GM News: GM Announces Pricing For The Cadillac XTS and Chevrolet Spark

[William Maley]

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William Maley

Editor/Reporter - CheersandGears.com

April 5, 2012

Today, General Motors announcing pricing for the Cadillac XTS and Chevrolet Spark.

The Spark will start at $12,995 (includes destination) for the base LS model. The base LS includes 10 airbags, air conditioning, power windows, OnStar and 15-inch alloys. Next up is the 1LT trim, costing $14,495. The 1LT will include seven-inch color touchscreen, USB connectivity, satellite radio, keyless entry, power mirrors, cruise control, Bluetooth, visor mirrors, and floor mats. The top level 2LT, costing $15,795 will include a unique set of 15-inch wheels, sportier body-color fascias, fog lamps, exterior brightwork, heated, leatherette-covered seats, and a leather-wrapped wheel.

All models will come equipped with a 1.2L Ecotec four-cylinder and a five-speed manual. A four-speed automatic is optional.

The Spark arrives at Chevrolet Dealers sometime later this year.

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As for the Cadillac XTS, its base price starts at $44,995 for the base, front-wheel-drive model. The base model includes dual exhaust, 10-way power front seats, passive keyless entry, push-button start, dual-zone automatic climate control, wood and leather-wrapped steering wheel, perforated leather upholstery, eight-speaker Bose stereo, Sapele wood trim, "cut and sew" dash and trim, high-intensity-discharge headlights, rear parking sonar and 19-inch aluminum wheels.

Also on the base model XTS is Cadillac's new CUE multimedia system with a standard 8-inch touch display. Magnetic Ride Control, a rear air suspension, and Brembo brakes.

Instead of offering model trims, the XTS will offer "option collections". The "option collections," are Luxury, Premium and Platinum. AWD will also be available.

The XTS will debut in May.

Press Releases are on Page 3 & 4

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2013 Spark Packs Technology and Features into Small Price

Mini car comes in three trim levels starting at $12,995 including destination

DETROIT – Chevrolet is taking the guesswork out of the car-buying process with a new, simpler approach to pricing and packaging for the 2013 Spark. When the mini car goes on sale later this year, Spark will be available in three well-equipped trim levels starting at $12,995 including destination.

Spark is a sporty, fuel-efficient, four-passenger, five-door hatch designed to excite first-time car buyers and city dwellers with bold styling, attention-grabbing colors – including Salsa, Jalapeno, Denim, Lemonade and Techno Pink – engaging driving dynamics, the personalized connectivity of MyLink, and the safety of 10 standard air bags.

Spark also offers more passenger and cargo room than other mini cars such as the Fiat 500, Smartfortwo and Scion IQ.

“With the Spark Chevrolet has the opportunity to connect with a new generation of car buyers who expect more from every product they purchase,” said Chris Perry, vice president of Chevrolet Global Marketing. “So we wanted to make the process of choosing a Spark as simple as possible by reducing the number of stand-alone options and providing more standard content to each trim level at a competitive price.”

Spark LS starting at $12,995 includes:

• Standard 1.2L Ecotec engine and five-speed manual transmission
  
• Standard convenience features including air conditioning, power windows, rear window wiper, auxiliary input jack, outside temperature display and trip computer
  
• 15-inch alloy wheels
  
• 60/40 split flip-and-fold rear seat
  
• Comprehensive safety package including 10 air bags, electronic stability control with traction control and brake assist
  
• OnStar Directions & Connections plan standard with six-month introductory subscription
  

Spark 1LT starting at $14,495 includes LS standard content and adds:

• Standard 7-inch color touch radio with Chevrolet MyLink, Bluetooth connectivity for select phones, steering wheel audio controls, USB port and Sirius XM Radio with three-month trial subscription
  
• Other standard convenience features include power door locks with remote keyless entry, theft deterent system, outside power mirrors, floor mats, visor mirrors, and cruise control
  

Spark 2LT starting at $15,795 includes all 1LT standard content and adds:

• Unique 15-inch alloy wheels
  
• Fog lamps
  
• Exterior appearance enhancements including silver painted roof rails; chrome lift gate handle, exhaust outlet and beltline molding; body-color lower rocker molding; front and rear body-color sport fascias with unique front upper and lower grille inserts
  

On the interior, leatherette seats and heated front seats and leather-wrapped steering wheel

A 4-speed automatic transmission is available on all models for $925. The only other available options include an engine block heater for $75 and Black Granite paint for $195.

Chevrolet MyLink in the Spark will include Pandora internet radio and Stitcher Smart Radio apps. Later in the model year, the recently introduced GogoLink – an embedded smartphone application that delivers full-function navigation including live traffic updates – will be available. Pricing for GogoLink will be announced later.

Spark is the only car in its segment to provide the added value of a five-year, 100,000-mile powertrain warranty and the safety and security of OnStar.

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High-tech Cadillac XTS is New Definition of Luxury

CUE, new in-car user experience, and Magnetic Ride Control standard

DETROIT –The 2013 Cadillac XTSluxury sedan, Cadillac’s most technologically advanced car yet, will be available at U.S. dealerships later this spring with a starting price of $44,995 including destination

The all-new XTS is the only car in its class with standard Magnetic Ride Control, the world’s-fastest reacting suspension technology. Also standard and making its debut in the XTS, is CUE, Cadillac’s breakthrough in-vehicle user experience for control and connectivity.

Three option collections will be offered on the XTS: Luxury, Premium and Platinum. The XTS Platinum model represents the highest level of technology and luxury, including a unique front appearance, wheels and interior colors, materials and trim. An advanced all-wheel-drive system, using Haldex technology to transfer power front-to-back, and side-to-side along the rear axle, will be offered on all three trim levels above the standard model.

“The all-new XTS redefines our approach to the luxury sedan by combining advanced technology, stunning design and confident performance,” said Don Butler, vice president Cadillac marketing. “XTS brings new and exclusive technology, while still delivering the space and elegance that is Cadillac’s DNA.”

Cadillac is preparing for the debut of CUE first automotive use of capacitive touch, the technology used by many of today’s best tablets and smartphones.

A new CUE iPad Application, which replicates the center screen that is the hub of the system, is being used to familiarize dealers with the experience as well as provide videos and information. The App will be opened to the public via the App Store in May as the XTS launches.

“We're taking advantage of the fact that CUE is parallel technology to tablets,” Butler said. “CUE is intuitive, in part because its control and command structure aims to be consistent with popular devices millions of people already use. The App adds to this by literally putting CUE into your hands, even before you can get into the car.”

Cadillac also will use OnStar to provide live assistance to XTS owners for CUE questions. And Cadillac dealerships will contain certified technology experts to familiarize shoppers and drivers with the system.

View full article

[G. David Felt]

WOW, I have to say I am really impressed as this is a great starter car for many and a great car for low income people. This should really help out sales.

Great Job Chevy, I think you truly have hit a sweet point that many people will like about it.

[smk4565]

XTS is priced where I thought it would be, contiues where the DTS was.

[G. David Felt]

The XTS will be a selling boom for Caddy to the retiring baby boomers. The pricing I think is just right for these people and with a better driving characteristic, it should also apeal to a younger set too.

[hyperv6]

The price is where the town car left off and the livery guys will be all over this. I suspect the MPG will be greater and operating cost will be down from the Town Car.

I saw where the Spark EV is reached 65% calibration. Word is they hope to get at least a reliable 80 miles or more per charge. The other Major goal is accurate readings on how many miles the car has left in it. The big complaint with the leaf and other EV cars are the reading of one so many miles left only to find it comes up short. GM hopes to avoid that. It will go into production they hope the first quarter 2013.

[Drew Dowdell]

I can't wait to get the XTS as a press car. The Lacrosse is still one of my favs, the XTS will just be the next level.

[daves87rs]

Cool on both accounts...

[regfootball]

hope they managed to give the XTS enough character difference from the LaX

[riviera74]

The XTS will be a selling boom for Caddy to the retiring baby boomers. The pricing I think is just right for these people and with a better driving characteristic, it should also apeal to a younger set too.

Retiring baby boomers? You mean the generation that largely ditched GM starting in the 70s and never returned?

Actually, XTS pricing is rather sane and the feature set is worthy for the prices offered. The only thing I would have changed is that the XTS should be the next generation Lucerne and have Cadillac get a real RWD luxury car above the CTS.

The Spark is just fine. Maybe I am shocked by the pricing since I actually remember when cars that small retailed for under $10K. Oh well.

[Drew Dowdell]

Yes... the people who go look at the ES and think "WTF did Toyota do to my car?"

[ocnblu]

The Schpark is a well-done little scooter, although we haven't seen photos of the base model, only the top line trim. The XTS seems priced well for what it is. No objections.

[§carlet §wordfish]

Didn't the original Aveo start below $10,000?

[smk4565]

The XTS will be a selling boom for Caddy to the retiring baby boomers. The pricing I think is just right for these people and with a better driving characteristic, it should also apeal to a younger set too.

Retiring baby boomers? You mean the generation that largely ditched GM starting in the 70s and never returned?

Agreed 100%. The baby boomers are buying imports for the most part, and are largely the reason GM went from 40% market share to 17% market share. Also the reason Cadillac went from #1 selling luxury car for 55 years in a row (in the USA) to 6th place last month. The baby boomers have been buying German and Japanese luxury.

And to dfelt's point, a better driving charateristic than what? A water bed? Look at cars near $50k, E-class, 5-series, A6, XF, GS350, Genesis 5.0 R-Spec, all those would have better driving characteristics than an XTS. The XTS will be luckly outhandle the new Acura RLX.

[Drew Dowdell]

You seem to think 60 year olds are looking for the same driving characteristics you are SMK. People buy the E-Class and 5-series for the badge and nothing more. A6, XF, and GS sales are in the tank. Genesis hasn't really taken off at all as most of the sales are of the coupe not the lux sedan. How many Genesis R-Specs do you really think Hyundai will sell?

The Lacrosse doesn't handle like a waterbed... you are so insanely off base here I wonder if you are returning to your trolling roots.

[smk4565]

Even if they are looking for just a smooth ride and no handling, I still think rear drivers can deliver better than the XTS. And the MKS is a little bit cheaper and Lexus ES even cheaper than that.

I think the old folks that bought the DTS will buy the XTS but I don't see the XTS hitting it big with baby boomers and younger, or anyone looking for good driving characteristics.

[Drew Dowdell]

You've driven the XTS already then? Can you share your XTS driving experience with the rest of the class? I'm interested in how the air suspension plus magnaride setup performs. Please use the "Reader Reviews" forum to post your findings.

[ocnblu]

I don't think the new ES is competition for the XTS or the LaCrosse. It seems to have gone over to AcuraTL/Buick Regal territory.

[riviera74]

Either way, the XTS is essentially an upgraded Impala. Nothing inherently wrong with that. I still think that Cadillac needs a RWD flagship to bolster itself and the XTS is not the answer (in the long run). One thing I did not know is that the Genesis sedan is not a good seller: why is that the case?

[Drew Dowdell]

Because in the end...its still a Hyundai.

It is suffering the same fate as the VW Phaeton. The genesis is ok inside, but the VW was even nicer and could be had with a W12.

[SAmadei]

One thing I did not know is that the Genesis sedan is not a good seller: why is that the case?

I think alot of this is due to the fact its such a stretch upmarket for Hyundai, with an unproven, new V8 engine hitting the market during a downturn. I think the sudden existance of the same-name Genesis Coupe and Equus also confused the situation for the buying public. I think they'll do better as time goes on.

Not unheard of, as I don't recall any of the Japanese companies fielding new luxury models doing all that well on the first generation, except Lexus.

[smk4565]

The Genesis is a stretch up market for Hyundai, so sales have been slow, but improving. In time Hyundai will start getting better sales, the car is far better than a Taurus, Avalon, Acura, Lincoln, or other front driver of equal price. More importantly, the Genesis gave Hyundai a flagship car that improved their image, and the Sonata, Elantra, Tuscon and Santa Fe are lighting up the sales chart.

And the Genesis I think is there for the long haul, it won't be a one and done stop gap.

[smk4565]

You've driven the XTS already then? Can you share your XTS driving experience with the rest of the class? I'm interested in how the air suspension plus magnaride setup performs. Please use the "Reader Reviews" forum to post your findings.

I don't really have any interest in even driving one because it is dressed up Impala for old folks. I've driven the CTS 3.6 DI with FE2 suspension and it was fine, but didn't wow me in anyway, I thought a 5-series was much more agile, and rode just as well. The Genesis V8 was more quite and rode better than a CTS, but in the corners was a bit softer and you felt the weight. The XTS isn't going to be better in driving characteristics than a CTS, so I have no reason to bother with it.

I wasn't impressed with the Epsilon 1 chassis, the G-body was far better. I guess the only reason I would drive an XTS or LaCrosse is to see how they compare to G-body cars like the Aurora and Seville STS of the early 2000s. But to be fair I wouldn't waste time driving a ES350 or Lincoln MKS or Acura either because all won't do what a rear drive car can do.

[hyperv6]

To market a Luxury car you can not use a Economy name. This would be like Chevy selling a Cadillac Flagship like car for $100,000. Most everyone but Hyundai and VW have learned that even a car with shared platforms need to have their own line and their own dealers.

The Corvette is one of the few vehicles that can get away with the econo label. Even though they are sold at a Chevy dealer they are more a Corvette first then they are a Chevy Second anymore. Also they are still seen as the economy SuperCar.

The XTS is the bridge to the future of Cadillac. The car is going to be the missing link to bridge those older buyers to the more modern higher priced cars.

The future of Cadillac will lower volume models with higher profits. The XTS is the one remaining line that will incorperate the past of volume but with many features of the new Cadillac which will be sold in volume.

Also this car will be sold as a higher volume fleet car and it will take the hit for resale for the rest of the line. Just look at the resale value of the Town Car. It did no service to those who bought the car that were not in fleet sales. In fact the Town Car was a bargin on the used car lots as you got a lot of car for the money used. Better that the one model is focused on volume and profit while the rest of the line is focused on lower volume higher quality cars as many of the German lines that are imported here.

In Germany they have higher volume lines that see a lot of fleet sales but we never see that here. Like wise if Caddy goes back to Europe the XTC may not make the trip but cars like the ATC and coming CTS will along with the low volume flagship.

Too many Americans have no clue that the Imports from Germany make a lot of more basic models and many see use as Police vehicles and taxis. These are the cars we never see here as over here they would like to protect their image. The fact is many car companies in this global market will be seen differently and marketed differently around the world. Some have been doing this for a long time some will need to learn

Also there is a segment in this market that still wants a FWD car. Agree with them or not there are those buyers who want this.

As for handling and performance it would be a little short sighted to think this car will not be a confident handling and riding car. Will it cut a 7 min lap at the ring? No! Will it drive and handle much like a normal luxury car with a good ride? Yes!

I can see a couple here have no clue on where GM is at with the state of FWD and have never driven one of the new cars they offer and found that in some it has become more and more difficult to tell what wheels are driven unless you really tax the driveline. Most in the general public will never tell what end of the XTC is driven.

The XTS will do fine and will provide much for Cadillac over the long haul.

I do not see the XTS as a upgraded Buick or Chevy as much as the the new Impala is a lower grade Cadillac. This is how Chevy wanted to be seen in the late 50's and it sold a lot of cars.

[smk4565]

The XTS is the bridge to the future of Cadillac. The car is going to be the missing link to bridge those older buyers to the more modern higher priced cars.

Also there is a segment in this market that still wants a FWD car. Agree with them or not there are those buyers who want this.

First point is true, the XTS is another bridge, but GM has had that mentality for 30 years. Why didn't Cadillac start working on a flagship in the 80s when Lexus did with the LS400? Or why not in the early 2000s when they decided to launch Sigma? Cadillac needs to bring their future to the present ASAP.

What segment wants a huge FWD luxury car? The 1,000 people that bought an MKS last month, most of which are all wheel drive, those few dozen non-fleet DTS buyers last year. There are only 3 front wheel drive cars with a base price over $40,000: the A6 2.0T, MKS and XTS.

[FAPTurbo]

What segment wants a huge FWD luxury car? The 1,000 people that bought an MKS last month, most of which are all wheel drive, those few dozen non-fleet DTS buyers last year. There are only 3 front wheel drive cars with a base price over $40,000: the A6 2.0T, MKS and XTS.

But the Lincoln's are underwhelming, inside and out, and on the road. People will buy an FWD luxury car if it's a good vehicle, or perceived to be one. Lexus sold over 3,000 ES' last month.

The Cadillac will have its niche. The one at my auto show had a lot of interest. A guy in his 30's told me that it's the perfect car - it'll handle rough roads comfortably and he'll get to work and back in a classy car, with a sumptuous interior.

It's not my kind of vehicle. But it should do fine.

[ocnblu]

I still think the XTS will become Cadillac's best seller. *shiver*

[hyperv6]

The XTS is the bridge to the future of Cadillac. The car is going to be the missing link to bridge those older buyers to the more modern higher priced cars.

Also there is a segment in this market that still wants a FWD car. Agree with them or not there are those buyers who want this.

First point is true, the XTS is another bridge, but GM has had that mentality for 30 years. Why didn't Cadillac start working on a flagship in the 80s when Lexus did with the LS400? Or why not in the early 2000s when they decided to launch Sigma? Cadillac needs to bring their future to the present ASAP.

What segment wants a huge FWD luxury car? The 1,000 people that bought an MKS last month, most of which are all wheel drive, those few dozen non-fleet DTS buyers last year. There are only 3 front wheel drive cars with a base price over $40,000: the A6 2.0T, MKS and XTS.

Cadillac did not work on a flag ship in the 80's because they had little money to do it right and they had little credibility to sell a true flagship. The STS was the first step in the right direction. Even Lexus while it sold a car well the LS 400 is still not considered a class leading car. Even Mr Toyda agress with this.

Just because you don't want a FWD Cadillac does not mean it will not sell. I just detailed a DTS today and the owner would buy another in a heartbeat. I hate the car and it is everything I hate in a car but I am open minded enough to understand I am not the target of this car. The people that are are willing to pay money for it.

Also in play is the fact the XTS was pretty much done by the time GM went into chapter 11. If they did not use this car it would have been money wasted and time lost till a new car was ready.

Finally you need to get you butt behind the wheel of many of these cars you diss and understand the FWD in you mind is not what is being built now. An informed opinion is a lot easier for us to take seriously.

The XTS will be very able and willing to do wha it is call to do. This car is not an AMG or M series fighter but will be a very able luxury car that will do the job well. There is more than one kind of car in this class and there is a market for this car to bring in money. Lincoln on the other hand really has done a weak job of just rebadges that really offer little for the big jump in money. The difference between Caddy and Lincoln is night and day even with Cadillac still needing work.

Finally this is not the flagship and never was going to be one. The proper car for the job is coming and this one will keep the cash flow going as Cadillac needs more than two cars and a bunch of trucks.

[riviera74]

Four cars, once you include the ATS and the SRX. That XTS interior needs to be fabulous for a driver around 40 to fall in love with the car once on the market. While the XTS will do just fine in its intended space, that still does not mean that it is a flagship. Since 2013 is not the year of the flagship, I hope that the Cadillac flagship comes out in 2014 or 2015 at the latest.

[smk4565]

Cadillac did not work on a flag ship in the 80's because they had little money to do it right and they had little credibility to sell a true flagship. The STS was the first step in the right direction. Even Lexus while it sold a car well the LS 400 is still not considered a class leading car. Even Mr Toyda agress with this.

Wait, GM in the 1980s when they ahd 40% domestic market share, and were the largest corporation in the world, didn't have any money? But Daimler-Benz had over $1 billion to spend on a redesign of the S-class and Toyota had $1 billion to spend on the Lexus LS400? How did they afford it?

[Robert Hall]

Cadillac did not work on a flag ship in the 80's because they had little money to do it right and they had little credibility to sell a true flagship. The STS was the first step in the right direction. Even Lexus while it sold a car well the LS 400 is still not considered a class leading car. Even Mr Toyda agress with this.

Wait, GM in the 1980s when they ahd 40% domestic market share, and were the largest corporation in the world, didn't have any money? But Daimler-Benz had over $1 billion to spend on a redesign of the S-class and Toyota had $1 billion to spend on the Lexus LS400? How did they afford it?

'Didn't have any money' has been the standard excuse for GM for decades...time to drop it.

[smk4565]

GM spent a couple billion on Saturn, GM had money, they just wasted it.

[Drew Dowdell]

The XTS is the bridge to the future of Cadillac. The car is going to be the missing link to bridge those older buyers to the more modern higher priced cars.

Also there is a segment in this market that still wants a FWD car. Agree with them or not there are those buyers who want this.

First point is true, the XTS is another bridge, but GM has had that mentality for 30 years. Why didn't Cadillac start working on a flagship in the 80s when Lexus did with the LS400? Or why not in the early 2000s when they decided to launch Sigma? Cadillac needs to bring their future to the present ASAP.

What segment wants a huge FWD luxury car? The 1,000 people that bought an MKS last month, most of which are all wheel drive, those few dozen non-fleet DTS buyers last year. There are only 3 front wheel drive cars with a base price over $40,000: the A6 2.0T, MKS and XTS.

The MKS is still a suck of a car. The interior feels like a tarted up Taurus in each and every way. You can't compare the XTS to the MKS directly because the XTS has a substantially nicer interior. You're so hung up on the drive wheels + price that you forget there is a WHOLE lot more to a car than just that.

All of the FWD high end Lux cars are out classed by the RWD cars right now.... but not for any reason that has to do with which wheels drive the car. It's all about the interior and looks.

If RWD is the key to big sales, why are the GS, Infiniti M, Genesis all sucking eggs right now?

[Robert Hall]

.... but not for any reason that has to do with which wheels drive the car. It's all about the interior and looks.

Unfortunately, the styling is ruined by the weak transverse engine FWD platform that seems to result in short noses and short wheel to firewall distances. They could put an extra 6 inches between the wheels and firewall, but nooo....the XTS would look a lot better w/ a 117-120 inch wheelbase (more length ahead of the firewall) than a tiny 111 inch wheelbase. I could tolerate FWD vehicles more if it wasn't for the stubby noses. The MKS, LaCrosse, Impala, and countless other FWD models suffer from this design flaw.

Weak FWD proportions usually also compromise front legroom. There is no excuse for a largish car to have wheelwell intrusion into the front floor.

Edited April 10, 2012 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[Drew Dowdell]

Cadillac had multiple flagships in the 80s. The 80-85 Seville, the Allante, the 92+ Seville.... the Fleetwood Brougham.

You may not have liked them, but they were still flagships.

[Drew Dowdell]

.... but not for any reason that has to do with which wheels drive the car. It's all about the interior and looks.

Unfortunately, the styling is ruined by the weak transverse engine FWD platform that seems to result in short noses and short wheel to firewall distances. They could put an extra 6 inches between the wheels and firewall, but nooo....the XTS would look a lot better w/ a 117-120 inch wheelbase (more length ahead of the firewall) than a tiny 111 inch wheelbase. I could tolerate FWD vehicles more if it wasn't for the stubby noses. The MKS, LaCrosse, Impala, and countless other FWD models suffer from this design flaw.

I, and 98% of the people who see the XTS within earshot of me, like the car style wise. There isn't anyone out there on the show floor with a measuring tape checking the wheel to door distance. It either looks good or it doesn't... that you don't like it is fine, but don't try to remove the choice for everyone else. It isn't a bland design.

I personally find the MKS, RL, and S80 to all be bland designs... right along with the Genesis, GS, and M. Guess what... they all sell like crap no matter the distance between the wheel and the door.

To put it yet another way... if RWD proportions were such a deciding factor for most buyers out there, the Chrysler 300C would be vastly outselling the Lexus ES. That won't be happening anytime soon. People buy the ES in droves... so clearly you're view on automotive styling doesn't apply to them.

[hyperv6]

Cadillac did not work on a flag ship in the 80's because they had little money to do it right and they had little credibility to sell a true flagship. The STS was the first step in the right direction. Even Lexus while it sold a car well the LS 400 is still not considered a class leading car. Even Mr Toyda agress with this.

Wait, GM in the 1980s when they ahd 40% domestic market share, and were the largest corporation in the world, didn't have any money? But Daimler-Benz had over $1 billion to spend on a redesign of the S-class and Toyota had $1 billion to spend on the Lexus LS400? How did they afford it?

GM nearly closed Pontiac in the early 80's because they may have been large but they were losing money. Then they also turned Olds Buick and Cadillac into basically one car division.

GM spent a lot of money but they were not making it back. They did not just go belly up in 2008 it took a lot of time to blow the reserves.

Edited April 10, 2012 by hyperv6

[hyperv6]

Cadillac did not work on a flag ship in the 80's because they had little money to do it right and they had little credibility to sell a true flagship. The STS was the first step in the right direction. Even Lexus while it sold a car well the LS 400 is still not considered a class leading car. Even Mr Toyda agress with this.

Wait, GM in the 1980s when they ahd 40% domestic market share, and were the largest corporation in the world, didn't have any money? But Daimler-Benz had over $1 billion to spend on a redesign of the S-class and Toyota had $1 billion to spend on the Lexus LS400? How did they afford it?

'Didn't have any money' has been the standard excuse for GM for decades...time to drop it.

It is not so much they did not have any money they just did not have enought to fix all that was wrong. If you have only so much jam you have to spread it thin to cover the piece of toast. Too many models and too many brands wasted the money and just did not provide the return on the dollar spent.

Like it or not the truth is the truth and you can just wish it away by not speaking of it. Again GM did not go belly up in the last few years, it took years to do so with failed or weak product that the public just did not want or like.

[Robert Hall]

'Didn't have any money' has been the standard excuse for GM for decades...time to drop it.

It is not so much they did not have any money they just did not have enought to fix all that was wrong. If you have only so much jam you have to spread it thin to cover the piece of toast. Too many models and too many brands wasted the money and just did not provide the return on the dollar spent.

Like it or not the truth is the truth and you can just wish it away by not speaking of it. Again GM did not go belly up in the last few years, it took years to do so with failed or weak product that the public just did not want or like.

They can't keep using the BR and past mistakes as excuses forever..they have to execute and build a range of world-class competitive models that sell....they do seem to be making progress w/ some models..

Edited April 10, 2012 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[ocnblu]

Somebody's not happy with progress, if Dan's pay will be frozen.

[hyperv6]

Somebody's not happy with progress, if Dan's pay will be frozen.

That is a politcal ploy for independent votes nothing more.

[hyperv6]

'Didn't have any money' has been the standard excuse for GM for decades...time to drop it.

It is not so much they did not have any money they just did not have enought to fix all that was wrong. If you have only so much jam you have to spread it thin to cover the piece of toast. Too many models and too many brands wasted the money and just did not provide the return on the dollar spent.

Like it or not the truth is the truth and you can just wish it away by not speaking of it. Again GM did not go belly up in the last few years, it took years to do so with failed or weak product that the public just did not want or like.

They can't keep using the BR and past mistakes as excuses forever..they have to execute and build a range of world-class competitive models that sell....they do seem to be making progress w/ some models..

They have not gotten to all the models yet. Many of the new models we have recently gotten were done before the chapter 11 and put on a shelf till they had money to put them into production. This way they were not like Chrysler and without new much new product for several years.

The first of the real new stuff is the ATS, Corvette and the new trucks. The XTS, Sonic, Malibu, ZL1 etc were all pretty much along before the money ran out.

While all the new product is better much of the improvments are due to Lutz changing the rules at GM to get some of the needed changes they needed. To get all of the changes many will take new platforms like the Alpha to get the new product to where it fully needs to be.

GM is big but not big enough to fix everything in 4 years. I have said for a long time it will take till 2020 or abouts to fix most of the products at GM. With the new CAFE it may take even longer. In either case it will be improved and the way GM is doing buisness now it improved so that should have an effect on old and new product combined.

The bottom line is GM has a lot more work to do as they still have a lot of things to fix and they will be the first to state this.

[Drew Dowdell]

Hyper, some people around here seem to think that you simply download a whole new car/platform/engine/transmission like you would an iPhone app. "It should not take this long!!!" just shows ignorance of the process. There is a drop dead date going back about 4 years. That the ATS will be rolling into lots this summer is borderline miracle.

[SAmadei]

GM is big but not big enough to fix everything in 4 years. I have said for a long time it will take till 2020 or abouts to fix most of the products at GM. With the new CAFE it may take even longer. In either case it will be improved and the way GM is doing buisness now it improved so that should have an effect on old and new product combined.

What products on sale during the BK (2009) will still be offered, virtually unchanged in 2020?!? GM needs to get things right on the next product cycle, not take 2-3 overhauls to catch up. If GM can't forecast four years out and make competitive cars, they aren't going to be fixed in 2020... or in 2040, 2200, 2240 or 24022.

The way GM is doing better business is to have blown off its legacy costs, of ~$6000 per car.

Olds, nobody here thinks you download a new car/platform/engine/trans like an iPhone app. But we want GM to speed up the process because they have the technology and parts to fill holes, and yet only sell them overseas.

By the time the ATS rolls into lots, Alpha will have been souring GM's RWD plans for 5 years... when does the next Alpha drop? Maybe the 130R? Maybe a 2016 Camaro? Critics will have some issue with the Alpha... too small, too large, too heavy, too flexible, won't pass 2016 impact regs, etc. Next thing you know, Alpha is declared obsolete by GM engineers and nothing else gets built on it and its successor... Alpha2 doesn't see the light of day until 2021. This is the fate of Sigma, Kappa and Zeta. Right now Alpha has two products depending on it... GM seems like it will only take a platform seriously if 4-5 major car lines are using it. Unfortunately, GM no longer has the brands to push 4-5 medium-to-small RWD vehicles.

I don't think anyone expects GM to create the perfect platform... since in a world of changing priorities, its a moving target... so GM needs to get over it and start building cars and brands with some real equity and stop playing with vaporware and unobtainium.

[Drew Dowdell]

Sigma is too heavy (and to a degree, not flexible enough)

Kappa wasn't flexible enough at all

Zeta is too heavy

The ATS is the first car to be released that the vast majority of the work was done post-BK. Nothing that you can drive today was started post BK.

so GM needs to get over it and start building cars and brands with some real equity and stop playing with vaporware and unobtainium.

right back to the "It should not take this long!!!!" like a moth to a flame... ATS is here in 4 model years since BK. How much faster do you want it? I know... we can download it on our iPad....

4 years for an entirely new car on and entirely new platform is lightning speed. I'm not sure that there are any other companies out there with that kind of schedule going... and to a degree that worries me about the ATS. Omega platform didn't get the green light till about 18 months after BK and we'll be seeing the beginnings of that in late 2013 (or we possibly could have already with the Ciel)

[hyperv6]

GM is big but not big enough to fix everything in 4 years. I have said for a long time it will take till 2020 or abouts to fix most of the products at GM. With the new CAFE it may take even longer. In either case it will be improved and the way GM is doing buisness now it improved so that should have an effect on old and new product combined.

What products on sale during the BK (2009) will still be offered, virtually unchanged in 2020?!? GM needs to get things right on the next product cycle, not take 2-3 overhauls to catch up. If GM can't forecast four years out and make competitive cars, they aren't going to be fixed in 2020... or in 2040, 2200, 2240 or 24022.

The way GM is doing better business is to have blown off its legacy costs, of ~$6000 per car.

Olds, nobody here thinks you download a new car/platform/engine/trans like an iPhone app. But we want GM to speed up the process because they have the technology and parts to fill holes, and yet only sell them overseas.

By the time the ATS rolls into lots, Alpha will have been souring GM's RWD plans for 5 years... when does the next Alpha drop? Maybe the 130R? Maybe a 2016 Camaro? Critics will have some issue with the Alpha... too small, too large, too heavy, too flexible, won't pass 2016 impact regs, etc. Next thing you know, Alpha is declared obsolete by GM engineers and nothing else gets built on it and its successor... Alpha2 doesn't see the light of day until 2021. This is the fate of Sigma, Kappa and Zeta. Right now Alpha has two products depending on it... GM seems like it will only take a platform seriously if 4-5 major car lines are using it. Unfortunately, GM no longer has the brands to push 4-5 medium-to-small RWD vehicles.

I don't think anyone expects GM to create the perfect platform... since in a world of changing priorities, its a moving target... so GM needs to get over it and start building cars and brands with some real equity and stop playing with vaporware and unobtainium.

Come on you are smart enough to figure this one out. You know damn well the cars that were sold during the 2008-2009 will not be around but the cars under development during that time will still have a presents near 2020. The Malibu is a bit dated as it was mostly done a few years back. The new Impala and XTS roots are from the Lacrosse that was developed back before the money crunch.

You are also smart enough to under to understand the SIgma and Zeta are much like a RWD W body in a sense. They are both platforms with hard points developed on the fly during times when money was not readily available. Corners were cut and these cars while good cars were never what was intended by the engineers. At this point it would be better to pull a clean sheet of paper and do it right this time but that takes time and money.

Also basing GM's Future on what we all know right now is a fools folly. Todays GM does not lead the public with bits of knowledge 5 years down the road as they once did. Who here suspected the 130R would show up at Detroit this year? Who here knows what all GM has planned? No one thats talking.

As for the comment on GM not having a any divisions to push small RWD cars and why would you need 4-5 North American divsions to do it in todays global market? Small RWD would sell well in Europe under Opel, Vauxhall or Chevy. It would also sell well as a Chevy rebadged as a Holden as much of their line up is today. Also they may find niches in China and Korea.

[Robert Hall]

4 years seems like a really long time to get a new model on a new platform w/ existing engines to market...Toyota, Honda, VW, etc can probably do it in 2-3 years...

[hyperv6]

Sigma is too heavy (and to a degree, not flexible enough)

Kappa wasn't flexible enough at all

Zeta is too heavy

The ATS is the first car to be released that the vast majority of the work was done post-BK. Nothing that you can drive today was started post BK.

so GM needs to get over it and start building cars and brands with some real equity and stop playing with vaporware and unobtainium.

right back to the "It should not take this long!!!!" like a moth to a flame... ATS is here in 4 model years since BK. How much faster do you want it? I know... we can download it on our iPad....

4 years for an entirely new car on and entirely new platform is lightning speed. I'm not sure that there are any other companies out there with that kind of schedule going... and to a degree that worries me about the ATS. Omega platform didn't get the green light till about 18 months after BK and we'll be seeing the beginnings of that in late 2013 (or we possibly could have already with the Ciel)

I really believe a few here do not understand the scope of the work that is going on with the lack of leaks. Also I don't think a few understand the cost of programs like Alpha, the Trucks large and small, The Omega and the electric car programs cost in dollars and man power take to do all at one time.

In this day and age few companies can take on the amount of development going on at GM right now. Most anymore have to share platforms, do joint partnerships, pay others to develope technology or sell out to another company just to keep alive. GM is doing more than just about any car company out there on their own.

While other struggle like Mazda and Mitsubishi to remain alive and others like cash flush BMW still have to pay companies like GM or ZF to design transmissions, GM for the most is doing it on their own. Outside VW and Toyota or Fiat few companies have the strength to take on as much as GM. Even Honda could not afford to do everyting GM is doing at this moment.

[hyperv6]

4 years seems like a really long time to get a new model on a new platform w/ existing engines to market...Toyota, Honda, VW, etc can probably do it in 2-3 years...

The engine has been gone through and is improved in most areas. It is not like they just bolted in the same 2.0 from my HHR. Note the imvestment in the Ecotec plant and that was part of the time it too. Also you know full well that 4-5 years is normal. Much of Toyota, Honda and VW are evolution changes Honda and Toyota if anything should take a year more in styling alone.

[Z-06]

4 years seems like a really long time to get a new model on a new platform w/ existing engines to market...Toyota, Honda, VW, etc can probably do it in 2-3 years...

FT-86 went in design late 2007 and the production ceremony was held in March 2012. Yeah that is 2-3 years. Rather 2+3 = 5 years.

VW Up concept was shown in 2007 and still is not in production. Yeah that is 2-3 years. Again rather 2+3 = 5 years.

[Robert Hall]

Still staggering that it takes that long to develop a product. I guess I'm too used to product development in internet time.