Solstice Drives Down Average Age of Pontiac Buyers

[Variance]

Fountain of Youth: Solstice Drives Down Average Age of Pontiac Shoppers

Date posted: 04-18-2006

BANDON, Ore. — Pontiac, on the shoulders of its popular Solstice, saw the biggest decline in shopper ages — from 54 in the first quarter of 2005 down to 41 in the first quarter of 2006 — according to a new report by market research firm CNW.

At the other end of the scale from Pontiac, Korean automaker Kia took the lead in snaring older customers. The average age of Kia shoppers in 2006 is 35.5, compared with 30.3 years in 2005. CNW interpreted that as "good news" for Kia, because the brand "wants to move further upscale in both price and content so it needs slightly older buyers who can afford the more expensive vehicles."

The average age of Mini shoppers declined more than 8 percent, from 46.8 in 2005 to 42.9 in 2006. The average age of Mazda shoppers is creeping up, from 39.7 percent in 2005 to 41.3 in 2006.

At the same time, Toyota has seen a dramatic 11-percent increase in the average age of its shoppers, even factoring in its Scion youth brand. The average age of Toyota shoppers was 40.5 in 2005 and is 45 in 2006.

Overall, the age of shoppers is actually older than the average age of buyers, CNW reported. This year, the average age of shoppers is 47, up from 46.5 in 2005, while the average buyer is slightly more than 41 years old, up from 40.9 a year ago.

What this means to you: This report is an important sign of progress for Pontiac, and an important sign of danger for Toyota.

Link: http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=110062

[the_yellow_dart]

...and Pontiac still has an older age than Toyota?

That surprises me.

[Cory Wolfe]

Um.. not currently. 41 versus 45. Read.

[the_yellow_dart]

Um.. not currently. 41 versus 45. Read.

You young whippersnappers and your eyeballs that work...

In my day, we had to walk uphill both ways... ah nevermind.

[Guest Josh]

It is extremly good news for Pontiac and extreme good news for Toyota if you are a GM Enthusiast. Perhaps the "baby boomers" are starting to lose their affect on market conditions and more Gen X'ers such as myself are now purchasing vehicles.

The only thing Toyota has benefited from is the weak offerings from Detroit in the 80's. Other than that, kids from my generation will connect with GM, Ford & Chrysler.

[frogger]

Umm aren't Gen X'ers pretty much in their 30's by now? Born 1965-75.

Edited April 18, 2006 by frogger

[Northstar]

Some good news, hopefully the SKY brings down Saturn's average buyer age.

If Pontiac introduced a Kappa sedan the average buyer age would drop even more dramatically.

[Flybrian]

Toyota themselves admitted their own failure at turning the demographics around with the failure of the Genesis Project cars and the birth of Scion, who still appeals to older people who want a tiny van.

[Croc]

Well, duh...young people want cheap, but they don't want small. They want to take their friends and their cargo to go places and do things. They want fuel economy if they pay for their own gas...basically they want a crossover with good fuel economy, good styling, and decent power. That would be a "young people mobile." Seriously...who buys those tiny tiny cars? Old people and really poor people...used.

[Guest Josh]

I am not old, nor poor, but I am also the exception to the rule. Plus what I've found when I travel, I can fit what I will need on a weekend excursion in the trunk of the Solstice.

Grant it my trips have been with the top up due to weather, but down, I feel my small bag would also fit, my guest would have the same.

This car is by far the best vehicle out on the market today. The looks, the attention, the fun to drive of it, the fuel economy (when I can lay off the gas) is fantastic. It's just overall fun & the younger crowd loves it as well.

[Flybrian]

The middle-aged crowd 35-60 love both our cars.

[balthazar]

Wait. Did the toyota-sucking media not report the average buyer age of the toyota brand by itself??

{re-reads....} It's unclear: is 45 yrs the average of toyota & scion TOGETHER?? If so, what the everlovin' hell is the average buyer age of toyota without scion: 65?? 72???

This could be monsterous....

[Croc]

I am not old, nor poor, but I am also the exception to the rule. Plus what I've found when I travel, I can fit what I will need on a weekend excursion in the trunk of the Solstice.

Grant it my trips have been with the top up due to weather, but down, I feel my small bag would also fit, my guest would have the same.

This car is by far the best vehicle out on the market today. The looks, the attention, the fun to drive of it, the fuel economy (when I can lay off the gas) is fantastic. It's just overall fun & the younger crowd loves it as well.

My comments were in reference to the failure of Scion at luring younger buyers.

[Paolino]

So, if we want to bring Buick's age down, maybe we need a hot little roadster? Oh, yeah, we knew this.

Seriously though, the Solstice is like a God send to Pontiac. They nailed that car down perfectly--it's just purely awesome. The car just looks like SO much fun to drive. And I swear, I'd totally consider getting the GXP. And I really thought I was over my "sports car" phase.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

NIIIICE!!!!!!!

GM, the Solstice should show you just how "DAMAGED" Pontiac is!!!!! Sexy and Alluring product SELLS!!!!! And people REMEMBER what Pontiac was meant to be.

At the same time, Toyota has seen a dramatic 11-percent increase in the average age of its shoppers, even factoring in its Scion youth brand. The average age of Toyota shoppers was 40.5 in 2005 and is 45 in 2006.

Well, well...... What do we have here?!?!?! A crack in the foundation? And one that is not easily fixed!

Looks like Scion FAILED at it's main mission!

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

It is extremly good news for Pontiac and extreme good news for Toyota if you are a GM Enthusiast. Perhaps the "baby boomers" are starting to lose their affect on market conditions and more Gen X'ers such as myself are now purchasing vehicles.

The only thing Toyota has benefited from is the weak offerings from Detroit in the 80's. Other than that, kids from my generation will connect with GM, Ford & Chrysler.

You know... By and large I find this to be the case with EVERYONE I talk to in our age group.

NOT MANY are that biased against Detroit, (WAY different from the boomers, in which it is a virtual SIN to buy domestic) it's just that Detroit needs to step it up a bit and become more competitive and offer more appealing models especially marketed at our group. And this even applies to "Damaged" brands. ALL of my friends (16-25) LOVE the Solstice and Sky as well as the 300C. That right there shows that even "damaged" brands can devlop new ties to relevance. Most of this age group tends to think of Toyota as reliable, but a 'mature' persons car while Scion (The tC at least) seems to be catching on with the more import oriented and Honda kinda has a universal appeal (I would consider Honda more of a threat than Toyota in this group)

The FLIP SIDE to that though is the fact that THERE IS NO LOYALTY in this age group. They buy what they like no matter who makes it. GM could both leverage this or suffer from it.

[Satty]

Well, duh...young people want cheap, but they don't want small.  They want to take their friends and their cargo to go places and do things.  They want fuel economy if they pay for their own gas...basically they want a crossover with good fuel economy, good styling, and decent power.  That would be a "young people mobile."  Seriously...who buys those tiny tiny cars?  Old people and really poor people...used.

You just, for the most part, described the Element, which seems to be selling to both young and old, about a 50/50 split. And not all young people want something like that. Scion would have been more successful if they had the xB, the tC (coupe and vert), something along the lines of the previous RAV4, a true large compact/small midsize sedan and maybe even a true compact pickup. Keep the content high and the prices low and they would appeal to most younger people.

[evok]

There is a problem with this study/article.

Pontiac's average age is already about 45 and has been for some time.

There is faulty math embedded in there data or just bad data.

Based upon the sales of the Solstice and if a fertilized eggs bought Solsti, it would only drop the average a few years. Not what they claimed.

Bad article.

[Croc]

You just, for the most part, described the Element, which seems to be selling to both young and old, about a 50/50 split.  And not all young people want something like that.  Scion would have been more successful if they had the xB, the tC (coupe and vert), something along the lines of the previous RAV4, a true large compact/small midsize sedan and maybe even a true compact pickup.  Keep the content high and the prices low and they would appeal to most younger people.

No, Element is too small. With it, the choice becomes people versus cargo, not people AND cargo. Also, Element has awkward styling. I am thinking of vehicles like the new Caliber, the Torrent/Equinox twins, or hell even an Astro or Safari. Those are great vehicles.

If GM were smart, they'd have updated the Astro and sold it with "surf" and "California" packages and marketed it as a retro-cool youth-mobile.

[Satty]

The Element has more cargo room behind the second row of seats than the Caliber. The Torrent is also comparatively huge, about $3k more expensive in base form than the Element and about $7k more than the Caliber. Insurance on the three is about equal. Of the three, Total cost to own (I know, its Edmunds, but still) the Torrent/Nox are a lot higher than the Element and Caliber.

BTW, the Element would be perfect for me if the gas mileage weren't atrocious.

[Camino LS6]

This is wonderful news, and Solstice deserves the credit along with Lutz for making it happen.

Also great news on Toyota, may it age itself into oblivion.

I knew Scion would backfire.

I'm happy on all counts.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

Scion failed? Well, that's a no brainer. Who wants a mutated Astro or a deformed Matrix for a first or second car? Not me.

And I'm the demographic for Scion.

Nissan better take note, because if they borrow a lot of the main styling from the Urge concept, the age of the average buyer buy will go up for them.

Ugly = Old

Well Crafted = Young

That's how it works, folks.

[regfootball]

It is extremly good news for Pontiac and extreme good news for Toyota if you are a GM Enthusiast. Perhaps the "baby boomers" are starting to lose their affect on market conditions and more Gen X'ers such as myself are now purchasing vehicles.

The only thing Toyota has benefited from is the weak offerings from Detroit in the 80's. Other than that, kids from my generation will connect with GM, Ford & Chrysler.

let's hope. the baby boomers have definitely warped our country in other ways too.

At the same time, Toyota has seen a dramatic 11-percent increase in the average age of its shoppers, even factoring in its Scion youth brand. The average age of Toyota shoppers was 40.5 in 2005 and is 45 in 2006.

this last weekend we visited both parents. my dad is 65 and made a comment about how nice the toyotas are and how much he liked the neighbor's Avalon that shares the big parking garage at the condo. He has a friend there who is like 80+ who bought a new Toyota pickup as well. Of course my dad is warped, he thinks it was two years ago you could buy new LeSabres for 17 grand and new Impalas for 16 grand so now he sees new Lucernes for 25 grand and thinks GM is out to rip everyone off. Apparently he hasn't priced any Toyotas yet.

Then at my father in laws' (he is 80+), he was commenting on how he likes some of the new Toyotas.

yeesh.

My brother in Laws Father who is near 60 just bought an Avalon a few months back.

Maybe Toyota is in line for a harsh reality in about 5-10 years?

Edited April 20, 2006 by regfootball

[regfootball]

The Element has more cargo room behind the second row of seats than the Caliber.  The Torrent is also comparatively huge, about $3k more expensive in base form than the Element and about $7k more than the Caliber.  Insurance on the three is about equal.  Of the three, Total cost to own (I know, its Edmunds, but still) the Torrent/Nox are a lot higher than the Element and Caliber.

BTW, the Element would be perfect for me if the gas mileage weren't atrocious.

I did the whole Element analysis before we got our Aztek.

My well equipped Aztek v6 FWD with 17" wheels and sunroof was far cheaper then a manual transmission Element.

The Aztek has more useful power and actually gets the same or better real world mileage, if not better. (20 in town/25 on the road)

The Aztek is larger and built sturdier. 4 real doors, seating for 5. The seats can come out of the aztek as opposed to being leaned up against the side windows.

The aztek can haul plywood easily in the cargo bay. try that with your element.

my pontiac dealer was friendly. honda dealers are asses.

40,000 miles and one tiny defect (wheel bearing, likely due to abuse). Been wholy reliable so far. Just like a Honda.

As for looks, each can be their own judge but I actually think my red Aztek with 17's is far nicer to look at than a grey bumpered Element.

Insurance is cheap on the Aztek too.

Pontiac WAS on to something but the styling suggested they were ON something instead. Had they got the styling right, they may have connected with more younger buyers.

The element is ok, but not worth what you pay vs. what you get/can get elsewhere. A new baseline FJ Cruiser CREAMS the Element, IMHO.

Edited April 20, 2006 by regfootball

[Dsuupr]

The G6 must also be making a big difference for Pontiac, as they couldn't sell enough Solstices to make that big of an impact.

[evok]

This is wonderful news, and Solstice deserves the credit along with Lutz for making it happen.

Also great news on Toyota, may it age itself into oblivion.

I knew Scion would backfire.

I'm happy on all counts.  

The article is in error with regard to Pontiac. See my post on page one of this thread.

The US demographics show the average age of the US population to be 35. The average car buyer is app. 45. When a manufacturer becomes more main stream and covers a wider market, their average age will converge on age 45.

Edited April 20, 2006 by evok

[Camino LS6]

The article is in error with regard to Pontiac.  See my post on page one of this thread.

The US demographics show the average age of the US population to be 35.  The average car buyer is app. 45.  When a manufacturer becomes more main stream and covers a wider market, their average age will converge on age 45.

Read your post, but unless you can show me current numbers, I accept the article at face value.

[bowtie_dude]

Oh Solstice...if you were mine...*sigh*

[evok]

Read your post, but unless you can show me current numbers, I accept the article at face value.

That is your problem.

I am sitting on the numbers right in front of me.

I have posted the information a number of times on this board with some links to back it up already, they are burried on CG somewhere.

Also it is simple math that a limited volume product like the Solstice as is claimed in the article can have on increasing or reducing the sales weighted average age of a fleet.

[frogger]

There is a problem with this study/article.

Pontiac's average age is already about 45 and has been for some time.

There is faulty math embedded in there data or just bad data.

Based upon the sales of the Solstice and if a fertilized eggs bought Solsti, it would only drop the average a few years.  Not what they claimed.

Bad article.

I would guess its only based on this year's Pontiac sales and so much of the other Pontiacs can only sell to fleets, the Solstice is bound to have a suprisingly large effect on the average.

[Camino LS6]

That is your problem.

I am sitting on the numbers right in front of me. 

I have posted the information a number of times on this board with some links to back it up already, they are burried on CG somewhere. 

Also it is simple math that a limited volume product like the Solstice as is claimed in the article can have on increasing or reducing the sales weighted average age of a fleet.

Obviously, the numbers in the article are due to more than simply Solstice sales. If you read it carefully, a one to one relationship is not claimed.

How old are your numbers?

What is the source?

Can you post the one's that apply in this case? (Pontiac and Toyota median age for the for the two short timeframes compared, 2005 vs. 2006)

The trend is what is important here, and if it is as indicated by the article, it is the wonderful news I described. Hell, even seeing this headline is a plus in the current environment.

[enzl]

Perhaps I'm missing something, but the thought that Scion is a failure is laughable...the only 'dissapointment' is that the targeted demographic isn't as large a part of the group that actually buys 'em.

I'm not sure that young people buy new cars at all, nevermind Scions or Elements or whatever other 'youth' oriented products are developed. I think that 'hip' youth know they can get a 3 year old 3-series for the price of an Accord...and I know what I'd rather drive.

The bottom line is that, whether old farts or infants, Scion has been a resounding success sales-wise (without an SUV or crossover in the lineup)...who cares who buys them? Most manufacturers would kill for that kind of failure.

We should worry more that the Kappas are going to be restricted by production volume....or that the HHR was 4 years late, or the fact that a rebadged Cobalt was the best GM could do for an entry level Pontiac (after stating they wouldn't do a rebadge - see Torrent for further offense.)

The average age of buyers is a misleading statistic, as the population in general is getting older, on average...as is the age of active drivers and the lions share of wealth is concentrated in the older gens as well...

[Camino LS6]

I think that the pertinent issue is that the Domestics lost a significant portion of one generation to the asians and the same may happen to Japan Inc. with the next. Good and wonderful if it actually happens, even to a lesser degree. There are cracks in the foundation and I hope the walls come down. Car haters made Toyota and Honda what they are, hopefully car lovers will take the domestics back from the brink.

[evok]

Obviously, the numbers in the article are due to more than simply Solstice sales. If you read it carefully, a one to one relationship is not claimed.

How old are your numbers?

What is the source?

Can you post the one's that apply in this case? (Pontiac and Toyota median age for the for the two short timeframes compared, 2005 vs. 2006)

The trend is what is important here, and if it is as indicated by the article, it is the wonderful news I described. Hell, even seeing this headline is a plus in the current environment.

First off let us use logic. A brand does not jump from the mid to low 40's over a 5 year period (this is called a trend) to the mid 50s in a single year as reported by reputable market research firms. It does not happen. There either is bad analysis of the data or in the data collection process or the author of the article misunderstood the data.

Trend, there is no trend other than the one I pointed out. If you know anything about data analysis, a blip or a single data point is not a trend taking the Edmunds number at face value. Particularly when the data show that the historical average age for Pontiac is in the low 40s.

The article has problems as I have pointed out. If you want verification, do your own research and anaylsis instead of relying on 1 data point that is being shown to be in question. I have done mine and have verified it with source material in the past on CG. This discussion is not new.

2005

Pontiac - 43

Toyota - 42

2006

Pontiac - 41

Toyota - 45

This data shows or proves nothing other than that the average age of Pontiac and Toyota buyers is about the average age of the general vehicle buying public.

There is an irony in all of this which you will need to figure out for yourself.

As for your headline point - no one really cars and it does not even matter.

Edited April 20, 2006 by evok

[enzl]

I think that the pertinent issue is that the Domestics lost a significant portion of one generation to the asians and the same may happen to Japan Inc. with the next. Good and wonderful if it actually happens, even to a lesser degree. There are cracks in the foundation and I hope the walls come down. Car haters made Toyota and Honda what they are, hopefully car lovers will take the domestics back from the brink.

The problem with that 'hope' is that most car buyers want an appliance. Us enthusiasts exist on the fringe of the car buying public. Yes, we influence a few friends, some family purchases and, perhaps, set a few trends...the big problem for the big 2.5 is that the default choice isn't a US brand anymore. Ex. Don't know what to buy? March on down to your Nissan/Toyota/Honda place, they've got an SUV/Sedan/minivan you'll be satisfied with...just like their microwave or dishwasher- it'll run as intended. Why take a chance?

To say that demographics have played a role in the US co.'s situation is fine...but it's only a partial component, rather than full explanation. Part of the issue is that certain age groups (45-65) were car buyers when the Big 3 were really putting out their worst POS's...Unfortunately, that means that there is a big hurdle to overcome to get them to consider a US product. This is only a component of the issue, however,...

Here's the big one, IMO...what compelling USP drives consumers into a GM midsizer/compact/SUV/minivan?--there is none--and that's your biggest problem, because that cuts across all demographics and creates a situation where GM's best selling mid-size car (Impala) is a rental queen, rather than an aspirational product.

Create great product and it resolves all of the above (see DCX LX). Create average and bland facsimilies of Japanese product, see them at Hertz. Case closed. (Here's a surprise---young & old people like cool cars ---can't name one GM volume product that qualifies for that adjective---that's sad.)

[evok]

Car haters made Toyota and Honda what they are, hopefully car lovers will take the domestics back from the brink.

That really is one of the most ludicious thing I have heard. No, GM, Ford and Chrysler Corp., not producing product that people have wanted made Toyota and Honda what they are.

Fuel efficient cars in the 70's

Reliable cars in the 80's

The #1,2, and/or #3 sales title in the 90 on forward.

And a loyal, happy, satisfied customer base today.

GM, Ford and Chrysler Group have made their own bed and now they sleep in it. They actually deserve what they continue to receive because they lost the good will of the general public because of their product over the decades.

That is fact.

No, sorry it is 30 years of $hit, f'ing product overall, compared to the competition that has soured the taste of GM, Ford and Chrysler and is gradually making these companies irrelvant.

Edited April 20, 2006 by evok

[turbo200]

boom, fantastic!

[evok]

boom, fantastic!

Yea, placing blame on everything but the root cause is a pet peeve.

Blame marketing!

Blame the media!

Blame the mindless public!

Blame the UAW!

Blame the President!

Blame the Japanese Government!

Blame everyone but ...

No root blame is the Big 3/2.5 management over the years for the product that turned people off and continues to fail to attract.

[frogger]

LOL if car haters made the Accord and Civic way better than cars like the Cutlass Supreme and Chevy Cavalier for 15 years.

Honda had nothing to do with it.

Edited April 20, 2006 by frogger

[Camino LS6]

You guys are out of control. The folks that bought all those Hondas and Toyotas look at a car as an appliance, a necessary evil. Thus, I called them car haters. This used to be a nation of car lovers and I have high hopes that it will be again. I don't give a rat's ass if Toyota becomes the largest automobile manufacturer, as long as GM becomes profitable and is creating cars with real design and performance. The lemmings can have their Japanese appliances, as long as I can buy my real cars.

Frankly Evok, your constant harping about the information you have at your fingertips and unwillingness to post it without some huge theatrical display is getting old. You condescend and insult rather than simply posting the "correct" information along with your comments. It is anti-social and antagonistic and I wish you'd cut it out. I won't be spoken to or of as someone with a somehow substandard mind simply by virtue of the fact that I'm not a professional analyst.

No matter how valid your points and facts may be, the rude fashion in which you present them is offensive and unnecessary. You could turn a baby shower into a fistfight with your presentation.

Demographics most certainly will play a pivotal role as the baby-boomers age and market share will shift accordingly. The perception that Japanese cars are vastly superior holds little truth these days and will fade with time. Provided the domestics step-up to the plate,of course. Market analysis is by definition a study of what has already happened and an educated guess at what will happen. It is not a crystal ball nor infallible.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm here because this is a GM oriented site. I support GM, I buy GM, I enjoy GM and I'm sick of being belittled for expressing my thoughts in that reguard. There is nothing, repeat, nothing built by any asian manufacturer that appeals or ever has appealed to me. So, the constant trumpeting of this myth that the asians have a lock on car design is most tiresome.

They build a fine toaster, but if I want a car I look elsewhere.

I'm sick of sedans

I'm sick of FWD

I'm sick of bland styling

I'm sick of 4cyl cars

I need a real truck

I love RWD

I love coupes

I love V8s

So I have no reason to look at anything from Japan or Korea.

Finally, I am tired of all the naysaying sucking the fun out of C&G. I thought we were ALL here to enjoy being GM enthusiasts, perhaps I was wrong. So before you accuse me of drinking too much "GM Kool-aide" consider that even I find most of GM's products to be something I would not buy, but the ones I would buy make it worth it. I can find exactly zero products from the asians that will ever tempt me to lay down the cash.

[evok]

Frankly Evok, your constant harping about the information you have at your fingertips and unwillingness to post it without some huge theatrical display is getting old. You condescend and insult rather than simply posting the "correct" information along with your comments. It is anti-social and antagonistic and I wish you'd cut it out. I won't be spoken to or of as someone with a somehow substandard mind simply by virtue of the fact that I'm not a professional analyst.

No matter how valid your points and facts may be, the rude fashion in which you present them is offensive and unnecessary. You could turn a baby shower into a fistfight with your presentation.

I posted the data. look above. How many god damn times do I have to repeat myself. I have posted the links countless times over the years and just recently. If you are too lazy to look it up, screw you. Why the hell do I have to do the work. Look it up on the net. Rude. That is becaase you make points without backing your statements up. It gets old. Why should I be otherwise when everyone has access to the internet.

Use it, you will be surprised what is out there. Do not be so lazy. It gets old.

You have fingers to type, do it in google!

I have shared plenty of info and source material including links over the years inproving the discussion around here. Take some time out and do the same. Things need to be a two way street.

It gets old because it takes time and effort on my part to compile info and you can to.

Edited April 21, 2006 by evok

[balthazar]

The real issue with the Average Buyer Age is that numerous sources compile numbers thru different methods and of different samplings. I have seen marketedly different numbers for the same marque within the same year. There is no 'correct' number because each & every published ABA is such a limited sampling it's statistically invalid.

The Pontiac number very well may be a simple ABA of each nameplate averaged together as opposed to a sales-weighed average. That said, I agree: a change of more than even 2 years in ABA using the same methods of finding those numbers year-to-year, is highly unlikely. Cadillac's dropped 4 or 5 years, but it was over a 3 or 4 year time span.

Now... I agree also with Camino- if verifyable methods of compilation are given from the same source, stock can be taken in the trend one way or another.

[turbo200]

You guys are out of control. The folks that bought all those Hondas and Toyotas look at a car as an appliance, a necessary evil. Thus, I called them car haters. This used to be a nation of car lovers and I have high hopes that it will be again. I don't give a rat's ass if Toyota becomes the largest automobile manufacturer, as long as GM becomes profitable and is creating cars with real design and performance. The lemmings can have their Japanese appliances, as long as I can buy my real cars.

Frankly Evok, your constant harping about the information you have at your fingertips and unwillingness to post it without some huge theatrical display is getting old. You condescend and insult rather than simply posting the "correct" information along with your comments. It is anti-social and antagonistic and I wish you'd cut it out. I won't be spoken to or of as someone with a somehow substandard mind simply by virtue of the fact that I'm not a professional analyst.

No matter how valid your points and facts may be, the rude fashion in which you present them is offensive and unnecessary. You could turn a baby shower into a fistfight with your presentation.

Demographics most certainly will play a pivotal role as the baby-boomers age and market share will shift accordingly. The perception that Japanese cars are vastly superior holds little truth these days and will fade with time. Provided the domestics step-up to the plate,of course. Market analysis is by definition a study of what has already happened and an educated guess at what will happen. It is not a crystal ball nor infallible.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm here because this is a GM oriented site. I support GM, I buy GM, I enjoy GM and I'm sick of being belittled for expressing my thoughts in that reguard. There is nothing, repeat, nothing built by any asian manufacturer that appeals or ever has appealed to me. So, the constant trumpeting of this myth that the asians have a lock on car design is most tiresome.

They build a fine toaster, but if I want a car I look elsewhere.

I'm sick of sedans

I'm sick of FWD

I'm sick of bland styling

I'm sick of 4cyl cars

I need a real truck

I love RWD

I love coupes

I love V8s

So I have no reason to look at anything from Japan or Korea.

Finally, I am tired of all the naysaying sucking the fun out of C&G. I thought we were ALL here to enjoy being GM enthusiasts, perhaps I was wrong. So before you accuse me of drinking too much "GM Kool-aide" consider that even I find most of GM's products to be something I would not buy, but the ones I would buy make it worth it. I can find exactly zero products from the asians that will ever tempt me to lay down the cash.

I don't know where even to begin with this post, so I won't. I will defend myself by saying first of all you are being too sensitive, second, I am not the one making the news, GM's poor performance is, if you're tired of it, blame it on them, not me for pointing out how poor it is. Third, you are putting words in our mouths. Reread our posts and read what we are actually saying. I agree that a lot of Japanese cars have trouble capturing the design essense that moves people------HOWEVER, big HOWEVER, they are catching up in this regard, and I am afraid they are only getting better, and this is just one more blow to GM. GM's cool ass looking cars couldn't get here quickly enough. you are also putting words in our mouths in other ways---your interpretation of our opinions is off base.

[Guest Josh]

Evok, I'll say this about your '05 to '06 #'s.

Pontiac did not have as many exciting vehicles out in '05 that were counted. They still had left over Grand Ams and a large selection of G6 sedans. Also, naturally the Solstice.

Now, the age has dropped and Toyotas has gone up. Lets face it. Pontiac has the G6 coupe, the Solstice as well as the Grand Prix GXP, all of which appeal to younger ages.

One of my ex girlfriends owns a G6 coupe. I'm 22, I own the Solstice. One of my coworkers is 24 and owns a Grand Prix GXP. I've heard several people tell me they want the G6 coupe GTP or the Solstice GXP.

The #'s are only skewed based on what you want to believe.

Toyotas are boring cars. We've all said they are boring cars, and now the boring older people are starting to see that.

Pontiacs gains are true. I see it everyday.

[Camino LS6]

OK, I'm not going to address the 87 points of contention here. Let me just say this, I'm not "sensitive", I'm pissed. Why? Because every bit of positive news about GM gets greeted by someone crapping all over it the moment it is posted.

I'll just leave it there.

[turbo200]

We all love GM. This is the rough spot. As news starts to improve and newer product starts hitting the mark more often you will see more good things to praise the company you love. Until then, we are all realists, and if you're in it for the long haul you've seen this coming and have to deal with it. If you are tired of me, hit ignore my friend. This is the rough spot, and it will last for some time, but it looks like we are seeing the beginning of the real product revolution. This is a most important time to GM, so every move will be scrutinized.

[Ravenfreak13]

Nice to hear....my dad is a baby boomer and he drives a plymouth...and before that he had an 88 regal....he aint no asian brainwashed aged person. He HAS considered the Hyundai Tuscon and like the accord...but has yet to buy one.

[balthazar]

What in this thread could possibly remind me of the parent who proclaims his/her love for their child meanwhile beating them violently with a leather strap?

[turbo200]

What in this thread could possibly remind me of the parent who proclaims his/her love for their child meanwhile beating them violently with a leather strap?

hmmmm.....i don't see it?

[balthazar]

Neither does that parent.