Ferrari Challenger from Cadillac

[dwightlooi]

Should Cadillac do a carbon fiber monocoque supercar with an American twist to rival the Ferrari 458? Such a vehicle will also put Caddy in the same field as the McLaren MP4-12C, Lamborghini Gallardo, Lexus LFA, Porsche 912, you name it). This will be a small volume vehicle probably around 2000 units a year and the carbon fiber chassis will probably be outsourced. It'll sell for around $150K.

What GM has that the world doesn't is the light, compact, powerful and efficient small block V8. Unlike all the aforementioned cars, the Caddy will save a lot of money on powertrain development allowing it to spend more on the chassis and other finishings while selling the car for roughly 50% more than the ZR1 and about half what the competition is asking.

The target parameters are very achievable at 3 times the Corvette's budget.

• 2-seat, Mid-Engine, Rear Drive
  
• 2800 lbs Dry Weight (est 200 lbs less than the Corvette C7)
  
• Carbon Fiber Monocoque Central Tub (Outsourced; possibly to McLaren)
  
• 7.0 liter Gen V Pushrod 16-valve V8 w/ DI & VVT (Est. 550hp @ 6800 rpm, 500 lb-ft @ 4800 rpm, 7000 rpm max)
  
• 7-speed Dual Clutch Gearbox (Getrag -- 7DCL750 w/ 553 lb-ft max input torque)
  
• Coil Springs, Double Wishbones, Magnetorologic shocks
  
• Goodyear Eagle F1 Supercar G2 Run-on-Flat tires (Front: 265/40 ZR19 / Rear: 325/35ZR20)
  
• 0-60 mph 3.0 secs; 1/4 mile 10.9 secs; road holding 1.10 G; 15 (City) / 25 (Hwy) mpg
  

Street creds for Caddy, plus homoglation for GM racing.

[A Horse With No Name]

I think it would be a great idea in about a year or two, when GM has some continued profitability and they are in a bettter position for financial risk.

But you guys all know how much I love racing and performance cars.

[hyperv6]

Until they can figure out how to sell a sedan in Europe Cadillac needs a high end sports car like any of us need a STD.

If breaking into the flagship segment is difficult the sports car segment is even toughter. People buy this kind of car often just on image along. Honda had a hard time understanding how the NSX was praised for being a better car than some of the older Ferraris of the time but in the end they never could crack into the same class as Ferrari. If anything they woke Ferrari up and made them even better and harder to beat. Same goes for Honda's many attempts to beat Harley Davidson. They may make a better model but it is still not a Harley.

Cadillac was really never know for their sports cars and the ones they are known for are not worth remembering. There is little image there or need for this kind of car at this time. Once they solve their core market issues then they can look to expeand.

If you want a high end sports car you need to break out Corvette as a brand and sell it as a seperate model through approved Chevy dealers that could handle such a car. Not all Chevy Dealers should have a higher end Corvette unless they have enough volume on the lower models.

Better yet if you have to do mid engine just make the high end sports car its own brand. This would let Chevy keep the Vette and give Cadillac a sports car to sell that could create their own image for. This way too only the approved dealers would offer it and not let customers stuck as small Cadillac dealers ill prepared to deal with it. It would give you an advantage of selling the car as a brand but not the burden of building a new dealer network.

But on the other hand the money and time on a car like this would go a long way to making a LTS a better car that Cadillas really needs first.

Edited June 20, 2012 by hyperv6

[Drew Dowdell]

GM hasn't gotten the Malibu right. Concentrate on the money makers first.

[balthazar]

I like the concept and believe it could be done & would improve image.

However, 2000 units is about 10 times what the actual volume would be.

[dado]

Let's see what those other European supercars have

Low weight..check

Excellent handling ...check

they all participate in some sort or racing (GT, lemans, etc),,,well.. most of them do...

Big price..check

Image....check

High revving engine with ridiculous high HP/l rating made just for that model or some other overpriced type of vehicle..check..

Now propouse Cadillac's competitor

Low weight ..check

Excellent handling..check

Participation in some sort of racing..well i assume it would compete in racing

Big price...check (not as big as competition but in this league i don't think price is priority)

High revving engine with high HP/l rating etc.etc...no..

Now this is the car that will cost about what...150 000$ and will offer same engine as the one in corvette. Yes we all know small block is small in size, it is light...but.. engine from Mclaren is also small and light. New engine from lamborghini weight about 230 kg. Heavier than LS based engine but it is a v12 engine. Engines from 458 italia and LFA 1LR-GUE V10 are probably very light . And i don't think that engine for Cadillac's top model (supersedan or sports car) should be engine which is found in much lower priced cars (chevrolet) or maybe even in a truck (or some version of that engine).

[G. David Felt]

I agree with Balthazar that the number would be closer to around 500 - 1000 a year at most. This would be an excellent Halo car for Cadillac.

I see the point that DADO is making but I think the real Question is would this car compete with the Farrari, Lambo and Bugatti of the world or more a AMG / M6 competition or maybe in between both.

I think this would allow GM to build an amazing mid engine sports car that would truly rival the world and help them move technology forward.

BMW M series and AMG both are using engines that are high reving but still have big Torque numbers just like the V engine. I personally am not thrilled by the way Farrari and Lambo have these 600HP motors with 400 Ft Lbs of torque. I would take a AMG or M and best yet V engine over what they build.

Yes GM needs to focus the money on building quality mass produced cars that sell and bring in money, but they also could start on a Halo Car. I think GM should Partner with BMW since they have their Carbon Fiber plant here in Mosses Lake Washington where they have poached Carbon Fiber enginers from Boeing to build parts for their cars. They have a Carbon Fiber Bucket for their performance Auto's. Do not see why they would not want to recover their R&D costs by building a bucket as a core for a GM Auto.

[balthazar]

It would not be a huge deal to machine a unique displacement on the LS architecture for a Cadillac-only application.

Question is, what would the development cost??

I still maintain actual sales would average out much closer to 200 than 1000.

[Robert Hall]

I like the specs, but think Corvette would be the appropriate place for a supercar. A limited edition high end Corvette model above the ZR-1. Corvette has the international racing heritage and brand recognition.

I'd love to see a street version of this mid-engined Corvette built as a Ferrari/Lambo competitor...

If Cadillac were going to build a high end sports car or sporty model, the target should be something like the Merc SL or SLS...front engine, RWD coupe/convertible...like the XLR but better executed.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[smk4565]

It wouldn't sell. I agree with Hyper on this, they can't even break into the big sedan segment, going into a Ferrari/Lamborghini segment is not going to work. And I agree with Drew also, they can't get the Malibu right, they need to focus on the volume cars and if GM can't compete with a Fusion or Sonata, how are they going to compete with Ferrari?

A Cadillac supercar would be cool, but it won't work right now. I do think they need a big sedan though, start there and with getting the ATS and CTS up to world class and then maybe in 5-10 years time evaluate a Cadillac sports car.

[A Horse With No Name]

GM hasn't gotten the Malibu right. Concentrate on the money makers first.

i AGREE WITH THIS, WHICH IS WHY i SAID A FUTURE PROPOSITION...

It would not be a huge deal to machine a unique displacement on the LS architecture for a Cadillac-only application.

Question is, what would the development cost??

I still maintain actual sales would average out much closer to 200 than 1000.

And your probably right also...and sorry for the caps lock.

Development could be shared with an out of house company....also

Cadillac could team up with someone like riley to build a race only version of said halo car, thus having an image car that didn't have to meet eleven billion gov't standards.

I like the idea of GM strutting its stuff...but don't know how practical that would be....

[ZL-1]

I'd rather see Cadillac tackle the Mercedes SL than do this. Problem is the Corvette performance can't (apparently) be touched y anything inside the GM stable even if it costs 50% more than said Corvette...

[balthazar]

How is it again that the Malibu "doesn't compete" with the Fusion & sonata??

[hyperv6]

I would rather see Cadillac attempt a Bently GT type of performance coupe. This would not only enhance their image but would better play to those who buy Cadillacs. Imagine a better funded CTS like coupe sold at a little higher price. .

Cadillac has never been really taken seriously for sports cars and now is not the time to waste more money trying to do it again. The Allante and XLR were nice but both cost a lot of money and had little impact on Cadillac.

Might badge a mid engine sports car under The GM performance Division banner and sell it as selected GM dealers. This way it could represent all of GM and only be sold at dealers that could handle it.

GM had a good thing going with the GMPD tuning and badging and they should go back to it as each and every model they touched was one of the best vehicles GM has made in years. They could trump SVO and SRT easily if called upon. The FORD GT was a SVO product and the VIper is now a SRT product so why not a GMPD division? Holden has HSV so why not something here.

[A Horse With No Name]

How is it again that the Malibu "doesn't compete" with the Fusion & sonata??

I personally like the Fusion better than the Malibu, but I find them comparable.

[Robert Hall]

How is it again that the Malibu "doesn't compete" with the Fusion & sonata??

I personally like the Fusion better than the Malibu, but I find them comparable.

From what I've read, it sounds like the big negatives of the new Malibu are the limited engine choice (only the Eco version is available so far) and the short wheelbase results in limited rear legroom (they cut the wheelbase by 5 inches, the new Fusion has a wheelbase 6 inches longer than the new Malibu).

[balthazar]

^ OK, but does that mean they no longer "compete" ?

[Robert Hall]

^ OK, but does that mean they no longer "compete" ?

it competes but has shortcomings..

I suspect the Malibu will be at the bottom of the list when the magazines do comparisons w/ the new Focus..it hasn't done well in the comparison tests so far..

[balthazar]

RE the O/P : I'd much prefer this ferrari kicking come from Cadillac than Chevy.

Helluva lot more buzz factor...

[dwightlooi]

I would rather see Cadillac attempt a Bently GT type of performance coupe. This would not only enhance their image but would better play to those who buy Cadillacs. Imagine a better funded CTS like coupe sold at a little higher price. .

The other thing they can do is to build a V12 GT car based on the C7 Platform but with Caddy's unique sheet metal. In this case the expenditures will be mostly on the V12 powerplant instead on the chassis. The most straight forward path to a V12 is to cast a block that is essentially two 3.6 DI V6 mated end to end to form a 7.2 liter 12-cylinder mill. Such an engine will make ~640 bhp and 550 lb-ft. Sharing the valvetrain components, rods, pistons and combustion chamber design which minimize development and tooling costs. The same Getrag 7-speed Dual Clutch auto can be sourced. The car will probably be somewhat on the heavier side (~3500 lbs) although still pretty darn decent compared to the porky competition given that the Vette platform is extremely mass efficient. Ultimately though this will be a different animal with a focus on V12 clout and grand touring grandeur rather than outright performance. It won't beat Ferrari, it probably won't even match the ZR1 in sheer performance, but it'll make Aston Vantage buyers think twice.

The upside to this approach is that it'll also create a befitting engine for whatever large sedan flagship Caddy has in mind. Such a vehicle would probably use the LF3 3.0 Bi-turbo V6 as the entry engine, possibly a Gen V pushrod V8 as the mid-level choice with the V12 as the top tier option. A case can even be made that with the V12 the V8 can be bypassed altogether with practicality and fuel efficiency oriented buyers being steered towards the TT V6 while buyers while those wanting an over the top car gets the V12. Without a V12, the top tier engine will likely be a supercharged pushrod V8 which may not carry as much desirability as refined 12-cylinder engine.

Edited June 21, 2012 by dwightlooi

[smk4565]

How is it again that the Malibu "doesn't compete" with the Fusion & sonata??

Most car magazines rank it lower, and it does sell worse than the Altima, Camry, Accord, Fusion and Sonata. And it isn't like the Malibu has any price mark ups to make it a big profit center. My guess would be the Malibu has the highest rental car sale percentage of that list of cars, on retail sales is is probably really trailing those 5.

[hyperv6]

The V12 is the wrong way to go even in limited cars.

Many are moving already from V10 and V12 engines to V8 and V8 Turbo engines. Bently is already making a big push to buyers to the new V8,

There is a storm coming and there will be little and limited use for anything over a V12. You can spit all the numbers you want but the market is moving away from your thinking and your numbers. Don't try to justify it to me just try to justify it to the industry how you are right and they are wong,

As for mid engine. Hmmmm If you wanted to do a super Vette in the long rumored mid engine and call it a Corvette Duntov or even a Zora fine. But a mid engine Cadillac is anything but what Cadillac ever has represented. A sports luxury coupe with the engine up front would be fine. A Eldorado GT would be great. But mid engine is a very limited car to use and expensive car to maintain. Mid engine is great for a low profile but for handling and balance it can be done with the engine up front.

I own a mid engine car and I have the suspension tuned to where GM would not take it. I have it handling to high level and It is fun but I fully understand and have driven front engine cars that did as well or better.

I just feel Cadillac has a chance to compete with the Bently coupe or even the BMW and Benz GT coupes but I see no way they will ever make a real dent in the market of the mid engine cars at the level they would do it. THey could build one but few would buy it at that kind of price. Resale on some of the mid engine V8 Ferraris are bad enough and I would expect a Cadillac resale would be at the bottom of the pile.

I will admit it is a nice dream but reality will bite you in the but on this one.

[smk4565]

People have talked about how the Allante and XLR failed, a car like this would be double the price (adjust Allante for inflation). If Cadillac can't make it at $75,000, they aren't going to make it at $150,000. Cadillac has too little street cred to try a move like this. People that own or are about to buy an Aston Martin, Ferrari or Lamborghini aren't even thinking about Cadillac, let alone walking into a dealership.

The only way Cadillac could make a name for themselves with this is to top the Bugatti Veyron, and that would cost so much money and they would lose money on every one sold. And even if they built it, people would think it would just fall apart.

[G. David Felt]

RE the O/P : I'd much prefer this ferrari kicking come from Cadillac than Chevy.

Helluva lot more buzz factor...

You have this one nailed properly. The Ferrari kicking should come from Cadillac. I know there are people who talk about the Corvette as if it is the god of ultimate cheap but fast performance and it is for what you get in a ZR1, but we are beyond this and only Cadillac could attempt and deliver a true luxury performance auto.

Chevy and Cadillac are two different markets.

[Robert Hall]

RE the O/P : I'd much prefer this ferrari kicking come from Cadillac than Chevy.

Helluva lot more buzz factor...

You have this one nailed properly. The Ferrari kicking should come from Cadillac. I know there are people who talk about the Corvette as if it is the god of ultimate cheap but fast performance and it is for what you get in a ZR1, but we are beyond this and only Cadillac could attempt and deliver a true luxury performance auto.

Chevy and Cadillac are two different markets.

The thing is, the Corvette is the sports car..it's the one beating Ferraris in international competition. Cadillac is a luxury brand, competing with Mercedes, BMW, etc. Different niches.

[balthazar]

Yet mercedees, Bentley, Audi.... A lot of lux brands have a 'supercar' somehow....

RE V-10s & V-12s.... IMO it's not so much a trend as a correction to sustainable levels. We have multi-cylinder (more than 8 ) engines from so many brands, including 'entry level ones' like VW, Ford & Dodge. The business case isn't there for so many, esp when their power advantages are being eroded from below (V8s).

I believe there's still a business case for a 'work of art' V-12, making it more than just a call-out on the rear deck, or looking like a window A/C unit underhood :

Edited June 21, 2012 by balthazar

[G. David Felt]

Yet mercedees, Bentley, Audi.... A lot of lux brands have a 'supercar' somehow....

RE V-10s & V-12s.... IMO it's not so much a trend as a correction to sustainable levels. We have multi-cylinder (more than 8 ) engines from so many brands, including 'entry level ones' like VW, Ford & Dodge. The business case isn't there for so many, esp when their power advantages are being eroded from below (V8s).

I believe there's still a business case for a 'work of art' V-12, where it's not buried in tubing & plastic shields, making it more than just a call-out on the rear deck.

I agree, just as Ferrari and Lambo tend to encase their engines in Glass to show off the Jewel of an Engine, this same Performance ride would make sense as a limited edition from Cadillac. Just like the limited Performance editions from BMW and MB usually out of their M and AMG divisions.

[balthazar]

^ See above for the AMG window air conditioner look...

This is more what I'm thinking about :

Edited June 21, 2012 by balthazar

[hyperv6]

^ See above for the AMG window air conditioner look...

This is more what I'm thinking about :

This is the look the LTS V8 needs sans windows.

[Drew Dowdell]

How is it again that the Malibu "doesn't compete" with the Fusion & sonata??

Build quality. Fuel economy. Engine options. Interior room.

[Camino LS6]

^ See above for the AMG window air conditioner look...

This is more what I'm thinking about :

I could go with a plan that creates an engine with this sort of look and builds something interesting around it using the same design philosophy. It could be a supercar, or a flagship, or a SL competitor - but this sort of refined look, extended to the whole car, is exactly the kind of impressive I'd like to see from any manufacturer. The attention to detail just makes the whole thing so much more impressive.

Whatever Cadillac does, it has to set them apart from the crowd in a singular way.

In times like these, maybe especially in times like these, something that is inspirational and aspirational has to be held out where we can see it. If you provide a vision of what could be, and make it real, it will draw people to itself and reflect well on all that you do.

There is a reason that the motion picture industry did so well during the Great Depression - people need their hopes and dreams.

Cadillac would do well to provide some of that.

Edited June 21, 2012 by Camino LS6

[dwightlooi]

A V12 is all the more attractive if everyone else is moving away from it. Rarity = exclusivity = desirability. While force fed V8s may have better fuel economy, fuel economy by and large is not important in this category. It's not important because the category of buyers shopping for a supercar or a flagship ultra-luxury sedan doesn't care about fuel economy. It is also not important because the tiny volume of cars sold in these categories also means that whatever the fuel economy numbers are like it won't even register in the 5th significant digit as far as CAFE goes and only the 3rd sig fig matters for the purpose of penalties and published ratings. What's important is that the buyer has to believe that this is an over the top car with over the top performance and it's something that very few individuals can afford or obtain.

In fact, a 14 liter V16 made from siamesing two small block V8s will be even better. At 1100 hp normally aspirated it'll also give you all the bragging rights you need. The problem being that such an engine will be pretty darn long and may be a liability from a packaging and weight distribution standpoint, that's if you can find an available transmission for it. Besides, a V12 is naturally 100% balanced; a V16 is not.

[Camino LS6]

I like the specs, but think Corvette would be the appropriate place for a supercar. A limited edition high end Corvette model above the ZR-1. Corvette has the international racing heritage and brand recognition.

I'd love to see a street version of this mid-engined Corvette built as a Ferrari/Lambo competitor...

If Cadillac were going to build a high end sports car or sporty model, the target should be something like the Merc SL or SLS...front engine, RWD coupe/convertible...like the XLR but better executed.

If Cadillac were to build a supercar, starting with the underpinnings of this racing Corvette would be a great place to start. GM has enough hot rodders in the ranks to come up with something that will knock your socks off using available resources. They should take a page from Holden's book and create a silk purse from a sow's ear. Remember Jon Moss?

He'd be a great choice to lead the effort if they could coax him back into the game for the project. Some people just have a great talent for assembling existing pieces in a wholly new way that yields a result greater than the sum of its parts. The whole thing could be done at a cost much lower than the standard development of a new model.

Think Saleen S7, or similar efforts in the past.

It could be done.

[Camino LS6]

As for bodywork...

And remember the Cadillac LMP?

[dwightlooi]

As for bodywork...

And remember the Cadillac LMP?

I don't think that's the LMP... that is the Cien concept coupe.

Anyway, the point is that if you spend $80K on a composite monocoque, power it with a $15K DI-VVT (Gen V) V8 engine and a $10K Getrag 7-spd DC transmission. You can have a $150K car in the 2,700~2,800 lbs class (about 200 lbs less than the C7 vette) with about 550hp and 500 lb-ft. All you have to do is compare that to the 3,200 lbs Ferrari 458 with 562hp and 398 lb-ft. Such a car has the potential to be play with and beat with the best the world has to offer in every performance respect.

That you won't sell a lot of such cars really isn't a problem as long as you develop it and build it in a manner that requires a large run rate to break even and be profitable.

[balthazar]

I thought I read most ferraris were 4000 lbs.

I always like the 'underdog' aspect vs Ferrari; ala Ford GT40.

[Camino LS6]

Dwight: I was just mentioning the LMP so that folks would remember that Cadillac has in fact done some racing recently. The Cien was Main thrust of my post.

Balthy: I love the GT40 vs, Ferrari story!

[balthazar]

Balthy: I love the GT40 vs, Ferrari story!

Pure Americana, baby!

[dwightlooi]

I thought I read most ferraris were 4000 lbs.

I always like the 'underdog' aspect vs Ferrari; ala Ford GT40.

Not the 458. The California is 3800~3900 lbs, but that is more a Grand Touring car that an outright performance model.

[G. David Felt]

Balthy: I love the GT40 vs, Ferrari story!

Pure Americana, baby!

+1

[riviera74]

Challenge Ferrari? Cadillac?! Really? Seriously?!

Call me in five years when Cadillac is making real money hand over fist and gaining market share from Lexus and the Germans. Then maybe I would consider a Cadillac supercar.

[hyperv6]

Balthy: I love the GT40 vs, Ferrari story!

Pure Americana, baby!

+1

There was a lot of England in the GT 40 too, so while it is termed an American Ford did get a lot of old world craftsmanship on the bodies and chassis. I think Holman Moody took delivery of much from Europe before they did their engine and prep magic. The repo cars Holmans son did used the same body bucks in England. A lot of the car was based on a Lola too and again English too.

The early cars did use Corvair tail lights though go USA 1!

[balthazar]

The GT40 was as American as the Shelby Cobra, which is to say come race day, it was what was underwood that did the Ferrari killing, not where the body panels may have first been built.

[hyperv6]

The GT40 was as American as the Shelby Cobra, which is to say come race day, it was what was underwood that did the Ferrari killing, not where the body panels may have first been built.

That has been a long held argument neither of us will ever solve since even the experts and owners can't even

Challenge Ferrari? Cadillac?! Really? Seriously?!

Call me in five years when Cadillac is making real money hand over fist and gaining market share from Lexus and the Germans. Then maybe I would consider a Cadillac supercar.

agree.

Finally a rational thought of reality here. I have to bump you to a 3 positive.

I would bump that maybe 8 years? It will take while to get all the other needed product in house first.

[Robert Hall]

The GT40 was as American as the Shelby Cobra, which is to say come race day, it was what was underwood that did the Ferrari killing, not where the body panels may have first been built.

It was an Anglo-American venture, built by Ford in England, developed by Americans and Brits. The book 'Goes Like Hell' is a very good book on this subject...

Edited June 26, 2012 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[hyperv6]

The GT40 was as American as the Shelby Cobra, which is to say come race day, it was what was underwood that did the Ferrari killing, not where the body panels may have first been built.

It was an Anglo-American venture, built by Ford in England, developed by Americans and Brits. The book 'Goes Like Hell' is a very good book on this subject...

I also recomend this book. It is a very good book!

[hyperv6]

Anyone notice today the reports of BMW and Toyota working closer? As I have said in the past some prominate companies will be looking for dance partners to help foot the develpment of future advance products. BMW was one I named and I also expect Honda to be looking to share the cost burden.

Building luxury cars for the future under the many regulations in NA and Europe will be expensive and difficult even for those leading he class right now. This is why they are working hard to get their customers to think down size in cars and engines.

This is where cars like the ATS and their low weight will play an important roll.

The ATS and the future of the ATS is the most important thing Cadillas has going that we know of. Right now lets get them to learn how to make and sell class leading sedans and learn how to hold onto the lead in 12-15 years.

Edited June 26, 2012 by hyperv6

[Camino LS6]

Bah!

They need to do something interesting, and that right now!

Bold is what's needed.

The rest is just a given - and boring as hell.

[G. David Felt]

The GT40 was as American as the Shelby Cobra, which is to say come race day, it was what was underwood that did the Ferrari killing, not where the body panels may have first been built.

It was an Anglo-American venture, built by Ford in England, developed by Americans and Brits. The book 'Goes Like Hell' is a very good book on this subject...

I also recomend this book. It is a very good book!

Over all Still English, British and American, but still English, SO AMERICAN AS HELL!!!

[hyperv6]

The GT40 was as American as the Shelby Cobra, which is to say come race day, it was what was underwood that did the Ferrari killing, not where the body panels may have first been built.

It was an Anglo-American venture, built by Ford in England, developed by Americans and Brits. The book 'Goes Like Hell' is a very good book on this subject...

I also recomend this book. It is a very good book!

Over all Still English, British and American, but still English, SO AMERICAN AS HELL!!!

England.....that's an American colony isn't it?

Edited June 26, 2012 by hyperv6