GM News: GM Announces Pricing For The Cadillac XTS and Chevrolet Spark

[smk4565]

Cars do take a while to produce, and to build a brand takes even longer. But my complaint with Cadillac is why they didn't do more earlier on. Even if you say the management of the 80s was too clueless to see the imports coming, or how much of a threat Lexus would be, and give a pass on that. Fast forward to the late 90s when they realized they were in trouble, and decided to do Sigma. In 2003 when the first CTS came out, then STS, SRX, XLR, they should have been planning the replacements. Instead they re-did the CTS on the same chassis and killed the other 3 off. When Mercedes puts out a new S-class, they then go to work on the replacement, so that 6 years later they have another S-class to put on sale. Then they don't get caught with holes in the lineup or needing stop gaps.

[Drew Dowdell]

4 years seems like a really long time to get a new model on a new platform w/ existing engines to market...Toyota, Honda, VW, etc can probably do it in 2-3 years...

No... They can't. Prior to the current camry, the platform was the same but revised each go round. The camry platform is Toyota's W-body.

The current corolla is just cumulative MCEs going back to the mid-90s. Do we need to go into all the trouble Honda is in for half-assed redesigns? Work on the next Camry started before the current one was even unveiled.

And what existing engines? The 2.5 is new, the 2.0t is heavily revised, only the 3.6 us carry over.

[Robert Hall]

And what existing engines? The 2.5 is new, the 2.0t is heavily revised, only the 3.6 us carry over.

Isn't the 2.5 just a bigger 2.4?

[Drew Dowdell]

And what existing engines? The 2.5 is new, the 2.0t is heavily revised, only the 3.6 us carry over.

Isn't the 2.5 just a bigger 2.4?

No. mostly new design.

[SAmadei]

right back to the "It should not take this long!!!!" like a moth to a flame... ATS is here in 4 model years since BK. How much faster do you want it? I know... we can download it on our iPad....

GM has worked 3-4 ahead of time in the '60s, when there was scarely a computer in the process. The Alpha platform was first hatched in 2004 for the Torana... as a possible global 3-series competitor, NOT in 2009. It was only in 2009 that a new platform was announced.

Thats 8 years.

Come on you are smart enough to figure this one out. You know damn well the cars that were sold during the 2008-2009 will not be around but the cars under development during that time will still have a presents near 2020. The Malibu is a bit dated as it was mostly done a few years back. The new Impala and XTS roots are from the Lacrosse that was developed back before the money crunch.

And the GM engineers aren't improving the EpII platform as they build the Impala and XTS? In any case, EpII should be a memory, except on used car lots in 2020. Unless, of course, GM goes back to its old tricks.

You are also smart enough to under to understand the SIgma and Zeta are much like a RWD W body in a sense. They are both platforms with hard points developed on the fly during times when money was not readily available. Corners were cut and these cars while good cars were never what was intended by the engineers. At this point it would be better to pull a clean sheet of paper and do it right this time but that takes time and money.

GM morphed the W-body pretty well during its 25 year life. Sigma and Zeta were given a fraction of that. And so the clean sheet has little upper body hard points... at some point, the new platforms won't be platforms at all... but nothing but floorplan stampings and shared suspension bits. What if the next styling fad is an insanely deeply sculpted lower body? Then Alpha's lower hard points become a problem and GM's back to the drawing board for 4 years.

Also basing GM's Future on what we all know right now is a fools folly. Todays GM does not lead the public with bits of knowledge 5 years down the road as they once did. Who here suspected the 130R would show up at Detroit this year? Who here knows what all GM has planned? No one thats talking.

Since you can't read, I'll remind you that I was not talking about predicting what GM is doing... but GM had better be predicting what is going on in the automotive field in 5 years.

As for the comment on GM not having a any divisions to push small RWD cars and why would you need 4-5 North American divsions to do it in todays global market? Small RWD would sell well in Europe under Opel, Vauxhall or Chevy. It would also sell well as a Chevy rebadged as a Holden as much of their line up is today. Also they may find niches in China and Korea.

I didn't say you need 4-5 North American divisions... but you need 4-5 high production outlets... I don't see Vauxhall, Holden pushing 50-100K units of just this platform.

Right now, Camaro is good for 80K, 50K for CTS... but ATS will eat some CTS sales, so lets say 75K ATS and CTS sales. Thats 155K... over three lines... GM normally expects a lot more than that from a priority platform.

[SAmadei]

I really believe a few here do not understand the scope of the work that is going on with the lack of leaks. Also I don't think a few understand the cost of programs like Alpha, the Trucks large and small, The Omega and the electric car programs cost in dollars and man power take to do all at one time.

GM does not have a history of cost overruns and mistakes? Sorry, I like watching companies that make silk purses out of sow's ears... like Holden... or even Dodge during the dark days when it was that the Magnum was not going to cover the Intrepid, and Dodge got the Charger out in short time.

In this day and age few companies can take on the amount of development going on at GM right now. Most anymore have to share platforms, do joint partnerships, pay others to develope technology or sell out to another company just to keep alive. GM is doing more than just about any car company out there on their own.

While other struggle like Mazda and Mitsubishi to remain alive and others like cash flush BMW still have to pay companies like GM or ZF to design transmissions, GM for the most is doing it on their own. Outside VW and Toyota or Fiat few companies have the strength to take on as much as GM. Even Honda could not afford to do everyting GM is doing at this moment.

Last I checked, GM outsourced plenty of parts, so GM is no island. Tremec, CPI and A123Systems come immediately to mind.

[hyperv6]

I really believe a few here do not understand the scope of the work that is going on with the lack of leaks. Also I don't think a few understand the cost of programs like Alpha, the Trucks large and small, The Omega and the electric car programs cost in dollars and man power take to do all at one time.

GM does not have a history of cost overruns and mistakes? Sorry, I like watching companies that make silk purses out of sow's ears... like Holden... or even Dodge during the dark days when it was that the Magnum was not going to cover the Intrepid, and Dodge got the Charger out in short time.

In this day and age few companies can take on the amount of development going on at GM right now. Most anymore have to share platforms, do joint partnerships, pay others to develope technology or sell out to another company just to keep alive. GM is doing more than just about any car company out there on their own.

While other struggle like Mazda and Mitsubishi to remain alive and others like cash flush BMW still have to pay companies like GM or ZF to design transmissions, GM for the most is doing it on their own. Outside VW and Toyota or Fiat few companies have the strength to take on as much as GM. Even Honda could not afford to do everyting GM is doing at this moment.

Last I checked, GM outsourced plenty of parts, so GM is no island. Tremec, CPI and A123Systems come immediately to mind.

Sorry they may have good cars but they were far from Silk purses.

Everyone in the industry has turned to part suppliers. What I speak of is where an Auto mfg goes to another auto mfg to buy parts they built for them. The only cases I recall here is where Ford help fund the transmission GM built for them to share. But that was another case where GM did most of the work and got paid to do it then used the tranny for themselves. Also the Honda V6 in the Saturn but I suspect that was a desperate attempt to attract buyers at a time Saturn was dying.

[ZL-1]

Cars do take a while to produce, and to build a brand takes even longer. But my complaint with Cadillac is why they didn't do more earlier on. Even if you say the management of the 80s was too clueless to see the imports coming, or how much of a threat Lexus would be, and give a pass on that. Fast forward to the late 90s when they realized they were in trouble, and decided to do Sigma. In 2003 when the first CTS came out, then STS, SRX, XLR, they should have been planning the replacements. Instead they re-did the CTS on the same chassis and killed the other 3 off. When Mercedes puts out a new S-class, they then go to work on the replacement, so that 6 years later they have another S-class to put on sale. Then they don't get caught with holes in the lineup or needing stop gaps.

Yep; it's been about some lack of consistency in the brand's direction (apart from the styling theme which IMO has been coehese).

Edited April 11, 2012 by ZL-1

[hyperv6]

Torano was a dream in a bucket in 2004. Times and priorities have changed. We may see something like it but there are greater needs. That show car came at a time the Alpha was only an idea and not much more, Reality and time can change priorities.

The Impala and XTS will take this platform to the next level but how many times should a company evolve a platform before it is replaced. the W body is a good example. While was imporved it was far from world class. Owned the best and last W version and while it was a good car I do not miss it in any way. The warts still stick out on that car compared to other vehicles GM and other have done. That is one platform that should never have gone more than 12-15 years, And that is a streach.

The Alpha when shared globally with several lines [since it can be adapted to several very different cars] can be done at lower volumes. Also the fact Cadillac did much of the investment it will help the others have a better car with less investment. We now need to look at total volume of platforms on a global basis not market basis.

[Drew Dowdell]

Torina was Zeta with weight chopped out. It was NOT an Alpha.

[ocnblu]

Torana only suggested a smaller RWD platform. Alpha did not exist back then, IIRC.

[Drew Dowdell]

I was posting from my phone...

[ocnblu]

Drewbert, you were not the only guilty party, there were two posts in a row that misspelled it. Maybe I'm easily annoyed by spelung misteaks.

[GMTruckGuy74]

Does anyone know the on-sale date of the Chevy Spark? My wife really loves this car, and we're considering a cheap lease vehicle for work commuting (I tried to get her interested in the Sonic hatchback at the NYIAS to no avail). The Chevy spokespersons told us that they'll be available in summer, but had no concrete date. Are they being built yet?

[G. David Felt]

All emails I get on the Spark keep saying summer 2012, so no idea if it is early or late.

Saw the DEMO Spark on the freeway today and it ended up being next to a Mini. Pretty cool little car. Taller than a mini but better looking IMO. I am actually really excited by this little car.

[GMTruckGuy74]

So is my wife, dfelt. The whole commuting together ritual is getting to be a pain in the arse, seeing as how she sometimes (say 3x's a week) needs to stay beyond 5:00 PM and we need to be home by 6:00 PM for our children (well, at least one of us). My work schedule & department are more flexible with coming and going, where her department is more rigid in start & end times. We've been compromising for the past year & a half, and days we can't compromise we take separate vehicles (I hate putting all that mileage on my Envoy, and the gas it consumes). Either we lease a small commuter car, like the Spark, so I can take the G6 (which already has a lot of miles from her commuting with it the past four years), or we look at a decent but older used car (I've found two '97 Chevy Lumina sedans that have under 90k in mileage that seem pretty affordable as an added commuter car). The wife would really like the Spark, though we could benefit from the added vehicle now and not "summer".