Solstice Drives Down Average Age of Pontiac Buyers

[carman21]

The xB is ugly. The only person that I have ever seen interested in the car are both over 50 years old. Well, It appears that the tiny cars are merely mid-life crisis cars. Boomers whose first cars were the Toyota Corollas of the 1970s are now buying these tiny cars for themselves or for their kids. I have never seen anyone that is from 16-26 in age ever act like they would want one. Many would be caught dead in one. My generation wants flashy, fast cars that are luxurious and affordable. Not ugly tin cans. That is what Boomers settled for during the Oil Crisis of the 70s. Scion is a failure. The best thing Toyota can do is to turn into a cheaper altenative to Toyota, aka Toyota's version of Kia or Hyundai. As for Toyota, their average age is rising quickly as it sucks up WW2 gen buyers. The Camry effectively replaced the Century & Cutlass as the old fogey-mobile. Meanwhile, Corolla sales are being sucked away to Mazda, Hyundai, & Kia.

I think that if Pontiac got its own unique delta compact that it would be the best selling compact in the US. Just like how the Aveo is the best-selling Subcompact. The Aura could be the best selling Midsizer whle the Lucerne remains the best-selling Full-sizer.

[Mr.Krinkle]

Neither does that parent.

woooo, thats deep. its for your own damn good.

[Mr.Krinkle]

I can find exactly zero products from the asians that will ever tempt me to lay down the cash.

i have to agree with you on that one. i can honestly say not a single car or truck interests me. notta one.

[z28luvr01]

Evok, I'll say this about your '05 to '06 #'s.

Pontiac did not have as many exciting vehicles out in '05 that were counted. They still had left over Grand Ams and a large selection of G6 sedans. Also, naturally the Solstice.

Now, the age has dropped and Toyotas has gone up. Lets face it. Pontiac has the G6 coupe, the Solstice as well as the Grand Prix GXP, all of which appeal to younger ages.

One of my ex girlfriends owns a G6 coupe. I'm 22, I own the Solstice. One of my coworkers is 24 and owns a Grand Prix GXP. I've heard several people tell me they want the G6 coupe GTP or the Solstice GXP.

The #'s are only skewed based on what you want to believe.

Toyotas are boring cars. We've all said they are boring cars, and now the boring older people are starting to see that.

Pontiacs gains are true. I see it everyday.

I don't think anyone has hit on this yet, but don't forget about the dropping of the Bonneville, for what it's worth. Bonneville's death took with it a significant number of "older" Pontiac buyers. I'm not bashing the car, but at its price point it was out of the reach of most younger buyers.

[Camino LS6]

What in this thread could possibly remind me of the parent who proclaims his/her love for their child meanwhile beating them violently with a leather strap?

[enzl]

I'm one of the naysayers (or truth-tellers, depending upon your perspective.)

I love GM. Fell in love with cars in large part because of 70's TransAms (Screaming chickens, Smokey & the Bandit, et al.), Corvettes and an endless fascination with the tragic arc of DeLorean's career/life.

The child beating analogy would be accurate only if we were doing something to punish that exceeded the perceived offense- We're just expressing an opinion, on a site whse motto is 'fresh ideas for a better GM'

...for all of you who are crowing about 'No Japanese cars appeal to me'--tell me which GM products turn you on? Other than the brand new GMT900's, the 'vette and the Kappa twins, what product is GM serving that gets you excited? (You may need to get out more.)

Most importantly- Things have to get better at GM or the ship is going down. This isn't an intellectual exercise or a hypothetical...there are REAL people, experts in their fields, that are predicting GM's demise. The same old, same old of rental car interiors, fleet sales propping up entire factories' production and the presumption that 1 out of 2 shoppers will purchase a GM ride are quaintly old-fashioned, and, because of the precariousness of the situation, potentially life threatening. I have a job that depends, in part, upon GM's product. They've let me down, they've let my employees down and, for those that are blinded in their passion, they've let you down too!

I'm not asking you to agree with me, just see that my points have merit and thought behind them and, best intentions so that GM can right the ship. You wanna rearrange the deckchairs on the Titanic?- please, go ahead---I'd rather be down below trying to fix the problem and participating in my own fate. I'm not confident the current captain fully understands the situation and it seems some of you don't either. If what I'm saying bothers you, fine, but it comes from the same passion that you have...I'm sure Turbo and evok and others feel the same way.

Edited April 21, 2006 by enzl

[Mr.Krinkle]

...the philosphy of futility...

It is not surprising that indoctrination and propaganda should have reached their highest forms in these societies. In the 20th century, in particular these are largely contributions of the U.S. and England. It grew out of the First World War when England had what they called a Ministry of Information, which any reader of George Orwell knows what it means. The main purpose of this Ministry was to convince the U.S. - meaning primarily educated Americans and intellectuals - that they better get into the War with England. The Ministry concocted all kinds of tales. It brainwashed the educated elite, including famous people like John Dewey, magnificently. The population of the U.S. was mostly pacifistic and did not want to get involved in European conflict. Others like Adolf Hitler were impressed too.

Who am I talking to? Mostly the 80 per cent. The 20 per cent do not want to hear about this. They already know what truths they are supposed to believe. But the general population is much more open, inquisitive, concerned and wants to act to change the world.

basically, people need to be told what to buy. not all but most. thats the 80 and 20%. they must be convinced for whatever reasons because theya re willing to listen.

if you accept that than its not unreasonable to believe the opposite. that they can be swayed what not to buy. makes sense in theory.

this is basic marketing doctrine. you hype the good about your product--not the bad stuff. broken ball joints, engine sludge, all types of gremlins, or whatever wont sell a car. they can be used to deter a sale.

you want to sell and no one will buy it if you yourself cant find any good.

every time something new comes out the comments are immediately drawn to the perceived shortcomings and then deemed predetermined to fail. thus ripping the breath of hope from the chests without even a fighting chance. in some cases even before it hits the market.

sometimes just by pictures.

its great to be critical and analysts say sell sell sell once their nickel is in danger.

the junk rating doesnt help and faith is essentially lost and directed elsewhere. somewhere else they can make a buck

a company that has helped and continues to help this country for more than a century and nothing doing, the hell with them. its fickle to say the least.

business aside...business as usual too i suppose, but i digress.

for me, personally, i have never been drawn to japanese designs. its not a bias they just never appeald to me. from the econo image to lousy sounding exhausts to cheap italian sports car knock offs--i always thought the rest of the world, USA, britain, italy, europe offered more intriguing and inspiring cars.

currently, the tahoes, cts', grand prix(still), g6ers sedans, bonnevilles-bastards,

gto's...i could go on...but these all apeal to me more so than the accords and civics. the mazdas seem ok, but id still prefer any of the above. (i really do like pontiacs...may have been olds, but that has ship sailed)

as far as the current board from the best i can tell they are doing what needs to be done.

i think the plays have been called. the plans are in effect and so far so good.

the more time unfolds the clearer this will be. a lot of changes have been made aready and more to come.

its taking time but these problems didnt happen overnight its not fair to assume they will leave overnight either.

im not trying to be overly optimistic but if you dont have faith in the products then yourre giving up worse and easier than anyone else. lets just fold up the tent and forget about it beccause its all garbage.

for the record, i think many of these cars and trucks are just fine, and can be competetive. dcx is a good example of what can be done in a relatively short time

the stuff is there, more with each new release...it just needs to be sold now.

[turbo200]

I'm one of the naysayers (or truth-tellers, depending upon your perspective.)

I love GM. Fell in love with cars in large part because of 70's TransAms (Screaming chickens, Smokey & the Bandit, et al.), Corvettes and an endless fascination with the tragic arc of DeLorean's career/life.

The child beating analogy would be accurate only if we were doing something to punish that exceeded the perceived offense- We're just expressing an opinion, on a site whse motto is 'fresh ideas for a better GM'

...for all of you who are crowing about 'No Japanese cars appeal to me'--tell me which GM products turn you on? Other than the brand new GMT900's, the 'vette and the Kappa twins, what product is GM serving that gets you excited? (You may need to get out more.)

Most importantly- Things have to get better at GM or the ship is going down. This isn't an intellectual exercise or a hypothetical...there are REAL people, experts in their fields, that are predicting GM's demise. The same old, same old of rental car interiors, fleet sales propping up entire factories' production and the presumption that 1 out of 2 shoppers will purchase a GM ride are quaintly old-fashioned, and, because of the precariousness of the situation, potentially life threatening. I have a job that depends, in part, upon GM's product. They've let me down, they've let my employees down and, for those that are blinded in their passion, they've let you down too!

I'm not asking you to agree with me, just see that my points have merit and thought behind them and, best intentions so that GM can right the ship. You wanna rearrange the deckchairs on the Titanic?- please, go ahead---I'd rather be down below trying to fix the problem and participating in my own fate. I'm not confident the current captain fully understands the situation and it seems some of you don't either. If what I'm saying bothers you, fine, but it comes from the same passion that you have...I'm sure Turbo and evok and others feel the same way.

I will add that as a long-time visitor of this site, among many others, we have seen GM disappoint us on too many occasions. We have asked for changes and have not received responses on too many occasions. We have shown our opinions are of merit and are not contrived or aimed for the detriment of the company----and we have also been reasonable in our requests, for the most part, and have shown we are educated consumers. We back GM, but we support the right for choice, and, largely, we follow design and engineering of the industry as a whole. We are all very qualified consumers---GM, along with many other manufacturers use this site as a test bed for thier products, and rightly so, this is like a really good, really informed test panel group. We know what's out there, we know what we like, and most of us are not afraid to tell it like it is. That's what makes this site successful. We are very qualified to share our opinions, and not to toot my own horn, but I feel there is a lot of creativity and passion going in here, in some cases more than inside GM's own walls, that needs to be transferred to GM. That's why they read us. That's why they keep coming back for more to see if we're pleased. We represent a very informed piece of the consumer pie that actually really studies and analyzes design, in a mostly informed fashion. Getting back to the disappointments---there are clearly too many examples for me to cite. I do remember meeting with a GM designer long before the Lucerne and Lacrosse, and this latest batch of almost there also rans product, where I was told those cars would be lame, but beyond those Buick would see a revolution. The very same words came from insiders/analysts who visit this site. Could something have been done? Yes, too much priority/money was placed in getting these cars out, like the new Impala, that was far from competitive in the first place, 5 years ago, and basically basing them on the same car/platform and rereleasing them only to see the same exact scenario play out, where the competition's car represent such a genuine advancement, the catch up car GM released barely caught up with the old generation of the competition already on its way out. We have seen this too many time. And we have complained of this too many times. I have sat here, spend thousands of hours, sadly, but fortunately [i like sharing opinions, and listening to others' opinions], and have complained about the product since day one. Product product product was the call that was made. Not for somehting that will catch up, but something that will set fire to the marketplace. Many around here have said that line too often. With GM, the only real product that has done that in recent times have been the Z06/vette, GMT900s, and the CTS----for different reasons each, but on each car the design was treated with utmost importance, creativity came through, and you have success. Design is something we have been far critical of here. And we weren't the first. I can remember reading analysts' comments years ago from press releases discussing the failure of GM's cars and the percieved reasons. always cited was boring design. they failed to catch the attention, for the most part. There were some sterling examples like mentioned above, and others beyond those, but for the most part GM has lacked the balls to be really creative and bold. This will end up killing them if they don't react to it, and make design truly innovative. The competition is killing them because of it.

[turbo200]

all that being said, to respond to MR. Krinkle and all those who feel we are taking the "breath out of thier chests" with our criticism and analyses.....ultimately our opinion holds as much weight as you let it. When we are being super critical, which we often are here, cue Aura thread, it's because we pour over the details and are more than a little obsessive in how we want to see things improve. This, however, does not mean that car will not find an audience........but if it doesn't you better be sure we will know the correct answer for why it did not [it usually is either execution, didn't stand out enough, isn't up to the standards, a pick of the three]. The American audience is obviously a lot less critical, for the most part, than most here. But the import consumers really are an educated and spoiled bunch. Just any car will not woo them back. That's why it's so necessary to constantly put out cars that shame the competition. So far GM has proved lackadaisical [understatement of the year] in this regard.

[enzl]

...the philosphy of futility...

It is not surprising that indoctrination and propaganda should have reached their highest forms in these societies. In the 20th century, in particular these are largely contributions of the U.S. and England. It grew out of the First World War when England had what they called a Ministry of Information, which any reader of George Orwell knows what it means. The main purpose of this Ministry was to convince the U.S. - meaning primarily educated Americans and intellectuals - that they better get into the War with England. The Ministry concocted all kinds of tales. It brainwashed the educated elite, including famous people like John Dewey, magnificently. The population of the U.S. was mostly pacifistic and did not want to get involved in European conflict. Others like Adolf Hitler were impressed too.

Who am I talking to? Mostly the 80 per cent. The 20 per cent do not want to hear about this. They already know what truths they are supposed to believe. But the general population is much more open, inquisitive, concerned and wants to act to change the world.

  basically,  people need to be told what to buy.  not all but most.  thats the 80 and 20%.  they must be convinced for whatever reasons because theya re willing to listen.

if you accept that than its not unreasonable to believe the opposite.  that they can be swayed what not to buy.  makes sense in theory.

this is basic marketing doctrine.  you hype the good about your product--not the bad stuff.  broken ball joints, engine sludge,  all types of gremlins, or whatever wont sell a car.  they can be used to deter a sale.

you want to sell  and no one will buy it if you yourself cant find any good.

every time something new comes out the comments are immediately drawn to the perceived shortcomings and then deemed predetermined to fail.  thus ripping the breath of hope from the chests without even a fighting chance.  in some cases even before it hits the market. 

sometimes just by pictures.

its great to be critical and analysts say sell sell sell once their nickel is in danger.

the junk rating doesnt help and faith is essentially lost and directed elsewhere.  somewhere else they can make a buck

a company that has helped and continues to help this country for more than a century and nothing doing,  the hell with them.  its fickle to say the least.

business aside...business as usual too i suppose, but i digress.

  for me, personally, i have never been drawn to japanese designs.  its not a bias they just never appeald to me.  from the econo image to lousy sounding exhausts to cheap italian sports car knock offs--i always thought the rest of the world, USA, britain, italy, europe offered more intriguing and inspiring cars.

currently, the tahoes, cts', grand prix(still), g6ers sedans, bonnevilles-bastards,

gto's...i could go on...but these all apeal to me more so than the accords and civics.  the mazdas seem ok,  but id still prefer any of the above. (i really do like pontiacs...may have been olds, but that has ship sailed)

as far as the current board from the best i can tell they are doing what needs to be done. 

i think the plays have been called.  the plans are in effect and so far so good.

the more time unfolds the clearer this will be.  a lot of changes have been made aready and more to come.

its taking time but these problems didnt happen overnight its not fair to assume they will leave overnight either.

im not trying to be overly optimistic but if you dont have faith in the products then yourre giving up worse and easier than anyone else.  lets just fold up the tent and forget about it beccause its all garbage. 

for the record, i think many of these cars and trucks are just fine, and can be competetive.  dcx is a good example of what can be done in a relatively short time

the stuff is there, more with each new release...it just needs to be sold now.

You make a ton of valid, excellent points, but the problem is that the product does not meet or beat expectations....yes, the mindless masses seek guidance, but there still has to be fire underneath the smoke to maintain life...to stretch the metaphor.

In the opinion of myself and many others, the latest crop of GM stuff, barring the limited production models and the GMT-900's, are just not world-beaters...they don't have the tangibles down to even bother with the intangibles.

Ex. Aura-great, award winning concept-mediocre, half-hearted execution that LOOKS like lots of other stuff on the road. You could've thrown a grenade at the Auras at the NY Auto show and not killed a soul!

G6 'vert- Where is it? I've seen production-ready photos for 18 months!

G5-need I say more??? At least give us a hatch or a Kappa sedan, please!

Lucerne- 4 speed auto on a $35k+ car...c'mon

Where's the Camaro?

Where's RWD anything other than trucks?

Why do Caddy interiors pale in comparison to Audi interiors?

And the list goes on....

These are the facts. Hard to accept, perhaps, but true. Denial only perpetuates the problem. I hope GM can do it and certainly the latest Wall Street numbers are encouraging, but they are only a start down a long road....

[Mr.Krinkle]

were gms product always class leading? was there never a better choice, as far as competion goes?

the germans have always built good cars same with japan. why is it that now it seems to matter more to the "truth tellers" telling "us" like it is.

a design can always be improved upon (hopefully) and everyone likes to have their opinions taken as gospel. cr still gripes how no one at gm listens to their complaints about the cts. too f!ckin bad.

the solstice and sky are both "sold out" even with some tepid reviews and comparisons and the "truth tellers" who cite lack of an impractical trunk space or chunkiness.

its a hit regardless.

the cars and trucks for the most part are fine, and i truly believe its an effective compaign by the competition to convince otherwise.

no one is taking their buick up to a buck 15 and power sliding through the esses.

but if an avolon has a better slalom rating it must mean its more suitable?

i think many people are simply holding on to grudges from long long ago and never decided to give that second chance. be it their own or their parents. maybe they shouldnt-but the next time their new, better car breaks down-where will that leave them...besides the side of the road. i guess lately theres enough makes out there to really be on the perpetual search for the perfect car.

back to my first question--was their ever really no competition for gm... ever?

edit: healthy critism should always be welcome. same goes for skepticism.

Edited April 21, 2006 by Mr.Krinkle

[Mr.Krinkle]

all that being said, to respond to MR. Krinkle and all those who feel we are taking the "breath out of thier chests" with our criticism and analyses.....ultimately our opinion holds as much weight as you let it.

...see thats my bone of contention. and its not me, i dont let myself get easily pursauded.

its that people do ultimately listen to what you say. that was the point. not all, but a majority. selling ice to eskimos and the freezer to put it in or the ketchup popsicle to someone wearing white gloves.

these expressions exist for a reason.

--as far as the g6 vert goes--i believe there were some major problems with the roof. what kind i dont a clue...itd be awful if they didnt fully fix it.

the other stuff makes sense, and itd be really tough to argue all those things

but the rwd, thats a shame. for so long its been fwd and its foolish to want rwd, especiall here in ny and all the "snow states" and for the most part have just been conditioned to that. its hard for me to fault them for that one. but yeah they need to be on the ball with that.

the interiors and 4 speed...yeah. i think thats on its way once it cycles through.

then the next issues...awd, and im sure well find plenty more

[enzl]

were gms product always class leading?  was there never a better choice, as far as competion goes?

the germans have always built good cars same with japan.  why is it that now it seems to matter more to the "truth tellers" telling "us" like it is.

a design can always be improved upon (hopefully) and everyone likes to have their opinions taken as gospel.  cr still gripes how no one at gm listens to their complaints about the cts.  too f@#kin bad. 

the solstice and sky are both "sold out"  even with some tepid reviews and comparisons and the "truth tellers" who cite lack of an impractical trunk space or chunkiness.

its a hit regardless.

the cars and trucks for the most part are fine, and i truly believe its an effective compaign by the competition to convince otherwise.

no one is taking their buick up to a buck 15 and power sliding through the esses.

but if an avolon has a better slalom rating it must mean its more suitable? 

i think many people are simply holding on to grudges from long long ago and never decided to give that second chance.  be it their own or their parents.  maybe they shouldnt-but the next time their new, better car breaks down-where will that leave them...besides the side of the road.  i guess lately theres enough makes out there to really be on the perpetual search for the perfect car.

back to my first question--was their ever really no competition for gm... ever?

You're right...there always has been better product, just not so many choices that are also better.

The limited edition Kappas are sold out because of that fact....the Wilmington plant will put out less than 40,000 cars in '06....the capacity at that plant was over 200k in its heyday! ---That's BAD planning by GM, not something I'd brag about.

Newsflash: People aren't buying either Buicks or Toyota Avalons because of their skidpad numbers...

You call 'em grudges, I say its simple common sense: I (meaning joe 6-pack) got burned by my ________(insert 1980-1998 GM, Ford, VW, whatever)---why would I take a chance with $20-50K of my hard earned cash with the _________(insert same name as before) when a perfectly nice, reliable (as per everyone but some of the posters here) Toyota/Honda will shuttle me and my 2.5 kids to soccer practice every day. You are asking people to ignore good old fashioned common sense, something most Americans have in abundance, even if they don't know skidpad figures...

And, just to reinforce my feeling that you speak from passion and not logic, I quote the most absurd part --"the cars and trucks for the most part are fine, and i truly believe its an effective compaign by the competition to convince otherwise"---

yes-you've discovered advertising and PR---c'mon dude....you never saw a commerical for anything that compared other competing products negatively...

Edited April 21, 2006 by enzl

[turbo200]

were gms product always class leading?  was there never a better choice, as far as competion goes?

the germans have always built good cars same with japan.  why is it that now it seems to matter more to the "truth tellers" telling "us" like it is.

a design can always be improved upon (hopefully) and everyone likes to have their opinions taken as gospel.  cr still gripes how no one at gm listens to their complaints about the cts.  too f!ckin bad. 

the solstice and sky are both "sold out"  even with some tepid reviews and comparisons and the "truth tellers" who cite lack of an impractical trunk space or chunkiness.

its a hit regardless.

the cars and trucks for the most part are fine, and i truly believe its an effective compaign by the competition to convince otherwise.

no one is taking their buick up to a buck 15 and power sliding through the esses.

but if an avolon has a better slalom rating it must mean its more suitable? 

i think many people are simply holding on to grudges from long long ago and never decided to give that second chance.  be it their own or their parents.  maybe they shouldnt-but the next time their new, better car breaks down-where will that leave them...besides the side of the road.  i guess lately theres enough makes out there to really be on the perpetual search for the perfect car.

back to my first question--was their ever really no competition for gm... ever?

edit: healthy critism should always be welcome.  same goes for skepticism.

you still seem to be missing the point. our goal is to improve them to where they can actually stand on a competitive level with the world. at this point they are not there. look at caddy and compare them to mb. look at chevy and compare the cars to honda/toyota.

there's a world of difference there, in brand new products in some cases.

there are no grudges on my part. the reason i am loyal to GM is I grew up in a GM heavy family where the GMs were nothing but reliable. Mostly pieces of turd to drive around in, but damn reliable. And that's why I complain. I know where they could go if they put the right effort, but it's never consistent with GM. and the overwhelming majority here will agree with me. it's every once in a while that a renegade comes in here and challenges that perspective. I'm not saying that's who you are though.

surely a design can always be improved upon....but we're asking for GM designs to stand up, not just on equal grounds with the competition, but blow them away, because that is what is needed to win back reticent, loyal import shoppers.

[turbo200]

You're right...there always has been better product, just not so many choices that are also better.

The limited edition Kappas are sold out because of that fact....the Wilmington plant will put out less than 40,000 cars in '06....the capacity at that plant was over 200k in its heyday! ---That's BAD planning by GM, not something I'd brag about. bad product planning, bad factory/platform utilization. but so far a fantastic launch of really great, incredible looking cars. you won't see me badmouthing these cars. GM needs more cars built with this amount of passion. I say it all the time.

Newsflash: People aren't buying either Buicks or Toyota Avalons because of their skidpad numbers...

You call 'em grudges, I say its simple common sense: I (meaning joe 6-pack) got burned by my ________(insert 1980-1998 GM, Ford, VW, whatever)---why would I take a chance with  $20-50K of my hard earned cash with the _________(insert same name as before) when a perfectly nice, reliable (as per everyone but some of the posters here) Toyota/Honda will shuttle me and my 2.5 kids to soccer practice every day. You are asking people to ignore good old fashioned common sense, something most Americans have in abundance, even if they don't know skidpad figures...

and this is why import consumers are so reticent to shop domestic manufacturers. They have all migrated from GM, and upon stopping at Honda/Toyota were shocked, schocked, at the inherent goodness of those automobiles. from engineering detail, driving dynamics, efficiency, reliability, durability, quality......these are all areas GM has lagged the competition in the past 30 years, and are now paying dearly for it. evok put it best in this thread, up a couple posts. import customers are gm customers who were pissed off by gm and will not come back unless something dramatic pulls them in. and the younger generations just react to the environment. they learn imports are the better product, and this is forever cemented in thier mind. Gm has not done much to change that perception.

[enzl]

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artic.../604210374/1148

Just in case you felt GM was playing by a more ethical set of rules than those evil Japanese.....

[Mr.Krinkle]

some say common sense isnt so common...but it is widely acknowleded that toyota creams gm when it comes to public relations.

as ive said before, its not only media. i think thats borderline crazy to "feel"

that way.

for all intents and purposes the tundra is considered a better choice. the tacoma surely is for small truck but the trail in numbers significantly. the silverados and f150s have very loyal fans.

i used the skidpad nonsense as an example. i dont even have those figures but the results ultimately windu up in an overall score or rating...luxury and quietness. refinement. reliability.

im not making this a vs argument, it was just an example.

advertising and pr.dont be such a wise guy, my point is that they seem to be better at getting their message across and convincing people of they have what they want. whats so absurd about that?

see second sentence above.

yeah, it would be nice to just have a car that stomped their guts out but thats highly unlikely to ever happen, not because they cant its just not practical.

im governed by logic but sometimes my writing suggests something different. im passionate i cant help it.

[enzl]

some say common sense isnt so common...but it is widely acknowleded that toyota creams gm when it comes to public relations.

as ive said before,  its not only media.  i think thats borderline crazy to "feel"

that way.

for all intents and purposes the tundra is considered a better choice.  the tacoma surely is for small truck  but the trail in numbers significantly.  the silverados and f150s have very loyal fans.

i used the skidpad nonsense as an example.  i dont even have those figures but the results ultimately windu up in an overall score or rating...luxury and quietness.  refinement.  reliability. 

im not making this a vs argument, it was just an example.

advertising and pr.dont be such a wise guy, my point is that they seem to be better at getting their message across and convincing people of they have what they want.  whats so absurd about that?

see second sentence above.

yeah, it would be nice to just have a car that stomped their guts out but thats highly unlikely to ever happen, not because they cant its just not practical.

im governed by logic but sometimes my writing suggests something different.  im passionate i cant help it.

PR failures are part of GM's problem. They are a symptom of a disease ('Don't rock the boat-itis' along with a touch of the 'wait until next year' flu)that has festered within the organization for so long that they may have forgotten how to put out the very product they need to save themselves.

That's scary.

[Mr.Krinkle]

i think yourre misinterpreting what im saying.

evil japanese...thats your opinion. i said they have good marketing abilities.

maybe theyve read more books than us lazy americans. dont be so condescending its not very becoming.

maybe so good in fact we dont even know who they pay off. who knows, maybe the japanese paid of this shlub to say he got paid off by gm

get real

you believe everything you read too?

[enzl]

i think yourre misinterpreting what im saying.

evil japanese...thats your opinion.  i said they have good marketing abilities.

maybe theyve read more books than us lazy americans.  dont be so condescending its not very becoming.

maybe so good in fact we dont even know who they pay off.  who knows, maybe the japanese paid of this shlub to say he got paid off by gm

get real

you believe everything you read too?

NO. However, I tend to believe that Robert Riech, as a public figure, has less of an axe to grind than an anonymous poster on a web site...

You were just accusing competitors of using untoward practices- I linked to an article accusing GM of the same...am I to assume that you were actually complimenting their superior skills with your original point? Seems an odd way to do it--or, more likely, an untenable position made more so by facts?

Sorry if you find me condescending---just make it harder to prove you incorrect, and I promise I'll stop.

You've picked at me a few times and than scurried for cover under the standard GM-hater taunts...It's just not true----I'll agree to a truce, but if you give it, you've got to be able to take it....

[Mr.Krinkle]

the solstice is sold out--good news then you say "oh wilmington used to make 200k cars a year" whats your point? is the solstice not sold out. does that cease to make it a hit?--and no one was bragging. its a fact jack. you cant dispute that so you pick something else to nag about.

were all anonymous "posters" for the most part. i hold everyone equal and in the same regard.

"You were just accusing competitors of using untoward practices- I linked to an article accusing GM of the same...am I to assume that you were actually complimenting their superior skills with your original point? Seems an odd way to do it--or, more likely, an untenable position made more so by facts?"

it was a compliment of sorts. more of a criticism of gms practices.

and let me be clear--it wasnt accusatory. it was hypothetical. big BIG difference.

Sorry if you find me condescending---just make it harder to prove you incorrect, and I promise I'll stop.

ok, like i need your divine wisdom to know if im right or wrong. frankly, just because you think yourre right...doesnt make it so. newsflash, as you like to say.

you gonna by some gum next and show me how to chew it?

"You've picked at me a few times and than scurried for cover under the standard GM-hater taunts...It's just not true----I'll agree to a truce, but if you give it, you've got to be able to take it...."

i dont remember picking on you and i certainly dont recall using the gm hater b.s.

i have no problems with you or your points but the way you see some as enablers of gm or clouded by passion i can also wonder the same-how long can someone stay on the soapbox and constantly complain? (not necessarily you, so dont take it personally). import/domestic ford/chevy. hey whatever floats your boat.

has nothing ever broke down on you ever? granted a car is rather pricey but even so. my sony radio broke. i got a new one. a panasonic home entertainment broke...should i buy another panasonic? my tvs been fine for 10+ years so why not?

is there a certain amount of time that needs to pass before these upcoming cars become acceptable again?

Edited April 21, 2006 by Mr.Krinkle

[Camino LS6]

The sad part of all of this is this thread was started to make us all aware of an article about positive developments for GM. A good positive piece of news about a good product and its affect on the marketplace. Sadly, it became a chorus of not good enough, not accurate, doesn't matter GM still lags behind etc., etc., ad nauseum.

One of you asked what GM makes that would get us into their showrooms.

Silverado - I bought one (my third new one by the way)

GTO - I bought one of these too.

GMT800/900 - Would be my "go to" choice in SUVs hands down.

Corvette - class leading,most bang-for- the- buck sportscar on the planet.

Kappa - undeniable design and sales success

I could keep going but you get the point.

The japanese?

Listen to the crickets chirping: no one's home

[Mr.Krinkle]

some good news and we cant even enjoy it for a moments peace.

Silverado - I bought one (my third new one by the way)

GTO - I bought one of these too.

GMT800/900 - Would be my "go to" choice in SUVs hands down.

Corvette - class leading,most bang-for- the- buck sportscar on the planet.

Kappa - undeniable design and sales success

nothing can even come close to competing with these. but wait long enough.

someone will chime in.

[enzl]

some good news and we cant even enjoy it for a moments peace.

Silverado - I bought one (my third new one by the way)

GTO - I bought one of these too.

GMT800/900 - Would be my "go to" choice in SUVs hands down.

Corvette - class leading,most bang-for- the- buck sportscar on the planet.

Kappa - undeniable design and sales success

nothing can even come close to competing with these.  but wait long enough.

someone will chime in.

Firstly- The Kappas are great. No doubt. A milestone for current GM business practices....however, there's a gigantic 'but'.... The decision to build them at a trickle makes claims of a 'hit' because it's UNDERproduction sold out a hollow warcry. Period. If I make 25% of the previous capacity in a facility, I haven't begun to scratch the surface of what is needed. I was pointing out that GM can't even have a success without a corresponding failure (and they can't afford that...ask the guys out in Okla. that used to make 360 EXT's...).

Second- as to the list of vehicles above...

I conceded the Kappas, the 'vette and the GMT900's already....which, based on a total output of over 75 different vehicles, is a 4% appeal rate, but I digress....

Silverado-dead in its current form, albeit competitive. We haven't seen the new ones yet, so hold the accolades...

GTO-dead in its current form, just as it got good with the delicious 400hp engine-but it still looks like a Cavalier 2dr. from certain angles and it took an act of God (or Lutz), just to get it here in the first place.

So, you added 50% to my totals...that's about 6%. I'll add in the CTS, CTS-V, STS-V and, my personal favorite, the SRX..that brings us up to a generous 10-12% of the entire GM line-up...

You just made my point for me....

Additionally, can you say with a straight face that the 350z,RX8, Miata, IS,G, S2000, Si, GS, FJ, Tacoma, et al...have NO appeal???

If you wouldn't ever consider a Japanese make, then yes. But that doesn't mean, objectively, that these products aren't highly worthy of consideration.

[turbo200]

the man makes a strong case. you just cannot deny that there are many appealing japanese vehicles, but because of your GM diehard mentality, camino, which is okay, you personally cannot look at those. those of us in favor of choice and competition for the sake of better cars like to look at the rest and understand the appeal of everyone.

I agree with your totals enzl, the cars you listed, imo are the best GM offers, but it's a drop in the bucket compared to some of thier really sore cars. The entire Buick lineup of cars, Chevy cars and most trucks, Pontiac [except GTO and G6 GTP]......or basically a whole lot of the lineup. It's not that these cars are completely unappealing, but the competition does them better. If GM were the only arround, people could be plenty happy with them, but the competition is wooing those people away since they do exist.

About Kappa; this is a classic example of GM misreading the market, thier brands, and thier dire need for good product. RWD is very popular these days, and GM underestimated the need for good RWD product, good product that could have Pontiac in much more enviable position today. Instead, product planning gave us a platform that will give a total of 40k cars/yr. That's it! Ridiculous. A Pontiac compact, RWD, sedan and coupe could easily achieve 200k sales if priced and styled right.

We really are not trying to rain on anyone's parade. You guys like to point fingers----the only choice we have is to defend our positions. Would you do the same, especially if you thought your viewpoint was reasonable?

[Camino LS6]

Firstly- The Kappas are great. No doubt. A milestone for current GM business practices....however, there's a gigantic 'but'.... The decision to build them at a trickle makes claims of a 'hit' because it's UNDERproduction sold out a hollow warcry. Period. If I make 25% of the previous capacity in a facility, I haven't begun to scratch the surface of what is needed. I was pointing out that GM can't even have a success without a corresponding failure (and they can't afford that...ask the guys out in Okla. that used to make 360 EXT's...).

Second- as to the list of vehicles above...

I conceded the Kappas, the 'vette and the GMT900's already....which, based on a total output of over 75 different vehicles, is a 4% appeal rate, but I digress....

Silverado-dead in its current form, albeit competitive. We haven't seen the new ones yet, so hold the accolades...

GTO-dead in its current form, just as it got good with the delicious 400hp engine-but it still looks like a Cavalier 2dr. from certain angles and it took an act of God (or Lutz), just to get it here in the first place.

So, you added 50% to my totals...that's about 6%. I'll add in the CTS, CTS-V, STS-V and, my personal favorite, the SRX..that brings us up to a generous 10-12% of the entire GM line-up...

You just made my point for me....

Additionally, can you say with a straight face that the 350z,RX8, Miata, IS,G, S2000, Si, GS, FJ, Tacoma, et al...have NO appeal???

If you wouldn't ever consider a Japanese make, then yes. But that doesn't mean, objectively, that these products aren't highly worthy of consideration.

Last time I checked Silverado and GTO were still available and will be again.

No, none of the Japanese cars you mentioned would meet my minimum criteria. I need a real 3/4 ton truck and Japan doesn't make one. The sports cars don't measure up to my GTO, and the FJ can't touch the Tahoe (I wouldn't buy anyone's compact SUV so that's not exactly fair, I admit). So, no, nothing in that list would work for me at all.

[Camino LS6]

the man makes a strong case. you just cannot deny that there are many appealing japanese vehicles, but because of your GM diehard mentality, camino, which is okay, you personally cannot look at those. those of us in favor of choice and competition for the sake of better cars like to look at the rest and understand the appeal of everyone.

I agree with your totals enzl, the cars you listed, imo are the best GM offers, but it's a drop in the bucket compared to some of thier really sore cars. The entire Buick lineup of cars, Chevy cars and most trucks, Pontiac [except GTO and G6 GTP]......or basically a whole lot of the lineup. It's not that these cars are completely unappealing, but the competition does them better. If GM were the only arround, people could be plenty happy with them, but the competition is wooing those people away since they do exist.

About Kappa; this is a classic example of GM misreading the market, thier brands, and thier dire need for good product. RWD is very popular these days, and GM underestimated the need for good RWD product, good product that could have Pontiac in much more enviable position today. Instead, product planning gave us a platform that will give a total of 40k cars/yr. That's it! Ridiculous. A Pontiac compact, RWD, sedan and coupe could easily achieve 200k sales if priced and styled right.

We really are not trying to rain on anyone's parade. You guys like to point fingers----the only choice we have is to defend our positions. Would you do the same, especially if you thought your viewpoint was reasonable?

Read my above post for a better understanding of my position on Japanese vehicles.

It seems you guys are focused on mid-size FWD sedans- is that a fair statement?

That is not a segment I will ever be interested in and I don't see much major difference between any of the entries in it. They all seem... adequate.

[Mr.Krinkle]

Additionally, can you say with a straight face that the 350z,RX8, Miata, IS,G, S2000, Si, GS, FJ, Tacoma, et al...have NO appeal???

i never said these cars dont have appeal, obviously they do...just not to me.

i never liked the z's. i think of them at the time of the grand national. they kindve share a similar legacy. aside from that, i just dont care for the styling.

rx-8 is too gimmicky, no torque, and just odd looking to me.

miata- not exactly. solstice/sky but being 6'1 i doubt my ass is fitting in any of them.

s2000 see above--besides most reviews say it sucks until its over 6 grand on the tach. not ideal for everyday.

tacoma? fj? no.

the subarus are kinda cool, but again not really my style.

have no interest at all in lexus. nothing.

like i said earlier, whatever floats your boat.

[Camino LS6]

One other factor that fuels my dislike of japanese cars is the fact that they tend to be high-winders making power at the upper end of the RPM range. I much prefer low-end torque.

And then there is styling, here the answer is simple: I don't like any of it. The latest Acuras are as close as it gets to good, and they are not stunning to be sure.

The balance run from bland, to odd, to downright ugly (FJ,Prius)

[balthazar]

enzl= >>"You're right...there always has been better product..."<<

"always" means, by definition, that there was never a time that the given domestic in question was the best. Far from the case. It took mercedes decades of becoming much more Cadillac-esque in order to bring sales up to Cadillac's level (they have never reached the marketshare that Cadillac has obtained, BTW).

>>"The limited edition Kappas are sold out because of that fact....the Wilmington plant will put out less than 40,000 cars in '06....the capacity at that plant was over 200k in its heyday! ---That's BAD planning by GM, not something I'd brag about."<<

You're not really comparing the production levels of a pair of brand new, low-production 2-seat roadsters to an entire range of body styles for multiple brands of family vehicles, are you?

>>"You are asking people to ignore good old fashioned common sense, something most Americans have in abundance..."<<

Actual true common sense would never fault the entire domestic auto industry TODAY for the Vega from 1971, yet we read testimony of that ALL THE TIME. That's exactly like having a bad relationship with a girl from California and immediately swearing off every single girl who lives or ever lived in CA.

That's the level of 'common sense' we're dealing with here.

Sorry, but what's going is much more complicated than that.

[balthazar]

I love GM.

...GM's demise. The same old, same old of rental car interiors, fleet sales propping up entire factories' production and the presumption that 1 out of 2 shoppers will purchase a GM ride

just see that my points have merit and thought behind them and, best intentions...

[evok]

The sad part of all of this is this thread was started to make us all aware of an article about positive developments for GM. A good positive piece of news about a good product and its affect on the marketplace. Sadly, it became a chorus of not good enough, not accurate, doesn't matter GM still lags behind etc., etc., ad nauseum.

One of you asked what GM makes that would get us into their showrooms.

Silverado - I bought one (my third new one by the way)

GTO - I bought one of these too.

GMT800/900 - Would be my "go to" choice in SUVs hands down.

Corvette - class leading,most bang-for- the- buck sportscar on the planet.

Kappa - undeniable design and sales success

I could keep going but you get the point.

The japanese?

Listen to the crickets chirping: no one's home

No this thread was started out based upon false data or analysis by the author of the article. There is no positive piece of news when nothing has changed. This chorus is that people want to believe what they want to agree with even though it is false.

[Mr.Krinkle]

No this thread was started out based upon false data or analysis by the author of the article.  There is no positive piece of news when nothing has changed.  This chorus is that people want to believe what they want to agree with even though it is false.

im not trying to be argumentative...but what was false. or more so how do you know its false?

do you just not agree with it? because they did provide numbers and they were good numbers. the stuff that everyone who claims to have gms best interest at heart would like to hear.

everything else under the sun was brought up here but the facts that the article contained. which was indeed good news.

honestly...things start to look up so it seems to me anyway any thing to bring us back to your reality is thrown into the fire. again, this isnt meant to be argumentative... i just fins it strange the more i think about this.

younger shoppers are gravitating towards pontiac while older shoppers are looking at toyota. it seems pretty cut and dry. and good news, too

as a younger buyer what product from toyota screams out to the younger folk looking to buy a car? any insight would be helpful to me here.

and dont say "scion" because they needed that division solely for that purpose.

strictly toyota, now.

perhaps they will get too big for themselves too one day. maybe they already have and dont even know it.

[Camino LS6]

No this thread was started out based upon false data or analysis by the author of the article.  There is no positive piece of news when nothing has changed.  This chorus is that people want to believe what they want to agree with even though it is false.

So you've said. But honestly, why should I accept your analysis any more than that in the article? I have no reason to accept your assertions over theirs.

I think I'll just be happy that the Kappas are a raging success which is drawing positive attention to GM, the doomsday machine be damned.

[The O.C.]

It is extremly good news for Pontiac and extreme good news for Toyota if you are a GM Enthusiast. Perhaps the "baby boomers" are starting to lose their affect on market conditions and more Gen X'ers such as myself are now purchasing vehicles.

The only thing Toyota has benefited from is the weak offerings from Detroit in the 80's. Other than that, kids from my generation will connect with GM, Ford & Chrysler.

.....maybe in Michigan, Josh.....

[The O.C.]

Perhaps I'm missing something, but the thought that Scion is a failure is laughable...the only 'dissapointment' is that the targeted demographic isn't as large a part of the group that actually buys 'em.

I see Scion as doing in two years what Saturn has really NEVER done.....

[balthazar]

If the article information was inconsistantly presented or misinterpreted, such does not imply that the opposite is then true. Undoubtedly the Solstice (and the discontinuation of the B'ville) is incrementally lowering the ABA of Pontiac buyers.

But as stated above, people want to believe what they want to agree with even though it is false.

[The O.C.]

Finally, I am tired of all the naysaying sucking the fun out of C&G. I thought we were ALL here to enjoy being GM enthusiasts, perhaps I was wrong. So before you accuse me of drinking too much "GM Kool-aide" consider that even I find most of GM's products to be something I would not buy, but the ones I would buy make it worth it. I can find exactly zero products from the asians that will ever tempt me to lay down the cash.

.......Camino, that means "GM Biggest Fans AND Toughest Critics."

It's not "naysaying"....it's "criticism"....most of it "constructive criticism."

That's okay that you have your own level of enthusiasm for GM. That's cool.

People like Evok and I WANT GM to be successful.....but we can't be blindly loyal to the realities of the situation and of the market in general.....and in order FOR GM to be successful, there are certain things they HAVE to change and product development is the BIG ONE.

I, for one, am an overall car enthusiast FIRST....and a GM fan SECOND. Yes, I love GM....but my level of car enthusiasm doesn't stop there....it goes WAY further.

I've said before on here that I paid $62K for a GM car (C6 convertible) and I feel that was a BIG statement from me in my confidence for GM. I'm one of their toughest critics on here (to the derision of many) but when I see GM doing something that I feel is world-class, and a solid choice in the marketplace, I'm not afraid to give GM a significant amount of money for one of their products.

That being said, that's one of the ONLY products in their vast empire that I would consider writing my own check for. CTS is another....and maybe a GMT-900 (if I was ever in the market for a full-size SUV.) Do I LIKE the Lucerne? YES. Do I like the Cobalt SS Supercharged? YES. Would I actually spend my money for one of those over any number of competitiors? Unfortunately no....I can't justify it. Even though I may "like" those cars. There are too many "....buts" associated with them.....

[The O.C.]

One of my ex girlfriends owns a G6 coupe. I'm 22, I own the Solstice. One of my coworkers is 24 and owns a Grand Prix GXP. I've heard several people tell me they want the G6 coupe GTP or the Solstice GXP.

Pontiacs gains are true. I see it everyday.

LORD Josh.....

Okay....I'm gonna and say it again.

You live in MICHIGAN....

Which is about as FAR from reality in the automotive marketplace as you can get.

Don't you see that? Really?

[The O.C.]

and this is why import consumers are so reticent to shop domestic manufacturers. They have all migrated from GM, and upon stopping at Honda/Toyota were shocked, schocked, at the inherent goodness of those automobiles. from engineering detail, driving dynamics, efficiency, reliability, durability, quality......these are all areas GM has lagged the competition in the past 30 years, and are now paying dearly for it. evok put it best in this thread, up a couple posts. import customers are gm customers who were pissed off by gm and will not come back unless something dramatic pulls them in. and the younger generations just react to the environment. they learn imports are the better product, and this is forever cemented in thier mind. Gm has not done much to change that perception.

I was at the grocery store a while back, and was walking up to my C6 when a guy in a brand new (dealer tags still on it) BMW 750Li, younger guy, maybe early 40's, asked me how I liked my Corvette.

Of course I sung its praises. He complimented on it and how nice it looked, and I showed him the interior and the higher quality materials...and the dude was truly impressed. I also talked about how fast it is and how good it handles, yet how truly comfortable it was and how nice the ride quality was...

What did he say? That he's a "Porsche" guy and although the new C6 was "truly a step above" he could never consider buying a "GM product" again because of all the "bad experiences he had in the past."

Could I ever have experienced such a STEREOTYPICAL "imports good, GM bad" conversation with a consumer? YET it happened....I didn't make it up.....and unfortunately THAT'S the real challenge GM has yet to address.

You can argue all day long how that guy is "biased" or driven by "media influence" or you can even call him an "import-loving idiot." BUT the fact of the matter is, he was a younger guy, certainly successful, and it's the BMW dealership that just sold him that $75K-$85K sedan....and you can rest assured (from my conversation with him) as good as the C6 is, it will be the Porsche dealer that will get his sports-car-business....not the GM store.

What do you think he'll buy his kids to drive when they turn 16?

Scary....isn't it....?

[The O.C.]

One other factor that fuels my dislike of japanese cars is the fact that they tend to be high-winders making power at the upper end of the RPM range. I much prefer low-end torque.

Camino.....how many "high-winding" Japanese (or European for that matter) cars have you driven?

I'm guessing none.....based upon your previous comments.

Low end torque if good. However, with today's technology like VVT and lighter-weight components, just about all import multi-cam/multi-valve engine offers low-end performance comparable, if not better in some cases, than many typically low-torque (read pushrod) engines. (eg...compared to most pushrod engines, they also rev much quicker into their, albeit higher, powerbands....compensating some as well.)

The Honda S2000 and Toyota VVT 1.8L engines being my two big exceptions.....

Example.....stoplight drag race with our "high winding" X5 4.4i V8 versus a new Silverado SS "torquer." We stayed neck-and-neck all the way from a stop to about 90mph when I let off (we were at a light entering the 5fwy....) That "torquey" Silverado really seemed to have no low-rpm advantage.

Anyways.....even if you hate them....go test drive some of them sometimes. At least then you'll get more of what we are all harping about on here......go test drive a new Camry with the 3.5L V6, or a BMW 550i with the 4.8L Valvetronic V8, or a VW Jetta or GTi or GLi with the wonderful 2.0T engine, or (gasp) a Honda Civic Si with the 197hp L4.

[evok]

So you've said. But honestly, why should I accept your analysis any more than that in the article?  I have no reason to accept your assertions over theirs.

I think I'll just be happy that the Kappas are a raging success which is drawing positive attention to GM, the doomsday machine be damned.

As I have said I am not reposting the past articles but if you want primary source material type "average age car buyer" in yahoo or google and the data will pop up.

2005

Pontiac - 43

Toyota - 42

2006

Pontiac - 41

Toyota - 45

That is the data from last year and this. Nothing of significance has changed. It only shows that there is a problem with the article. There is only normal year to year variablity.

As for Kappa, kappa is but a passing blip in a much larger problem in GMs portfolio. Once the irrational exhuberance wears off, sales will tank from current levels.

[Camino LS6]

Camino.....how many "high-winding" Japanese (or European for that matter) cars have you driven?

I'm guessing none.....based upon your previous comments.

Low end torque if good.  However, with today's technology like VVT and lighter-weight components, just about all import multi-cam/multi-valve engine offers low-end performance comparable, if not better in some cases, than many typically low-torque (read pushrod) engines.  (eg...compared to most pushrod engines, they also rev much quicker into their, albeit higher, powerbands....compensating some as well.)

The Honda S2000 and Toyota VVT 1.8L engines being my two big exceptions.....

Example.....stoplight drag race with our "high winding" X5 4.4i V8 versus a new Silverado SS "torquer."  We stayed neck-and-neck all the way from a stop to about 90mph when I let off (we were at a light entering the 5fwy....)  That "torquey" Silverado really seemed to have no low-rpm advantage.

Anyways.....even if you hate them....go test drive some of them sometimes.  At least then you'll get more of what we are all harping about on here......go test drive a new Camry with the 3.5L V6, or a BMW 550i with the 4.8L Valvetronic V8, or a VW Jetta or GTi or GLi with the wonderful 2.0T engine, or (gasp) a Honda Civic Si with the 197hp L4.

The answer is many. I never said that I didn't like European cars - I do. I have an extreme affection for pre-Bangle 3 and 5 series BMWs and would happily buy a gently used example. I have spent some "quality time" driving 3s,5s, Jaguars,Porsches,and Ferraris. I also happen to own a Maserati. Not a big Benz fan as they have always felt heavy and plodding to me and the electronic brakes on a SL500 are very disturbing.

Here's what you are missing: I will not consider nor buy a car whose basic configuration is unappealing to me. That means no FWD,no4cyl.,no sedans (short of an ImpalaSS(94-96) or an M5),no hybrids,no v6s(with few exceptions), and no High-winders. Why would I buy something I don't want?

In short, it is not the origin of the cars that is in question here. The asians simply don't make anything I would want. GM does and has. What I am saying about the type of car that will never appeal to me goes for GM products as well. While the Aura seems pretty well done, I'll never buy one or one of its competitors. Ditto the Cobalt,Impala,Lucerne and on down the line. I will not compromise my standards for the purchase of a new car and there is nothing from asia that meets those standards.

[evok]

im not trying to be argumentative...but what was false.  or more so how do you know its false?

The analysis that the Solstice significantly dropped the age of Pontiac from 54 to the low 40's. That is not true. Mathamatically it is not possible and secondly last year Pontiac's ABA was already in the low 40's.

Even the significance of the ABA is overblown for full line OEMs. With baby boomers aging the OEMs have to follow the money and as a result the ABA will be increasing in the near term anyway. So Toyota's ABA will increase naturally.

[Camino LS6]

As I have said I am not reposting the past articles but if you want primary source material type "average age car buyer" in yahoo or google and the data will pop up.

2005

Pontiac - 43

Toyota - 42

2006

Pontiac - 41

Toyota - 45

That is the data from last year and this.  Nothing of significance has changed. It only shows that there is a problem with the article.  There is only normal year to year variablity.

Perhaps, and perhaps it is a nascent trend. we shall see.

As for Kappa, kappa is but a passing blip in a much larger problem in GMs portfolio. Once the irrational exhuberance wears off, sales will tank from current levels.

This is raw prediction, and pessimistic in tone. I simply choose to take a more optomistic view, that it is the beginning of a major resurgence in desireable product from GM.

[evok]

Perhaps, and perhaps it is a nascent trend. we shall see.

Claims and assertions can not be made on 1 data point as the article does.

This is raw prediction, and pessimistic in tone. I simply choose to take a more optomistic view, that it is  the beginning of a major resurgence in desireable product from GM.

Is is predictive and realistic given the historic size and significance of the 2 seat convertible market.

There are no claims made that can not be supported with data.

[Camino LS6]

I think we've reached the level at this point.

An impasse is the result. I only hope we at least understand one another's positions a bit better.

I will gladly answer any questions that "the opposition" may have for me, but I think I have stated my viewpoint well enough that it should be clear.

I really do welcome questions and might want to ask a few of my own if we can all agree to restrict ourselves to the Q&A instead of re-stating our positions.

It could be informative.

[evok]

Read my above post for a better understanding of my position on Japanese vehicles.

It seems you guys are focused on mid-size FWD sedans- is that a fair statement?

That is not a segment I will ever be interested in and I don't see much major difference between any of the entries in it. They all seem...  adequate.

Even though reason tells me to drop it, I will only continue because this point was not made by turbo, enzl or The OC and it applies to this post.

Camino just as you have your loyalty to GM, there is an every growing legion of consumers who are just as loyal to the Japanese brands and frankly any brand.

Just as in politics there is that rabid fringe Left and Right that make up the two main US political parties. But in reality, elections are won by the independents in the middle.

This analogy is important because enthusiast do not make or break companies. It is the automotive equivalents of independent voters that are casting their votes for other companies besides GM. They are not putting up good candidates and they are not getting the sales.

I recently took a ride to Honda because I am in the market for a crossover/SUV and test drove a new Pilot. For the money and the deal, it is a hell of a lot better than products at GM. And I have the GMS discount. I did not intentionally look for the Honda (it was next to where I was so I stopped in out of curiosity.) and it was not even on my list. But the vehicle sold itself and jumped to the top of my list. My actions are the action of an independent voter. You vote for what appeals to you.

I do not want to hear from anyone; wait BUT GM has the lambdas coming out. No, my purchase decision needs to be made today and not tomorrow. That is the reality GM faces with consumers.

Just as the independent voters make or break elections, they do the same thing to auto companies. I care about what I drove but when it comes down to it, the vehicle is just transportation. The SRX is again on my list but is it really worth the extra cash?

[Croc]

I agree, evok. There is a Pilot that is parked outside of my apartment often enough. When I'd go and have a cig break, I'd notice it, and damnit they have little details that are just nice. The red led blinker for the theft alarm is integrated into the popup door unit. Is that an important feature? No, but it shows that Honda sweats the small stuff. Because I noticed that one little detail, I too like the Pilot and want to check it out more thoroughly this summer.

As for the SRX? No, not worth the money. That interior is &#036;h&#33;. If the 2007 refresh is decent, then I may have one in my future. If not, Subaru gets my money for the Tribeca.

Our M-Class is on its last legs. When it goes out this summer, we will not be waiting until February to replace it with a Lambda, either.

[Camino LS6]

Even though reason tells me to drop it, I will only continue because this point was not made by turbo, enzl or The OC and it applies to this post.

Camino just as you have your loyalty to GM, there is an every growing legion of consumers who are just as loyal to the Japanese brands and frankly any brand.

Just as in politics there is that rabid fringe Left and Right that make up the two main US political parties.  But in reality, elections are won by the independents in the middle.

This analogy is important because enthusiast do not make or break companies.  It is the automotive equivalents of independent voters that are casting their votes for other companies besides GM.  They are not putting up good candidates and they are not getting the sales.

I recently took a ride to Honda because I am in the market for a crossover/SUV and test drove a new Pilot.  For the money and the deal, it is a hell of a lot better than products at GM.  And I have the GMS discount.  I did not intentionally look for the Honda (it was next to where I was so I stopped in out of curiosity.) and it was not even on my list.  But the vehicle sold itself and jumped to the top of my list.  My actions are the action of an independent voter.  You vote for what appeals to you.

I do not want to hear from anyone; wait BUT GM has the lambdas coming out.  No, my purchase decision needs to be made today and not tomorrow.  That is the reality GM faces with consumers.

Just as the independent voters make or break elections, they do the same thing to auto companies.  I care about what I drove but when it comes down to it, the vehicle is just transportation.  The SRX is again on my list but is it really worth the extra cash?

Evok, I was only going to do the Q&A thing in this thread from here on in, but I had to respond to this post.

Surprise!

I agree almost entirely with this post.

The disagreements are small and not worth going into.

I too am an independent voter and will not compromise my choices to please a minority or majority interest. My choices are my own.