Seems that Holden is now safe

[Camino LS6]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hZqkZ05PCg

[hyperv6]

Hmmm! What part of Austrailia is he from. That accent sounds familier. He sounds like he is from that outback town called Detroit.

Hmm! Cruze? is that a Holden or a Chevy. Hmm! Global platform? Chevy and Holden will become closer and closer.

I do wonder if they will get a Alpha and what could traslate to Chevy too or will Holden get a Camaro finally.

[Camino LS6]

Torana

[G. David Felt]

SWEET, this should bring some good intput to the GM global family of auto's.

[dwightlooi]

Well, Holden's bread and butter line is the Commodore. A RWD Zeta that save of the absence of the G8's ugly nostrils and Pontiac logo is same car. The Commodore is also the Police only Caprice. They'll probably face lift it (again) and have it run its course until it is replaced probably by a long wheelbased Alpha.

[dwightlooi]

Torana

The Torana became the ATS. Honestly, I don't think a rebranded ATS with its posh content is a good fit for the Holden brand's market positioning. The ATS is also too small to be a commodore replacement. What will likely happen is that if they wanted a "small" alpha they'll do a unique rendition with a different skin, interior and content -- and maybe call it the Torana. The Commodore's replacement will likely be a "large" Alpha in the same dimension class as a the CTS replacement. But, again, not as luxuriously appointed and probably wearing a completely different bodyshell.

But, then again, there is no Cadillac in Australia and no intention of marketing that brand there. So it is not out of the question that Holden will sell rebranded caddys as "high end" lines while as the same time doing rebranded Chevys as the everyman cars on their catalog. If you ask me though, it'll probably be better and simpler to simply keep Holden the everyman brand and simply import caddys at some point to covver the luxury market.

[hyperv6]

We have yet to really see how all the Alpha will be used yet. I expect some real suprised for this car. On the other hand the Zeta will ride off with some upgrade into the sunset in a couple years. The fact is it would be easier to make a new car lighter than remove weight from the Zeta. If it were that easy to remove the weight it would have been done by now and the ZL1 would not be over 4000 pounds.

I see Holden getting a Alpha at some point and the new Omega the new Cadillac flagship will be on will not just be for Cadillac only. I see it picking up the larger Zeta market too. It also will go through the weigh reduction like the ATS. While it may not hit 3200 I see it remaining large but under 3800 pounds.

At this point the only thing important about Austrailia and Holden is their markets need and want for RWD cars. The new cars are designed by nearly as many Americans and Aussies. They also do nearly as much work in Detroit and down under. The Camaro was far from a Holden only product and the future cars will be developed much the same way.

The key to the OZ market for GM is that it has a large RWD market that permits them to help support selling cars in the smaller American market. Being global will be the best thing for the RWD market.

We all need to stop thinking local market and start thinking global GM.

As for Cadillac down under. Hmmm I am not sure how that would work out. I am sure they will sell but the problem will be how much will they cost. I think that is what has held them up in the past. They would need to import them as I don't see them selling in great enough numbers for a production line there unless they could export them to China. But China may make them send them in kits as they could not export them as a whole unit. I think they did that with the Holden based Buick.

[Camino LS6]

I don't know why you keep saying that weight can't be removed from Zeta, Hyper. Holden has already done so. Camaro is on its own version of Zeta and is limited by its design (and selling nicely as is), so just because weight reduction hasn't happened for Camaro doesn't mean that it hasn't for Zeta as a whole.

[Camino LS6]

http://news.drive.com.au/drive/motor-news/commodore-shuns-heavy-metal-20110715-1hgxh.html

[hyperv6]

All I can tell you is what I heard from a GM engineer connected to the Zeta RWD program.

The upgrades or weight reductions you posted here are just the final phase of the Zeta and what they can trim. To cut away at the major bulk would damage the cars strength or make it too expensive to build.

Look at the underside of the then ATS and you will see how and where they pared down a lot of weight and that is just what you can see. The Alpha was built with strenght and weight reduction right from the start. It is easier and better to design new vs trying to fix old. GM can afford to do it right this time.

EIther way I see the Alpha and the New Omega taking the place of the Zeta. I really don't see that as a bad thing.

[Camino LS6]

That remains to be seen.

I have zero issues with Zeta's weight. But you kept saying that it couldn't be reduced, and that simply isn't true.

[CanadianBacon94]

Well, i doubt more weight would be an advantage, unless alpha is significantly more expensive, but i see where your coming from (years of <zeta platform> next spring)

[hyperv6]

I don't expect the Alpha cost will be out of line as they would not be using it for the next Camaro otherwise. Chevy has an advantage by using the Cadillac platform as it help take much of the development cost while Chevy will help give them back volume on the platform.

Weight is going to be an issue on all vehicles from here on out. It is either lose weignt or lose the platform. You can bet on who is in office that could kill the new CAFE laws.

The weight of the present car was ok 10 years ago and for a couple more years but time and regulations have passed it by.

To cut structure will make it a weaker car and to add enough more expensive materials to make it lighter will only add cost.

Like I said read up on how and why GM did the Alpha and you will understand what their thinking is. Agree or not this is GM's mind set.

If there was an easy and cheap way to cut weight they would have done it by now. All they are doing now with the token hood swap and other small bits is buying time.

[Camino LS6]

No, 7% is not token.

This is what I love about Holden, when there's a problem they just get on with the solution instead of adopting GMNA's mantra of "can't".

That's why they developed diesel tech for the Commodore and now offer a full line of dedicated CNG Commodores.

They don't sit on their asses and whine - they get something done!

[hyperv6]

7% is short term and is only buying time till they get to the platform they will need.

This is not Holden this is GM. Holden is no longer as autonomous as they once were. The American accent here should be a good sign of that.

I don't understand your fear of a newer lighter better RWD Zeta replacment. I agree the present car is good but I also understand the same type car 500-600 pounds lighter will not onl;y perform better but also live longer into the future. I see it as preserving the RWD for all of us.

Edited March 25, 2012 by hyperv6

[Camino LS6]

Meh, I don't fear Alpha. But until I see it in showrooms, it is just more vaporware from GM while they let Zeta rot.

No mercy from me on that.

[hyperv6]

No pain no gain....

GM's greatest issue is most of their vehicles are 500 pound min over weight. Even my new Terrain show the bulk.

If they can cust weight and not add to the cost or hurt durability the weight loss is a win win. Not only better MPG but better performance overal. Better handling, stopping and accelration. What more could you ask for.

My Terrain as stopping ability that is with in 6 feet of a Boxster. Imagine if it was 500 pound less in weight. Great brakes can be masked by too much mass.

Colin Chapman understood the performance end but never the durability. The company in the future than masters both will have a geat advantage.

FYI Vaporware is a so overused term today and does not apply to what we we are speaking on...... simple physics! Less mass less fuss. Less mass is a demension of performance that improves all areas not just one. It is the key to all things that are good as long as you factor in the durability and find a way to do it affordably.

[Camino LS6]

Vaporware applies.

GM's record on RWD:

Tease, Promise, dither, delay, fumble, waffle, and finally cancel.

Rinse and repeat.

Even the Camaro had to be shoved down their throats.

[Camino LS6]

But then again, those around the car forums seem quite certain that the new NASCAR Chevy will be a VF Commodore on Zeta II.

And that it will be in showrooms in very limited quantity.

Not good enough by half, but something.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Camino LS6

[hyperv6]

But then again, those around the car forums seem quite certain that the new NASCAR Chevy will be a VF Commodore on Zeta II.

And that it will be in showrooms in very limited quantity.

Not good enough by half, but something.

I have been telling this for the last 2-3 years but few listen.

Either way the Zeta is getting old and you can only update so much to the point and then a new clean sheet is a much better choice.

Most of your fumble and tease was pre Chapter 11 and while a RWD was nice GM had greater issues at stake line the much higher Cruze and Malibu. These are the cars that make the RWD possible, While there is a customer for RWD it is a much smaller group then the applicance cars. Sorry but boring cars are the high volume profit centers. I wish to it were different but we are in the minority here. I wish I could live on cake and ice cream everyday too but thats not wise either.

I will stand by my claim the next gen Zeta will be replaced in time by a much lighter and updated car that will make the present one easily outdated. It will be improved in all areas and will not just be a Holden but a Chevy and who knows what else. Be it based on a Alpha or Omega.

While the new car standard worry me they are getting companies to build better performance cars by removing the mass and that has been long overdue.

I think your eyes will be opened when you see the new standard ATS road test and take a test drive. When you are driving remember the performace one is still to come.

Edited March 26, 2012 by hyperv6

[Robert Hall]

Holden is getting the Malibu to replace the Epica, a variation of the NG FWD Impala will probably replace the Commodore. Australian buyers as elsewhere have embraced FWD appliances.

[Camino LS6]

But then again, those around the car forums seem quite certain that the new NASCAR Chevy will be a VF Commodore on Zeta II.

And that it will be in showrooms in very limited quantity.

Not good enough by half, but something.

I have been telling this for the last 2-3 years but few listen.

Either way the Zeta is getting old and you can only update so much to the point and then a new clean sheet is a much better choice.

Most of your fumble and tease was pre Chapter 11 and while a RWD was nice GM had greater issues at stake line the much higher Cruze and Malibu. These are the cars that make the RWD possible, While there is a customer for RWD it is a much smaller group then the applicance cars. Sorry but boring cars are the high volume profit centers. I wish to it were different but we are in the minority here. I wish I could live on cake and ice cream everyday too but thats not wise either.

I will stand by my claim the next gen Zeta will be replaced in time by a much lighter and updated car that will make the present one easily outdated. It will be improved in all areas and will not just be a Holden but a Chevy and who knows what else. Be it based on a Alpha or Omega.

While the new car standard worry me they are getting companies to build better performance cars by removing the mass and that has been long overdue.

I think your eyes will be opened when you see the new standard ATS road test and take a test drive. When you are driving remember the performace one is still to come.

My eyes have been open for a very long time, and what they see remains the same - a failure to follow through on GM's part.

No matter how great Alpha may eventually be, the utter wasting of Zeta since 2006 is not forgivable. If we had the Zeta cars here and available, I'd have little argument with the way things are. But we don't, dribs and drabs and half measures don't qualify.

No future virtue of Alpha or Omega will make up for it - especially if it is only at Cadillac. I don't want a Cadillac, and likely never will. So an ATS sedan doesn't get me too excited.

GM has had the good stuff in their back pocket for years, and still we don't have it.

[hyperv6]

The real issue is you just did not get your way.

The fact is GM has more things to do than just address the minority issues of a limited production Sports Sedan till the have their priorities in order.

They have to take care of the mojority of the market first and if they can afford to do it they will address the rest with what we want.

Trucks, Cruze, Malubu and the new Impala are all more important than any RWD car including the Camaro no matter how you try to justify it. The wants of the general public come first and the niche markets come second.

Like I have said we need to cheer the small appliances as they will pay the way for the lower volume cars we love.

I want the same things you do but I also understand what GM has to do. Things are not always as easy as we like to believe. We are all guilty of over simplifying things here as we always do not have all the facts and we also don't have out asses on the line and may lose our job with a mistake.

Mark Reuss worked on the Zeta and loves the car. He also is a champion of RWD so if there is a way to do these cars he will find a way. Lutz too will do what he can to fight for them. But they also understand they have to take care of the primary buyers first.

[hyperv6]

Holden is getting the Malibu to replace the Epica, a variation of the NG FWD Impala will probably replace the Commodore. Australian buyers as elsewhere have embraced FWD appliances.

If I recall the #1 car in OZ was a Mazda 3.

The Zeta is still doing well at #2 but the Falcon has taken a great hit the last few years.

Hyundai also has made market gains there too and not with RWD.

MPG and affordibility are a global thing with cars and many people can't afford as much car as they used too,

I think this is part of why the Cruze is doing well and I expect the Verano to also do well.

[Robert Hall]

Got to face the facts, Camino..it's not 1979 anymore (1979 being a year when GM was still majority RWD w/ lots of bodystyles available). GM, like Ford, Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, etc is primarily a maker of volume FWD (mostly 4cyl, automatic) appliances..forgettable, disposable appliances that the masses buy. That's the just the way it is...

Edited March 26, 2012 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[hyperv6]

Got to face the facts, Camino..it's not 1979 anymore (1979 being a year when GM was still majority RWD w/ lots of bodystyles available). GM, like Ford, Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, etc is primarily a maker of volume FWD (mostly 4cyl, automatic) appliances..forgettable, disposable appliances that the masses buy. That's the just the way it is...

We don't have to like it but there are too few of us to change it.

I do know there many in GM that still want to give us some RWD fun and they will if things are right. The coming RWD sport sedan is just that. GM would be here with or with out it but there are those who value these within GM and they don't want GM to be seen as on dimentional like Honda.

[Camino LS6]

BS.

I don'r have to accept anything.

The fact remains that GM has mishandled this for years, and failed to take advantage even where they could.

My gripe isn't about the predominance of appliances, it's the complete failure to broaden the scope - even when they have it in their worldwide portfolio, and even when they have already spent the time,money, and effort to establish an import regimen and federalize the cars.

That's just stupid.

[hyperv6]

Like I said we don't have all the facts here. It sure makes it an easy thing when you don't have to factor in any of the details.

It was made clear the sedan was not coming back till the new DI V8 was released.

[Camino LS6]

The details don't matter, the results do.

[hyperv6]

Details determine results and profits.

[Robert Hall]

The devil is in the details.

[hyperv6]

The devil is in the details.

No he is in Accounting!