG cars do. They want to make you think Hyundai is a Georgia car and Honda is an Ohio car. Buy American scares them. If you note even the fast food places are into this now with Wendys promoting they use North American Beef. This movment is growing and Ford and GM will use it to their advantage.

Lets face it we only have one true fully American owned luxury car company anymore.

So if you think this is a done deal with just the ATS you again need to learn more about what is going on at GM and how things really work in the real world. The ATS is proof that GM can do it and the CTS will confirm it once it is here. The next challange is the marking and the ATS marketing looks good so far. I think as time goes on this will be fun to watch after watching the years of decline.

[hyperv6]

Well, if Cadillac builds this car as a lease car, it will match Benz and BMW. If it builds it as a car to purchase, it will match Cadillac. I would rather purchase a car than lease it, because after the free maintenance plan is overwith, which car would you rather pay to keep on the road?

The problem with no leases is that the Luxury segment lives on them. Lets face it if you sold cars to only people who really can afford them it would cut sales in half. Many of these people want to enhance their image with the image of a car that says you made it. The trouble is many of them have not yet made it or ever will.

These are the same people who buy the McMansion with only enough furniture to fill hald of it. They also lack curtains or blinds on those custom made widows that they can not afford. But they all have a Leased BMW in the drive and a Large SUV.

We have to understand we live in a society where everyone wants to be or look like a Millionaire but they want to all shop at Walmart. Sorry it just does not work that way.

So while I too would love to see leases go away they are here to stay as a profit sale is a profit sale and they are too much a part of the luxury segment anymore.

Besides they all are expensive to keep on the road anymore.

[ocnblu]

hmmm... not my point, hyper.

[smk4565]

I still find the ATS to be a bit bland looking, it just doesn't scream performance, luxury or expensive when I look at it. Maybe it is all photos with red cars that make it look cheap, I don't know. They have a lot of the right ideas as far as size, weight, a 320 hp V6, etc. There are a lot of things to like about the ATS, but even if it is as good as the Germans, and they have good marketing, most will still buy a German car because of image alone. They have a big hill to climb, especially with the CTS when they move it up the price ladder. I just fear that the ATS will be a solid B+ effort, and a B+ effort works in a segment with few players like minivan, or against dated cars like Corolla and Civic, but Cadillac needs and A++ when going against the car that dominated a segment for 30 years.

[hyperv6]

I still find the ATS to be a bit bland looking, it just doesn't scream performance, luxury or expensive when I look at it. Maybe it is all photos with red cars that make it look cheap, I don't know. They have a lot of the right ideas as far as size, weight, a 320 hp V6, etc. There are a lot of things to like about the ATS, but even if it is as good as the Germans, and they have good marketing, most will still buy a German car because of image alone. They have a big hill to climb, especially with the CTS when they move it up the price ladder. I just fear that the ATS will be a solid B+ effort, and a B+ effort works in a segment with few players like minivan, or against dated cars like Corolla and Civic, but Cadillac needs and A++ when going against the car that dominated a segment for 30 years.

For one this sound like you have not seen the car in person yet so that accounts for a lot.

Second there is a hill to climb but it not one they can't climb.

Third the ATS may not be a A+ but it is a good solid A with the review. Cadillac just needs A efforts to make their point. The fact is no one can do a A++ in this segment as no one could afford the car. Even BMW and Benz have been B+ at best with many of their new models. How often anymore has Jeremy Clarkson even stated a list of hates on his beloved Benz.

In my book A beats B+.

[regfootball]

Catera>CTS1>CTS2>ATS, 4 generations now of a Caddy that is not a floater, it's about what, 15 years now? Cadillac has had a bunch of cars now that have not been bad drivers, closer to 20 years if you include the 92 STS.

The ATS will represent a product that is indeed competitive with the douchebag mobiles from a driving standpoint without apology.

The marketing and image part, Cadillac is really trying not to tap into the douchebag bunch. But still they want luxo shoppers as well as their own Cadillac and GM fans. ATS seems to walk that line nicely so far. The XTS is not such a car.

Leasing is important for numbers and many lux buyers prefer to lease. The real benefit of leasing is the steady flow of people trading in and re-buying. The dealer can then make dough on the used and a new one instead of people hanging on to the car forever. Lightly used cars are a great entry point into the brand for a lot of younger or first time buyers. Cadillac needs to do that to be financially happy like the BMW's.

Edited July 23, 2012 by regfootball

[regfootball]

http://www.insidelin...-full-test.html

http://www.motortren...ats_first_test/

http://www.caranddri...st-drive-review

http://www.roadandtrack.com/tests/drives/2013-cadillac-ats

Edited July 23, 2012 by regfootball

[balthazar]

Maybe it is all photos with red cars that make it look cheap, I don't know.

Yes, quite; the color red makes anything look cheap. Don't forget the black of the tires, too!

>>"We gazed upon the Cadillac ATS in person, with the words “It’s gorgeous” on the tip of our tongue. It looks quite a lot like the macho CTS sedan, only smaller, and with an overall image that feels simply more elegant. With elements like the high, rising beltline combined with an arching roof and sweeping lighting features, it definitely shares a lot of the same DNA as other Cadillacs, but with a personality all its own: the smart, athletic younger sibling with a promising future ahead of it."<<

[regfootball]

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/07/23/2013-cadillac-ats-first-drive-review-video/

Autoblog was jerks.....

[Drew Dowdell]

http://www.autoblog....e-review-video/

Autoblog was jerks.....

"The naturally aspirated four-cylinder idles smoothly enough, though that's thanks largely to some cleverness in the engine mounts."

no... it totally has nothing to do the fact that it is a brand new engine that was designed with NHV control in mind...

"We fully expected the turbo four-cylinder to be the sweet spot in the ATS line, and while it feels properly quick, the engine still lacks the buttery refinement of offerings from Audi"

... uh... has the dude actually driven a 2.0T Audi? Fun engines, sure, but I don't dare call them "buttery"

"On the street, Sport Mode simply devolves into a button to make the transmission worse. The overly sensitive programming will kick down a gear and hold it on mild freeway onramps, sticking the transmission in third or fourth gear and keeping it there long enough for us to wonder if we've broken something. In the end, it does exactly what shift logic shouldn't do: make the driver aware of the transmission."

.... you mean that when you drive normally in sport mode, you don't like the way the car is performing? My CTS had this sport mode... it was meant solely for hard driving situations. Put it in sport mode and drive it like you stole it, otherwise, let the transmission stay in normal mode.

[G. David Felt]

http://www.autoblog....e-review-video/

Autoblog was jerks.....

I actually have to disagree with you, I felt the whole story was a fair assessment of the ATS. We all felt the base 4 banger was the entry price value leader. It is just sad that the writer bangs it without mentioning that BMW and Audi also have their price leader.

Over all the rest of the car was very positively reviewed.

[G. David Felt]

http://www.autoblog....e-review-video/

Autoblog was jerks.....

"The naturally aspirated four-cylinder idles smoothly enough, though that's thanks largely to some cleverness in the engine mounts."

no... it totally has nothing to do the fact that it is a brand new engine that was designed with NHV control in mind...

"We fully expected the turbo four-cylinder to be the sweet spot in the ATS line, and while it feels properly quick, the engine still lacks the buttery refinement of offerings from Audi"

... uh... has the dude actually driven a 2.0T Audi? Fun engines, sure, but I don't dare call them "buttery"

"On the street, Sport Mode simply devolves into a button to make the transmission worse. The overly sensitive programming will kick down a gear and hold it on mild freeway onramps, sticking the transmission in third or fourth gear and keeping it there long enough for us to wonder if we've broken something. In the end, it does exactly what shift logic shouldn't do: make the driver aware of the transmission."

.... you mean that when you drive normally in sport mode, you don't like the way the car is performing? My CTS had this sport mode... it was meant solely for hard driving situations. Put it in sport mode and drive it like you stole it, otherwise, let the transmission stay in normal mode.

Very true I agree with both your statements, my CTS with sport mode is awesome when I drive it hard the way it was engineered.

All luxury vendors have price value engines and I have yet to meet one that is truly buttery, I would say the writer would have done well to avoid making that statement about engines.

[hyperv6]

One thing GM and Cadillac needs to do is create engines with their own tune and trim. It is not realistic to do one off engines for Cadillac but they could take these engines and get a little more power from them and trim them better than just plastic covers to set them apart from Chevy.

GM and Cadillac can afford to make this move to set them a level above the rest of the GM line. Hell I have nearly the same Turbo in my HHR. Great engine but I would think 300 HP would make a better statment from Cadillac from 2.0 liters. GM can do it very easy as they have already proven it before. My HHR is almost to the 300 number now only limited with the 4 speed transaxle.

[smk4565]

The reviews are very positive, I agree with the ones that said the 2.5 liter doesn't belong The 2.0T should be the base engine, it has the same fuel economy as the 2.5, so it isn't about CAFE. Seems that back seat space and trunk space are small for the segment, but that probably won't hurt sales.

I think this car needs to be faster though, and I put some blame on the transmission. Motor Trend had the V6 at 5.7 seconds 0-60, a 328i can do that. Even Cadillac's estimate of 5.4 seconds for the V6 puts them a bit behind the 335i which can do it in 4.7 seconds. An 8-speed transmission would be nice.

The interior looks pretty good in real world production car photos. I think it turned out well, not a fan of the snoozeville wheels on the 3.6 model.

[hyperv6]

The reviews have all been good and they all have a few nit picks.

What I find funny is how Autoweek complained about the A pillar but I think it was Car and driver praised them for being so thin? There were other subjective things they all did not agree on. But in the end they all agree it is a car to consider vs the BMW and that has never been said before. We have to remember these reviews were not easy for these BMW lovers to do.

This is only the jump off point and it will only get better, faster and refined. At least Cadillac is in the circle of choice and not just outside. I expect with the added price the CTS will only build on the ATS as it will have more room to do more things with the cost involved.

Now with Cadillac coming out and finally stating the LTS is approved and now expected in 2015 we should have a good car line up.

The only thing I worry about is the unrealistic expectations of some I have seen on the web for the LTS. Some seem to think they will be getting one of the two show cars as the production model. Then when it appears as a real production car they will piss and moan that they should have had the V16 or wood carved dash,

Cadillac has a 10 year plan and I would expect that would get us to the next gen of each of these cars in 10 years and it will be interesting to see where they take this then. In the mean time I hope they evolve the engines into their own while they refine the cars.

The Turbo V6 ATSV may be intersting with the base car being this good. Even the F2 suspension got praise.

[regfootball]

http://www.autoblog....e-review-video/

Autoblog was jerks.....

"The naturally aspirated four-cylinder idles smoothly enough, though that's thanks largely to some cleverness in the engine mounts."

no... it totally has nothing to do the fact that it is a brand new engine that was designed with NHV control in mind...

"We fully expected the turbo four-cylinder to be the sweet spot in the ATS line, and while it feels properly quick, the engine still lacks the buttery refinement of offerings from Audi"

... uh... has the dude actually driven a 2.0T Audi? Fun engines, sure, but I don't dare call them "buttery"

"On the street, Sport Mode simply devolves into a button to make the transmission worse. The overly sensitive programming will kick down a gear and hold it on mild freeway onramps, sticking the transmission in third or fourth gear and keeping it there long enough for us to wonder if we've broken something. In the end, it does exactly what shift logic shouldn't do: make the driver aware of the transmission."

.... you mean that when you drive normally in sport mode, you don't like the way the car is performing? My CTS had this sport mode... it was meant solely for hard driving situations. Put it in sport mode and drive it like you stole it, otherwise, let the transmission stay in normal mode.

you can tell that Autoblog, Edmunds, and sometimes Automobile are trying so hard to be critical, they just go way so far with it. Shock journalism. Really it's just to stoke the fanboi's who spend all day commenting on their sites....tools and douchebags who portend to say things like 'i was gonna buy this or the A4 2.0 and the stitching on the ATS dash sucks so much I am going to buy the Audi'....

chances are that half the douchebags there don't have a driver's license, or a job, or both, and may have never purchased a car in their lives.

I am one who really doesn't mind the 2.5 base engine. First off, the power output is pretty close to what used to be the base in the 3 series. Second, for 3300-3400 pounds, it's adequate. 0-60 in 7.5 is as fast as a 3800 powered car, maybe quicker. Was that ever slow? Third, saving the turbo hardware and the leather means being able to have the low price leader which lets face it is important for GM. Cheap lease bait, then switch. Rental cars....Hertz don't want turbos. Neither do old people, some folks are anti turbo. The 4 is light and keeps the car 50/50. I think leaving out the folding seat is a problem. I honestly would be fine with a 2.5 for daily transport but would be most interested in the turbo for the sportiness.

Putting the 2.5 in a more expensive car like the ATS helps them write off the cost of it more, which keeps the cost of it down on cars like the Malibu.

I've subscribed to car magazines since like 88....been reading C/D, R/T, pop sci/mech and MT for well over 30 years. I have found Road and Track to be the most neutral and consistent over that time. Car and Driver is pretty good for the most part but has had fits of self indulgence and hyperbole. Motor Trend kind of morphs every few years from daily driver to performance to luxury or consumer emphasis. Road and Track's reviews are the ones that I tend to think show the best record over time.

Edited July 24, 2012 by regfootball

[smk4565]

7.5 seconds 0-60 is slow for this segment. Infiniti bagged the wimpy G25, and just because Lexus has a wimpy IS250, doesn't mean Cadillac needs one also. A 328i does 0-60 in 5.6 seconds. That is nearly as quick as the V6 ATS. Cadillac doesn't need a value leader, they are Cadillac, not Chevy. I think they should drop the 2.5 and really go at this with bigger guns.

The good news is, this appears to be Cadillac's best effort in years. If they can follow it up with the CTS, and eventually get the wear front drivers out of the line up and bring out a real flagship, then they are on to something. I am glad they are on the right track, but I hope they stay committed to it.

[balthazar]

ATS 2.5 is closer to the 320i in market demographics, and from what I could find online, just a few years ago that was doing 0-60 in 9.8 secs.

[regfootball]

http://autos.aol.com/cars-Mercedes_Benz-C_Class-2013-Sport__C250_4dr_Sedan/overview/

Mercedes C250 does 0-60 in 8.3 even with it's 7 speed auto.

[hyperv6]

The review from any mag is only as good as the writer. Then it is only as good as the editor. I have been getting these magzines since the 70's and I find that often many of the reviews flawed in some way. Yes there are good reviews but they also show where the writer did not do his homework or showed his like for one brand over another that is not always subjective.

Of all the magazines i have found Autoweek to be the mosty consistant. It may be the fact that they do not live only on the automakers advertising only. They are not perfect but tend to be the most fair.

After seeing how things work first hand between advertisers and magazines I know the truth that there is a lot of influance there that many never consider. . Things often are far from impartial than they appear. Also magazines today are only a shadow of what they once were. Staffs are small and many of them are very very underpaid.

I also wonder how much goodwill GM bringing in the few writers from the media to advise on product development has helped them in reviews. No only are they paid but they also had imput into these cars. Would you bad mouth somthing you recomended or advised?.

[G. David Felt]

The reviews have all been good and they all have a few nit picks.

What I find funny is how Autoweek complained about the A pillar but I think it was Car and driver praised them for being so thin? There were other subjective things they all did not agree on. But in the end they all agree it is a car to consider vs the BMW and that has never been said before. We have to remember these reviews were not easy for these BMW lovers to do.

This is only the jump off point and it will only get better, faster and refined. At least Cadillac is in the circle of choice and not just outside. I expect with the added price the CTS will only build on the ATS as it will have more room to do more things with the cost involved.

Now with Cadillac coming out and finally stating the LTS is approved and now expected in 2015 we should have a good car line up.

The only thing I worry about is the unrealistic expectations of some I have seen on the web for the LTS. Some seem to think they will be getting one of the two show cars as the production model. Then when it appears as a real production car they will piss and moan that they should have had the V16 or wood carved dash,

Cadillac has a 10 year plan and I would expect that would get us to the next gen of each of these cars in 10 years and it will be interesting to see where they take this then. In the mean time I hope they evolve the engines into their own while they refine the cars.

The Turbo V6 ATSV may be intersting with the base car being this good. Even the F2 suspension got praise.

I agree that for the most part the reviews have been great when you consider these writers love affair with the German and Asian auto builders. To have them list this as a consideration is Great and a start of better things to come.

The CORE piece for GM is to stay focused and continue to improve rather than sit on their butts and just take in instant gratification. I think with a Global Economy, more companies are realizing the need to be quality all the time.

In regards to the LTS, if they have a twin turbo V6 with Electric motor assist so that it gets out standing gas mileage along with performance, it will make many people happy.

GM needs to do the following:

1) Keep ALL V cars supercharged or turbo charged engines for their class of car. Could be 4, 6, or 8 bangers, but should be best in class.

2) Use smaller turbo engines along with electric motor assist to be best in class in performance along with Fit and Finish of the car and quality materials.

3) Stay the course with long term building and we will have Cadillac back as the standard of the world.

[Drew Dowdell]

Consider this... when you have to start picking on stuff like the thickness of the steering wheel rim is "not as good as BMW", when you have one reporter amazed at how thin the A-pillar is and another complaining about how thick it is, when you have to start complaining that it is priced too close to BMW, when you have to start making up reasons why the base engine is so smooth but then complain that the engine isn't smooth enough, when you call one of the least smooth competitor's engines "buttery", when you start complaining that a loaded model can price over the base version of the next car up while forgetting that the EXACT same thing happens at BMW, Audi, and Benz....

well... maybe Cadillac is just hitting too close to home for the BMW humping journalists.....

[G. David Felt]

Consider this... when you have to start picking on stuff like the thickness of the steering wheel rim is "not as good as BMW", when you have one reporter amazed at how thin the A-pillar is and another complaining about how thick it is, when you have to start complaining that it is priced too close to BMW, when you have to start making up reasons why the base engine is so smooth but then complain that the engine isn't smooth enough, when you call one of the least smooth competitor's engines "buttery", when you start complaining that a loaded model can price over the base version of the next car up while forgetting that the EXACT same thing happens at BMW, Audi, and Benz....

well... maybe Cadillac is just hitting too close to home for the BMW humping journalists.....

You crack me up with hitting the nail on the head! Nice statement!

[frogger]

Make mine an AWD ATS 2.0 Avant

[A Horse With No Name]

The automotive press is really starting to stand up and take notice of the fact that American car makers ARE doing so much better.

I also think Olds also really hit the nail on the head regarding the remaining bias against American car makers....

The new caddy can only help us, guys!

[Z-06]

The only glaring omission, if you are trying to topple the top competitor, is the lack of manual transmission on all the models as BMW has it. Given it is a SPORTS sedan.

Otherwise the car has hit its mark much to the chargin of the BMW devotees. Denial and resistance is first phase of acceptance.

I personally would have preferred a turbocharged lineup. But once GM's new small engine family comes in we may see a 1.6T/1.8T replacing the 2.5. But then again old GM reared its ugly head in engine choices. If Regal can get two variants of the 2.0T why did not the ATS.

[G. David Felt]

The only glaring omission, if you are trying to topple the top competitor, is the lack of manual transmission on all the models as BMW has it. Given it is a SPORTS sedan.

Otherwise the car has hit its mark much to the chargin of the BMW devotees. Denial and resistance is first phase of acceptance.

I personally would have preferred a turbocharged lineup. But once GM's new small engine family comes in we may see a 1.6T/1.8T replacing the 2.5. But then again old GM reared its ugly head in engine choices. If Regal can get two variants of the 2.0T why did not the ATS.

In taking a look at BMW sales for 2012, while across the board with all divisions sales are up 15.2%, Manual tranny makes up only 1.5%. I wonder if the lack of manual is due to upper mgmt looking at it and asking does it make sense to offer it at the cost to build and test it? MB has about the same percentage and Audi is just under 1%. Now this was just looking at the US market. Compare to world sales and of course manual tranny jumps up big time.

This then begs the question, if Cadillac is wanting to get back into Europe / Global sales, then why would they not realize the large percentage of Manual drivers and build the Tranny to support these engines as a Global Tranny.

[Drew Dowdell]

I wouldn't bother offering the manual on the 2.5, the people who buy the car with that engine won't care.

The 2.0T is the "sporty" car of the bunch having performance rivaling the 3.6, so it get's the manual.

The 3.6 V6 is for driving the AWD system and will mostly be purchased by upper middle class housewives (Your wife excluded Z) but most are not going to care if it doesn't have a manual.

The 3.0TT V6 or the LSV8 is the ATS-V and will certainly come with a manual.

Seems like a fare distribution to me.

[Drew Dowdell]

This then begs the question, if Cadillac is wanting to get back into Europe / Global sales, then why would they not realize the large percentage of Manual drivers and build the Tranny to support these engines as a Global Tranny.

Just because they aren't offering it here doesn't mean they aren't offering it in Europe. Engine/Transmission combinations need to be certified for sale in the US in each car. That takes money to do. They could very well have an all manual lineup available in the ATS for the EU because that's where it would sell.

The bigger omission is the lack of a diesel at the moment, but I suspect that will come for Europe at least.

[Z-06]

Disagree with both of you on that count. Bigger engine and manual transmission are not and should not be mutually exclusive. In fact the take rate of manual transmissions in a 335i is more than its take rate in 328i. It is the 328i that is the poseur machine. Manual take rate in 3er is more like 12% which is more than industry average take rate of 6.5%. G37 is another car that offers manual transmission with the bigger engine. Cadillac touted at the release of the car on the 20th floor that all trims will have manual transmission (Reuss said it and you and I were present there) till it backtracked in the actual autoshow.

Remember the AWD is also available on the 2.0T so the premise of 3.6 geared for AWD and hence no manual transmission for the engine is not bulletproof.

[hyperv6]

Disagree with both of you on that count. Bigger engine and manual transmission are not and should not be mutually exclusive. In fact the take rate of manual transmissions in a 335i is more than its take rate in 328i. It is the 328i that is the poseur machine. Manual take rate in 3er is more like 12% which is more than industry average take rate of 6.5%. G37 is another car that offers manual transmission with the bigger engine. Cadillac touted at the release of the car on the 20th floor that all trims will have manual transmission (Reuss said it and you and I were present there) till it backtracked in the actual autoshow.

Remember the AWD is also available on the 2.0T so the premise of 3.6 geared for AWD and hence no manual transmission for the engine is not bulletproof.

I agree that the lack of a manual is more an issue for reviews and less an issue for real sales. When the average take rate on manual is 7% for the market and while a little higher as you stated in the sport sedans it is still low.

The V series will get it with the TT turbo and it should. We have to keep in mind GM has not shown all the cards here and we have only seen the intro versions of these cars. More good things are to come for the ATS. I would though forget the V8 as it is going to the CTS not the ATS. A 400 plus HP TT V6 will be enough for the light ATS and the CTS will take a the new V8 for the V.

[smk4565]

Automotive journalists may have bias, but the public is even more so biased toward the Germans. You have to give a pretty strong reason not to just by default drive to the BMW or Mercedes dealership in this class. Infiniti came up with a good alternative with the G37, but they are appealing to the people that have gotten too mature for a Civic Si or Mitsubishi Evo or other Japanese rice racer type car. That Japanese loyalist crowd is hard to steal away also.

This is why I wouldn't have the Malibu engine or versions without CUE, because Cadillac needs every trim level to be amazing, not just the upper level ones. If there is to be a 3rd engine choice on this car, it should be a diesel. BMW has an M-diesel in Europe, and AMG is working on a diesel (reportedly over 500 hp and 730 lb-ft), I think Cadillac should look into that so they aren't late to the party.

Edited July 24, 2012 by smk4565

[Z-06]

Hyper you are missing the point. Cadillac made it as a no excuse car. Reviews are the ones they should be worried about. Forget the fact that BMW does not have any manual transmission cars on the dealer lots, it is the publicity which BMW puts on its cars. Tense now relax later approach is better for a newcomer when topping an incumbent.

Sales wise it will not make sense, but publicity wise GM has lost the battle as people are already crowing about 3.6. Another example of how media is taken seriously. MT reports 4.7 sec time for the 335i and 5.7 sec fo the ATS 3.6. What it fails to tell is the conditions under which ATS was tested were not controlled. Poseurs are proclaiming how the 3.6 should be compared to the A4 and the 328i.

Like Olds mentioned thin/thick pillars, steering wheels are holding by thread excuses, omission of manual transmission is not.

[A Horse With No Name]

Hyper you are missing the point. Cadillac made it as a no excuse car. Reviews are the ones they should be worried about. Forget the fact that BMW does not have any manual transmission cars on the dealer lots, it is the publicity which BMW puts on its cars. Tense now relax later approach is better for a newcomer when topping an incumbent.

Sales wise it will not make sense, but publicity wise GM has lost the battle as people are already crowing about 3.6. Another example of how media is taken seriously. MT reports 4.7 sec time for the 335i and 5.7 sec fo the ATS 3.6. What it fails to tell is the conditions under which ATS was tested were not controlled. Poseurs are proclaiming how the 3.6 should be compared to the A4 and the 328i.

Like Olds mentioned thin/thick pillars, steering wheels are holding by thread excuses, omission of manual transmission is not.

It will be interesting to see what people actually think about these cars after they own them for a couple of years.

I think word on the street (I.e. knowing someone who owns a Cadillac and likes it) will ultimately win Cadillac a lot of sales.

[Z-06]

Hyper you are missing the point. Cadillac made it as a no excuse car. Reviews are the ones they should be worried about. Forget the fact that BMW does not have any manual transmission cars on the dealer lots, it is the publicity which BMW puts on its cars. Tense now relax later approach is better for a newcomer when topping an incumbent.

Sales wise it will not make sense, but publicity wise GM has lost the battle as people are already crowing about 3.6. Another example of how media is taken seriously. MT reports 4.7 sec time for the 335i and 5.7 sec fo the ATS 3.6. What it fails to tell is the conditions under which ATS was tested were not controlled. Poseurs are proclaiming how the 3.6 should be compared to the A4 and the 328i.

Like Olds mentioned thin/thick pillars, steering wheels are holding by thread excuses, omission of manual transmission is not.

It will be interesting to see what people actually think about these cars after they own them for a couple of years.

I think word on the street (I.e. knowing someone who owns a Cadillac and likes it) will ultimately win Cadillac a lot of sales.

You are correct about people owning the GMs will be ultimately won by the car.

It is people like smk who don't want GM and who GM is concentrating on as customers for this car should not have problems with the car. For them, they will sit with spec sheets, put information on Excel and compare every nano second, seat position, speakers, leather softness to the incumbent's. GM wants to cater to these customers then it should know what those customers like to do.

[A Horse With No Name]

But in a real world sense I think GM is really building better cars now, and I think the cadillac really shows it.

Look at how cheap Subaru paint is....the FRS I test drove was built in a Subaru factory. Awful paint quality...just awful.

You and I (Z06 and me) both have owned BMW products, so I am not picking on BMW when I say this....but I was next to a 6 series convertible (Nearly new) at the gas station. Lots of orange peel in the paint, mismatched gaps in panels, etc. Build quality approached what my 66 Mustang left the factory with maybe....not quite. But you get the point. for a car in its price range...not good.

One of the guys I race with is big into BMW's and runs a body shop, HE will tell you how much better GM's paint quality is than BMW's

Or look at how much nicer the Cadillac interior is than the 300 interior. The 300 interior is really nice, the Cadillac interior is just better.

Again, guys I race with, son owns a late model GTO, father owns an SRT-8 300 Chrysler, the GTO has much nicer interior quality, and it's held up better over the years also. And that isn't even one of the newer, even better GM interiors.

I really think the best thing GM can do right now is get these cars in circulation. The real people paying for them on sixty month notes will be won over. Guys like SMK will drive their 97 Aurora's and bitch that the Caddy can't self levitate....

Edited July 24, 2012 by A Horse With No Name

[Z-06]

Again no disagreement there. GM is building much better cars, but it is the failure to convey that perception is missing from GM. And when GM misses that opportunity it just sickens me that all those executives have not learned their lessons.

After E46 and may be just may be E92, the BMW group has lost it. Quality sucks, driveability sucks, design is same, the entire store looks staid, boring and vanilla cars filled for higher herds. My E46 seems much better built than the F10, I noticed when I was at the service bay the other day.

[A Horse With No Name]

I would agree completely! I am so sad BMW has lot it to the extent they have...but yeah...your E46 is a much better car than the current stuff.

Let's hope Cadillac can market what its got...

[smk4565]

I have an 01 Aurora, and next year it will probably be time to replace it. I've had it 9 years now, and there is a laundry list of things that have gone wrong, and I have spent thousands to fix them. The build quality and reliability has just been too poor, it makes me reluctant to give GM another chance. This is common, it is why GM once had 40% market share and now has 18%.

The ATS on mechanics and specs has a lot I like (aside from the 2.5), but I prefer the C-class in styling in this segment. I think BMWs drive great and are built very well, but I don't care for BMW styling. My question on the ATS is when that car is 10-15 years old will it look and drive similar to when it was new, or will it be falling apart and ready for the scrap yard. GM doesn't have me convinced that their cars are really built to last yet.

Interestingly enough, at this price point, I'd probably take a Genesis 5.0 over the ATS or any of the German compacts, because of the 429 hp DOHC V8. That engine with an 8-speed transmission produces more fun factor to me than these V6 cars do, and it is a much roomier car.

[smk4565]

Again no disagreement there. GM is building much better cars, but it is the failure to convey that perception is missing from GM. And when GM misses that opportunity it just sickens me that all those executives have not learned their lessons.

Agreed. GM is building better, but everyone in the market is building better. GM convincing the naysayers will be their biggest challenge. And on luxury cars the badge matters, sometimes more than the car behind it.

[hyperv6]

Hyper you are missing the point. Cadillac made it as a no excuse car. Reviews are the ones they should be worried about. Forget the fact that BMW does not have any manual transmission cars on the dealer lots, it is the publicity which BMW puts on its cars. Tense now relax later approach is better for a newcomer when topping an incumbent.

Sales wise it will not make sense, but publicity wise GM has lost the battle as people are already crowing about 3.6. Another example of how media is taken seriously. MT reports 4.7 sec time for the 335i and 5.7 sec fo the ATS 3.6. What it fails to tell is the conditions under which ATS was tested were not controlled. Poseurs are proclaiming how the 3.6 should be compared to the A4 and the 328i.

Like Olds mentioned thin/thick pillars, steering wheels are holding by thread excuses, omission of manual transmission is not.

20 years ago I would have agreed that making 7% of production Manual in a non V would have been a good Idea. But in this day and age where a Ferrari is rare with a gated shifter and Porsche has forgone the Air Cooled Boxer to make SUV's and become more profitable than ever I can not so easily agree. The few Air Cooled purist have adapted to the water cooled car and only a very few cling to the past.

Porsche and most others have learned that catering to the low volume purist is nice but in this say and age profits are what keep the company open and new product coming vs the 7%.

Now on a V series where the voulme may be closer to 15%-20% by all means have at the Manual. But for the 2.5 and non turbo V6 the volume is much too low. Anyone wanting performance would buy the Turbo 4 or coming 6 anyways and they both will have it.

The bottom line this car will do just as well with no manual 2.5 or non turbo V6 in the big picture. Save the money to certify the 2.5 to add more goods to the TT V series where the manual will matter.

I reread the January review of the M3 and AMG. The ATS V should have a good shot as they liked a lot on both cars and hated a lot on both. One had power the other had handlng. If GM can give both they should had a trump card. The only thing I hope is that the new CTS gets a boost with the new V as the ATS should prove to be a very good car in V trim and I hope they don't steal sales from the CTSV.

Todays MFG's can no longer just cater to the fringe as there is little profit. They all are doing it and it just evens the game up for all. The fringe may lose out on some fun combo's but that is life.

Too often the performance fans micro manage things at times that is good but when you split hairs on a non performance sedan for less than 10% of sales that is a little too focused. Save it for the V.

Edited July 25, 2012 by hyperv6

[Z-06]

Then get it, be happy with it and drive it and stop micro-whining about GM products since regardless of what GM does it is not going to give you an orgasm.

I have an 01 Aurora, and next year it will probably be time to replace it. I've had it 9 years now, and there is a laundry list of things that have gone wrong, and I have spent thousands to fix them. The build quality and reliability has just been too poor, it makes me reluctant to give GM another chance. This is common, it is why GM once had 40% market share and now has 18%.

The ATS on mechanics and specs has a lot I like (aside from the 2.5), but I prefer the C-class in styling in this segment. I think BMWs drive great and are built very well, but I don't care for BMW styling. My question on the ATS is when that car is 10-15 years old will it look and drive similar to when it was new, or will it be falling apart and ready for the scrap yard. GM doesn't have me convinced that their cars are really built to last yet.

Interestingly enough, at this price point, I'd probably take a Genesis 5.0 over the ATS or any of the German compacts, because of the 429 hp DOHC V8. That engine with an 8-speed transmission produces more fun factor to me than these V6 cars do, and it is a much roomier car.

[A Horse With No Name]

I have an 01 Aurora, and next year it will probably be time to replace it. I've had it 9 years now, and there is a laundry list of things that have gone wrong, and I have spent thousands to fix them. The build quality and reliability has just been too poor, it makes me reluctant to give GM another chance. This is common, it is why GM once had 40% market share and now has 18%.

The ATS on mechanics and specs has a lot I like (aside from the 2.5), but I prefer the C-class in styling in this segment. I think BMWs drive great and are built very well, but I don't care for BMW styling. My question on the ATS is when that car is 10-15 years old will it look and drive similar to when it was new, or will it be falling apart and ready for the scrap yard. GM doesn't have me convinced that their cars are really built to last yet.

Interestingly enough, at this price point, I'd probably take a Genesis 5.0 over the ATS or any of the German compacts, because of the 429 hp DOHC V8. That engine with an 8-speed transmission produces more fun factor to me than these V6 cars do, and it is a much roomier car.

Okay, sometimes you drive me nuts here, and I just made a sarcastic comment about you in another thread but...

I am also a fellow traveler with you. I feel your pain...I really do. I've owned more GM cars than non GM cars. right now I own two GM trucks, a Mazda (Miata) a BMW (MINI Cooper S) a Toyota (Orign gen Scion xB). Need to buy another car next year, maybe two. son is out of school and drives the XB, and the Miata is possibly going to undergo modification to be more of a track car...and is also showing its age. It is an 02, so I can relate to replacing an 01 Aurora.

I too am looking at the Genesis, but alas the 2.0T Coupe. I do like the 4 door Genesis, and think you will be well served by it.

And yes, I do know GM also has a long history of building crappy cars as well as good ones.

One of the hardest things to me is keeping an open mind both for and against GM when looking at a car. We thought long and hard about a Camaro when we bought the MINI Cooper S, but ultimately (obviously) rejected the idea.

Good luck to you, smk as you look for your next car... and may the best car win.

At least your not in my boat....I'm thinking BRZ/FRS which has its own issues...

[hyperv6]

We have just seen the start of the real improved GM cars with the ATS. This is the first complete new car post Chapter 11. The rest of the better cars were just improved old cars or platforms. I was encouraged by what they did with the old stuff and have held great expectations for all the new stuff.

On paper the new Camaro should be stunning. The only question I hold on it is how much power will the new V8 will have and what will it look like.

[A Horse With No Name]

We have just seen the start of the real improved GM cars with the ATS. This is the first complete new car post Chapter 11. The rest of the better cars were just improved old cars or platforms. I was encouraged by what they did with the old stuff and have held great expectations for all the new stuff.

On paper the new Camaro should be stunning. The only question I hold on it is how much power will the new V8 will have and what will it look like.

Which is why I am going to probably wait for it to come out before I ink a deal...I think stunning is a damned fine word for what it will be.

[A Horse With No Name]

Then get it, be happy with it and drive it and stop micro-whining about GM products since regardless of what GM does it is not going to give you an orgasm.

AS frustrated as I get...I can as I said relate a little bit.

Best advice I can give is give everything a good solid test drive when the time comes, and let your gut be your guide...you will know which way to go.

[hyperv6]

We have just seen the start of the real improved GM cars with the ATS. This is the first complete new car post Chapter 11. The rest of the better cars were just improved old cars or platforms. I was encouraged by what they did with the old stuff and have held great expectations for all the new stuff.

On paper the new Camaro should be stunning. The only question I hold on it is how much power will the new V8 will have and what will it look like.

Which is why I am going to probably wait for it to come out before I ink a deal...I think stunning is a damned fine word for what it will be.

As long as the styling is a winner the car will come in at a weight that will let it do things that more power would never fix. It should turn and stop on a scale few have seen in a car it's price.

I just hope the styling is killer. So far I have yet been able to get anyone to even hint. I think the styling is more closely guarded than the Vette.

[Z-06]

Hyper you are missing the point. Cadillac made it as a no excuse car. Reviews are the ones they should be worried about. Forget the fact that BMW does not have any manual transmission cars on the dealer lots, it is the publicity which BMW puts on its cars. Tense now relax later approach is better for a newcomer when topping an incumbent.

Sales wise it will not make sense, but publicity wise GM has lost the battle as people are already crowing about 3.6. Another example of how media is taken seriously. MT reports 4.7 sec time for the 335i and 5.7 sec fo the ATS 3.6. What it fails to tell is the conditions under which ATS was tested were not controlled. Poseurs are proclaiming how the 3.6 should be compared to the A4 and the 328i.

Like Olds mentioned thin/thick pillars, steering wheels are holding by thread excuses, omission of manual transmission is not.

20 years ago I would have agreed that making 7% of production Manual in a non V would have been a good Idea. But in this day and age where a Ferrari is rare with a gated shifter and Porsche has forgone the Air Cooled Boxer to make SUV's and become more profitable than ever I can not so easily agree. The few Air Cooled purist have adapted to the water cooled car and only a very few cling to the past.

Porsche and most others have learned that catering to the low volume purist is nice but in this say and age profits are what keep the company open and new product coming vs the 7%.

Now on a V series where the voulme may be closer to 15%-20% by all means have at the Manual. But for the 2.5 and non turbo V6 the volume is much too low. Anyone wanting performance would buy the Turbo 4 or coming 6 anyways and they both will have it.

The bottom line this car will do just as well with no manual 2.5 or non turbo V6 in the big picture. Save the money to certify the 2.5 to add more goods to the TT V series where the manual will matter.

I reread the January review of the M3 and AMG. The ATS V should have a good shot as they liked a lot on both cars and hated a lot on both. One had power the other had handlng. If GM can give both they should had a trump card. The only thing I hope is that the new CTS gets a boost with the new V as the ATS should prove to be a very good car in V trim and I hope they don't steal sales from the CTSV.

Todays MFG's can no longer just cater to the fringe as there is little profit. They all are doing it and it just evens the game up for all. The fringe may lose out on some fun combo's but that is life.

Too often the performance fans micro manage things at times that is good but when you split hairs on a non performance sedan for less than 10% of sales that is a little too focused. Save it for the V.

It is about perceptions not sales. GM needs to change perceptions. It should strive in perceiving people that it is indeed making cars that people want. Germans apply the Rommel strategy. In Egypt Rommel used to take his few tanks and run circles around the streets in the city he was occupying. Allied forces thought his strength was much more than his piddly tank numbers, which made them scared from attacking him.

BMW, Mercedes, Audi bring best in US when they are fleet whores in Europe and have lowly and anemic engines. Magazines rave about their products as second coming of Christ, talk about how some glorified greener grass products on the Continent don't make to States and just as snake charmers charm the herd to sing their same tune.

[Z-06]

Again no disagreement there. GM is building much better cars, but it is the failure to convey that perception is missing from GM. And when GM misses that opportunity it just sickens me that all those executives have not learned their lessons.

Agreed. GM is building better, but everyone in the market is building better. GM convincing the naysayers will be their biggest challenge. And on luxury cars the badge matters, sometimes more than the car behind it.

Nope, if that was the case Lexus would not have had foothold and now stronghold in USA. Perceptions, Perceptions, Perceptions.

[smk4565]

On paper the new Camaro should be stunning. The only question I hold on it is how much power will the new V8 will have and what will it look like.

What if it doesn't have a V8? (aside from ZL1 trim) Hard to justify the CTS-V being the only Cadillac with a V8, then putting one in the Camaro and Chevy SS which cost much less. CAFE makes GM do weird things. I hope V8s survive, especially on cars regular people can afford. I'd like to see the CTS in non-V form get a V8.