Industry News: Senate Passes Mandatory Black Boxes In Vehicles By 2015, House Expected To Follow

[riviera74]

What makes you think that the House will pass that bill? Moreover, what are you going to do about that bill in the House before it is passed?

[Camino LS6]

What makes you think that the House will pass that bill? Moreover, what are you going to do about that bill in the House before it is passed?

1) because it is bundled with a highway funding bill that the house will feel it has to pass.

2) Bitch at my reps about it.

3) (or 2A) Gripe about it publicly on the net

[G. David Felt]

This is big enough that the news should be coveing this, your house and senate represenatives should be getting Mail about how this is NOT GOOD for America.

[Justin Bimmer]

Many cars built by the following companies HAVE black boxes in them already!

GM, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota and Honda

Get over it!

There is a reason why vehicle fatalities and injuries are going down.

The bill is actually good for privacy in a few ways. In the past, there were questions about whether the data belonged to the manufacturer or the owner. This would establish that the data in the recorder belongs to the owner (or lessee) of a vehicle, meaning that interested parties such as insurance companies, dealerships, or advertisers won’t be able to collect info from your black box without your permission. The only exceptions would be when a court grants access to law enforcement, when an emergency medical team needs the info, or in the event of a National Transportation Safety Board investigation (I’m sure the gov had the Toyota accelerator investigation in mind here). Two wins for privacy here: insurance companies aren’t granted access to the valuable boxes and the bill says police have to get a court order to peek at the data under your hood.

From Forbes:

[Z-06]

Prove that blackboxes inclusion is the direct reason why those rates are gone down.

Having them in car is one thing and making them legally accessible for easy unprecedented usage is another thing.

[Camino LS6]

Forbes is nuts, there is NO victory for privacy!

Court orders are a mere formality, rest assured that your insurance company and the police will access your data as a matter of course whenever there is an accident or a suspicion of a violation.

To believe otherwise is to kid yourself.

The other unpleasant aspect of this is that this legislation makes the boxes mandatory, which is a whole new kettle of fish vs. having some cars so equipped.

Edited May 16, 2012 by Camino LS6

[balthazar]

I see NO REASON that granting access to privately-owned info (in the BB), should not be accompanied by charges & fees to those who want it, just like every company out there charges the private individual for any type of service.

"'We' have received your request for access to 'our' BB's data collection.

One-time access fee is $1000, payable in full before data dispersal. 'We' accept PayPal."

Someone have an idea as to how Emergency services would find anything a BB collects to be pertinent to medical assistance?

Edited May 16, 2012 by balthazar

[fullmoon97]

im sorry... but you all are crazy... it is harmless... take off the shiny hats.

[Camino LS6]

Like lambs to the slaughter...

[Delta Force79]

For those in support of this, where do we draw the line? black boxes in our homes next? how about wire taps on all our phones? If i wanted to be under surveillance I would have made it a point to become a criminal, at least then it would be justified. As it stands, I've never been arrested nor have I committed any serious crimes aside from speeding and stealing some candy and maybe 1 or 2 matchbox cars when I was a kid. Getting back to the topic, at the very least the data should only be accessible with consent of the vehicle owner only. In the case of a death due to accident or whatever the case may be, then the next of kin should be the one to grant access to whatever data may be on the box.

[Z-06]

For those in support of this, where do we draw the line? black boxes in our homes next? how about wire taps on all our phones?

But they have been already doing it. It is paranoia to be against it, it is harmless, Get over it and take off those shiny hats.

[Camino LS6]

What a bunch of sheep we have become.

[Drew Dowdell]

For those in support of this, where do we draw the line? black boxes in our homes next? how about wire taps on all our phones? If i wanted to be under surveillance I would have made it a point to become a criminal, at least then it would be justified. As it stands, I've never been arrested nor have I committed any serious crimes aside from speeding and stealing some candy and maybe 1 or 2 matchbox cars when I was a kid. Getting back to the topic, at the very least the data should only be accessible with consent of the vehicle owner only. In the case of a death due to accident or whatever the case may be, then the next of kin should be the one to grant access to whatever data may be on the box.

It's a bit late to draw the line. Modern cars already have black boxes.

[Justin Bimmer]

Guess what guys! Law enforcement can get a court order on anything in your life. It is called a search warrant/ body warrant/ arrest warrant etc. They will have to show the same probable cause just as they would for any other court order to obtain this information.

Plus, the companies I listed earlier that ALREADY have them in their cars makes up like 70% of the car market. I don't see any government UFOs floating around sucking up data from theses cars already.

Edit:

Yes, I can see ALL the data from 7 out of every 10 cars sold.

[loki]

JB... but with warrant laws, they can be changed.... just look at the fiasco under the patriot act. once the enforcement becomes the judge, it's very, very hard to get the law changed back and punish the ones that overstepped their rightful bounds, not the lawful bounds. right?

[fullmoon97]

what you guys don't understand is a warrant would be needed anyway to view it. they cant just say oh give me your black box. because the car is still under private ownership as is the black box. you aren't under surveillance the government isn't going to probe you. the aliens aren't going to take you to their leader. but the black box could possibly save your life. and like JB said they are already in a lot of cars. this law is making them mandatory in new cars. it says nothing yet on law enforcement. because they know it will be privately owned and subject to the same laws and privately owned items. warrants will be needed. since cars have nothing to do with terrorism i highly doubt the US government would care much anyway. which is why the local authorities will still need warrants. they still need warrants, THEY STILL NEED WARRANTS. there hopefully that made it through some of the thicker skulls

Edited May 17, 2012 by fullmoon97

[Camino LS6]

What part of mandatory don't you understand?

And can you not see the potential for abuse here?

This is not something we want institutionalized.

And please explain (if you can) how exactly this black box is ever going to save a life.

It isn't about safety, it's about money, and lawyers, and insurance companies.

There is nothing but an added expense and another invasion of privacy for the consumer in this.

I'm stunned that any of you would defend this.

[balthazar]

And please explain (if you can) how exactly this black box is ever going to save a life.

^ This idea is exactly part of the 'sheep mindset', IE:

{monotone drone] Big Gov't is a force for good, we love us some more Big Gov't [/montone drone}

Edited May 17, 2012 by balthazar

[fullmoon97]

ok let me spell it out for you here. the reason why the patriot act was a thing was because phone lines are a public thing. not private. same with email and cellphones. all of those are public. the car is a privately owned machine. as is your house. police need warrants to search your house BECAUSE it is privately owned. this black box is PART of the PRIVATELY OWNED car. which if we remember what i said before police need warrants to search. as does FBI. idk what goes on with the NSA and CIA. now let me spell out this next part for you as well. wouldn't having all of the crash data from the black box help car makers make cars safer? maybe something failed in the car. numbers wouldn't add up. you put 100% brake force on the peddle but the car only puts out 60% something is wrong there. this is not an invasion of privacy because the only time this will be looked at is when it needs to be. if you have done nothing wrong then its just a hunk of metal and silicon in your car. but if something goes down and your car does not have this box. but the other guy does. maybe it can show that it was him at fault and not you. maybe he applied no pressure to the brakes. well guess what you dont have to pay anything. seriously. im only defending it because its not wrong. we are not sheep being lead to the slaughter because there is nothing to slaughter us. just a little 5x5 hunk of metal and silicon.....

[fullmoon97]

Camino LS6, on , said:

And please explain (if you can) how exactly this black box is ever going to save a life.

^ This idea is exactly part of the 'sheep mindset', IE:

{monotone drone] Big Gov't is a force for good, we love us some more Big Gov't [/montone drone}

no.... i am a constitutional conservative. i HATE big government. you on the other hand sound like someone from Coast to Coast AM screaming about black helicopters and UFOs. cars are just a thing... the only reason the government pays any attention to them is because of the oil they consume. if cars didn't run on oil then it would mean as much to the government as a big wheel a toddler plays with. like i said before if this was paired with some sort of green driving bill. i would be against it. but this thing will only record what happens mechanically to the car. and used when needed. seriously guys its ok...

[Camino LS6]

You need to think about the implications of this a bit more, it's leverage for lawyers and insurance companies.

It benefits those two groups, not the rest of us. It's just another step along the way to the time when we are forced into driverless cars. And one more way in which we are monitored and channeled.

Just wait until a sharp lawyer starts carping about a wide open throttle position just before an accident you were involved in - never mind that you were trying to avoid the wreck by stabbing the gas, you will be painted as the guilty party.

And once this becomes commonplace, the threshold will lower, cops will use it more often, insurance companies will demand it in every case, the safety nazis will use it to add even more requirements to every car...

It's a bad beginning that will only worsen.

[fullmoon97]

wow you really are paranoid. this will be used OBVIOUSLY along with other things. if your rear 1/4 pannel is smashed and it shows full throttle. then lets see maybe he was trying to get out of the way. im getting tired of this. sure its a tool of the insurance companies. but not to make more money its so they dont have to pay more. but guess what if they dont have to pay more. GUESS WHO IS DOING THEIR JOB! the less they pay the more people are alive. im seeing the big picture here. you are seeing pictures that aren't there..

[SAmadei]

ok let me spell it out for you here. the reason why the patriot act was a thing was because phone lines are a public thing. not private. same with email and cellphones. all of those are public. the car is a privately owned machine. as is your house. police need warrants to search your house BECAUSE it is privately owned. this black box is PART of the PRIVATELY OWNED car. which if we remember what i said before police need warrants to search.

For starters, just because the phone lines are a publicly shared utility, your phone conversations are not public. Talking on the phone has a certain expectation of privacy and that's why wiretaps required warrants FIRST. Our founding fathers would have beat you senseless with a telephone handset had they heard your reasoning.

Second, the police can search your car without a warrant if its operated on public roads if they have probable cause... so perhaps they need a search warrant to download your black box if the car is on private property, but how long before the probable cause clause is used to download black box data on the spot. In any case, the police can impound your car at virtually any time and get a search warrant at their leisure.

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." ...Good 'old Ben Franklin put it best 235 years ago.

[Camino LS6]

I'm not paranoid, I've just seen this slippery slope before. Trusting big brother is a fool's errand.

This is special interest legislation at our expense and nothing more.

Give it ten years, and you'll see where this leads.

[SAmadei]

the only reason the government pays any attention to them is because of the oil they consume. if cars didn't run on oil then it would mean as much to the government as a big wheel a toddler plays with.

Are you serious? If that is the case, why is the Nissan Leaf not exempt?

Oh, BTW, those toddler toys are highly regulated nowadays.

[balthazar]

Of course, when insurance Cos 'don't pay more', they 'make more', but point taken.

But whether they pay or not does not prevent accidents.

Insurance companies should NOT have any access to these recorders.

Anyone have a source as to what vehicles have had these since when?

[Camino LS6]

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." ...Good 'old Ben Franklin put it best 235 years ago.

It amazes me just how willing folks are these days to make this most dangerous bargain.

[SAmadei]

Of course, when insurance Cos 'don't pay more', they 'make more', but point taken.

But whether they pay or not does not prevent accidents.

Insurance companies should NOT have any access to these recorders.

Anyone have a source as to what vehicles have had these since when?

I have a feeling that eventually insurance companies will pull something like they do with home insurance... so that if you don't have updated electrical, they won't insure your house. At some point, this logic applied to "features" like ABS, TC, black boxes, etc. will make it difficult to insure a car with standard insurance... relegating older cars to limited mileage collector insurance.

[Robert Hall]

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." ...Good 'old Ben Franklin put it best 235 years ago.

It amazes me just how willing folks are these days to make this most dangerous bargain.

Most people couldn't care less...as long as they can keep w/ the latest news on the Kardashians, play Farmville, get their fast food, they are happy...

[SAmadei]

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." ...Good 'old Ben Franklin put it best 235 years ago.

It amazes me just how willing folks are these days to make this most dangerous bargain.

Most people couldn't care less...as long as they can keep w/ the latest news on the Kardashians, play Farmville, get their fast food, they are happy...

This is why people need to understand exactly how much of their income is going to feed the beast. Get them to understand that they can have 25~50% nicer stuff, more Kardashians, better Farmville, faster fast food by shrinking government... and then the resized government simply cannot afford to micromanage us anymore.

[Camino LS6]

This one instance of the erosion of freedom may seem insignificant to some, but it is part of a larger pattern in so many areas.

Death by a thousand cuts is still death.

And remember, this legislation is brought to you buy the same congress that gave us indefinite detention without trial for citizens even suspected of having ties to terrorism.

There is reason to be wary.

Edited May 18, 2012 by Camino LS6

[fullmoon97]

the government doesn't take green cars seriously. you see any green limos? i think not. maybe hybrids but those run on gas as well. again. i am tired of this you crazy people are giving me heartburn. if this really does become an invasion of privacy. (again idk how a cop catching you speeding and getting your black box to prove it is an invasion of privacy.) you really think people will stay quiet? NO! if the tea party, occupy movement, and oh idk the hundreds of protests going on around the world, should tell us anything its that people dont stay quiet when they feel threatened. FACE IT! the house wont see this as a big deal and they will pass it. it will be a thing. learn your rights. know them well. if you know your rights they cant touch you. you people are crazy...

[balthazar]

Of course, when insurance Cos 'don't pay more', they 'make more', but point taken.

But whether they pay or not does not prevent accidents.

Insurance companies should NOT have any access to these recorders.

Anyone have a source as to what vehicles have had these since when?

I have a feeling that eventually insurance companies will pull something like they do with home insurance... so that if you don't have updated electrical, they won't insure your house. At some point, this logic applied to "features" like ABS, TC, black boxes, etc. will make it difficult to insure a car with standard insurance... relegating older cars to limited mileage collector insurance.

Is that somehow NOT a chipping away of personal freedom??

[Camino LS6]

the government doesn't take green cars seriously. you see any green limos? i think not. maybe hybrids but those run on gas as well. again. i am tired of this you crazy people are giving me heartburn. if this really does become an invasion of privacy. (again idk how a cop catching you speeding and getting your black box to prove it is an invasion of privacy.) you really think people will stay quiet? NO! if the tea party, occupy movement, and oh idk the hundreds of protests going on around the world, should tell us anything its that people dont stay quiet when they feel threatened. FACE IT! the house wont see this as a big deal and they will pass it. it will be a thing. learn your rights. know them well. if you know your rights they cant touch you. you people are crazy...

If you feel secure in your rights, well good for you.

However, those rights have been violated many, many times in our history. The recent past shows multiple, glaring, examples of purely unconstitutional legislation being codified into law.

It's the way of aging republics - history shows this clearly, and we are not immune.

[Robert Hall]

Of course, when insurance Cos 'don't pay more', they 'make more', but point taken.

But whether they pay or not does not prevent accidents.

Insurance companies should NOT have any access to these recorders.

Anyone have a source as to what vehicles have had these since when?

I have a feeling that eventually insurance companies will pull something like they do with home insurance... so that if you don't have updated electrical, they won't insure your house. At some point, this logic applied to "features" like ABS, TC, black boxes, etc. will make it difficult to insure a car with standard insurance... relegating older cars to limited mileage collector insurance.

Is that somehow NOT a chipping away of personal freedom??

Personal freedom doesn't count for much in a corporatocracy as we have today...we the people are the product as much as the products companies make...government for the companies, not the people.

[Camino LS6]

One thing I do find peculiar is the tendency of those who accept things like this to insist that those of us who do not just "accept it" , or "face it", because "that's just the way it is".

And they even seem angry about it.

I find that puzzling in a nation spawned from thinking like this:

"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" - Patrick Henry

[Robert Hall]

the government doesn't take green cars seriously. you see any green limos? i think not. maybe hybrids but those run on gas as well. again. i am tired of this you crazy people are giving me heartburn. if this really does become an invasion of privacy. (again idk how a cop catching you speeding and getting your black box to prove it is an invasion of privacy.) you really think people will stay quiet? NO! if the tea party, occupy movement, and oh idk the hundreds of protests going on around the world, should tell us anything its that people dont stay quiet when they feel threatened. FACE IT! the house wont see this as a big deal and they will pass it. it will be a thing. learn your rights. know them well. if you know your rights they cant touch you. you people are crazy...

If you feel secure in your rights, well good for you.

However, those rights have been violated many, many times in our history. The recent past shows multiple, glaring, examples of purely unconstitutional legislation being codified into law.

It's the way of aging republics - history shows this clearly, and we are not immune.

Eventually this experiment that is the US will run it's course...hopefully, it won't be in my lifetime.

[fullmoon97]

well a wise man once said you have your right to be wrong...

[Robert Hall]

I find that puzzling in a nation spawned from thinking like this:

"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" - Patrick Henry

I can't imagine that kind of thinking today. Today the general thought is more like 'whatever..I don't agree with what you say, so F you..."

[Camino LS6]

well a wise man once said you have your right to be wrong...

Would you be surprised to hear that I hope I am wrong?

I find that puzzling in a nation spawned from thinking like this:

"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" - Patrick Henry

I can't imagine that kind of thinking today. Today the general thought is more like 'whatever..I don't agree with what you say, so F you..."

And that's really too bad, since it cheapens the right of free speech.

[SAmadei]

the government doesn't take green cars seriously. you see any green limos? i think not. maybe hybrids but those run on gas as well.

What about CNG powered limos? Are they exempt?

again. i am tired of this you crazy people are giving me heartburn. if this really does become an invasion of privacy. (again idk how a cop catching you speeding and getting your black box to prove it is an invasion of privacy.)

Simple. Police like to blow things out of proportion. Half the they don't know how to properly maintain and operate a radar gun, let alone interpreting the results of a black box data readout. I've been accused on an occasion or two of going outrageously over the limit... when I was not... but I'd rather use my own source of speed information to fight that, such as the guy who used his GPS data to successfully fight a ticket... than give the officer the right to read back the last hour of my driving habits, taken out of context, with the goal of looking for extra things I may have done wrong... such as making multiple stops in a suspect neighborhood... having a drug dog brought in... who finds a tiny bit of contraband that got tracked into the car on somebody's shoe.

In the end, you have the right to not testify against yourself. Drug dealers aren't writing logs of their activities for a reason, and I'm not logging my legal activities, either.

you really think people will stay quiet? NO! if the tea party, occupy movement, and oh idk the hundreds of protests going on around the world, should tell us anything its that people dont stay quiet when they feel threatened. FACE IT!

These groups are protesting completely different things, and the average person is not paying attention to every last liberty being curtailed, as they are trying to make ends meet in an awful economy and keep their house.

the house wont see this as a big deal and they will pass it. it will be a thing.

Again, as a tack on to a bill that HAS to pass, or else budgets will collapse. This is where the line item veto is needed... or a requirement that new bills are prohibited from hiding potentially unpopular tacked on legislation.

learn your rights. know them well. if you know your rights they cant touch you. you people are crazy...

You have rights... but the police don't respect them and there are literally millions of laws written that you are breaking every day that you've never heard of. Go watch John Stossel's Illegal America. Once you break any one of those laws, your rights are severely limited when you are arrested. Or watch the Youtube videos of people in NH using their right to open carry and getting harassed, threatened and arrested by the police. Its not funny once you realize how quickly your life could be turned upside down by our government.

[fullmoon97]

well a wise man once said you have your right to be wrong...

Would you be surprised to hear that I hope I am wrong?

I find that puzzling in a nation spawned from thinking like this:

"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" - Patrick Henry

I can't imagine that kind of thinking today. Today the general thought is more like 'whatever..I don't agree with what you say, so F you..."

And that's really too bad, since it cheapens the right of free speech.

not one bit. i believe you believe 100% of what you are saying. im sure everyone hopes you are wrong. but with the information i have been given. i can ONLY see that you are wrong. i may call you crazy because i cant see your scenario with the clear lines that have been placed. this isnt about the government. i don't think they care one bit. maybe some special interest groups do. but they have even more limits on what they can do. insurance groups have this (i believe) to ensure their fiscal well being. and honestly is that a bad thing? lawyers will use anything. but if the other lawyer is good enough they can show the real picture. i dont think you should worry about "big brother" watching you.

[Camino LS6]

well a wise man once said you have your right to be wrong...

Would you be surprised to hear that I hope I am wrong?

I find that puzzling in a nation spawned from thinking like this:

"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" - Patrick Henry

I can't imagine that kind of thinking today. Today the general thought is more like 'whatever..I don't agree with what you say, so F you..."

And that's really too bad, since it cheapens the right of free speech.

not one bit. i believe you believe 100% of what you are saying. im sure everyone hopes you are wrong. but with the information i have been given. i can ONLY see that you are wrong. i may call you crazy because i cant see your scenario with the clear lines that have been placed. this isnt about the government. i don't think they care one bit. maybe some special interest groups do. but they have even more limits on what they can do. insurance groups have this (i believe) to ensure their fiscal well being. and honestly is that a bad thing? lawyers will use anything. but if the other lawyer is good enough they can show the real picture. i dont think you should worry about "big brother" watching you.

Fair enough.

I disagree, of course, but fair enough none the less.

[SAmadei]

I have a feeling that eventually insurance companies will pull something like they do with home insurance... so that if you don't have updated electrical, they won't insure your house. At some point, this logic applied to "features" like ABS, TC, black boxes, etc. will make it difficult to insure a car with standard insurance... relegating older cars to limited mileage collector insurance.

Is that somehow NOT a chipping away of personal freedom??

It is. I totally support our right to drive a deathtrap or live in a tinderbox, as long as we don't kill others with it. Something needs to be done to reign it in... not create more laws with insurance companies' interests as a priority.

Just as it is now considered child abuse to DUI with a child in the car, image a future where showing a child the delight of a ride in a old muscle car can get you an appointment with DYFS.

[fullmoon97]

not the right to drive topic again.

[Intrepidation]

[Robert Hall]

(Faraday cages are good places to hang out while wearing your tinfoil hat..protected from mind probes)

Edited May 18, 2012 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[Camino LS6]

One final point for your consideration, fullmoon.

As you say, this is something the insurance companies want. But that begs the question, is it really a good thing that

our congress is working to firm-up the bottom line for them?

Somehow, I have a hard time seeing that as any sort of public service.

[Robert Hall]

One final point for your consideration, fullmoon.

As you say, this is something the insurance companies want. But that begs the question, is it really a good thing that

our congress is working to firm-up the bottom line for them?

Somehow, I have a hard time seeing that as any sort of public service.

<cynical-realist>

Congress is doing what is good for the insurance companies...corrupt corporations that buy politicians. They don't have any incentive to do what is good for the public, since the public isn't financing their campaigns.

</cynical-realist>

Edited May 18, 2012 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[balthazar]

not the right to drive topic again.

Not 'right to drive', but 'right to drive what I like'.