Cadillac News: Spying: Cadillac CTS

[Robert Hall]

None of which actually matters, because the XTS is Cadillac's ES350.

I suppose GM just couldn't use the LaCrosse to compete w/ the MKS and ES, which is a more natural competitor for those models than something from Cadillac...

.... which is a function of greenhouse design... Not drive train layout...

True- look at the 'Steering Wheel to A-Pillar Base' of each.

The old cab-forward idea which hasn't gone away..unfortunately, with that stubby, sloping hood and lights coming half way up the fender, the XTS nose in profile looks like it was inspired by the Yaris..it needs at least an extra 6 inches of wheelbase, with at least 4 of it ahead of the firewall...111.7 is way too short for a fullsize.

Edited February 21, 2012 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[smk4565]

SRX sells because it is cheap. It also sells because Americans are suckers for domestic SUVs in the same way they are suckers for Camry and Accords. On the plus side, it looks better than an RX350 or MKX and it has more power than either one also. Lexus may have it in build quality and technology , but the Lincoln and Acrua offerings don't have an interior as good as the SRX. The German midsize luxury SUVs are considerably more expensive than an SRX.

To bring this back to the CTS, here is where the challenge will lie. When the CTS goes up in price to make way for the ATS, what happens to CTS sales? And then also, what happens with the XTS and CTS fully overlapped in price point?

[pow]

SRX sells because it is cheap. It also sells because Americans are suckers for domestic SUVs in the same way they are suckers for Camry and Accords. On the plus side, it looks better than an RX350 or MKX and it has more power than either one also. Lexus may have it in build quality and technology , but the Lincoln and Acrua offerings don't have an interior as good as the SRX. The German midsize luxury SUVs are considerably more expensive than an SRX.

To bring this back to the CTS, here is where the challenge will lie. When the CTS goes up in price to make way for the ATS, what happens to CTS sales? And then also, what happens with the XTS and CTS fully overlapped in price point?

New CTS will be a test to see if Cadillac can sell a $50-60K sedan in non-niche volumes. This has been a struggle for brands like Acura, Volvo, and Lincoln, but I think Cadillac can do it--think Escalade.

[Robert Hall]

New CTS will be a test to see if Cadillac can sell a $50-60K sedan in non-niche volumes. This has been a struggle for brands like Acura, Volvo, and Lincoln, but I think Cadillac can do it--think Escalade.

I think they can do it..the current CTS is fundamentally a very good product, and I expect the next one will be also..

Edited February 21, 2012 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[balthazar]

smk4565 ~ >>"SRX sells because it is cheap."<<

Price is a grand higher than the 1st gen, and ATP is $2500 higher also. Price is not the prime factor.

>>"It also sells because Americans are suckers for domestic SUVs in the same way they are suckers for Camry and Accords."<<

This is instantly disproven by the crushing volume of lexus RXs sold to 'sucker Americans'.

>>"When the CTS goes up in price to make way for the ATS, what happens to CTS sales?"<<

The focus here is profitability and improving the brand, it is not an all-out quest for volume (ALA mercedees).

>>"When the CTS goes up in price to make way for the ATS, what happens to CTS sales?"<<

I dunno- let's go ask mercedees how they handle their miniSUVvan & m-class SUV fully overlapping in price point.

[smk4565]

None of which actually matters, because the XTS is Cadillac's ES350.

I suppose GM just couldn't use the LaCrosse to compete w/ the MKS and ES, which is a more natural competitor for those models than something from Cadillac...

I don't think Buick competes with Lincoln or Lexus. There in lies part of the problem. The LaCrosse competes with the Avalon, Taurus and Maxima. A Maxima can even hit $41,000, so can a SHO. I'd say the Chrysler 300 and Genesis are competitors also on size and price point, different drive wheels, but they would still get cross shopped I think.

Since Buick is not a luxury car, Cadillac has to wear many hats, thus they need an XTS to cater to those in Florida that like pastel pearl paint jobs and seats you sink in to. I question if they really need to cater to this market though. Or if the CTS were as well executed as the E-class that it couldn't attract both those that want smooth ride and those that want performance.

[balthazar]

>>"I don't think Buick competes with Lincoln or Lexus."<<

"I don't think hyundai competes with mercedees or BMW"

Or, oh wait- in this case are we allowed to look at the individual models concerned instead of rocking off 1990s stereotypes.

[smk4565]

SRX sells because it is cheap. It also sells because Americans are suckers for domestic SUVs in the same way they are suckers for Camry and Accords. On the plus side, it looks better than an RX350 or MKX and it has more power than either one also. Lexus may have it in build quality and technology , but the Lincoln and Acrua offerings don't have an interior as good as the SRX. The German midsize luxury SUVs are considerably more expensive than an SRX.

To bring this back to the CTS, here is where the challenge will lie. When the CTS goes up in price to make way for the ATS, what happens to CTS sales? And then also, what happens with the XTS and CTS fully overlapped in price point?

New CTS will be a test to see if Cadillac can sell a $50-60K sedan in non-niche volumes. This has been a struggle for brands like Acura, Volvo, and Lincoln, but I think Cadillac can do it--think Escalade.

Escalade is a truck though, and huge SUVs have had success in the high dollar range, although obviously popularity has declined over the past few years. CTS V6 has to sell at a similer price point as the STS V8, and we know how few STS V8s they were selling the past few years.

[smk4565]

smk4565 ~ >>"SRX sells because it is cheap."<<

Price is a grand higher than the 1st gen, and ATP is $2500 higher also. Price is not the prime factor.

>>"It also sells because Americans are suckers for domestic SUVs in the same way they are suckers for Camry and Accords."<<

This is instantly disproven by the crushing volume of lexus RXs sold to 'sucker Americans'.

>>"When the CTS goes up in price to make way for the ATS, what happens to CTS sales?"<<

The focus here is profitability and improving the brand, it is not an all-out quest for volume (ALA mercedees).

>>"When the CTS goes up in price to make way for the ATS, what happens to CTS sales?"<<

I dunno- let's go ask mercedees how they handle their miniSUVvan & m-class SUV fully overlapping in price point.

If you look at sales of midsize to full size SUVs, luxury and non-luxury, the domestics outsell the imports. In general Americans prefer American SUVs to Japanese ones for example. The RX350 bucks the trend because it was one of the first luxury crossovers, probably the first.

I agree profitability is most important. But they need to sell more than 700 CTS's a month like Audi does with the A6. Or like the STS used to sell. This new CTS has to blow the current CTS away, if it is just 10% better, and 10% bigger, they already sold that car from 2005-2011 and it failed.

[smk4565]

>>"I don't think Buick competes with Lincoln or Lexus."<<

"I don't think hyundai competes with mercedees or BMW"

Or, oh wait- in this case are we allowed to look at the individual models concerned instead of rocking off 1990s stereotypes.

Hyundai does not compete with BMW or Mercedes, I don't think they should even mention how the Genesis V8 has more horsepower than an E550. They should say how the Genesis V8 has 100 more hp than a CTS or G37 or Lincoln/Acura whatever. Hyundai shoud compare directly to other $35-45,000 cars because theirs is way better. And they should promote RWD like crazy to the fools buying Lincolns and Acuras.

[Drew Dowdell]

SRX sells because it is cheap. It also sells because Americans are suckers for domestic SUVs in the same way they are suckers for Camry and Accords. On the plus side, it looks better than an RX350 or MKX and it has more power than either one also. Lexus may have it in build quality and technology , but the Lincoln and Acrua offerings don't have an interior as good as the SRX. The German midsize luxury SUVs are considerably more expensive than an SRX.

To bring this back to the CTS, here is where the challenge will lie. When the CTS goes up in price to make way for the ATS, what happens to CTS sales? And then also, what happens with the XTS and CTS fully overlapped in price point?

Let's play the "How many times is SMK wrong?" game... this isn't a drinking game because I don't want to have to check you all in to Betty Ford....

1. SRX transaction prices are equal to the X3 and GLK. The SRX is the same size interior as those which is how car classes are determined... interior room. If the SRX is cheap, then so are they.
   
2. SRX has a 71% conquest rate
   
3. There simply weren't enough MKXes and Aspens sold for "domestic only" SUV buyers to come flocking to Cadillac at that volume.
   
4. The Lexus build quality on the RX hasn't advanced since 2004, in some areas they've reversed course.
   
5. The X5 and M-Class are a completely different class from the SRX, neither are entry lux CUV.
   
6. Asking "what happens when the CTS and XTS overlap in price point?" is like asking "What happens when the Escalade and Corvette overlap in price point?" or "What happens when the Sprinter and C-class overlap in price point?".. and roughly equal to "What happens when the ATS and Lacrosse overlap in price point?!?!?!?!?!11?!!?!"
   

[Drew Dowdell]

None of which actually matters, because the XTS is Cadillac's ES350.

I suppose GM just couldn't use the LaCrosse to compete w/ the MKS and ES, which is a more natural competitor for those models than something from Cadillac...

I don't think Buick competes with Lincoln or Lexus. There in lies part of the problem. The LaCrosse competes with the Avalon, Taurus and Maxima. A Maxima can even hit $41,000, so can a SHO. I'd say the Chrysler 300 and Genesis are competitors also on size and price point, different drive wheels, but they would still get cross shopped I think.

Since Buick is not a luxury car, Cadillac has to wear many hats, thus they need an XTS to cater to those in Florida that like pastel pearl paint jobs and seats you sink in to. I question if they really need to cater to this market though. Or if the CTS were as well executed as the E-class that it couldn't attract both those that want smooth ride and those that want performance.

The Lacrosse and Enclave are most certainly luxury vehicles. They do quiet, power, and handling better than their counterparts at Lexus

[Drew Dowdell]

SRX sells because it is cheap. It also sells because Americans are suckers for domestic SUVs in the same way they are suckers for Camry and Accords. On the plus side, it looks better than an RX350 or MKX and it has more power than either one also. Lexus may have it in build quality and technology , but the Lincoln and Acrua offerings don't have an interior as good as the SRX. The German midsize luxury SUVs are considerably more expensive than an SRX.

To bring this back to the CTS, here is where the challenge will lie. When the CTS goes up in price to make way for the ATS, what happens to CTS sales? And then also, what happens with the XTS and CTS fully overlapped in price point?

New CTS will be a test to see if Cadillac can sell a $50-60K sedan in non-niche volumes. This has been a struggle for brands like Acura, Volvo, and Lincoln, but I think Cadillac can do it--think Escalade.

Escalade is a truck though, and huge SUVs have had success in the high dollar range, although obviously popularity has declined over the past few years. CTS V6 has to sell at a similer price point as the STS V8, and we know how few STS V8s they were selling the past few years.

What SMK meant to say what that it needs to sell at the same price point as a 3900lb 4-cylinder 5-series with "leatherette"

[balthazar]

I agree profitability is most important. But they need to sell more than 700 CTS's a month like Audi does with the A6.

CTS sold 5200 units in Dec.

Last time I checked, 5200 is more than 800.

[ocnblu]

"smk" persona seems like a device to me.

[G. David Felt]

I wonder if some of the people on here like to post just to post rather than contribute? I know we all like to agree with others at times, but it seems some tend to be specific in posting stretched info.

Comparing Apples to Pears seems to be common place now.

[hyperv6]

MYOPIA

1: a condition in which the visual images come to a focus in front of the retina of the eye resulting especially in defective vision of distant objects

2: a lack of foresight or discernment : a narrow view of something

— my·o·pic \-ˈō-pik, -ˈä-\

I think I may start a chairity for suffers if this infliction. What color should the ribbon be?

I see more and more cases all the time where many can't step back and look at the big picture for GM or the auto market.

Sometimes they are wrong because they don't understand the market or interject personel wants before market wants. Also they don't account the reasons GM is doing something because they either don't know or understand the internal reasons for some of GM's actions. GM can not always just go out and do what they want as even they have limits.

Desiging building and selling autombiles is not an easy task and it even trips up the sharpest minds at times. Even Lutz who is one of the few who has a pretty good grasp of the market as admitted his errors.

The XTS is the best they can do short term and it is better than nothing. Even GM can make lemonaide out of a lemon. [Not saying the XTS is a Lemon] Time will prove who wins here witht he XTS. I think we all have placed our bets and will just have to wait and see who wins. By then the losers will remain quiet and the winners will forget about who said what as the next argument with new distorted facts will be on the table.

Edited February 21, 2012 by hyperv6

[smk4565]

I agree profitability is most important. But they need to sell more than 700 CTS's a month like Audi does with the A6.

CTS sold 5200 units in Dec.

Last time I checked, 5200 is more than 800.

Yes, but that is without the ATS in dealerships, and no STS in dealerships either. The CTS sells well now, but what if base price goes up $10,000 over night, and a cheaper car is offered. They want the CTS to get bigger and more expesnive, thus exactly what the STS was, and the STS was a dud. So my point was only that the CTS better be fantastic, and not another STS, because they can't afford STS sales volumes.

[smk4565]

None of which actually matters, because the XTS is Cadillac's ES350.

I suppose GM just couldn't use the LaCrosse to compete w/ the MKS and ES, which is a more natural competitor for those models than something from Cadillac...

I don't think Buick competes with Lincoln or Lexus. There in lies part of the problem. The LaCrosse competes with the Avalon, Taurus and Maxima. A Maxima can even hit $41,000, so can a SHO. I'd say the Chrysler 300 and Genesis are competitors also on size and price point, different drive wheels, but they would still get cross shopped I think.

Since Buick is not a luxury car, Cadillac has to wear many hats, thus they need an XTS to cater to those in Florida that like pastel pearl paint jobs and seats you sink in to. I question if they really need to cater to this market though. Or if the CTS were as well executed as the E-class that it couldn't attract both those that want smooth ride and those that want performance.

The Lacrosse and Enclave are most certainly luxury vehicles. They do quiet, power, and handling better than their counterparts at Lexus

I still don't see Buick as luxury. A Nissan Maxima is $2,000 more than a LaCrosse, is that a luxruy car? The LaCrosse and Enclave are also full size vehicles, a car or SUV of that size from a luxury brand would cost far more. Enclave is the same size and seating capacity as an Escalade, yet the Escalade is $30,000 more. So if the Enclave is a true luxury SUV, then why are people buying Escaldes, or why aren't they charging $60k for an Enclave? The reason being the Envlace nor any Buick are luxury vehicles.

[hyperv6]

The CTS will take the place of the STS in a way but it will not be the STS. Don't be so focused that that a larger CTS=STS.

The Alpha will let it be the car the STS could never have been.

If they can give you a CTS with more interior room, faster magnetic tuned suspension and more power than the present car at nearly the same weight or possibly less? Would you find that acceptable? This is what we know could be possible with this new car. This will be a car built on the new platform and not just a rehash of an old outdated platform that has it's limits to get anylighter or flexible.

Step back and take a look at the big picture and what the Alpha is telling us that it can do. there is a lot to learn by understanding the thinking that went into the Alpha. This is GM platform they wanted a long time ago and could not afford to build. This time they got what they wanted.

Lighten up on Buick as they are like Cadillac and only are starting to evolve to where they need to be. We have yet to dee an all new post Chapter 11 Buick and we have only seen the first Chapter 11 Cadillac. This will take some time to move up fully to the segment where they will live. Each new model will be a building block.

Edited February 21, 2012 by hyperv6

[CanadianBacon94]

I agree profitability is most important. But they need to sell more than 700 CTS's a month like Audi does with the A6.

CTS sold 5200 units in Dec.

Last time I checked, 5200 is more than 800.

Yes, but that is without the ATS in dealerships, and no STS in dealerships either. The CTS sells well now, but what if base price goes up $10,000 over night, and a cheaper car is offered. They want the CTS to get bigger and more expesnive, thus exactly what the STS was, and the STS was a dud. So my point was only that the CTS better be fantastic, and not another STS, because they can't afford STS sales volumes.

But, was the STS better than the current CTS?

No, it wasn't the STS worked when it was the first gen, by the time the current gen CTS was two years old the STS was outclassed

[smk4565]

The CTS will take the place of the STS in a way but it will not be the STS. Don't be so focused that that a larger CTS=STS.

The Alpha will let it be the car the STS could never have been.

If they can give you a CTS with more interior room, faster magnetic tuned suspension and more power than the present car at nearly the same weight or possibly less? Would you find that acceptable? This is what we know could be possible with this new car. This will be a car built on the new platform and not just a rehash of an old outdated platform that has it's limits to get anylighter or flexible.

I don't think the CTS will become like the STS, but there is that risk. At the time Sigma came out, it was supposed to be as good as an E39 5-series, yet it wasn't. So we here Alpha is as good as an E46 3-series but we'll see. Maybe it is, maybe it out handles an E36 M3, only time will tell.

I would be satisfied with the CTS if it had more interior room, better materials and build quality, and the exterior didn't look bulky and fat. The 1st Gen CTS had better proportions than the current one, they it got fat and blingy. Powertrain needs upgraded to, the CTS isn't that quick or fuel efficient compared to the Germans or Infiniti M-hybrid.

I agree profitability is most important. But they need to sell more than 700 CTS's a month like Audi does with the A6.

CTS sold 5200 units in Dec.

Last time I checked, 5200 is more than 800.

Yes, but that is without the ATS in dealerships, and no STS in dealerships either. The CTS sells well now, but what if base price goes up $10,000 over night, and a cheaper car is offered. They want the CTS to get bigger and more expesnive, thus exactly what the STS was, and the STS was a dud. So my point was only that the CTS better be fantastic, and not another STS, because they can't afford STS sales volumes.

But, was the STS better than the current CTS?

No, it wasn't the STS worked when it was the first gen, by the time the current gen CTS was two years old the STS was outclassed

So like how the ATS will outclass a CTS that has been on the market for 5 model years?

[hyperv6]

The Sigma was only what GM could afford and not what they so much wanted. They did the best with the funding they had at the time. The STS was like all other GM cars at the time about 75% of what it needed to be. Just like the 4 th gen Camaro it got all the driveline and chassie they could afford but then they had nothing left for interior and power windows that would not fail.

The ATS ws designed from the start to be expanded and changed to different configs. The key to all of this will be the weight. No more heavy platform here. The Sigma and Zeta both were done in a way they could never remove the weight. They could remove a little but they had limits. The Alpha was designed to be lighter from the wheels up as they say. Also it is at the start of it's life.

As for your critic on proportions it is nothing put your subjective opinion. The CTS will see a Turbo 6 and a new DI V8. You really need to look ahead and not at what is at hand.

[CanadianBacon94]

So like how the ATS will outclass a CTS that has been on the market for 5 model years?

depends if the new CTS wont be out for five more model years

[Robert Hall]

So like how the ATS will outclass a CTS that has been on the market for 5 model years?

depends if the new CTS wont be out for five more model years

MY 2014, I think..

[smk4565]

Low weight RWD platform is a good start, but it is only a start. The Germans have had boosted sixes and DI V8s for years, so that only gets Cadillac caught up. But by 2014, the bar may have moved again. Plus, Mercedes is planning a 2800 lb E-class, so is low weight where Cadillac really wants to pick its battles?

[balthazar]

>>"Plus, Mercedes is planning a 2800 lb E-class"<<

Believe it when I see it - that sort of weight range is impossible in that size class anymore.

Or have they hinted they're going to strip the safety & electronics out of it?

[smk4565]

>>"Plus, Mercedes is planning a 2800 lb E-class"<<

Believe it when I see it - that sort of weight range is impossible in that size class anymore.

Or have they hinted they're going to strip the safety & electronics out of it?

Carbon fiber chassis and body, and possbily a fuel cell powertrain. They expect to only make 20,000 globally per year.

[Robert Hall]

>>"Plus, Mercedes is planning a 2800 lb E-class"<<

Believe it when I see it - that sort of weight range is impossible in that size class anymore.

Or have they hinted they're going to strip the safety & electronics out of it?

Carbon fiber chassis and body, and possbily a fuel cell powertrain. They expect to only make 20,000 globally per year.

So it will probably be $150k...back down to earth, we could expect a normal $50k E-class to be 3500-3800lbs or so?

[smk4565]

I believe they thought an E-superlight would be priced like an E63 AMG, but yes it could be pretty expensive. A regular V6 E-class is 3825 lbs, which I suspect is about what they will weigh for several years to come.

[Robert Hall]

I believe they thought an E-superlight would be priced like an E63 AMG, but yes it could be pretty expensive. A regular V6 E-class is 3825 lbs, which I suspect is about what they will weigh for several years to come.

Sort of an E 'Green Series'. Now what would be interesting would be a E-superlight w/ the AMG drivetrain...2800lbs + 500hp...

[G. David Felt]

I can only imagen the insurance premiums on a E-Superlight MB.

[hyperv6]

So like how the ATS will outclass a CTS that has been on the market for 5 model years?

depends if the new CTS wont be out for five more model years

With the photo's of the CTS I would expect 2014 as a 2015 model.

As for light weight cars it is the new thing for the entire auto industry. The Luxury cars and high end models will see more new light weight and expensive materials in use. We will see much more use of magnesium, aluminium and high strength plastics and molded carbon fiber. These will be added to the already expanded use of Boron Steel.

GM is alreasdy investing big in a company that has perfected molded Carbon Fiber. They expect to use this in many areas and reduce weight and cost of these items. They already have shown mirror units other items that can be made at a reasonable cost. Thes items will show up first on the Cadillac line and as volume increases the prices will drop to a point where they will find their way to the lower models just as most new technologies.

Lets face it they are not going to meet the new future CAFE without cutting weight even with a 3 cylinder in a ATS. They have a lot of other ideas and the E assist will also be improved and I would not be suprised to find a new improved system to become the norm in most models at some point. Luzt hinted loud this week about that. The industry is in no way ready to go all electric in the near future but electric boost will be a greater part every year. Even the new Ferrari Enzo replacment will have a 800 HP engine and a 100 HP electrivc motor booster.

I expect we will see where the future lies when we see and hear more on the flagship. I expect it to be a good size car with power but it will not be just a gas V8 only. I suspect a lot of the new technology they are working on will first show up in this car. It will make a statment of where the market is going and GM will say it loud with that car. After that much of what it has will find it's way to the rest of the line up and then to the other brands.

The new efficent technologies to come will rival things like FI, Anti Lock Brakes, Stability Control, DI, engine computer managment and other great advancements.

[smk4565]

Word is the next CTS may get an 8-speed automatic, but probably not at launch. To me the CTS needs 8 gears, even if they have to buy it off ZF. There has to be some sort of diesel or hybrid model that posts high fuel economy as well since Infiniti, Lexus, BMW have hybrids, and Merecedes has diesel, and Audi or Jaguar may add a diesel by 2015.

[G. David Felt]

HyperV6, I agree with your whole listed statement of new technologies.

BMW is almost done building their new Carbon Fiber (CF) Manufacturing Plant in Moses Lake Washington. They have also built a small test track there and have stated that they will be starting with building CF parts for their M line of auto's and will expand it as cost go down. They seem to be wanting to get their hands on Boeings CF part engineers and manufacturing employees at their CF plant there.

I see CF parts becoming more common on all vehicles as a way to greatly reduce weight.

DreamAuto in our Futre?

[hyperv6]

Word is the next CTS may get an 8-speed automatic, but probably not at launch. To me the CTS needs 8 gears, even if they have to buy it off ZF. There has to be some sort of diesel or hybrid model that posts high fuel economy as well since Infiniti, Lexus, BMW have hybrids, and Merecedes has diesel, and Audi or Jaguar may add a diesel by 2015.

The 8 speed is a given and at last time I heard it will be ready for the into of the CTS and Camaro barring any unforseen delays. No mystery here.

Same with the hybrid as GM is getting to the point that every model they make will have some kind of a hybrid version only the Vette is excluded at this point. I expect the Cadillac will be the most advanced of all the versions and it will expand down as volume increases. Call it trickle down technology.

Edited February 23, 2012 by hyperv6

[Robert Hall]

Aren't the BMW Intelligent Dynamics i products (i3, i8) supposed to have a lot of CF in them?

[hyperv6]

HyperV6, I agree with your whole listed statement of new technologies.

BMW is almost done building their new Carbon Fiber (CF) Manufacturing Plant in Moses Lake Washington. They have also built a small test track there and have stated that they will be starting with building CF parts for their M line of auto's and will expand it as cost go down. They seem to be wanting to get their hands on Boeings CF part engineers and manufacturing employees at their CF plant there.

I see CF parts becoming more common on all vehicles as a way to greatly reduce weight.

DreamAuto in our Futre?

The key to CF in the future is to cut the production time and labor. Who ever does this opens the door to the future. Teijin GM's new partner has a way of making CF Thermo plastics and they can do cycle times in under one minute. Conventional CF Thermosetting composites take much longer and in this deal time is money and the ability to do great volumes are limited.

I expect even more things will come into play.

Even with the cost savings I expect the price of these new cars to climb with the need for these more expensive materials to cut weight. At this point they have no choice.

Here is what GM put out to the media on their new partnership. http://media.gm.com/content/media/us/en/gm/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2011/Dec/1208_teijin

[G. David Felt]

HyperV6, I agree with your whole listed statement of new technologies.

BMW is almost done building their new Carbon Fiber (CF) Manufacturing Plant in Moses Lake Washington. They have also built a small test track there and have stated that they will be starting with building CF parts for their M line of auto's and will expand it as cost go down. They seem to be wanting to get their hands on Boeings CF part engineers and manufacturing employees at their CF plant there.

I see CF parts becoming more common on all vehicles as a way to greatly reduce weight.

DreamAuto in our Futre?

The key to CF in the future is to cut the production time and labor. Who ever does this opens the door to the future. Teijin GM's new partner has a way of making CF Thermo plastics and they can do cycle times in under one minute. Conventional CF Thermosetting composites take much longer and in this deal time is money and the ability to do great volumes are limited.

I expect even more things will come into play.

Even with the cost savings I expect the price of these new cars to climb with the need for these more expensive materials to cut weight. At this point they have no choice.

Here is what GM put out to the media on their new partnership. http://media.gm.com/...Dec/1208_teijin

In the short term, yes prices will rise, but long term they will drop as the technology that is going into the total CF plan DreamLiner is being used to scale down costs and speed up creation of CF parts. I think with a solid work force, we will see this happen sooner rather than later.

Check out the opening of the Moses Lake BMW CF plant.

http://www.bizjourna...rbon-fiber.html

Check out the pictures, the best are the one of the new BMW M6 bumper and the I3 Body made of CF. Really cool stuff.

http://www.torquenews.com/397/bmw-opens-carbon-fiber-plant-moses-lake-wa

Edited February 23, 2012 by dfelt

[Robert Hall]

HyperV6, I agree with your whole listed statement of new technologies.

BMW is almost done building their new Carbon Fiber (CF) Manufacturing Plant in Moses Lake Washington. They have also built a small test track there and have stated that they will be starting with building CF parts for their M line of auto's and will expand it as cost go down. They seem to be wanting to get their hands on Boeings CF part engineers and manufacturing employees at their CF plant there.

I see CF parts becoming more common on all vehicles as a way to greatly reduce weight.

DreamAuto in our Futre?

The key to CF in the future is to cut the production time and labor. Who ever does this opens the door to the future. Teijin GM's new partner has a way of making CF Thermo plastics and they can do cycle times in under one minute. Conventional CF Thermosetting composites take much longer and in this deal time is money and the ability to do great volumes are limited.

I expect even more things will come into play.

Even with the cost savings I expect the price of these new cars to climb with the need for these more expensive materials to cut weight. At this point they have no choice.

Here is what GM put out to the media on their new partnership. http://media.gm.com/...Dec/1208_teijin

In the short term, yes prices will rise, but long term they will drop as the technology that is going into the total CF plan DreamLiner is being used to scale down costs and speed up creation of CF parts. I think with a solid work force, we will see this happen sooner rather than later.

Check out the opening of the Moses Lake BMW CF plant.

http://www.bizjourna...rbon-fiber.html

Check out the pictures, the best are the one of the new BMW M6 bumper and the I3 Body made of CF. Really cool stuff.

http://www.torquenew...t-moses-lake-wa

That's pretty cool...interesting that BMW would open a plant in Washington..seems like an off-the-radar location for an auto-related plant...does carbon naturally occur there or something?

[G. David Felt]

HyperV6, I agree with your whole listed statement of new technologies.

BMW is almost done building their new Carbon Fiber (CF) Manufacturing Plant in Moses Lake Washington. They have also built a small test track there and have stated that they will be starting with building CF parts for their M line of auto's and will expand it as cost go down. They seem to be wanting to get their hands on Boeings CF part engineers and manufacturing employees at their CF plant there.

I see CF parts becoming more common on all vehicles as a way to greatly reduce weight.

DreamAuto in our Futre?

The key to CF in the future is to cut the production time and labor. Who ever does this opens the door to the future. Teijin GM's new partner has a way of making CF Thermo plastics and they can do cycle times in under one minute. Conventional CF Thermosetting composites take much longer and in this deal time is money and the ability to do great volumes are limited.

I expect even more things will come into play.

Even with the cost savings I expect the price of these new cars to climb with the need for these more expensive materials to cut weight. At this point they have no choice.

Here is what GM put out to the media on their new partnership. http://media.gm.com/...Dec/1208_teijin

In the short term, yes prices will rise, but long term they will drop as the technology that is going into the total CF plan DreamLiner is being used to scale down costs and speed up creation of CF parts. I think with a solid work force, we will see this happen sooner rather than later.

Check out the opening of the Moses Lake BMW CF plant.

http://www.bizjourna...rbon-fiber.html

Check out the pictures, the best are the one of the new BMW M6 bumper and the I3 Body made of CF. Really cool stuff.

http://www.torquenew...t-moses-lake-wa

That's pretty cool...interesting that BMW would open a plant in Washington..seems like an off-the-radar location for an auto-related plant...does carbon naturally occur there or something?

Three big sources are here,

1) Both the University of Washington and Washington University have special programs that had considerable input from Boeing on Carbon Fiber Engineering and Manufacturing. AKA Why the DreamLiner became reality

2) Reliable, cheap Hydro Power since it takes lots of power to create/manufacture CF.

3) Cheap transportation of raw materials on the rail lines going through Moses Lake.

[Robert Hall]

Three big sources are here,

1) Both the University of Washington and Washington University have special programs that had considerable input from Boeing on Carbon Fiber Engineering and Manufacturing. AKA Why the DreamLiner became reality

2) Reliable, cheap Hydro Power since it takes lots of power to create/manufacture CF.

3) Cheap transportation of raw materials on the rail lines going through Moses Lake.

Makes sense..I figured w/ Boeing in Wa there would be considerable materials engineering and mftg talent available. Sounds like BMW is working on mainstreaming CF in a big way..

Edited February 23, 2012 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[Drew Dowdell]

None of which actually matters, because the XTS is Cadillac's ES350.

I suppose GM just couldn't use the LaCrosse to compete w/ the MKS and ES, which is a more natural competitor for those models than something from Cadillac...

I don't think Buick competes with Lincoln or Lexus. There in lies part of the problem. The LaCrosse competes with the Avalon, Taurus and Maxima. A Maxima can even hit $41,000, so can a SHO. I'd say the Chrysler 300 and Genesis are competitors also on size and price point, different drive wheels, but they would still get cross shopped I think.

Since Buick is not a luxury car, Cadillac has to wear many hats, thus they need an XTS to cater to those in Florida that like pastel pearl paint jobs and seats you sink in to. I question if they really need to cater to this market though. Or if the CTS were as well executed as the E-class that it couldn't attract both those that want smooth ride and those that want performance.

The Lacrosse and Enclave are most certainly luxury vehicles. They do quiet, power, and handling better than their counterparts at Lexus

I still don't see Buick as luxury. A Nissan Maxima is $2,000 more than a LaCrosse, is that a luxruy car? The LaCrosse and Enclave are also full size vehicles, a car or SUV of that size from a luxury brand would cost far more. Enclave is the same size and seating capacity as an Escalade, yet the Escalade is $30,000 more. So if the Enclave is a true luxury SUV, then why are people buying Escaldes, or why aren't they charging $60k for an Enclave? The reason being the Envlace nor any Buick are luxury vehicles.

Cost isn't the basis of being a luxury car. The base Maxima is not a luxury car, but I can see a loaded up model being one. The Lacrosse is a modern interpretation of old school luxury. It is extremely quiet, soft and comfortable, reasonably powerful, and comes with a good amount of technology. What's been updated is the actual handling. It is no 3-series, but it isn't meant to be. It is a vehicle for people who value extra comfort over apexing turns.

The Enclave is NOT the same size as the Escalade, nor does it have the same capabilities, nor does it have as much engine.... stop making &#036;h&#33; up. You'd get laughed out of any dealership for making such a suggestion.

[smk4565]

Escalde's length/width/height is 202.5/79.0/75.9 inches. Wheelbase 116.0 inches

Enclave's length/width/height is 201.8/79.0/72.5 inches Wheelbase 118.9 inches

Enclave has 115.0 cubic feet of cargo room compared to 108.9 cubic feet of cargo room (from GM's websites)

Those two vehicles are basically the same size, the Enclave is actually larger on the inside, the Escaldae is 3 inches taller but it has a big roof rack too.

[Robert Hall]

Escalde's length/width/height is 202.5/79.0/75.9 inches. Wheelbase 116.0 inches

Enclave's length/width/height is 201.8/79.0/72.5 inches Wheelbase 118.9 inches

Enclave has 115.0 cubic feet of cargo room compared to 108.9 cubic feet of cargo room (from GM's websites)

Those two vehicles are basically the same size, the Enclave is actually larger on the inside, the Escaldae is 3 inches taller but it has a big roof rack too.

Enclave is 4780-4985lbs, Escalade, 5545-5723lbs..get a lot more bloat in a similar size w/ the Escalade...